Magic in MLP

[Sagely Thyme, Scoffer of Tiramisu 474]

Here today I want to start an open forum to discussing the magic behind the world of MLP, and anything goes: from unicorns and innate magic to incantations and alchemy, and everything in between as seen in the show.

To start off this new discussion I'd like to just state the basics that we should all know and elaborate on them as I see them. First of all, there are unicorns that can use magic from close to birth. They all have a certain type and range of magic available to them based on their special talents, often denoted to match their cutie marks. Things like cooking cleaning and so on all have special types of magic that can be used through a little training and practice.

But then we reach the special ones, those whose talent IS magic, which opens a great door of possibility as we see in the form of Twilight Sparkle. She has been shown to use a great range of magic far exceeding that of those around her, going so far as to have an exceptional propensity for said types of magic. But here is where things get interesting: Twilight is by no means a rare case, as we see many other ponies have a skill in magic as their special talent, but none to the point that Twilight has.

This raises a few questions, the most important in my mind being what separates Twilight from other ponies like her?

It is stated by Celestia that Twilight has a great affinity for magic, but as anyone in any profession can tell you, natural talent can only take you so far. More to the point, is it possible that other unicorns could have the ability to reach Twilight's level of magical mastery if they study hard enough and practice long enough? Or is she simply the kind of pony that can reach such limits because of a mix of both her natural skills and her intense love for her studies?

Moreover, if such things are attainable by anypony with skills in magic, does this open the door to the possibility of somepony who has more power than an alicorn princess based on hard work and natural talent?

[Midnight Seashell 206]

Its possible that Twilight got a powerup from becoming an alicorn and another power up whenever she uses the element of magic, possibly. Also, Trixie got amped up by the alicorn amulet.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Midnight Seashell

[Sagely Thyme, Scoffer of Tiramisu 474]

Thats true, it would be fair to say that adding magical artifacts could also speed growth and enhance abilities, but might I remind you that even after Twilight became an alicorn, she still lost quite a few times to Starlight when battling to fix the future. I think it would be fair to say that any power up they get can still be trounced by inexperience and a difference in skill. 

[Singe 2,111]

It depends on how much magical energy they can expend. Each unicorn can have different amounts which affects how much they can do before it strains or becomes too much.

Great affinity for magic to me translates to being able to wield more magical power than other unicorns at one time, especially when she's the focal point for using magical energy from multiple ponies like elements of harmony and all those alicorn energies. Twilight is just versed in magic her own way because of the opportunity and access to spell material to research and practice. Before she cut back after becoming the Princess of Friendship.

23 minutes ago, Sagely Thyme said:

Moreover, if such things are attainable by anypony with skills in magic, does this open the door to the possibility of somepony who has more power than an alicorn princess based on hard work and natural talent?

Starlight Glimmer was able to one up Twilight Sparkle. In general any unicorn that has the time, resources, greed for knowledge, and ambition to improve themselves can do it. 

One direction would be finding/developing a spell to counteract the Alicorn attribute like turning them back to their previous form.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Singe

[Sagely Thyme, Scoffer of Tiramisu 474]

Yeah, you got me there. Well then I suppose that raises another question, what can best an alicorn when you fight them with their magical skills? How does that affect them in a battle when faced against what they know best, and are they unbeatable. For instance, if somepony went against Celestia using light magic, which I can only assume is her main form of attack,  would they stand a chance in a purely light based battle, or would they eventually succumb to the might of someone greater than they themselves. I believe that the answer varies based on the amount of time the challenger spent learning and practicing. I say this because strong as she may be, Celestia is still a princess with a boatload of royal duties, and we have seen her bested before by other means. I don't honestly see her making time to practice what she already knows, but at the same time she does hold a great strength. But then again it all falls to the potential of the challenger, and thats assuming they dont find a foil to her light based attacks... I feel like I'm overthinking something we only see for an episode or two throughout the whole series though.

[CypherHoof 26,483]

I think that is what Celestia's school is for; most unicorns have a limited range - no matter how hard they study, they will never be able to do "general" magic; sunburst would be a good example here; while he was able to do normal unicorn magic (so, telekenetics) and no doubt has some special talent related to his cutie mark (which he got while saving GlimGlam, so it *should* be related to that) when he got to Celestia's school, he was unable to put his book learning into practice. Shiny's shield spell seems to be his only spell (plus telekinetics of course) similarly. When we see images of sunburst in the past, he is teaching and guiding GlimGlam, but she is the one doing the magic, not him (which seems logical, looking back, but have to wonder why it wasn't obvious at the time)

Celestia seems to have more general powers, as do Twilight, Luna, and GlimGlam. That starswirl does is a given, and presumably moondancer also.  Cadence (despite being an alicorn) also seems limited to her "love" spell, although she is able to use it to shield the crystal empire and power up Shiny, so not sure where her boundaries are; certainly, it was the three other alicorns (plus GlimGlam) that repaired the crystal heart, but she was clearly needed for the ceremony so we don't know from that if she could have helped or not.

 

[Sagely Thyme, Scoffer of Tiramisu 474]

That's true, and it also bring me on to something else I wanted to look at, spell parts and their execution. If any of you have ever looked into the best types of magics in fantasy worlds they oftentimes are made up of many small orders or commands that equal to one large spell. For instance, something like a fireball spell could be something like : locate material > gather > create friction > add heat > ignite > launch. Through practice and training it could take a mere moment of muscle memory to activate that when it could take minutes when starting out. This makes me wonder if they have to use this method as well in their unicorn magic, as we do see unicorns struggle with it, as though creating the spell only for it to fall apart when they cant activate a particular part properly. This makes me wonder what the true "range" of a unicorns magic begins and ends with, and if it is simply an incompatibility with the specific command being used at that time, or if it can be altered in some way to be more hospitable. And in regards to your statement of certain ponies only having one spell that could be what their special talents are, I feel that we lack a certain amount of information, having only really seen their special magics in dire situations and not in their day to day usage. Certainly these spells like Shiny's shield bubble and Cadences attraction spell are some of their best tricks, but could there be variations or different forms these spells could take that are the true representation of their range of spells?

Also I just wanna say I am loving this right now

[Krashface 534]

Finally someone starting this
Ok, Long post ahead.

Ok, let's see: as I immagine, Magic is some kind of force that can channel into a pony, but sometimes, for unknown reasons related to bloodlines and luck, some individuals can manifest the power to manipulate and create magic.
This said, Twilight's abilities and affinity with magic are more of a natural gift (and producers decision  ), but as anyone who've followed the series till now, others have manifested incredible talents with magic. And with this, I mean Starlight, just for start.

As you said, @Sagely Thyme, the possibility that a unicorn (or a non-unicorn) may become even more powerful than a Alicorn is possible, although remotely, since this horned and winged creatures are the concentration of the three major races of ponies.
And about the question about challenging an alicorn: Celestia and Luna's magic is releted to stars, so something incredibly powerful even to master, and I barely think that, without cheating, some pony may beat them, let's not speaking of Twilight who's "element" is magic !

But as we've saw, and @Midnight Seashell rightly implied, the existence of artifacts of some ancient times (even more then 1000 years?) can grant a pony or even, who knows, a strange monkey like being to command nature itself.
Even if in some cases, the artifact itself need magic to work, first, like the Storm Wand of the Storm King.
And this concept, of stealing magic for incrementing the one someone may already possess, is very well depicted by Tirek, who got strong enough to challenge Twilight.
Oh, and the Alicorn Amulet... possibly, that thing isn't just enchanted, but rather cursed, and will slowly transform a pony into it's creator ( chilling, man)

This said, the ability Twilight have with magic is probably something related to been an Element: she have been chosen by Magic to be its vessel, and so she can manipulate it with ease, and becoming an alicorn made her even more powerful.
Althrought not the most powerful.
I don't know if Flurry will loose part of her powers, once grown up, but I think that a pony born Alicorn is something that goes over comprehension: she already manifested and OP power, but hey, maybe she'll get nerfed .

But if the magic we are speaking about is the "light one", what about dark magic?
Sombra demonstrated, and Celestia explained, that this type is more powerful, yet unstable one, and what I always imagine is that that magic can be easely used by anyone who can manage to channel magic, but at the price of the user's sanity.
I'm gonna admit that I'm really interested in this one, since it seems that is rather... alive, like the Umbrum or the presence that transformed Stygian.
May magic actually manifest, if it had the opportunity ?

[Singe 2,111]

King Sombra is also a unicorn that can go toe to toe with an Alicorn.

Tempest Shadow has one spell but over time refined it to be powerful.

Also we see little in the way of combat magics being taught in the series.

[Krashface 534]

8 minutes ago, Singe said:

King Sombra is also a unicorn that can go toe to toe with an Alicorn.

Also, even if the comics aren't canon, Sombra isn't a common unicorn.
He is a Umbrum transformed into a pony, so basically his origin isn't organic, but rather of pure dark magic, making him closer (if not even more powerful) to Twilight.
But of corse, this isn't totally canon, unfortunately.

8 minutes ago, Singe said:

Tempest Shadow has one spell but over time refined it to be powerful.

And the fact of having a broken horn is something exceptional !
This said, the horn of a unicorn function more like an amplifier and channeler , rather then just a bone protuberant .

8 minutes ago, Singe said:

Also we see little in the way of combat magics being taught in the series.

Given the nature of the show, is even understandable, but one may immagine what spells have been created, in older and more perilous times, and in greater stories (I really hope the next gen will show something more of how magic can be used to fight ).

[Sagely Thyme, Scoffer of Tiramisu 474]

@Krashface Boy howdy are my gears turning now! Ok first off I wanna address this first, yes magic is capable of manifesting, but what kind of magic? As we've seen in the show, there are many factors in manifesting, and Friendship and Animosity seem to be the most prevalent and powerful so far. For instance, Nightmare Moon was born of jealousy and desire to be the best, Stygian was born from much the same, but with a dash of rage added in to complete the mixture and to stew properly. And just as harmony has form in the elements as powerful magical artifacts, so too does chaos in the form of Discord.

In regards to your concerns about dark magic, I feel that as disagreements and arguments will always happen, so too will this always exist. I'd be lying if I said I thought that all magic was inert and simply a result of an accident or a mutation that allows for the impossible to occur, instead I feel all magic is alive and that it will act accordingly to how it was conceived. Something like dark magic will seek new ways to corrupt and destroy, light magic will serve as its counter, constantly trying to balance it without truly destroying it (you'll notice how a lot of light magic seems to be banishing dispelling or healing, trying to fix the problem without causing harm), and things like harmony chaos and so forth are all just different manifestations of magic given form in one way or another. I'd even risk going as far to say that the tree of harmony might have been harmonic magic taking a more stable form during the rule of discord to sustain itself until the balance was restored.

And @Singe I see what your saying with Sombra and Tempest but I feel more can be said. Sombra is an Umbru, which for all we know is another manifestation of a dark magic type that can be a strong as hate and fear are in the world (see Chrysalis during the royal wedding for this case in opposite with love based magic giving Crysie enough power to best Celestia). And as for Temptest, what she does is more magical overflow, which is to say she builds up raw magical energy and releases it without any definite purpose or form, which works perfectly with her horn in order to act chaotically and cause harm.

 

I would also like to point out that it seems all ponies have magical capabilities that can manifest in different ways. Unicorns can use magic plain and simple, but earth ponies have been shown time and again to have above average speed and strength when the situation demands it, and pegasi can literally interact with the weather when no other can as effectively.

This opens up an interesting discussion of whether or not all ponies have some semblance for magic but are carriers of it in different ways, we may even go so far as to say that the magic is what makes the pony. Take Pound and Pumpkin Cake, a pegasi and a unicorn born from two earth ponies. Could it be that their magical capabilities at birth were more to the style of weather and air based magics and magical control in general, and while in the womb their bodies changed in order to suit their magical capabilities? 

This could also explain how cutie marks work to some degree; your body as a pony has a certain type of magical force inside it that your body naturally adapts to make full use of, and your cutie mark is then determined based on how your body perceives and makes use of said magic in your day to day, until it finds something that you find to be something you love, triggering the cutie mark to appear... then again that is all based off of a non-detailed micro theory on how magic works on a micro level, so maybe not so much...

[sweetolebob18 728]

Most wizards in fiction (not just MLP) assume that there is a universal magic field and a wizard uses their personal power to tap that field. This puts two limits on spells.

1) The individual's personal limits, based on talent, raw power, & skill. Personal power can be increased. It's like running. Just about anyone can run. You practice, you get better. You practice enough, you can run a marathon. Most folks, it don't matter HOW much they practice, they ain't gonna win the Boston Marathon or run a 2 hour marathon, it just ain't in them. Raw power isn't everything, though. Skill & training help. This is why, for instance,  Mohammed Ali beat George Forman at boxing. I think of a pony's magic as a water tower. The horn is like the tower's pipe & measures "How much can you channel at once?" Can you lift an anvil or just an apple? Some ponies have an ocean (or at least a lake) in their tower. Others, a small pond. This is endurance & measures "How long can you keep it up?" Some can lift an anvil (or an Ursa Minor) but couldn't do it very long. Others could only lift an apple, but could keep it up for DAYS on end.  There is also "field dexterity". Just because you can lift an anvil, doesn't mean that you can thread a needle. Rarity probably doesn't have Twilight's raw power but she's very dexterous. This is probably the part most able to be improved, but each pony has their limits & some are just better than others

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=mlp+s1+suited+for+success&&view=detail&mid=C29C21441887FF7817A8C29C21441887FF7817A8&FORM=VRDGAR

2) The magic field itself is finite, no doubt, & sets an absolute limit on just how much magic ANYONE can use. (Larry Niven's story "The Magic Goes Away", for instance)

But, other ponies have their magic, even if they can't cast spells. Pegasi are too big to fly without magic. (IMO, Dash can fly so fast because The Force is strong with this one. Her midichloreans are off the scale). "Bucking" trees is magic too. Even ignoring the "just fall into the basket" part, getting all the ripe fruit & only the ripe fruit to fall...IRL, it don't work that way.

Plus, the way that Ponies can pick stuff up with their hooves is magic

[Castle Bleck 19,347]

3 hours ago, Singe said:

Starlight Glimmer was able to one up Twilight Sparkle.

 

Due to being an above-average mage undergoing an insanity-induced adrenaline rush at the time (as implied by All Bottled Up -- great episode, BTW).

 

3 hours ago, Singe said:

King Sombra is also a unicorn that can go toe to toe with an Alicorn.

Tempest Shadow has one spell but over time refined it to be powerful.

 

Sombra's actually the reincarnated second-in-command of the Umbrum (your mileage may vary on the canonicity, but it is what it is).

 

And Tempest's magic falls under Awesome, but Impractical (she can do the equivalent of a magical grenade-launcher; however, her broken horn means that's the only spell she can do, and it still took her a while to figure out how to control it), so she relies on being... well, Batman-like... instead most of the time.

[Sagely Thyme, Scoffer of Tiramisu 474]

5 hours ago, sweetolebob18 said:

Most wizards in fiction (not just MLP) assume that there is a universal magic field and a wizard uses their personal power to tap that field. This puts two limits on spells.

1) The individual's personal limits, based on talent, raw power, & skill. Personal power can be increased. It's like running. Just about anyone can run. You practice, you get better. You practice enough, you can run a marathon. Most folks, it don't matter HOW much they practice, they ain't gonna win the Boston Marathon or run a 2 hour marathon, it just ain't in them. Raw power isn't everything, though. Skill & training help. This is why, for instance,  Mohammed Ali beat George Forman at boxing. I think of a pony's magic as a water tower. The horn is like the tower's pipe & measures "How much can you channel at once?" Can you lift an anvil or just an apple? Some ponies have an ocean (or at least a lake) in their tower. Others, a small pond. This is endurance & measures "How long can you keep it up?" Some can lift an anvil (or an Ursa Minor) but couldn't do it very long. Others could only lift an apple, but could keep it up for DAYS on end.  There is also "field dexterity". Just because you can lift an anvil, doesn't mean that you can thread a needle. Rarity probably doesn't have Twilight's raw power but she's very dexterous. This is probably the part most able to be improved, but each pony has their limits & some are just better than others

 

To hit on this first, I whole heartedly agree, I think it is safe to say that ponies do vary and differ based on their unique magics and capabilities. I also think that the field diversity aspect is quite interesting and something that has slipped my mind. Raw power and talent are one thing, but having different ways to use said power and talent is another. I hope to examine this further in the future in regards to determining if there are any contributing factors as to finding out how he can tell the difference between a wide range of flexibility, to magical endurance and even consistency. 

5 hours ago, sweetolebob18 said:

But, other ponies have their magic, even if they can't cast spells. Pegasi are too big to fly without magic. (IMO, Dash can fly so fast because The Force is strong with this one. Her midichloreans are off the scale). "Bucking" trees is magic too. Even ignoring the "just fall into the basket" part, getting all the ripe fruit & only the ripe fruit to fall...IRL, it don't work that way.

Plus, the way that Ponies can pick stuff up with their hooves is magic

PREACH @sweetolebob18, PREACH! I don't know many "bronies" yet but they all seem to think that magic is only magic when it comes to casting spells or using incantations. I find it appaling that more people don't hold your sensibilities in regards to magic being more pervasive than the show likely lets on. Also I think it might be interesting to try and hit upon some more of these magical aspects in a different manner when more people are likely to be awake. For now I'm just glad to know that I'm not entirely alone in this thought process and I can't wait to share *all* my thoughts on this. For now, here is a quote of what I have said already on this for easier management and faster conversations so people don't have to search for it.

8 hours ago, Sagely Thyme said:  

I would also like to point out that it seems all ponies have magical capabilities that can manifest in different ways. Unicorns can use magic plain and simple, but earth ponies have been shown time and again to have above average speed and strength when the situation demands it, and pegasi can literally interact with the weather when no other can as effectively.

[KH7672 1,604]

7 hours ago, A.V. said:

Due to being an above-average mage undergoing an insanity-induced adrenaline rush at the time (as implied by All Bottled Up -- great episode, BTW).

And to add onto that: she knew exactly what what going on, exactly the strengths, and weaknesses of her opponent from months of stalking, and exactly what her goal was (disrupting the rainboom process any way possible) while Twilight was thrown into this situation completely blind. The only thing remotely OP in her magic is self-levitation, except Twilight's mother can also do it so eh...

I see Alicorn magic is more potent than regular magic. Just look at Flurry Heart vs. Pumpkin Cake. While Pumpkin may be self levitating and pulling intangiblity acts, I would never fear that she's going to destroy the Bakery by lifting heavy objects around the room or sneezing lasers through the walls. I don't think any unicorn can match an alicorn through just skill and studying alone. I definitely seems to spring from natural ability and calling (this kinda makes me want to know what Pumpkin's cutie mark is going to be)

[MontagnaMagica 307]

The answer to your questions is simple. You take a blood sample to evaluate the midi-chlorian count.  

Edited December 20, 2017 by MontagnaMagica

[Sagely Thyme, Scoffer of Tiramisu 474]

Just now, MontagnaMagica said:

The answer to your questions is simple. You take a blood sample to evaluate the midi-chlorian count.  

who's question?

[MontagnaMagica 307]

Just now, Sagely Thyme said:

who's question?

Yours (in the OP), silly filly!

[Sagely Thyme, Scoffer of Tiramisu 474]

Just now, MontagnaMagica said:

Yours (in the OP), silly filly!

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh, that makes a lot more sense now. My apologies for my silly head, its been a long time since i posted that... long day and all that

[Goat-kun 2,527]

Since it's all about mana pools I propose a Tirek Test. Tirek sucks all the ponies individually and we evaluate the time of sucking.

 

Recent canonifications of certain texts and other goings on within the show have reaffirmed my position that the alicorns have greater mana pools. They may share a similar output with unicorns but the time in which alicorns can maintain such output should be noticeably longer. The other reason why alicorns seem weak is in the spells they use as those were all made to be utilized by unicorns.

 

P.S: Hard work, dedication, and talent do not let a man K.O. a gorilla. Nature reigns supreme.

[Sagely Thyme, Scoffer of Tiramisu 474]

1 minute ago, Goat-kun said:

Since it's all about mana pools I propose a Tirek Test. Tirek sucks all the ponies individually and we evaluate the time of sucking.

Recent canonifications of certain texts and other goings on within the show have reaffirmed my position that the alicorns have greater mana pools. They may share a similar output with unicorns but the time in which alicorns can maintain such output should be noticeably longer. The other reason why alicorns seem weak is in the spells they use as those were all made to be utilized by unicorns.

P.S: Hard work, dedication, and talent do not let a man K.O. a gorilla. Nature reigns supreme.

A few things with this: First off I feel like while examining mana pools is a good idea in theory, it could be that he drains them of their essence over a period of time rather than based on how much he is absorbing, it could be a spell or technique that simply requires say 10 seconds for it to be done regardless of how much is absorbed. Secondly while in terms of raw power, alicorns may be supreme, its how they use the power that matters. The gorilla may have more strength, but if it doesn't see the attack coming, then it can be over in an instant (see here the beginning of the MLP movie where every alicorn is defeated in a matter of moments before they can use their higher power to defeat the enemy). I would also like to take this time to say that when you boil things down to base stats and natural abilities you sidelong the abilities and potential of the vast potential that learning and training holds. Just saying

[Goat-kun 2,527]

8 hours ago, Sagely Thyme said:

A few things with this: First off I feel like while examining mana pools is a good idea in theory, it could be that he drains them of their essence over a period of time rather than based on how much he is absorbing, it could be a spell or technique that simply requires say 10 seconds for it to be done regardless of how much is absorbed. Secondly while in terms of raw power, alicorns may be supreme, its how they use the power that matters. The gorilla may have more strength, but if it doesn't see the attack coming, then it can be over in an instant (see here the beginning of the MLP movie where every alicorn is defeated in a matter of moments before they can use their higher power to defeat the enemy). I would also like to take this time to say that when you boil things down to base stats and natural abilities you sidelong the abilities and potential of the vast potential that learning and training holds. Just saying

A percentage based drain? I'm pretty sure it took him longer to drain Discord.

 

The gorilla might have been a bad example since all ponies are pretty weak and any attack can potentially neutralize them. A man cannot K.O. a gorilla with bare hands no matter what. You'd have to use something like a sledgehammer, but then we'd be talking Alicorn Amulets. Still, it demonstrates that there are always biological limitations no hard work and dedication can surpass, only augmentation.

 

I do think you have been blinded by relativity: a current fetish of modern humanity. Surprise attacks are not magic, they are common sense. But we are talking about magic, not strategy or tactics. If you have an alicorn and a unicorn with the same attributes who received the same unicorn magical training then the alicorn shall be seen as only slightly more powerful. But if you train both to the full limitation of their ability, then the alicorn could potentially be able to beat the unicorn anytime, among other things. Of course, this is conjecture based on what was previously said. Magic in FIM is a bit of a plot propellant first and defined concept never. It is hard to lore in pony.

 

Now about that hard work and dedication, if you also want to discuss how to easily disable a horned pony without much or any magic, I have plenty of suggestions

[Sagely Thyme, Scoffer of Tiramisu 474]

11 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

The gorilla might have been a bad example since all ponies are pretty weak and any attack can potentially neutralize them. A man cannot K.O. a gorilla with bare hands no matter what. You'd have to use something like a sledgehammer, but then we'd be talking Alicorn Amulets. Still, it demonstrates that there are always biological limitations no hard work and dedication can surpass, only augmentation.

In regards to that I would like to point out that magic is as magic does: it's random and chaotic at the worst of times, and held tightly on a weak leash at the best of times. I would like to make the argument that while it is difficult to beat an alicorn without any augmentations, I would like to argue that it is not impossible. For the average unicorn it would certainly be a tall order for them to manage without the alicorn being fully trained. But say you have a unicorn that is exceptional at magic, like Twilight, and I would argue that they have a fighting chance at an equal level, because while powerful I still believe them to be living things with their own limits. And to say that it would be easy is aggressively false, but i say possible. Also, relativism is something that should be forgone in a thread such as this: Magic in general has many different factors that can contribute or detract from how it acts in a battle. Casting speed, spell drain, mobility options while casting, spell type, how it is countered, the effects on the caster, the effects on the environment. Not only that but the different affinities for magic and how the spells they use can be most efficiently used. Ponies like Twilight, while good at all forms and kinds of magic, are really the Jack of All Trades instead of specialists, just like Celestia has an affinity for great celestial magics. What if you take a pony who specializes in battle magics? They would likely have an advantage over an alicorn who can use celestial magics and magical beams but not grandiose magic built for fighting. I see your point of alicorns natural strength would be a hard fought fight but please keep in mind all the factors that go into a magical duel. It should be fair to say that relativism has no place with so many factors and instead realism is more likely to be the culprit of my arguments. 

 

11 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

A percentage based drain? I'm pretty sure it took him longer to drain Discord.

You forget good sir, Discord is an entirely different species from every other thing drained in that episode, and in all honesty has a different form of magic from the normally harmonic ponies. Chaos could be more unruly and require more time to fully consume. But then again this is conjecture just as is the point above, and both need more information before a final decision can be made.  

11 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

Now about that hard work and dedication, if you also want to discuss how to easily disable a horned pony without much or any magic, I have plenty of suggestions

Actually I started this for that very reason. I made my oc a pony with a horn but unable to use unicorn magic, but can use many nontraditional magics that still work. I suggest we start with the one that has the most backing in the show, Potions . I'd be glad to begin discussing this post haste, how about we discuss the different types of alchemical agents and what we know of the process as it stands at current?

Edited December 21, 2017 by Sagely Thyme

[Sagely Thyme, Scoffer of Tiramisu 474]

To start we should first acknowledge its purpose. Potions and brews seem to have a purpose of more natural medicinal assistance. Something that can both activate the magic in a living thing, as well as to remove a problem existing inside said living things. I feel from what we can see in the show, potions can be both remedies and reagents, activating certain possibilites inside of something to either activate its magic in a particular way or to remove something that is causing the recipient of the potion issue. I mostly derive these facts from what we see with potions in the show, such as with Zecora's notable appearances in the early seasons: she makes a brew to help remove the magical effects of poison joke through a kind of soap or ointment that can be used in bathing, hence the ability to remove magical and mundane ailments. In regards to activating latent or potential magic inside a living thing, look no further than the cutie pox episode to see this in action. I have touched prior upon my theories on cutie marks and the magic they hold, which is how it is possible to activate the latent magic residing in a pony early through something like hearts desire, as well as the ability to re-instill confidence, which if looking at the elements of harmony could be another form of an emotional magic sub type, for the crowing of .a rooster. I would love to hear your thoughts on this in particular @Goat-kun, but as always if anyone has something to contribute please speak up, I would love to hear from anyone on this subject at current. Also as a side note, does anyone have knowledge of all magical flora shown in the show and additional media thus far? Anything goes so long as it fits three requirements: it was published in something under the banner of Hasbro and DHX, it has been shown to have specific magical properties even if not stated, and it isn't some one off joke but instead the solution or cause of a problem. So far I can think of a few: Heart's Desire, Poison Joke, and the flower with healing properties (supposedly) from Three's a Crowd- hence referred to as a Tatzl-flower after the worm that lives among its roots.

[Goat-kun 2,527]

3 hours ago, Sagely Thyme said:

In regards to that I would like to point out that magic is as magic does: it's random and chaotic at the worst of times, and held tightly on a weak leash at the best of times. I would like to make the argument that while it is difficult to beat an alicorn without any augmentations, I would like to argue that it is not impossible. For the average unicorn it would certainly be a tall order for them to manage without the alicorn being fully trained. But say you have a unicorn that is exceptional at magic, like Twilight, and I would argue that they have a fighting chance at an equal level, because while powerful I still believe them to be living things with their own limits. And to say that it would be easy is aggressively false, but i say possible. Also, relativism is something that should be forgone in a thread such as this: Magic in general has many different factors that can contribute or detract from how it acts in a battle. Casting speed, spell drain, mobility options while casting, spell type, how it is countered, the effects on the caster, the effects on the environment. Not only that but the different affinities for magic and how the spells they use can be most efficiently used. Ponies like Twilight, while good at all forms and kinds of magic, are really the Jack of All Trades instead of specialists, just like Celestia has an affinity for great celestial magics. What if you take a pony who specializes in battle magics? They would likely have an advantage over an alicorn who can use celestial magics and magical beams but not grandiose magic built for fighting. I see your point of alicorns natural strength would be a hard fought fight but please keep in mind all the factors that go into a magical duel. It should be fair to say that relativism has no place with so many factors and instead realism is more likely to be the culprit of my arguments.

You are correct. Alicorns, unicorns, or even others, different pony characters will perform differently. Let me simplify my claim: if a pony would fight an alicorn version of themselves, then the alicorn would win.

3 hours ago, Sagely Thyme said:

You forget good sir, Discord is an entirely different species from every other thing drained in that episode, and in all honesty has a different form of magic from the normally harmonic ponies. Chaos could be more unruly and require more time to fully consume. But then again this is conjecture just as is the point above, and both need more information before a final decision can be made.

Discord is a very hard thing to dissect. He breaks the rules, but then he uses magic that is very similar to that of horned ponies. The same things that inhibit pony magic also affect his abilities (like Chrysalis magic inhibition stone). That is why I regard his magic to not be that different from pony magic.

3 hours ago, Sagely Thyme said:

Actually I started this for that very reason. I made my oc a pony with a horn but unable to use unicorn magic, but can use many nontraditional magics that still work. I suggest we start with the one that has the most backing in the show, Potions . I'd be glad to begin discussing this post haste, how about we discuss the different types of alchemical agents and what we know of the process as it stands at current?

Potions is where I would start too.  Well, maybe not potions in their fantastical sense, but poisons. While I assume you gave your OC the knowledge of alchemy for the purpose of magic and improvement, I gave mine the ability to do the exact opposite: to cripple an opponent.

 

In regards to alchemy, there is little known about solvents, ingredients, and their interactions within the show. What we know are the effects of various plants and animal toxins. Besides Poison Joke that has unpredictable effects, the most potent toxins are the pollen from Plunderseed vines (Princess Twilight Sparkle) and aroma of Somnambular bloom (Daring Do and the Marked Thief of Marapore). The former can disrupt unicorn's magic, making it go berserk. The later is a potent anesthetic that can put anypony to sleep. They are easy to use though they do require a certain level physical prowess and workbench knowhow. Then there's the eye of a cockatrice. I wonder if it could work the same way as the head of Medusa. It would be way more practical that Tempest's "green crystals of rock solid plot". There's also hydra venom. In original Greek mythology hydra venom is very potent and excruciatingly painful substance that can be absorbed through the skin.

 

As for the other materials: all large beasts show various degrees of magic resistance, so one could try dragon or wurm scales and roc feathers. Also, the alloy Storm King's soldiers use for their armor and weaponry has been shown to deflect magic attacks. If one is looking for simple, passive protection against magic this is where one should start.