Equestria, Anti-communism, and accidental fascism

[saum22 6]

Equestria is established as a great, wealthy nation in the show with having a monarch at its head. The economy is somewhat privatized and somewhat collectivize (not in the areas which would help the working class, however (Applejack's livelihood being threatened by the Flim Flam brothers is an example), which is something found in fascist states. Most of the show revolves around friendship and harmony, which is mostly populist rhetoric as not much change comes in the system. Then you have to realize that major government institutions having racist leaders is somehow not detestable by Celestia (The friendship board and shit), which implies Celestia is either racist or supports racist (or simply just doesn't care) politicians because they further the idea that Equestria is greater than their rivals (Changeling kingdom, etc).  

Celestia herself is a strongman, an incompetent one at that (Always having twilight do her work of protecting the kingdom, or rather empire, but without twilight has to use the elements of harmony to keep invaders out) who has a cult dedicated to her due to her strong magical ability being affiliated with godliness.

Now, you may be arguing that the show doesn't show most of what I'm saying because there are three ethnicicties (Pegasus, Unicorn, and Earth pony) but these are still the same species, pony (which is closer to an ethnicity in this show because various species represent races (the most obvious one being yaks, who represent Russians, in a very offensive manner). 

In my eyes, the three groups rather represent socioeconomic classes, with the upper nobility being Alicorns (the  lower nobility being Unicorns (rarity and canterlot being the prime examples of this) Pegasi being the middle class (Having government jobs such as weather management that are very important, but don't give amazing wages) and Earth ponies being the lower class/proletariat class (Applejack and her constant economic crisis being the obvious example of this).

This gives a disturbing conclusion there is direct racial inequality in Equestria although it is a speciostate in a world of many species of intelligent animals. 



You may now ask "How is Equestria anti-socialist/communist?", see Starlight Glimmer (Lenin but a bajillion times worse and oversimplified) and that debacle. 

Discuss further in the comments!
 

[Mirage 24,766]

If you don't like it, don't watch it.

Your comparisons are so obviously misdirected it doesn't deserve a discussion really.

I'll say this just like I say it to every other person who makes such unequivocal accusations:

If everything in the story world is fair, is equal, is just, is perfect, then nothing can happen. Such a world is so unrealistic and boring it wouldn't make it past a communist professor's desk.

Anyway, I'll entertain just one if your many accusations. There's nothing wrong with monarchies per se. You just assume it's terrible. Yet monarchies couldn't have been as bad as they are understood by modern minds, otherwise human civilization could not have advanced in any meaningful way. I'd say, given the vast history of extraordinary achievement of ancient cultures, especially those in monarchies, that such systems are just as good as anything we have today. Because essentially, all depend on those in power to be fair and just.

There is no such thing as a modern system of government or philosophy or manifesto that prevents those in power from being unjust or unfair. There is no failsafe from falling into corruption. In fact, yes, we've seen even utopian socialism and communism become horribly corrupt, haven't we?

Go read some history. You have some learning to do.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Mirage

[Thrond 3,263]

2 hours ago, saum22 said:

Then you have to realize that major government institutions having racist leaders is somehow not detestable by Celestia (The friendship board and shit), which implies Celestia is either racist or supports racist (or simply just doesn't care) politicians because they further the idea that Equestria is greater than their rivals (Changeling kingdom, etc).

The implication of that is pretty clearly that Celestia does not have absolute power. We know that she would not want to put someone like him in charge, so she must not be able to do so - a fact supported by Celestia supporting Twilight but not directly overriding Neighsay. The Equestrian system of government is not explored in sufficient detail for us to make inferences from the show. 

2 hours ago, saum22 said:

The economy is somewhat privatized and somewhat collectivize (not in the areas which would help the working class, however (Applejack's livelihood being threatened by the Flim Flam brothers is an example), which is something found in fascist states. Most of the show revolves around friendship and harmony, which is mostly populist rhetoric as not much change comes in the system.

These are also found in socialist regimes and liberal democracies. The economic system of Equestria is also not very clear, but I think the traits you notice are vague enough to mean anything.

Applejack had supply problems. She needed far more than protection from competition. 

2 hours ago, saum22 said:

Celestia herself is a strongman, an incompetent one at that (Always having twilight do her work of protecting the kingdom, or rather empire, but without twilight has to use the elements of harmony to keep invaders out) who has a cult dedicated to her due to her strong magical ability being affiliated with godliness.

I doubt she encouraged that cult. She may or may not be an absolute monarch - it's not clear. It does seem there is certainly beholden to some sort of political elite, or she wouldn't even bother attending the Grand Galloping Gala. It's also worth remembering that Celestia has almost exclusively used force against threats to national security; her government is always presented as highly benevolent towards its citizens. It does bother me that we have no evidence of a democratic system in Canterlot, though...

2 hours ago, saum22 said:

Now, you may be arguing that the show doesn't show most of what I'm saying because there are three ethnicicties (Pegasus, Unicorn, and Earth pony) but these are still the same species, pony (which is closer to an ethnicity in this show because various species represent races (the most obvious one being yaks, who represent Russians, in a very offensive manner). 

Yaks are way more different from ponies than humans with different skin colour are from each other. In any case, I'm always surprised by people who see the yaks' portrayal as offensive, because the show has always treated the yak culture with a lot of respect. They seem stereotypical, and yet their stories are often about cultural relativism. 

2 hours ago, saum22 said:

In my eyes, the three groups rather represent socioeconomic classes, with the upper nobility being Alicorns (the  lower nobility being Unicorns (rarity and canterlot being the prime examples of this) Pegasi being the middle class (Having government jobs such as weather management that are very important, but don't give amazing wages) and Earth ponies being the lower class/proletariat class (Applejack and her constant economic crisis being the obvious example of this).

I'm fairly certain we've seen a fair degree of socioeconomic diversity among all three tribes. Also I do not think Rarity is part of the nobility, or that her family was particularly wealthy before she became a celebrity. 

Clearly tensions still exist, but they must be somewhat minor, because we know that the relative harmony among ponies keeps the Windigos away. 

2 hours ago, saum22 said:

You may now ask "How is Equestria anti-socialist/communist?", see Starlight Glimmer (Lenin but a bajillion times worse and oversimplified) and that debacle. 

Starlight was an extremist who ran a dangerous cult. She isn't even representative of Marxism-Leninism, let alone socialism or communism as a whole. 

(I'm going to regret all this very shortly, aren't I?)

Edited March 9, 2020 by AlexanderThrond

[Will Guide 21,360]

So far I think @AlexanderThrond is making the stronger argument over the OP's biased argument.

Monarchy does not always mean wealth. This isn't Earth. The ways things work in Equestria doesn't work the same as on Earth. The fact the weather is manually controlled is one such strong point. If Equestria was meant to work exactly as Earth does, then it wouldn't be new and interesting to compare it to.

[Pastel Heart 6,466]

Unless it's a historical novel or meant to be a political piece in its themes (ie Fable III), I don't think there's much use in comparing a works world to real world politics. It can be fun for thought but I think this kinda discussion is a slippery slope pandoras box ^-^;;

Equestria is a very different world from our own and should just be looked at for what it is. For me, I prefer to get lost in this fantasy world of magical ponies and not think about this messed up reality we live in.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Pastel-chan
Correcting which Fable

[ShadOBabe 18,997]

27 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

I'm going to regret all this very shortly, aren't I?

You’re a brave soul. 

[Mirage 24,766]

57 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

 Starlight was an extremist who ran a dangerous cult. She isn't even representative of Marxism-Leninism, let alone socialism or communism as a whole. 

(I'm going to regret all this very shortly, aren't I?)

What made it dangerous? 

Listen, don't even try to gloss over the fact that Starlight's philosophy was obviously socialist. Equal outcome, equal 'happiness', equal cutie marks, equal strength, equal everything.

How many dystopian stories do you have to watch, because there are many, to figure out that no matter how you slice it, whether it is right wing oppression or left wing oppression, that absolute control over others to force 'acceptable behavior or else' always results in tyranny. And above that, such as in Alita: Battle Angel, happiness and fulfilment doesn't ever come from society being 'corrected', but from loving and being loved, even if your heart is the only real thing left.

[Thrond 3,263]

13 minutes ago, Mirage said:

What made it dangerous?

I'll admit that it probably didn't have much potential to present an existential threat to Equestria, but it was clearly bad for the ponies suckered in by it. 

15 minutes ago, Mirage said:

Listen, don't even try to gloss over the fact that Starlight's philosophy was obviously socialist. Equal outcome, equal 'happiness', equal cutie marks, equal strength, equal everything.

There are many forms of socialism, and the core of socialist ideologies is not necessarily authoritarianism and conformity. I do not like Soviet-style communism, but I am not interested in arguing over which political ideology is better. Sure, Starlight's ideology was a sort of socialism, but it was an extreme fringe version.

[Mirage 24,766]

17 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

 Sure, Starlight's ideology was a sort of socialism, but it was an extreme fringe version.

You're walking a mental tightwire here because I'm afraid many would disagree with you. Those who are sympathetic to socialism will obviously object to Starlight's actions because she is portrayed as the antagonist. We naturally reject the antagonist, even if it aspires to some of our own beliefs. We'll say to ourselves, 'oh, well, I'd never do it like that'...

Remember, Fluttershy didn't think there was anything going wrong. Antagonist aside, there was something compelling about a peaceful village where everyone was nice and happy. 

However, the fact of the matter is that Socialism isn't realized at all unless there is conformity. That is it's philosophical identity!

[Thrond 3,263]

11 minutes ago, Mirage said:

You're walking a mental tightwire here because I'm afraid many would disagree with you. Those who are sympathetic to socialism will obviously object to Starlight's actions because she is portrayed as the antagonist. We naturally reject the antagonist, even if it aspires to some of our own beliefs. We'll say to ourselves, 'oh, well, I'd never do it like that'...

 Remember, Fluttershy didn't think there was anything going wrong. Antagonist aside, there was something compelling about a peaceful village where everyone was nice and happy. 

 However, the fact of the matter is that Socialism isn't realized at all unless there is conformity. That is it's philosophical identity!

Okay nope this is my limit. I am not arguing over the definition of socialism. I think a lot of socialists would be very surprised to hear you claim they believe in oppression or conformity. 

Though I seriously wonder what the OP's point about anti-communism was if they're using Starlight as an example. 

 

[Pentium100 2,122]

The problem with making the pony races equal in Equestria is that they are inherently unequal. Humans of different races are almost equal with some rather small differences, but pony races are not equal with the Earth Ponies being kind-of on the bottom. They cannot fly or control the weather (there is a spell or flying and there most likely is a spell for weather control) and do not have general-purpose magic. Their better physical abilities (though Applejack was about equal with Rainbow Dash, so...) and the ability to grow plants better can probably be replaced by unicorn spells too. Or pegasus ponies could just grow plants even if they are less efficient. On the other hand, with no unicorns or alicorns there would be nobody to move the sun and the remaining ponies would die. In the show I think it is said that the ponies are happy where they are in society, but that does not do away with the inequality.

This is similar to the telepaths in Babylon 5. Whatever you do, someone is going to feel like having the short end of the stick.

[ShadOBabe 18,997]

9 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

Though I seriously wonder what the OP's point about anti-communism was if they're using Starlight as an example. 

From what I interpreted from the OP’s post, they think Starlight is communist/socialist, and since she was (rightly) treated as a villain, that I means Equestria is anti-communist/socialist.

I hold no love for communism/socialism, but I think there’s a slightly more immediate issue of her assaulting, kidnapping, and holding against their will five national heroes and a political figure.

[Thrond 3,263]

I should clarify that what I mean is Starlight's ideology is extreme enough that opposing it doesn't necessarily mean opposing all socialism. Most left-wing ideologies have never appeared in the show.  

3 minutes ago, ShadOBabe said:

From what I interpreted from the OP’s post, they think Starlight is communist/socialist, and since she was (rightly) treated as a villain, that I means Equestria is anti-communist/socialist.

I feel like the OP is trying to criticize Equestria's politics and economy in some way but I don't see how being opposed to Starlight's ideology is a bad thing. 

[ShadOBabe 18,997]

13 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

I feel like the OP is trying to criticize Equestria's politics and economy in some way but I don't see how being opposed to Starlight's ideology is a bad thing. 

Yeah... Maybe they like socialism and/or communism, and see Starlight as an offensive portrayal?

But if that’s the case, that has nothing to do with Equestria. That’s the viewpoint of the real-world creators they take issue with.

In-universe, Starlight was inarguably a malicious manipulator and then a straight-up criminal, no matter what ideology she did or didn’t hold.

Edited March 9, 2020 by ShadOBabe
Typo!

[Dark Qiviut 22,396]

2 hours ago, Mirage said:

What made it dangerous? 

Her cult had a very totalitarian system that brainwashed folks into it and used dark magic — the pulsing equal sign — to repress their talent, optimism, and free will. Starlight forced them live in a false sense of equality while she lavished herself up and manipulated anyone who dared to question her authority or disagree with others.

 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Dark Qiviut

[Goat-kun 2,527]

Blind, lost, wandering the luminous emptiness you call reality.

 

It's a theocracy shrouded in the sparkling fabric of mystique. Celestia, Twilight, Discord, that powerful unicorn with a tragic past over there, none can contend with the will of the one true ruler of Equestria.

[saum22 6]

On 3/8/2020 at 9:06 PM, Mirage said:

If you don't like it, don't watch it.

Your comparisons are so obviously misdirected it doesn't deserve a discussion really.

I'll say this just like I say it to every other person who makes such unequivocal accusations:

If everything in the story world is fair, is equal, is just, is perfect, then nothing can happen. Such a world is so unrealistic and boring it wouldn't make it past a communist professor's desk.

Anyway, I'll entertain just one if your many accusations. There's nothing wrong with monarchies per se. You just assume it's terrible. Yet monarchies couldn't have been as bad as they are understood by modern minds, otherwise human civilization could not have advanced in any meaningful way. I'd say, given the vast history of extraordinary achievement of ancient cultures, especially those in monarchies, that such systems are just as good as anything we have today. Because essentially, all depend on those in power to be fair and just.

There is no such thing as a modern system of government or philosophy or manifesto that prevents those in power from being unjust or unfair. There is no failsafe from falling into corruption. In fact, yes, we've seen even utopian socialism and communism become horribly corrupt, haven't we?

Go read some history. You have some learning to do.

I understand. Sorry.

On 3/9/2020 at 12:55 AM, ShadOBabe said:

From what I interpreted from the OP’s post, they think Starlight is communist/socialist, and since she was (rightly) treated as a villain, that I means Equestria is anti-communist/socialist.

I hold no love for communism/socialism, but I think there’s a slightly more immediate issue of her assaulting, kidnapping, and holding against their will five national heroes and a political figure.

Yea. Proabbably should have thought things through before saying these things. Honestly, this post reminds me of Starlight's mode of thinking in beginning of her known appearances. 

[RDDash 19,173]

Starlight Glimmer had been living her life in the past. What's equality? Equal right for ponies to succeed in life based on their special talents? Equestria didn't suppress that.

Edited March 25, 2020 by R.D.Dash

[BornAgainBrony 2,397]

On 3/8/2020 at 7:51 PM, saum22 said:

 Then you have to realize that major government institutions having racist leaders is somehow not detestable by Celestia (The friendship board and shit), which implies Celestia is either racist or supports racist (or simply just doesn't care) politicians because they further the idea that Equestria is greater than their rivals (Changeling kingdom, etc). 

Ehh... what was this about exactly? The Mane 6 during the Cutie Map campaign were racist? What are you referring to? Twilight's early distrust of Thorax? I mean, I guess you could call that racism. In the same vein that you might classify as racism, distrust of a defecting Russian spy at the height of the cold war?

[Thrond 3,263]

13 minutes ago, BornAgainBrony said:

Ehh... what was this about exactly? The Mane 6 during the Cutie Map campaign were racist? What are you referring to? Twilight's early distrust of Thorax? I mean, I guess you could call that racism. In the same vein that you might classify as racism, distrust of a defecting Russian spy at the height of the cold war?

That would have to be about Neighsay and his hatred of non-ponies.

[Rebel the Wolfgirl 5,601]

...As a libertarian socialist who hates Marxist-Leninism, I hereby apologize on this fellow's behalf.  

Seriously, though, are you really trying to insert far left wing politics into MLP? Because in trying to portray Equestria as a racist, anti-socialist absolute monarchy that tries to vilify Celestia and  the values she (and the show itself) stand for, you make your intended message incredibly biased and fall apart under its own anti-logic.

Edited March 25, 2020 by Renegade the Unicorn

[BornAgainBrony 2,397]

15 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

That would have to be about Neighsay and his hatred of non-ponies.

Ah, OK. Guess the "friendship board" threw me into thinking it was targeted at Harmony's critters.

Regardless though/ Yeh, I'd have to look at the episode again, but I'm pretty sure the EEA was an independent oversight committee of sorts, unregulated by the state, which is why Twilight had no legal power to override them.

More on point with the OP, I think we've got enough evidence that Equestria is not a pure monarchy by any stretch, and is far more flexible than the scary tyrants that come to mind for most when they think of such a governing system. One need look no further than Twlight's "test" in the Crystal Empire. Her willingness to put others above herself. We should all be so lucky to have leaders with that kind of altruism, regardless of whether they rose to power through election or blood.

[Sepul-Coloratura 762]

I think Celestia being incompetent so many times was not thought out, and it was a mistake happened over time. One or two times of Celestia's fail might have raised the stakes, but doing it every season had an unwanted effect on the character.

Chancellor Neighsay being in a high position might be the proof of the opposite of what you said. If Celestia decided everything all the way she wanted, of course the government system would be near perfect and everybody in charge would be the nicest people. But maybe because Celestia lets ponies choose and let them have mistakes, so they voted for Neighsay and Celestia respected the public's decision. (and letting Twilight act against him might be a better strategy, more than her majesty doing it herself.)

The three pony races I think gives the show a mythical quality (and also they are reminiscent of many actual mythologies.) Unicorns represent divinity (religion), Pegasus ponies represent the control of weather (technology) and the military, and it helps what Earth ponies represent, agriculture and the substructure.

Getting a twisted conclusion out of the show and calling Celestia a tyrant might be the lowest hanging fruit in the realm of MLP interpretation. It is not that special or interesting to come with that conclusion it honestly. There was a far more direct fascist or communist dictatorship outside of Equestria's reach, and it was Starlight Glimmer's town. Racism? You wanted it and you have it. It's Chancellor Neighsay, the strawman.

[Eniac 402]

So I am in no way qualified to talk about political systems, but I can see some flaws in arguments.

Firstly in terms of wealth I do not remember seeing money being explicitly transfered throughout the film. Of course the ponies do experience a high level of living in canterlot and one of good standing in ponyville. There are obviously more wealthy ponies, as we have canterlot ponies, so there must be some form of money and wealth. Now clearly we don't see money exchange or how the economic system works becuase it is a kids show but you can't necessarily talk about the economic system when we don't know exactly how it works.

Along with the idea of it being a show is how Celestia seems to always flounder under pressure. Firstly, we don't get a day by day experience of Equestria there could be many more porblems which Celestia deals with or prevents before any disaster occurs. Granted it seems that she is powerless to stop certain enemies but again these could possibly be weaker enemies which she allows Twilight to defend to develop her. In essence we are focused on Twilight's development not Celestia so of course Twilight is going to be the star. And in terms of the single character council, as mentioned by @Sepul-Coloratura disproves your monarchy statement.

Staying on the topic of it being a series I agree with @Mirage with the fact that a perfect system is well perfect. There is no room for improvement or tension so there must be issues. However I don't think this is the point of the post so I won't go further. But I would like to point out something in their response, the fact of no failsafe to their being unjust leaders is true (mainly because I personally believe morality is subjective) but the importance of a democratic system is that unjustice is in theory chosen by the populous so they in theory can't complain. Clearly the ultimate would be everyone leads everyone as then there is no leader who can be unjust, but communism never works like that as you always have a ring leader.

Personally given the evidence I don't think the Equestria is anti-socialist. The example of Starlight Glimmer was not about it being socialist it was the fact that the ponies didn't agree with it anymore, they were being inprisoned and weren't happy or in harmony with how the acted, hence the need for change. As stated by @Mirage Fluttershy didn't see anything wrong with the apparent happiness or way of life, but still helped when it became clear that the ponies weren't happy. But I don't think the 'regime' was particularly dangerous beyond that @AlexanderThrond.

But also a reply to Alexandar I think that Celestia does have absolute power but chooses or has chosen to abstain from that in the knowledge that it will improve Equestria, also knowing that it can never be perfect.

But I do question some of the practices in Equestria. But I think this is mainly becuase we focus on the mane 6 so the view could be tinted in terms of how important they are. I agree with@Pastel Heart  in the fact that it is a cartoon, but I think there is still great fun with nit picking at an idea and seeing how it stands. Maybe figuring out how it is actually stronger than intially perceived which I think we have done so far.

Also sorry for @ing anybody that I did. I didn't want to have to quote your whole texts but really I am interested in any response you may have.

 

[Thrond 3,263]

25 minutes ago, Eniac said:

But I don't think the 'regime' was particularly dangerous beyond that @AlexanderThrond.

Well, that's mostly what I meant, though let's not forget that Starlight kidnapped and imprisoned the mane six. 

26 minutes ago, Eniac said:

 But also a reply to Alexandar I think that Celestia does have absolute power but chooses or has chosen to abstain from that in the knowledge that it will improve Equestria, also knowing that it can never be perfect.

If she had authority over education in Equestria, she would have gotten rid of Neighsay a long time ago, surely.