Starlight is a Bad Girl

[CypherHoof 26,483]

1 hour ago, Will Guide said:

I was talking specifically about why Celestia didn't just use the Elements to turn Nightmare Moon back into Luna form herself. Not saying you're wrong,  it's just What you were talking about afterwards is a different matter that wasn't really the point of my reminder of a post.

I didn't want people to forget an explanation to that which is a fine example of show, don't tell.

Sure, but while you clearly have strong feelings about this, the original point I was making (in the context of if Starlight or Luna were "bad girls" ) was that Celestia shouldn't have "had to" use the Elements (however effectively or otherwise) at all - Luna effectively had a breakdown due to her loneliness and isolation, just as Starlight did, and 'tia was unable to use her own magic to stop her - just as was true for Twilight and Starlight. But unlike Twi, who used compassion and understanding to talk Starlight down, 'tia resorted to a powerful magic weapon instead.

There is something really, really wrong about that.

[BulkyBright 37]

Shh, don't give the rule 34 artists ideas for porn-titles.

[TBD 17,256]

Hmm, I like the never-ending nightmare punishment. sounds fair and effective. 

[Will Guide 21,362]

30 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

Sure, but while you clearly have strong feelings about this, the original point I was making (in the context of if Starlight or Luna were "bad girls" ) was that Celestia shouldn't have "had to" use the Elements (however effectively or otherwise) at all - Luna effectively had a breakdown due to her loneliness and isolation, just as Starlight did, and 'tia was unable to use her own magic to stop her - just as was true for Twilight and Starlight. But unlike Twi, who used compassion and understanding to talk Starlight down, 'tia resorted to a powerful magic weapon instead.

There is something really, really wrong about that.

 Nightmare Moon is a evil superpowered version of Luna while Starlight didn't have a Evil Superpowered version so I fail to see how Twilight's method of talking to Starlight would have worked for Celestia and Nightmare Moon. Luna was practically consumed by her dark side and needed more than a simple talking to to be restored. Same thing for Stygian being consumed by the Pony of Shadows. He needed a talking to AND Both the Pillars and Elements to free him from the Shadows and banish the evil to another dimension.

Different baddies are not necessarily  defeated the same way. What worked for Twilight and Starlight doesn't guarantee the way would have worked for Nightmare Moon. Celestia was even devastated having to use them and it said in the first episode, she tried to reason with her, but it didn't work.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Will Guide

[Will Guide 21,362]

I still say Starlight has been punished already.

[Goat-kun 2,528]

Rehabilitation and complete restriction. Scream at me Starfoals!

 

[MAIKUN 262]

She should have just....betrayed the Mane Six in the first place

[Thrond 3,263]

I thought we were done with this. 

I don't mind that Starlight was given a second chance. I think Twilight was correct to see that she needed guidance, and that she could be made into a functioning member of society if she just got the help she needed. My only complaint is that I think Twilight should have kept her on a shorter leash - she kept doing bad things after returning to Ponyville, as if she had no idea what she was doing was bad. So when Twilight tries to keep tabs on her and control her decisions, I'm not convinced she's wrong to do so, because when she doesn't, Starlight casts mind control spells on Twilight's friends, or causes an incident by literally bottling up her emotions, or lures bugbears to Changeling towns. Starlight, at least in seasons 6 and 7, barely understood right from wrong, and leaving her to figure it out on her own was a mistake. 

I don't see how the show could justify making her an alicorn when she's done less than Twilight's other friends, but I never really liked the idea of becoming an alicorn as a reward. 

[heavens-champion 1,905]

16 hours ago, Lord Valtasar said:

punish her? they all live simply because she decided to let them live, they couldn't defeat her

Cozy Glow could. Somehow.

[Lord Valtasar 12,693]

2 hours ago, heavens-champion said:

Cozy Glow could. Somehow.

magic didn't work at the time, it still perplexes me though since she is just a filly and physically overpowering her is also out of the table

[Lucartini 104]

Neverending nightmares because she can learn moral lessons in those nightmares and learn to be a better pony while asleep.

[Kadeda 178]

On 4/3/2019 at 11:11 PM, AlexanderThrond said:

I thought we were done with this. 

I don't mind that Starlight was given a second chance. I think Twilight was correct to see that she needed guidance, and that she could be made into a functioning member of society if she just got the help she needed. My only complaint is that I think Twilight should have kept her on a shorter leash - she kept doing bad things after returning to Ponyville, as if she had no idea what she was doing was bad. So when Twilight tries to keep tabs on her and control her decisions, I'm not convinced she's wrong to do so, because when she doesn't, Starlight casts mind control spells on Twilight's friends, or causes an incident by literally bottling up her emotions, or lures bugbears to Changeling towns. Starlight, at least in seasons 6 and 7, barely understood right from wrong, and leaving her to figure it out on her own was a mistake. 

I don't see how the show could justify making her an alicorn when she's done less than Twilight's other friends, but I never really liked the idea of becoming an alicorn as a reward. 

She wasn't doing bad things on purpose. There was no ill intent which is the most important factor in this. She's a bit of a sociopath so of course she's not going to get what is morally acceptable and what's not right away... especially if she was evil not to long ago. It wouldn't make logical sense to get how to be a good person right off the bat like that. The bottling up her emotions is just an bad decision, how many times have the main 6 made those? Bugbears to changeling towns? When did that happen?

On 4/4/2019 at 6:25 AM, Lord Valtasar said:

magic didn't work at the time, it still perplexes me though since she is just a filly and physically overpowering her is also out of the table

I don't think Starlight is all that physically capable... just magically. Cozy Glow is also an manipulating psychopath so she could have easily tricked Starlight and shoved her in sneak attack style. 

[Sepul-Coloratura 762]

There are two ways to approach this issue.

• One is the storytelling perspective, what the audience of the show feels right. Not just their mood, but a proper consequence the characters get and how the story satisfies us. How the story convinces us that the character they portray is exactly like how they want us to see it. It's not just about the good gets rewarded and the bad gets punished. Even in a tragic story where the good guy loses, these are important. It's about either a cup of water is good or evil, if put in a freezer, it must freeze. And to convince us about the block of ice in front of our faces, they should make us believe that the cup of water was put in the freezer first. Starlight Glimmer is Twilight's friend and everybody's beloved one, but we aren't convinced that she earned it. The reason people don't think Starlight deserves her place now is because they didn't have the proper experience during watching the show. Of course, we were told that she regrets, we were told she apologized. But we don't experience the actual execution of it as an audience. It was nearly three years, but we didn't get it. The worst kind of character is the one who gets away with whatever they do, the one who gets important to the story whenever the writers feel like without a certain degree of proper setup, the one who only says they are good, who says they are sorry, an emotional victim. I'm not saying Starlight is lying, but as a cold objective perspective, we don't have a proof.
• The other is to see it as an educational material. All Mane Six ponies are meant to be a role model and at least a certain degree of a good person. Starlight is a broken person. That's exactly the ticket she used to buy certain viewer's sympathy, but she isn't that of a good person. What bad about her isn't that she was mean or angry or done some horrible magics. Those are the symptoms of her problem. What wrong is that she is insecure and goes totally over the top to fix thing using her magic wrongly. The other thing about her is that she didn't choose to be good. Every action she did was selfish. Even defeating the changeling army. Friendship and intimacy is very important to her after all. For example, The Punisher takes down bad guys, but he isn't viewed as a moral person. At least not a good role model. It would be OK if Starlight is a reforming villain through a rehab or something, someone actually struggles to make a good choice. Just if she was just a secondary character with a flaw. If she lived at her old village trying to fix her past or somewhere in Ponyville. After those and when she overcomes her flaw, we would be ready to accept her as The Mane Seven just like Sunset Shimmer. But no. She already started living in a palace, she became one of the closest one of the princess, she is in power, she is one of the Mane Seven without all the things I just mentioned happening. She isn't moral enough to be a role model. And if the writers were intended to make a relatable flawed role model who was struggling despite their flaws, then they should have showed us her struggle. She already has everything. Twilight earned her crown, all the Mane Six earned their place by being a good friend and a good person, Rarity earned her franchise, Rainbow Dash earned her place in The Wonderbolts. Starlight Glimmer didn't earn it. Twilight offered her a hand because there wasn't any other option. And Starlight didn't have to choose between good and bad because there was no choices to make in the first place.

I loved Starlight Glimmer only as long as I thought they were gonna give her some development and proper reformation. But they didn't. Everything was perfect for her already without me knowing. It was three years of her, but she didn't change that much.

Edited April 7, 2019 by Sepul-Coloratura

[Thrond 3,263]

8 hours ago, Kadeda said:

She wasn't doing bad things on purpose. There was no ill intent which is the most important factor in this. She's a bit of a sociopath so of course she's not going to get what is morally acceptable and what's not right away... especially if she was evil not to long ago. It wouldn't make logical sense to get how to be a good person right off the bat like that. The bottling up her emotions is just an bad decision, how many times have the main 6 made those? Bugbears to changeling towns? When did that happen?

The mane six have all made dangerous decisions, but Starlight made them so regularly that I kept wondering why the mane six didn’t keep a closer eye on her.

The bugbear thing was in the episode with Pharynx. She thought it would help him and Thorax bond.

[Will Guide 21,362]

On 4/7/2019 at 9:21 AM, AlexanderThrond said:

 

The bugbear thing was in the episode with Pharynx. She thought it would help him and Thorax bond.

 

On 4/7/2019 at 1:02 AM, Kadeda said:

Bugbears to changeling towns? When did that happen?

That wasn't a bug bear. It was a giant mole creature.