S07:E25+E26 - Shadow Play

[ShootingStar159 2,155]

7 minutes ago, MegaSean45 said:

So which counterpart is Stygian? Each Mane Six has a legend, but who's Stygian the legend of? Spike, Starlight, or Sunburst?

Obviously, he’s the counterpart to Celestia and Luna. He brought the pillars together just like Celestia brought the main six together. Then he turned to darkness because he wasn’t appreciated enough, just like Luna.

This is a joke, I think Starlight’s supposed to be his counterpart, if he has one.

Edited October 28, 2017 by ShootingStar159

[Buttonmash1973 1,026]

That.was.amzing. Now you can go home and sleep well

[Compeador 101]

This episode did a great job much than I excepted, now we have 7 old guys need to adapt to morden technology.

Now I'm so hyped to read the legend of magic and see the things they did thousand years ago

[Aethylynn 45]

9 minutes ago, MegaSean45 said:

So which counterpart is Stygian? Each Mane Six has a legend, but who's Stygian the legend of? Spike, Starlight, or Sunburst?

Technically he is not one of the pillars, so he wouldn't necessarily have a counterpart. He was sort of like their manager.

You know, the one who books their appearances, and pays off the hotel when they trash their room.

[Castle Bleck 19,327]

4 hours ago, MegaSean45 said:

So which counterpart is Stygian? Each Mane Six has a legend, but who's Stygian the legend of? Spike, Starlight, or Sunburst?

 

I'm guessing Spike -- i.e, the "underappreciated sidekick with a dark side" (e.g.: Spike's Secret Of My Excess form; Stygian's Pony Of Shadows form).

Edited October 28, 2017 by The Artist Formerly Known As A.V.

[FlareGun45 2,221]

Just now, Aethylynn said:

Technically he is not one of the pillars, so he wouldn't necessarily have a counterpart. He was sort of like their manager.

You know, the one who books their appearances, and pays off the hotel when they trash their room.

Sounds like a Spike counterpart. But at this point it could be either him or Starlight mostly! Maybe it's both!

[StitchandMLPlover 930]

On 10/23/2017 at 11:04 PM, WiiGuy2014 said:

You know something? Despite Thorax and the Changelings not being mentioned here, Their recent episode, "To Change a Changeling" had some connections to this finale.

The Biggest I noticed was how The Pony of Shadows and Pharynx share the same voice, Bill Newton, and role as antagonist. The difference is that while the Darkness of the Shadow tried to consume Stygian when he was banished feeding on his feelings of betrayal , Pharynx actually cared about the safety of the Hive. Both were misunderstood, but were finally given the respect they deserved.

Thorax and Starswirl are similar yet different. They're both leaders of their groups. The main difference is that while pride blinded StarSwirl's judgement leading to him banishing Stygian and making things worst, Thorax refused to banish Pharynx even when the whole Hive wanted him out. To Thorax, Pharynx wasn't a lost cause. Also, both leaders called out the main Unicorn for coming up with a plan that had dangerous side-effects: Starlight's  Leading the Malwulf right to the Hive hoping it would cause Pharnyx to fight for his brother putting the Hive at risk; Twilight's plan to bring back the Pillar not realizing it would bring back the Pony of Shadows with them.

Heck, Starlight doesn't say it, but when she suspect the Map was sending our heroes to solve a Friendship Problem instead of banishisg the Pony of Shadows, she must have recalled the Events of TCAC. In my opinion, this makes that episode's significance much more stronger.

Exactly I noticed the same thing. Starlight learned from her experience with Pharynx and applied it well here. 

 

 

My review: SPOILER ALERT!: I really liked the season finale! It was great to see the origins of the elements of harmony and how the new elements correspond to the old ones. Laughter = Hope. Honesty = Strength. Kindness = Healing. etc. Very good themes there. I think this episode handled its many characters and pacing better than the movie because nothing feels rushed and everything is explained. I like how this episode tied back to "Magical Mystery Cure" in various ways including explaining Celestia's line in "Magical Mystery Cure" about Starswirl not understanding friendship. I was a little disappointed that he was so dismissive of Twilight but it made sense and everybody felt in character. 

[Dark Qiviut 22,379]

53 minutes ago, PoisonClaw said:

Wow... Starswirl is a SUPER douche. No wonder he was never able to finish the spell Twilight did. 

 

50 minutes ago, Jeric said:

Yep. Now Celestia's explanation in MMC makes sense. 

At the same time, his reactions make sense. When it came to Stygian, everyone assumed that he was trying to steal their powers. He was basically magicless and powerless who garnered no credit, and it all came during a tumultuous era of their lives. Secondly, Twilight's act of releasing the Pillars from Limbo (and accidentally the PoS, too) was careless, so SS was justifiably upset at her.

[Zantetsuken 364]

So It has finally come to pass, the end of season 7 and my what a season it was.

I loved this episode and I want to start out by pointing out a rather abstract reason for my liking it that probably gives this episode way more weight in my personal opinion than it should have. I mentioned this in a previous post in a older thread a while back but this episode shares a lot of similarities to Zelda Ocarina of Time for me.

I see the six pillars as the six sages 
Starswirl- Rauru 
Meadowbrook- Saria 
Rockhoof- Darunia
Mistmane- Princess Ruto
(bit of a stretch but) Flash Magnus- Impa 
Somnambula- Nabooru 

Stygian/Pony of shadows - Gannondorf

Banished to Limbo- The six sages sealed Gannon away 

There are a lot of similarities and the OoT lover in me loved this episodes because of these connections. It's not perfect but it's pretty close.

About the actual episode It's not as action heavy as the other finales but it's a nuclear bomb of world building.

Where to begin... I guess I'll start with the writing and characters. I have no clue how JOSH-FREAKING-HABER of all writers was able to give 15 character's all equal screen time but somehow he did and none of it seems off or forced. I will admit when Josh's first episode Castle-Mania graced my computer screen back at the beginning of season 4 I thought the episode was pretty shit. Simple Ways failed to impress as well. Leap of Faith was okay but nothing to write home about. The Crystaling was uhh decent, and everything after Stranger Than Fanfiction was pretty good. I will admit Josh Haber had an uphill battle to make me like him but I can say after this episode he has finally earned my full respect. 

I like all the pillars I think I like my favorite is Meadowbrook they are all very unique and I love all the different accents and all that. I never thought that stupid little campfire stories episode, Daring Done, and A Health of Information would be foreshadowing the finale, genius writing there. (Not being sarcastic or anything I really mean that.) 

I like the resolution to the episode as well, I will admit Stygian's plan was pretty stupid but you can at least see where he was coming from so it all checks out. As for that backstory I loved seeing the sirens, that was awesome as hell. 

I didn't want to give a half baked review of this episode but I am not sure what else to say and all these incoming replies are shattering my concentration, LOL. So I will end this here by saying I really loved the episode and it was a great end to a great season. 

Part 1 9.5/10
Part 2 10/10 
Overall 10/10

Edited October 28, 2017 by Zantetsuken

[Midnight Seashell 206]

The pony of shadows reminds me way too much of venom from spiderman.But what l got from the episode was that in as much as we should ask our elders for help/advice and look up to them we also have to realise that they don't have all the answers and they can only advice us based on their experiences.

And as times change so do we because the problems and solutions they faced/used back then aren't always applicabke to nowadays.

Plus, there is more than one way of getting something done and we should keep our minds open to new possibilities and ideas although we don't always have to support every new thing but we should be a bit more open.Lastly, we should be careful not to make our own enemies.

[Aethylynn 45]

5 minutes ago, MegaSean45 said:

Sounds like a Spike counterpart. But at this point it could be either him or Starlight mostly! Maybe it's both!

Stygian played an active role in putting the group together, and then tried to duplicate their powers to become like them. Spike, on the other hand, was more of a tag along, who, when he did do something, usually acted on his own. I don't really see the connection, unless you are seeing them both as sidekicks.

The same with Starlight. I don't see a connection unless you're going for the 6+1 angle, with Stygian annd Starlight being the +1s.

Not everything has to be connected.

[Dark Qiviut 22,379]

@Sly made a point in the past. When you compare this to the FIM Movie, SP blows it out of the water in sheer, overall quality, and especially the characterization of the cast. The film had 99 minutes to juggle with close to 20 characters, yet several of them (including AJ, FS, Grubber, and Novo) were very flat, didn't contribute to the story beyond being there, and sometimes had awful dialogue. If comparing story, music, animation, and characters, the characters are the weakest and worst part of the film. However, in less than half the time, Haber juggled with 15 characters, not including side ones, and each line was important, organically placed, and had personality. Not one of the large group was slighted in any way. It wove Starlight into SP without feeling out of place or making the others look unlikeable.

[heavens-champion 1,905]

That wasn't too bad. At least Twilight had more lines here than she did in To Where And Back Again.

[Concerned Bystander 2,902]

I did love the way this episode tied in the various legends that had been mentioned in previous episodes, had I been a bit more observant I probably should have seen that coming but I missed it.  The EQG tie-in with the sirens was good to see as well, although it did fall very short of making EQG canon within the FiM universe.

What really interested me most though was the separation of Stygian from the Pony of Shadows at the end.  The episode made it fairly clear that Stygian became the PoS by himself, he was not possessed by anything other than the darker side of his own personality.  Yet at the end, Stygian was freed from the PoS which we see now as a separate being which was sent back into limbo.  I wonder how much of his ambition, drive and passion was embodied in the PoS?  How much did it cost Stygian to be free of his own dark side, and how much of himself he has lost?

Edited October 28, 2017 by Concerned Bystander

[Megas 27,564]

1 hour ago, Jeric said:

Re: Somnambula and Pinkie ... an argument can be made that personality traits =/= the representative elements and virtues. 

I think this is a case where you need to read the comics to see the connection as in her LOM comic she is very much like Pinkie 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Concerned Bystander said:

I did love the way this episode tied in the various legends that had been mentioned in previous episodes, had I been a bit more observant I probably should have seen that coming but I missed it.  The EQG tie-in with the sirens was good to see as well, although it did fall very short of making EQG canon within the FiM universe.

What really interested me most though was the separation of Stygian from the Pony of Shadows at the end.  The episode made it fairly clear that Stygian became the PoS by himself, he was not possessed by anything other than the darker side of his own personality.  Yet at the end, Stygian was freed from the PoS which we see now as a separate being which was sent back into limbo.  I wonder how much of his ambition, drive and passion was embodied in the PoS?  How much did it cost Stygian to be free of his own dark side, and how much of himself he has lost?

I was wondering about that myself too but wrote it off as a non-issue. But I have to imagine that means the shadow itself will be a villain later on.

 

It was a FiM bucket list item for me to see Starswirl the Bearded and I'm pretty happy with how they presented him. I liked that he was a bit harsh towards Twilight and Starlight, it sort of validated their evolution as friendship-magic wielding happy pones in their relevancy. Starswirl has a lot to learn and I hope they make several episodes in season 8 out of it. 

[BastementSparkle 20,324]

2 minutes ago, Concerned Bystander said:

What really interested me most though was the separation of Stygian from the Pony of Shadows at the end.  The episode made it fairly clear that  Stygian became the PoS by himself, he was not possessed by anything other than the darker side of his own personality.  Yet at the end, Stygian was freed from the PoS which we see now as a separate being which was sent back into limbo.  I wonder how much of his ambition, drive and passion was embodied in the PoS?  How much did it cost Stygian to be free of his own dark side, and how much of himself he has lost?

This doesn't seem right, it seemed fairly clear to me that he was indeed possessed by something else. Stygian mentions how after the other Legends turned him away, he found the "Well of Shades", and how the darkness "Whispered to him, and soon he and the darkness became one". When Twilight tries to talk him down, he even mentions how the "Darkness welcomed me when nopony would, and I will do what I must to protect it." All of this stuff to me makes it very clear that "The Darkness" is a separate entity from Stygian.

 Earlier in the episode where it's mentioned that Stygian became the Pony of Shadows on his own, that was all from the point of view of the Pillars, who obviously didn't fully understand what happened to him.

[Dark Qiviut 22,379]

24 minutes ago, Aethylynn said:

Stygian played an active role in putting the group together, and then tried to duplicate their powers to become like them. Spike, on the other hand, was more of a tag along, who, when he did do something, usually acted on his own. I don't really see the connection, unless you are seeing them both as sidekicks.

The same with Starlight. I don't see a connection unless you're going for the 6+1 angle, with Stygian annd Starlight being the +1s.

Not everything has to be connected.

Stygian and SG are 100% connected with each other, Pillar or not. Their backstories and journeys mirror each other, and she relates to him on a deeper level than the others. When they viewed the PoS as a lost cause, she didn't, and was very hurt when SS bitterly dismissed him in front of her.

[Misty Shadow 7,842]

The season finales continue to fail...fail to disappoint, that is. This was easily the most thrilling and thoroughly enjoyable episode of the season. No scene of exposition dragged on for too long, every part had me excited for what was going to happen next, and there were even parts I found...thought-provoking.  No, not the scene of Pinkie hugging AJ’s ass and possible implications of Garble being a pedo (HE HAS TO LET ME GIVE IT TO HIM), but the conflict of villain redemption that gets debated. Did Celestia ever really need to banish Luna? The conflict with Stygian and Equestria’s ancient heroes is very reminiscent of the first conflict in the show with Luna and Celestia, and if I had to think of one flaw for this episode, it would be the lack of Nightmare Moon. She really needed to be in this episode, at least as a cameo. After all, the Pony of Shadows folktale mentioned her. Oh well, with the returning villains that have been confirmed to return in Season 8, I think we’ll get more coverage soon enough.

[Oleks 1,993]

Not the best finale, in my opinion. Too many new characters, too little time to explore each of them, so all we know about the legendary ponies’ personalities is still only in legends, except for Star Swirl. The villain was kinda bland, and the shadow forces that turned him evil seemed much more interesting, although we learned virtually nothing about them. The pacing wasn’t great as well.  I think if this finale was split into 8-10 episodes, it would work way better, but the whole season would need restructuring for this purpose. I won’t even ask why they didn’t inform the Royal Sisters immediately after the Shadow Guy came back. Or why Discord didn’t show up.

Speaking of the positive aspects, the action scenes were cool, and Star Swirl finally got some screen time – we all have been waiting for this for so long.
I hope the next season’s finale will be better. And, considering the recent spoilers, it is bound to be epic.

As for the season in general, I really enjoyed it. It had many great episodes, both adventurous and slice of life. Now I will rewatch all of them and the movie waiting for the next season.

[Peter16373 103]

I’m happy that this season decided to tie the show, comics, and EQG together. Now there are far more possibilities that could happen. Such as possibly Sunset returning to Equestria.

[Concerned Bystander 2,902]

21 minutes ago, BasementSparkle said:

This doesn't seem right, it seemed fairly clear to me that he was indeed possessed by something else. Stygian mentions how after the other Legends turned him away, he found the "Well of Shades", and how the darkness "Whispered to him, and soon he and the darkness became one". When Twilight tries to talk him down, he even mentions how the "Darkness welcomed me when nopony would, and I will do what I must to protect it." All of this stuff to me makes it very clear that "The Darkness" is a separate entity from Stygian.

 Earlier in the episode where it's mentioned that Stygian became the Pony of Shadows on his own, that was all from the point of view of the Pillars, who obviously didn't fully understand what happened to him.

I took his struggle with the shadow to be metaphorical.  That's probably due to a spot of bias on my part, a character being possessed by an evil entity and having little or no accountability for their actions makes for a rather dull story, whereas a character being fully complicit in their own crimes and having to sacrifice a part of themselves in order to change their path is infinitely more interesting.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Concerned Bystander

[BastementSparkle 20,324]

10 minutes ago, Concerned Bystander said:

I took his struggle with the shadow to be metaphorical.  That's probably due to a spot of bias on my part, a character being possessed by an evil entity and having little or no accountability for their actions is rather dull, whereas a character being fully complicit in their own crimes and having to sacrifice a part of themselves in order to change their path is infinitely more interesting.

It really depends, being possessed by another entity really only removes all accountability if Stygian had no choice or say in the matter. The way Stygian talks it seems to me that to some extent, he deliberately accepted the Darkness and worked with it. He might have come to regret this later, but that doesn't change originally agreeing to work with it if that's what happened. Even if the thing manipulated him to some extent to get what it wanted, being manipulated by another doesn't totally resolve someone of guilt. It only resolves him of accountability if the Shadow possessed him entirely against his will by force.

 Like it or not though, it doesn't really come across as metaphorical to me, Stygian went to a particular place where he supposedly found this thing, or something connected to it, and it apparently spoke to him. Seems to me like it was a real thing, especially since it was capable of being separated from him and sent away on it's own.

Edited October 28, 2017 by BasementSparkle

[Dark Qiviut 22,379]

40 minutes ago, CloudMistDragon said:

and if I had to think of one flaw for this episode, it would be the lack of Nightmare Moon. She really needed to be in this episode, at least as a cameo. After all, the Pony of Shadows folktale mentioned her.

Thre's no reason for Nightmare Moon to be in here. The Pony of Shadows is his own villain with foreign origins. Putting her in regardless of length would be a major distraction from the story SP's trying to tell.

[Jeric 46,850]

Sees the "where's Discord?" mention that impacted someone's enjoyment of the episode. 

Honestly, Discord's reformation might well be the worst thing to happen to the show from a narrative point of view. Not for me, but certainly for many others who can't seem to get past the fact he isn't going to be Voltron's Blazing Sword like they seemingly want.