Big McIntosh and His Gender Identity

[StoryTail 103]

Now, this is a bit of a musing of mine and a slight head-canon, but I've been thinking of Big Mac's gender identity and masculinity.

 

Having watched Brotherhooves Social a second time, I've thought about how Hasbro made previous jokes on such a manly stallion having some hidden feminine qualities.

 

The furthest I can recall was in "Lesson Zero", where the creators make a joke that Big Mac was genuinely in love with Twilight Sparkle's doll, Smarty Pants, even after the love spell cast on the doll was removed.  After the love spell chaos ended, you could see him snatch the doll away after looking to see nobody was around and neigh with joy before running off with it.  The next time I recall a joke played on Mac's masculinity is in "Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep?"  He transforms into a magical girl-esque, princess-like alicorn.  This, I think, was mostly influenced by the MLP community's joke of a Princess Big Mac, especially by one particular comic I know, and Hasbro just decided to make it canon.  Nevertheless, I think this ended up contributing to his identity, even as a joke.

 

And then finally, there's the "Botherhooves Social", where Big Mac comes up with the brilliant idea to be able to participate in the Sisterhooves Social by disguising himself as Apple Blossom's female cousin, Orchard Blossom.  Now, you could say that he was just trying to put on a good and convincing show so others don't suspect him to be male, but I like to think it was a bit deeper than that.  From viewing the episode, it didn't feel Big Mac was just acting, it felt like he was thoroughly enjoying being female a bit too much.  To me, Orchard Blossom wasn't just a character, but more of an alter ego that he's wanted to project.  And now that he was disguised as female, thanks to his "brilliant" plan, he took full advantage of this just seeming to be a plan with no ulterior motives to fully act female without being judged.

 

I wouldn't say that Big Mac is transsexual, but I feel like, with how Hasbro presented him, he's just a bit gender fluid and wishes to be female sometimes, or he's a drag queen.  At the very least, he's a masculine guy that's also very in touch with his feminine side.

 

Anyway, that's just a bit of a musing.  Feel free to contribute some of your thoughts on this!  I do enjoy this humor with Big Mac, but I can't help but see it as also part of his character.

 

Now, all I have left to say is that I hope to see more Orchard Blossom, lol!

 

Edit:  Shoot!  I accidentally posted in the wrong forum, but hopefully it'll get moved!  Is this the right section?

Edited April 28, 2016 by StoryTail

[JonasDarkmane 19,785]

@@StoryTail

Hey there  

 

I have moved your topic over to the right section  

[Ziggy + Angel + Rain 11,302]

I've never been all that fond of Big Mac or FIM stallions in general, but the moments you referred to are THE most interesting ones I feel that Big Mac has had in the series.  "Princess Big Mac" was both funny and immediately added more to the guy than most stallions get on the show.  Hell, all three of the things you listed (affectionate behavior involving a plush, in-dream magical girl transformation, and cross-dressing) make it easier for ME to relate to him.  For...  Essentially the same reasons. x3

[Concerned Bystander 2,902]

It is the beauty of cartoons, indeed of fiction in general, that it allows us to project the characteristics that we want to see into the medium.  I'm not suggesting that your individual take on Big Mac is wrong, just a fictional world usually has enough ambiguity within it to find what you want to find.

 

When I watch 'Brotherhooves social', what I see is that Big Mac, who we know was missing spending time with Apple Bloom, saw an opportunity to renew his relationship with her, and the fact that he dressed up as a female showed that he was willing to go to any length required to not only prevent his little sister from being disappointed by not being able to take part in the Sisterhooves social, but also to finally be able to spend some quality time with her.  I don't personally feel that his sensitive side, and desire to bond with his sister should be seen as a feminine quality, but that is unfortunately symptomatic of the world we live in.

 

But going back to projection, this is coming from someone who works away from home a lot, and I miss my daughter a great deal while I am away.  Heck, it was because of her that I got into MLP in the first place, so I certainly sympathise with Big Mac doing something 'unmanly' in order to bond with someone important.

 

As for 'Do princesses dream of magic sheep', given the chance, who wouldn't want to become a virtual demi-god given the chance?

Edited April 28, 2016 by Concerned Bystander

[Ziggy + Angel + Rain 11,302]

 

 

When I watch 'Brotherhooves social', what I see is that Big Mac, who we know was missing spending time with Apple Bloom, saw an opportunity to renew his relationship with her, and the fact that he dressed up as a female showed that he was willing to go to any length required to not only prevent his little sister from being disappointed by not being able to take part in the Sisterhooves social, but also to finally be able to spend some quality time with her.

Annnnd, he'd always secretly wanted to dress as a female, and this was precisely the chance - and excuse - he'd been waiting for.  He gets to say, "Nope; was only doin' it for mah liddle sister."

[Riganthor 484]

I dont think big mac is genderfluid/ trans, guys can love dolls, guys can have fantasies of transforming into female demi-gods without being trans and sisterhood social, it showed more of how great of a brother big mac is.

[Concerned Bystander 2,902]

 

 

Annnnd, he'd always secretly wanted to dress as a female, and this was precisely the chance - and excuse - he'd been waiting for. He gets to say, "Nope; was only doin' it for mah liddle sister."

 

 

 

I dont think big mac is genderfluid/ trans, guys can love dolls, guys can have fantasies of transforming into female demi-gods without being trans and sisterhood social, it showed more of how great of a brother big mac is.

 

These both sum up my point exactly.  It's all about projection, two people will see it two different ways, and unless explicitly stated otherwise, neither of them are wrong.  People see what they want to see.

[Wind Chaser 4,768]

The way I see it, Big Mac is only doing the same thing Mulan did. The patterns of his behavior in "Magic Sheep" and "Brotherhooves Social" portray some sort of need to be a hero, and since virtually all of Equestria's heroes are female, it only makes sense that he'd make himself feminine as if he saw that as a requirement.

[Nekon 21]

That episode was a parody of http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107614/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1, wasn't it?

[Luminance 2,186]

His love to bond and spend time with Applebloom didn't prevented him from becoming Orchard Blossom and that's only what a true big brother would do. Sisterhooves Social was a way to fully develop Big Mac as a character who's also very likable and sweet.

[cider float 2,537]

Due to the fear of angry parents, his special identity is kept subtle and I think DHX studios did a brilliant job of it. MLP is just not the cartoon to make that too open. Steven Universe takes it a bit too out in the open and got fire under the butt for that.

 

I thought of him a lot like Caitlyn Jenner.

Edited April 28, 2016 by cider float

[Ziggy + Angel + Rain 11,302]

 

 

guys can have fantasies of transforming into female demi-gods

I do wonder, though, just how commonplace that fantasy is. xD

[sweetolebob18 728]

The wig & make up could have belonged to almost any female relative.  But, you have to ask yourself "Where did he get a dress & shoes that fit him?"  I mean, he is pretty big, it seems odd he "just happened" to have them around.

[cider float 2,537]

The wig & make up could have belonged to almost any female relative.  But, you have to ask yourself "Where did he get a dress & shoes that fit him?"  I mean, he is pretty big, it seems odd he "just happened" to have them around.

Heh that's good observation.

[Eloquence 2,076]

The wig & make up could have belonged to almost any female relative.  But, you have to ask yourself "Where did he get a dress & shoes that fit him?"  I mean, he is pretty big, it seems odd he "just happened" to have them around.

 

This was something I noticed too. Big Mac is, well, big. No one else's clothing would fit him, so he'd have to have a dress and shoes of his own, and he couldn't have just gone out and gotten the dress because the only dressmaker in town (Rarity) wasn't around that day. The wig and make up could hypothetically have already been there, but it would be odd if there just happened to be a wig in his color lying around, and his make-up seemed much too well-applied for that to have been his first time putting it on. Same goes with his more feminine voice really, seems like that'd be hard to pull off so well without practice.

 

What I found especially interesting though, was how much more talkative Orchard Blossom was. Big Mac hardly ever says a word, but Orchard Blossom was very chatty with everyone, almost as if Big Mac is more comfortable being Orchard Blossom. At the very least, I think Orchard Blossom was not a spur of the moment invention, and is instead a persona for Big Mac that he is able to gain confidence from. I also wouldn't rule out the possibility that Big Mac is transgender or gender-fluid.

 

I think it is ultimately unlikely that the show will explore this part of Big Mac, as unfortunately there is still many a cisgender parent who doesn't want their children to be free to explore their own gender identities and possibly come to conclusions that differ from their own (yeah, calling it what it is here), but at least we have fan content right?

[The Nth Doctor 662]

Big Mac is Big Mac; he's comfortable being himself and it would be nice if everyone else was like him

[BrawnyCharger 511]

Big Mac only wants to be a hero just like Applejack, which is why he transformed into an alicorn in the dream episode. And he became Orchard Blossom to participate in the Sisterhooves Social because he assumed it was a females only thing.

 

I don't think this has anything to do with feminism or anything like that. I think it's has everything to do with him wanting to be a hero just as much if not more so than Applejack. So far those are the first two steps to developing Big Macintosh and helping him become the hero he desires to be. Hopefully he's going to receive more episodes focusing on that development this season.

[Phanact 333]

Tbh Big Mac is probably just like one of those hunk guys who isn't secure in his femininity so he has to pretend hes super manly

[Steel Accord 6,660]

 

 

At the very least, he's a masculine guy that's also very in touch with his feminine side.

 

I think that's the big thing here. Mac doesn't seem at all unhappy with his gender, he's just comfortable letting his feminine qualities. I mean I'm sure most of us can relate. 

[TheSqueelyOne 157]

Sad to say, it'll probably always be up to interpretation. I just don't think MLP has the guts to outright give us a trans character. Big Mac having "feminine" interests (dolls and dresses shouldn't be gender-exclusive, but they're seen that way) is probably meant as more of a joke than anything. Has there ever been a time when it wasn't played for laughs?

Still though, it certainly is interesting, and I'll probably headcanon Big Mac as genderfluid. Bit of a shame we'll never get any sort of confirmation.

[Vixor 80]

I think as others have said here, this stuff is mostly left up to viewer interpretation. I don't really think there's any deep implications there, other than Big Mac wanting to help and spend time with his little sister, but I do like the idea of him being in touch with his 'feminine' side, though I don't necessarily think that translates to outright crossdressing or anything. Not something I've thought much about, though, and there are potentially different things you guys could be meaning by that, so I'll hold off on saying anything concrete, if that's the right way to put it.

 

The way I see it, Big Mac is only doing the same thing Mulan did. The patterns of his behavior in "Magic Sheep" and "Brotherhooves Social" portray some sort of need to be a hero, and since virtually all of Equestria's heroes are female, it only makes sense that he'd make himself feminine as if he saw that as a requirement.

 

There's no evidence that "all of Equestria's heroes are female" or anything of that sort. The bottom line here is that the show is very focused on the exploits and lives of it's protagonists, like most other shows, and those protagonists happen to be female. The shows focus is limited, and because the main characters are primarily female, it it biased towards showing them doing things, mundane and at some points heroic, however this does NOT translate into an in-universe bias of any sort. There's a lot to Equestria we don't see, not to mention there are already male heroes shown and mentioned in the show (and comics, if you care about those), to varying degrees, even if the focus isn't on them, or any other side characters of any gender for that matter. And there isn't exactly an abundance of heroes of either gender shown onscreen in the show in the first place, outside of the main cast and princesses/princes. 

 

Bottom line, only conclusion that can be fairly reached is that most of the shows protagonists/main cast are female, and a show is naturally going to focus on those protagonists and their lives.

 

The comparison to Mulan is nonsense because Mulan lived in a very repressive (for both genders, really, there were strict expectations for both women AND men that were wholly unfair) society/time period where males were dominant and females were expected to be subservient (again though, not a nice place for the average person of either gender, harsh and strict expectations abound). This is absolutely not even remotely the case for Equestria though, and anyone who thinks otherwise is just downright delusional, as it's pretty clear that they have pretty perfect gender-equality, both de-jure and de-facto, there is no indication that either gender is advantaged or dominant, and there are no real gender roles, so people are treated as individuals, and both genders have been portrayed as equally capable. It's pretty clear that they are gender-egalitarian.

 

The show focuses more on female characters screentime-wise because of it's target audience. Do not mistake this for some delusion of the show portraying a society where either gender is dominant or advantaged, as that is a pure falsehood. We've had a full five and counting seasons to observe Equestria, and it's pretty clear that there is no gender-inequality of any sort.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Vixor

[Wind Chaser 4,768]

I think as others have said here, this stuff is mostly left up to viewer interpretation. I don't really think there's any deep implications there, other than Big Mac wanting to help and spend time with his little sister, but I do like the idea of him being in touch with his 'feminine' side, though I don't necessarily think that translates to outright crossdressing or anything. Not something I've thought much about, though, and there are potentially different things you guys could be meaning by that, so I'll hold off on saying anything concrete, if that's the right way to put it.

 

 

There's no evidence that "all of Equestria's heroes are female" or anything of that sort. The bottom line here is that the show is very focused on the exploits and lives of it's protagonists, like most other shows, and those protagonists happen to be female. The shows focus is limited, and because the main characters are primarily female, it it biased towards showing them doing things, mundane and at some points heroic, however this does NOT translate into an in-universe bias of any sort. There's a lot to Equestria we don't see, not to mention there are already male heroes shown and mentioned in the show (and comics, if you care about those), to varying degrees, even if the focus isn't on them, or any other side characters of any gender for that matter. And there isn't exactly an abundance of heroes of either gender shown onscreen in the show in the first place, outside of the main cast and princesses/princes.

 

Bottom line, only conclusion that can be fairly reached is that most of the shows protagonists/main cast are female, and a show is naturally going to focus on those protagonists and their lives.

 

The comparison to Mulan is nonsense because Mulan lived in a very repressive (for both genders, really, there were strict expectations for both women AND men that were wholly unfair) society/time period where males were dominant and females were expected to be subservient (again though, not a nice place for the average person of either gender, harsh and strict expectations abound). This is absolutely not even remotely the case for Equestria though, and anyone who thinks otherwise is just downright delusional, as it's pretty clear that they have pretty perfect gender-equality, both de-jure and de-facto, there is no indication that either gender is advantaged or dominant, and there are no real gender roles, so people are treated as individuals, and both genders have been portrayed as equally capable. It's pretty clear that they are gender-egalitarian.

 

The show focuses more on female characters screentime-wise because of it's target audience. Do not mistake this for some delusion of the show portraying a society where either gender is dominant or advantaged, as that is a pure falsehood. We've had a full five and counting seasons to observe Equestria, and it's pretty clear that there is no gender-inequality of any sort.

I'm just bringing cold hard facts. Except for Starswirl the Bearded (offscreen, only mentioned), Spike, Sunburst, Shining Armor and two of the four from "The Cutie Map", almost every other hero depicted in the show has been female, including the Mane 6 ("Elements of Harmony", "Rainbow Power", saviors of Equestria) and all of the alicorns. That isn't a necessarily a good or bad thing or something I'm trying to read into the show, it's a fact and you'd be doing yourself a great disservice to ignore it. All of the events mentioned by the show are arguably some of the most important to happen in Equestria, thus it matters more than the things we don't see, because it hasn't been written yet and probably wasn't important enough to even mention. Any denial of that is driven purely by unproven speculation.

 

While you're right to point out my Mulan comparison as flawed since Mulan did it out of need and Big Mac did it out of some sort of preference, the underlying culture of Equestria and its propensity towards more heroes being females may be some sort of subconscious influence on Big Mac. It's sort of similar to how a lot of girls looked up to male heroic characters before there was any sort of abundance of female heroines in media. It may be flawed logic on his own part that Big Mac puts remaking his image as feminine as a part of becoming better liked or a hero in the eyes of his friends or family, but he has so many female role models in his life to influence him that it would be impossible to think of him not being influenced by them in one way or another. There is no way you can deny that; he looks up to them, so why would he not want to be more like them?

 

One last thing, save me the BS about gender equality, because true gender equality is objectively impossible. Gender roles are not just social constructs, they're rooted in science. This includes not just two genders but the whole spectrum as well. There is such a thing as equality under the law, but beyond that you're going to find a gender bias in anything. It would be blindly idealistic to think that absolute equality is even achievable. Even the most egalitarian TV shows have a slant one way or the other when you're through counting them.

Edited May 1, 2016 by Wind Chaser

[Vixor 80]

I'm just bringing cold hard facts. Except for Starswirl the Bearded (offscreen, only mentioned), Spike, Sunburst, Shining Armor and two of the four from "The Cutie Map", almost every other hero depicted in the show has been female, including the Mane 6 ("Elements of Harmony", "Rainbow Power", saviors of Equestria) and all of the alicorns. That isn't a necessarily a good or bad thing or something I'm trying to read into the show, it's a fact and you'd be doing yourself a great disservice to ignore it. All of the events mentioned by the show are arguably some of the most important to happen in Equestria, thus it matters more than the things we don't see, because it hasn't been written yet and probably wasn't important enough to even mention.

 

While you're right to point out my Mulan comparison as flawed since Mulan did it out of need and Big Mac did it out of some sort of preference, the underlying culture of Equestria and its propensity towards more heroes being females may be some sort of subconscious influence on Big Mac. It's sort of similar to how a lot of girls looked up to male heroic characters before there was any sort of abundance of female heroines in media. It may be flawed logic on his own part that Big Mac puts remaking his image as feminine as a part of becoming better liked or a hero in the eyes of his friends or family, but he has so many female role models in his life to influence him that it would be impossible to think of him not being influenced by them in one way or another. There is no way you can deny that.

 

One last thing, save me the BS about gender equality, because true gender equality is objectively impossible. Gender roles are not just social constructs, they're rooted in science. This includes not just two genders but the whole spectrum as well. There is such a thing as equality under the law, but beyond that you're going to find a gender bias in anything. It would be blindly idealistic to think that absolute equality is even achievable. Even the most egalitarian TV shows have a slant one way or the other when you're through counting them.

 

The facts are that the shows scope is limited and it uses that limited scope to focus on the Mane 7, and a few other characters like the CMC. That certainly doesn't mean that there isn't a world of stuff to be found outside of that scope. And yes, the things we see are important to Equestria, but it's ignorant to say they are the only important things, considering this is a whole fictional country we're talking about; important to the immediate narrative/plot of the show determines what we see and what we don't. The window through which we see Equestria is extremely limited and focused on certain things. We don't see much of politics, our exposure to towns other than Ponyville has been limited outside of a few others, though that has been picking up in recent seasons, with the theme of this one being more into exploring Equestria. And the fact that the show focuses it's screentime on it's mostly female main cast does not in any way imply some sort of inequality or dominance, of any sort.

 

You also totally ignored the fact that the show doesn't feature many heroes of either gender, as the Mane 7, CMC, and occasionally others do the bulk of the things we've seen directly onscreen, both mundane AND heroic (doesn't mean they are the only things that do those things though, just that the show is focused on them the most). Either way, the focus of the show is extremely relevant to consider, and the way you just seemingly brush it off is nonsense. The Mane 7 and CMC receive the bulk of the focus, and other characters of either gender receive much less screentime. Lot's of things obviously happen offscreen. 

 

The current alicorns being female means you can argue that they have a matriarchy at the top of their government, however, this is just a technicality, no really different than the UK, so it's pretty meaningless. Also, there's no reason whatsoever to believe that gender is relevant to who can become one, as it's a merit based position, based on who is a good and benevolent leader, so gender is totally irrelevant. To restrict it on something as irrelevant as gender would destroy their legitimacy. Also, it's pretty clear that Starswirl almost become one, but Celestia said he didn't understand friendship. Now, all of this doesn't necessarily mean I expect to see a male alicorn in the show itself, simply because of Hasbro's marketing department being so focused on princesses, but there's no reason to assume gender discrimination there, and until we do see one, it is obviously correct to assume that one could exist, because it's just not somewhere where gender is relevant. Maybe the comics will do it one day with Shining Armor, as he's the obvious candidate, but alas the cartoon doesn't give him enough screentime to give that proper justice, as it would likely require a dedicated two-parter.

 

And as I already mentioned, the underlying culture of Equestria is quite clearly gender-egalitarian, if you can't see that, you are just delusional, or maybe you just don't watch the show closely enough. Again, we've had a full five and counting seasons to observe this stuff, and there is no evidence whatsoever of a culture, society, economy, or ANYTHING that favors one gender or otherwise advantages them. We've seen ponies of both genders in all walks of life, including socially and economically influential positions. Again, pretty clear that there is de-jure (by law) and de-facto (in reality) gender equality there, full stop. There's no evidence of one gender being dominant, seen as superior, or anything.

 

As for your last paragraph, that's quite the controversial statement you've got there, and I intend to point out that you are, in fact, wrong. Full egalitarianism with gender IS possible, and part of that means treating people as individuals, and not generalizing or assuming things, among many other things and considerations that I don't particularly have the time or will to try and explain. And there are some components to biology in gender, sure, but these arise as averages in large populations (and these are often overstated, even), and there is no such thing as a trait or personality type or whatever that is exclusively male or female. Gender roles serve no purpose other than society attempting to force it's will on the individual in an attempt to coerce them into conforming. In reality, people ARE indeed individuals, even if certain traits are somewhat more likely for certain population groups. Gender roles are not justified, and should be eliminated because there are plenty of people who simply don't fit those rigid views, to varying extents. I should know, because I absolutely hate many of the things about the traditional 'male gender-role' and I want nothing to do with those aspects.

 

And no, TV shows often have their screentime unevenly divided by gender, but this does not in any way imply that they are portraying a fictional world where one gender is advantaged, and it would be silly to think otherwise. And I find it funny you'd tolerate MLP with that kind of stance, given that one of it's goals at conception was to strike down the gender roles BS and promote gender-egalitarianism. Equestria clearly has no enforced gender roles, and both genders in MLP have been portrayed as equally capable. Even with just physical strength, the mares and stallions seem pretty darn even compared to humans, given what we've seen.

Edited May 1, 2016 by Vixor

[Wind Chaser 4,768]

The facts are that the shows scope is limited and it uses that limited scope to focus on the Mane 7, and a few other characters like the CMC. That certainly doesn't mean that there isn't a world of stuff to be found outside of that scope. And yes, the things we see are important to Equestria, but it's ignorant to say they are the only important things, considering this is a whole fictional country we're talking about; important to the immediate narrative/plot of the show determines what we see and what we don't. The window through which we see Equestria is extremely limited and focused on certain things. We don't see much of politics, our exposure to towns other than Ponyville has been limited outside of a few others, though that has been picking up in recent seasons, with the theme of this one being more into exploring Equestria. And the fact that the show focuses it's screentime on it's mostly female main cast does not in any way imply some sort of inequality or dominance, of any sort.

 

You also totally ignored the fact that the show doesn't feature many heroes of either gender, as the Mane 7, CMC, and occasionally others do the bulk of the things we've seen directly onscreen, both mundane AND heroic (doesn't mean they are the only things that do those things though, just that the show is focused on them the most). Either way, the focus of the show is extremely relevant to consider, and the way you just seemingly brush it off is nonsense. The Mane 7 and CMC receive the bulk of the focus, and other characters of either gender receive much less screentime. Lot's of things obviously happen offscreen.

 

The current alicorns being female means you can argue that they have a matriarchy at the top of their government, however, this is just a technicality, no really different than the UK, so it's pretty meaningless. Also, there's no reason whatsoever to believe that gender is relevant to who can become one, as it's a merit based position, based on who is a good and benevolent leader, so gender is totally irrelevant. To restrict it on something as irrelevant as gender would destroy their legitimacy. Also, it's pretty clear that Starswirl almost become one, but Celestia said he didn't understand friendship. Now, all of this doesn't necessarily mean I expect to see a male alicorn in the show itself, simply because of Hasbro's marketing department being so focused on princesses, but there's no reason to assume gender discrimination there, and until we do see one, it is obviously correct to assume that one could exist, because it's just not somewhere where gender is relevant. Maybe the comics will do it one day with Shining Armor, as he's the obvious candidate, but alas the cartoon doesn't give him enough screentime to give that proper justice, as it would likely require a dedicated two-parter.

 

And as I already mentioned, the underlying culture of Equestria is quite clearly gender-egalitarian, if you can't see that, you are just delusional, or maybe you just don't watch the show closely enough. Again, we've had a full five and counting seasons to observe this stuff, and there is no evidence whatsoever of a culture, society, economy, or ANYTHING that favors one gender or otherwise advantages them. We've seen ponies of both genders in all walks of life, including socially and economically influential positions. Again, pretty clear that there is de-jure (by law) and de-facto (in reality) gender equality there, full stop. There's no evidence of one gender being dominant, seen as superior, or anything.

 

As for your last paragraph, that's quite the controversial statement you've got there, and I intend to point out that you are, in fact, wrong. Full egalitarianism with gender IS possible, and part of that means treating people as individuals, and not generalizing or assuming things, among many other things and considerations that I don't particularly have the time or will to try and explain. And there are some components to biology in gender, sure, but these arise as averages in large populations (and these are often overstated, even), and there is no such thing as a trait or personality type or whatever that is exclusively male or female. Gender roles serve no purpose other than society attempting to force it's will on the individual in an attempt to coerce them into conforming. In reality, people ARE indeed individuals, even if certain traits are somewhat more likely for certain population groups. Gender roles are not justified, and should be eliminated because there are plenty of people who simply don't fit those rigid views, to varying extents. I should know, because I absolutely hate many of the things about the traditional 'male gender-role' and I want nothing to do with those aspects.

 

And no, TV shows often have their screentime unevenly divided by gender, but this does not in any way imply that they are portraying a fictional world where one gender is advantaged, and it would be silly to think otherwise. And I find it funny you'd tolerate MLP with that kind of stance, given that one of it's goals at conception was to strike down the gender roles BS and promote gender-egalitarianism. Equestria clearly has no enforced gender roles, and both genders in MLP have been portrayed as equally capable. Even with just physical strength, the mares and stallions seem pretty darn even compared to humans, given what we've seen.

I can't see how you can hope to support an argument based on what we haven't seen. Here's news for you: expansive as it is, Equestria isn't real. There is no actively expanding culture that just happens on its own. That means that all we have in the show is all that's assumed to exist. For all intents and purposes, saying the rest of Equestria is full of alien space bats is just as valid as saying that there are more heroes in Equestria than just the ones we know, because we don't know it. You're talking about possibilities, I'm talking about what we have to work with.

 

I'm not using this topic to say anything that suggests that males are treated as second-class in any way depicted. You made that connection. I'm merely talking about how important the female characters in the show are, especially compared to the males, and how those trends and facts can connect to how Big Mac sees himself pursuant to the question this topic asked, until you came reading in my posts as being on the "make MLP manly" bandwagon and supporting your arguments on things that don't exist beyond pure speculation.

 

The whole culture of MLP is rooted in femininity from the meta perspective. If you were talking about something truly egalitarian, try to tell me why so much of the world of Equestria is built around visual themes of hearts, the color pink, the ponies themselves, as in things traditionally associated with the gender stereotype of girls? It was a show made for girls primarily. It was because the show happened to be good that other people began to like it, in fact even more so because girls' entertainment done this good is a true rarity. Just try to explain your way around that, unless we can agree that our viewpoints on what counts as gender-neutral entertainment differ without one or the other of us considering that our own is objective and the other is wrong.

 

Even if there's no evidence of any sort of institutional sexism in Equestria, the whole world was designed based on gender roles. But to keep it in-universe and on-topic, the show is full of great female role models. It just happens to be that way and Big Mac looks up to that. The characters that achieve more happen to be more female than male. Simple as that.

 

The whole deal about gender equality is a thing for another topic, and if you're surprised by my viewpoints, you clearly haven't been around the brony fandom enough.

[Vixor 80]

I can't see how you can hope to support an argument based on what we haven't seen. Here's news for you: expansive as it is, Equestria isn't real. There is no actively expanding culture that just happens on its own. That means that all we have in the show is all that's assumed to exist. For all intents and purposes, saying the rest of Equestria is full of alien space bats is just as valid as saying that there are more heroes in Equestria than just the ones we know, because we don't know it. You're talking about possibilities, I'm talking about what we have to work with.

 

I'm not using this topic to say anything that suggests that males are treated as second-class in any way depicted. You made that connection. I'm merely talking about how important the female characters in the show are, especially compared to the males, and how those trends and facts can connect to how Big Mac sees himself pursuant to the question this topic asked, until you came reading in my posts as being on the "make MLP manly" bandwagon and supporting your arguments on things that don't exist beyond pure speculation.

 

The whole culture of MLP is rooted in femininity from the meta perspective. If you were talking about something truly egalitarian, try to tell me why so much of the world of Equestria is built around visual themes of hearts, the color pink, the ponies themselves, as in things traditionally associated with the gender stereotype of girls? It was a show made for girls primarily. It was because the show happened to be good that other people began to like it, in fact even more so because girls' entertainment done this good is a true rarity. Just try to explain your way around that, unless we can agree that our viewpoints on what counts as gender-neutral entertainment differ without one or the other of us considering that our own is objective and the other is wrong.

 

Even if there's no evidence of any sort of institutional sexism in Equestria, the whole world was designed based on gender roles. But to keep it in-universe and on-topic, the show is full of great female role models. It just happens to be that way and Big Mac looks up to that. The characters that achieve more happen to be more female than male. Simple as that.

 

The whole deal about gender equality is a thing for another topic, and if you're surprised by my viewpoints, you clearly haven't been around the brony fandom enough.

 

You can certainly try to look at the show as something fully contained, but it's an extremely limited viewpoint, and not really a useful or realistic one, especially for these discussions. All that's assumed to exist should naturally include things that aren't actually shown directly, as well as things that are shown but are not expanded on. What those things are can be a matter of debate, but it's pretty clear that as far as Equestria goes, they have great gender-equality, a culture and society that is gender-egalitarian, and no real gender roles. We've been observing male and female ponies going about their lives this whole time, and there's no indication that either gender is socially, culturally, economically, or politically advantaged.

 

And you aren't simply talking about the show, you're talking about Equestria itself, the setting of the show. Not that females are portrayed as actually more important or 'superior' in the show, they simply receive more screentime. Or rather, again, the main protagonists receive the most screentime, and other characters of either gender don't receive as much. Even Celestia does not have her own episode, but you wouldn't dare to suggest that she isn't important from an in-universe perspective. And my arguments are supported by the show, which we've had a full five and counting seasons to both observe things directly, and make common sense conclusions based on various things. Big Macintosh lives in a gender-egalitarian society, and has no reason to view either gender as more 'heroic'. Maybe he wants to do more stuff like his sister Applejack specifically, but that has nothing to do with her gender, it's just that he hasn't tried it and she has.

 

And while MLP was created to have interesting female characters, it does not have a culture of femininity in the sense that it's portraying females as superior or that one gender is always taking the lead. What you're suggesting is sexist too, to suggest that those things you mentioned are limited to the gender stereotype of girls (traditionally in the past, many of those things may be seen that way by many, but certainly not now, and the show will go out of it's way to emphasize that). One of the other goals of the show is to show that those things aren't restricted by gender, and quite frankly I find any other insinuation offensive, as here I am, finding all of those things perfectly normal and enjoyable, along with most other people who enjoy the show. And compared to the old versions of MLP, this cartoon should look pretty gender-neutral to anyone. Also, I'm not arguing that MLP as a cartoon is completely gender neutral in the sense of screentime (both genders have been portrayed as equals, however), as clearly female characters overall receive more screentime, but what I'm arguing is that the society it's portraying is indeed gender-egalitarian, which is pretty darn clear.

 

And it's nonsense to suggest that "the whole world is based on gender roles", as it's quite the opposite. The country of Equestria clearly has no real gender roles, and from an out of universe perspective, one of the the goals of the show was to strike down gender roles. And if Faust is to be believed and is not some sort of female supremacist or anything else tinfoil, then she is also opposed to gender-roles. I've seen other people in the fandom with your views, so it's not a shock at this point, but I do find it amusing, as the show is quite literally the antithesis to those beliefs of yours. The shows focus is more on female characters, but it has never portrayed either gender as superior, dominant, or anything less than full equals with equal capability to achieve.