Rainbow wasn't out of character in "2, 4, 6, Greaaat".

[BornAgainBrony 2,397]

33 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

It has everything to do with Friendship socialism. They are using RD as a tool to make a point that has nothing to do with RD herself. She just has conveniently exploitable traits. "Not trying to prove a point" is the cure to RD's salvation, or at least it would be. Too late. GG go G5. You see, Friendship socialism is not something that exists strictly within the show. It is the narrative that is forced in no matter the cost.

The point is there are a thousand other characters who could be royally screwing up which would give the Mane 6 an opportunity to do what Harmony chose them for, instead of going the opposite direction and having them repeatedly sink to levels of borderline unworthiness. It may have been a bit more obviously preachy, but the purpose of the Element wielders made the most sense when the Cutie Map was involved. They were akin to missionaries spreading a divine message, and as they did, Harmony's influence grew and it was able to manifest in more interesting ways.

Just about any story that has a "chosen one" archetype requires that figure to obey certain rules. And at least at one point such rules were intended. Celestia and Luna forever lost their link to the Elements as a result of their shenanigans during the Nightmare Moon incident. A more extreme example that almost resulted in death, but since the essence of the Elements is ultimately about social issues, not rainbow lasers, there's clearly a danger of betraying Harmony and of "Thor's Hammer" selecting someone new.

[Goat-kun 2,527]

21 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

The point is there are a thousand other characters who could be royally screwing up which would give the Mane 6 an opportunity to do what Harmony chose them for, instead of going the opposite direction and having them repeatedly sink to levels of borderline unworthiness. It may have been a bit more obviously preachy, but the purpose of the Element wielders made the most sense when the Cutie Map was involved. They were akin to missionaries spreading a divine message, and as they did, Harmony's influence grew and it was able to manifest in more interesting ways.

Just about any story that has a "chosen one" archetype requires that figure to obey certain rules. And at least at one point such rules were intended. Celestia and Luna forever lost their link to the Elements as a result of their shenanigans during the Nightmare Moon incident. A more extreme example that almost resulted in death, but since the essence of the Elements is ultimately about social issues, not rainbow lasers, there's clearly a danger of betraying Harmony and of "Thor's Hammer" selecting someone new.

You of all people should appreciate the practical elegance of nonexistent effort that was put into worldbuilding

 

There is no progression. There are no rules. There is no world. The only things that have any value are the characters' looks and most basic quirks that people can identify them by. These will be kept relatively consistent for the sake of marketing. It's not important whether that brushable RD figure has memories from the first season or the last. Show RD role is to remind people that she exists, that she is totes cool, and that they should buy her. You have a problem that she acts like in S01 or worse? Is it influencing sales? Probably not, so who cares.

 

The other thing that remains on this pile is the feel-good message of Friendship socialism. We as a Tumblr lite community helped propagate the notion that this financially worthless thing has value and our glorious writers agree. Guess they are even greater issue peddlers than we are.

 

This is how you get Mane 6 that only have their most basic traits set in stone on one appendage, and a shitty, preachy, issue-peddling narrative that has priority over progression an consistency on the other. You wanna shuffle the priorities in this pyramid? Then I am not the right opponent.

 

[BornAgainBrony 2,397]

1 hour ago, Goat-kun said:

The only things that have any value are the characters' looks and most basic quirks that people can identify them by. These will be kept relatively consistent for the sake of marketing. It's not important whether that brushable RD figure has memories from the first season or the last. Show RD role is to remind people that she exists, that she is totes cool, and that they should buy her. You have a problem that she acts like in S01 or worse? Is it influencing sales? Probably not, so who cares.

So you're saying that FiM just randomly stopped being a project that was trying to accomplish something that served more than bare-minimum capitalistic profiteering?

Hasbro and the studio have butted heads over this on more than one occasion. It used to happen between them and Lauren as well. I will say this though, Dash didn't become the favorite that way. She somehow managed to figure out a way to be cool AND not be completely insensitive (wow, what a novel concept).

Sure there have been episodes with this problem in the past but they felt more like isolated incidents. To suggest that the studio stopped caring NOW... well that just doesn't make much sense. At the point in a show where writers usually try to go above and beyond everything they've done before?

Regardless there's simply no reason that both the show's message AND character integrity can't be maintained, since it was done quite well (most of the time) for more than enough seasons. Bringing in the villains actually should have made this much easier.

[Goat-kun 2,527]

On 9/4/2019 at 6:45 PM, BornAgainBrony said:

So you're saying that FiM just randomly stopped being a project that was trying to accomplish something that served more than bare-minimum capitalistic profiteering?

Sure there have been episodes with this problem in the past but they felt more like isolated incidents. To suggest that the studio stopped caring NOW... well that just doesn't make much sense. At the point in a show where writers usually try to go above and beyond everything they've done before?

It never was anything else. This is its primary function. And since it isn't derived from a work of some author that did care about their world it will never achieve anything beyond its primary function in the long run. Running an IP is a one person job. The moment big wigs and a bunch of "creatives" gets involved is the moment it fails. Their "above and beyond" is just Tuesday.

 

Oh, they do care alright. Care for the wrong thing. They've been constantly putting Friendship issues before characters.

On 9/4/2019 at 6:45 PM, BornAgainBrony said:

Hasbro and the studio have butted heads over this on more than one occasion. It used to happen between them and Lauren as well. I will say this though, Dash didn't become the favorite that way. She somehow managed to figure out a way to be cool AND not be completely insensitive (wow, what a novel concept).

What if I told you that this behavior is not a problem when it comes to a character's popularity?

The problem arises when you want to use character traits for issue peddling. Without this RD would become quite similar to many popular anime MCs with her brash devil-may-care behavior and a heart of gold. Damn shame.

On 9/4/2019 at 6:45 PM, BornAgainBrony said:

Regardless there's simply no reason that both the show's message AND character integrity can't be maintained, since it was done quite well (most of the time) for more than enough seasons. Bringing in the villains actually should have made this much easier.

There is no reason why they can't. There are plenty of aforementioned reasons why they don't.

P.S: Oh, come on. You guys were the ones who claimed that character integrity was not maintained and now you want to brush it all off with "it's K most of the time"?

[Lucky Bolt 35,062]

I agree, she was not. She was as Rainbow Dash as Rainbow Dash can be. 

[BornAgainBrony 2,397]

23 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

It never was anything else. This is its primary function. And since it isn't derived from a work of some author that did care about their world it will never achieve anything beyond its primary function in the long run. Running an IP is a one person job. The moment big wigs and a bunch of "creatives" gets involved is the moment it fails. Their "above and beyond" is just Tuesday.

Oh, they do care alright. Care for the wrong thing. They've been constantly putting Friendship issues before characters.

What if I told you that this behavior is not a problem when it comes to a character's popularity?

P.S: Oh, come on. You guys were the ones who claimed that character integrity was not maintained and now you want to brush it all off with "it's K most of the time"?

A lot of shows have that as their primary function without running into this problem. More common with cartoons than adult entertainment but a lot of great shows have come and gone that only existed to sell toys.

If behavior doesn't impact character popularity, character development would be far easier than it is.

Depends on the degree with which the integrity is is ruined. There's a big difference between a hero failing to helping an old lady across the street, and doing so if she specifically pulls them aside and asks for help.

However, I'm now not QUITE as angry about this episode as I was. I can at least appreciate what they were trying to do. I'm realizing more and more that the problem isn't THAT Dash screwed up, but why. Rainbow Dash in this episode and Twilight in "Trivial Pursuit" screwed up over... well... trivial things that were well beneath them. They felt ridiculously forced. Had the characters been given better conflicts (a local trivia contest? Seriously?), they wouldn't have seemed like such big jerks. Comparatively... (spoilers for the two most recent episodes)

Spoiler

Fluttershy's behavior in "She Talks to Angel" and now Rarity in "Dragon Dropped" felt much more natural and believable. They were emotional challenges more worthy of where the characters are in their growth.

 

[Goat-kun 2,527]

40 minutes ago, BornAgainBrony said:

A lot of shows have that as their primary function without running into this problem. More common with cartoons than adult entertainment but a lot of great shows have come and gone that only existed to sell toys.

If behavior doesn't impact character popularity, character development would be far easier than it is.

Depends on the degree with which the integrity is is ruined. There's a big difference between a hero failing to helping an old lady across the street, and doing so if she specifically pulls them aside and asks for help.

However, I'm now not QUITE as angry about this episode as I was. I can at least appreciate what they were trying to do. I'm realizing more and more that the problem isn't THAT Dash screwed up, but why. Rainbow Dash in this episode and Twilight in "Trivial Pursuit" screwed up over... well... trivial things that were well beneath them. They felt ridiculously forced. Had the characters been given better conflicts (a local trivia contest? Seriously?), they wouldn't have seemed like such big jerks. Comparatively... (spoilers for the two most recent episodes)

  Reveal hidden contents

Fluttershy's behavior in "She Talks to Angel" and now Rarity in "Dragon Dropped" felt much more natural and believable. They were emotional challenges more worthy of where the characters are in their growth.

 

Would, could ... They didn't do it. Possibilities cannot change reality.

 

Behavior does indeed affect a character's popularity; it's just not affecting it in the way some Bronies would have you believe.

 

The problem with Bronies and our glorious writers is that we are too afraid to admit that the whole concept of FIM is utter dog feces that is keeping Mane 6 down in the gutter. I mean, even Goblin Slayer is doing friendship better than this show cause "normal" non-western creatives are just trying to imitate human behavior rather than trying to create Friendship laws or push an agenda. So we'll be having Bronies crawling back onto the fence only to fall back onto their hurt assess over and over again while constantly ensuring their fellows that they are not in fact displeased with the handling of this IP.

 

P.S: I didn't see what Rarity fans saw in the latest episode cause I've always regarded Rarity as a selfish bitch with random displays of generosity instead of the other way around

 

[BornAgainBrony 2,397]

2 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

Would, could ... They didn't do it. Possibilities cannot change reality.

The problem with Bronies and our glorious writers is that we are too afraid to admit that the whole concept of FIM is utter dog feces that is keeping Mane 6 down in the gutter. I mean, even Goblin Slayer is doing friendship better than this show cause "normal" non-western creatives are just trying to imitate human behavior rather than trying to create Friendship laws or push an agenda.

It changes the reality that you keep pushing. You keep blaming the faults of the show on the friendship message even though we both seem to agree that a different approach to writing would enable the two attributes of the show to co-exist just fine. Since you regularly speak of it with a kind of vile disdain that makes it feel like someone blasphemed against your personal deity of... social darwinism or libertarianism or something, it sounds more like you're just obsessed with inventing weird ways of attacking the show's message. If FiM has no meaning in the real world (I don't agree with that, but as far as this debate is concerned, that question is irrelevant), it doesn't mean it ruins the story. The logic you're using to put all the blame on Harmony could just as easily be employed to make the claim that it's impossible to use a flat Earth as the setting for a story simply because Earth isn't actually flat. Heck, you could make a show that condemns the very notion of society and if you utilize the world's rules properly, you could get it to make sense.

[Goat-kun 2,527]

1 hour ago, BornAgainBrony said:

It changes the reality that you keep pushing. You keep blaming the faults of the show on the friendship message even though we both seem to agree that a different approach to writing would enable the two attributes of the show to co-exist just fine. Since you regularly speak of it with a kind of vile disdain that makes it feel like someone blasphemed against your personal deity of... social darwinism or libertarianism or something, it sounds more like you're just obsessed with inventing weird ways of attacking the show's message. If FiM has no meaning in the real world (I don't agree with that, but as far as this debate is concerned, that question is irrelevant), it doesn't mean it ruins the story. The logic you're using to put all the blame on Harmony could just as easily be employed to make the claim that it's impossible to use a flat Earth as the setting for a story simply because Earth isn't actually flat. Heck, you could make a show that condemns the very notion of society and if you utilize the world's rules properly, you could get it to make sense.

You misunderstood. Have I not talked enough about the reason for its failure in the character department? It's not a weird premise that is at fault. Harmony is not at fault either. It is the lack of simple humanity. The lack of "hey, that's just stupid" restraint. That itself would still not be a problem when envisioning inhuman characters, yet ponies are noting but substitutes for humans. When one puts a narrative of Friendship lessons before logic of character progression and reaction derived from one's hopefully adequate understanding of humanity, then one's writing of those characters will be shit.

 

See, I'm talking about a specific reason why Friendship and good character writing cannot exist in FIM while claiming that friendship and good character writing do indeed coexist in so many other shows. You are just saying they need to write better. Well, they can't. Not with their current approach.

[BornAgainBrony 2,397]

33 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

You misunderstood. Have I not talked enough about the reason for its failure in the character department? It's not a weird premise that is at fault. Harmony is not at fault either. It is the lack of simple humanity. The lack of "hey, that's just stupid" restraint. That itself would still not be a problem when envisioning inhuman characters, yet ponies are noting but substitutes for humans. When one puts a narrative of Friendship lessons before logic of character progression and reaction derived from one's hopefully adequate understanding of humanity, then one's writing of those characters will be shit.

See, I'm talking about a specific reason why Friendship and good character writing cannot exist in FIM while claiming that friendship and good character writing do indeed coexist in so many other shows. You are just saying they need to write better. Well, they can't. Not with their current approach.

 

Ohhh, alright. Yeah it was sounding like things had gone off on a weird tangent. This is exactly why I felt like things really hit their stride best in Season 4. Too preachy or not (and there were ways they could've made it less preachy too if they wanted) the Cutie Map added a pretty cool (even if not entirely original) layer of depth to the purpose of the Elements. Instead of just being magical girls who randomly get called upon to do some serious military work, it gave purpose to their daily interactions, a job that went beyond shooting rainbows at elite bosses. Why they did away with that, I just can't imagine. It's funny with all this talk about they're just not interested in working harder to tell better stories. Having the cutie map around actually made writing much easier. Not just providing a convenient excuse to teach lessons, but also a "star gate" plot device to randomly send them off to strange new places.

The only thing I can think of though about why that part of the mission got lost, is once the transfer of power was going to be given to Twilight, the role of the Mane 6 was instantly changed from one of moral compass to one of governing. Twilight, from the perspective of narrative is no longer the Princess of Friendship, but simply a Princess in the conventional Earth sense (future Queen as we would call it). This seems to have rubbed off on everything, reaching a point where the writers have completely forgotten why Harmony chose these six in the first place. Even the Young 6 who were randomly called by the map have no chance of it happening again now, after it seemed so obvious that they were the next generation to take up the mantle. This is something I truly intend to ask one of the head DHX honchos at a con if I ever have the opportunity.

[Early Sunsets 2,106]

Other than the whole "Rainbow forgot what loyalty was" part, she was pretty in-character, yes. It's the fact that she needed to be reminded what loyalty was that made her OOC, at least somewhat.

[Goat-kun 2,527]

15 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

Ohhh, alright. Yeah it was sounding like things had gone off on a weird tangent. This is exactly why I felt like things really hit their stride best in Season 4. Too preachy or not (and there were ways they could've made it less preachy too if they wanted) the Cutie Map added a pretty cool (even if not entirely original) layer of depth to the purpose of the Elements. Instead of just being magical girls who randomly get called upon to do some serious military work, it gave purpose to their daily interactions, a job that went beyond shooting rainbows at elite bosses. Why they did away with that, I just can't imagine. It's funny with all this talk about they're just not interested in working harder to tell better stories. Having the cutie map around actually made writing much easier. Not just providing a convenient excuse to teach lessons, but also a "star gate" plot device to randomly send them off to strange new places.

The only thing I can think of though about why that part of the mission got lost, is once the transfer of power was going to be given to Twilight, the role of the Mane 6 was instantly changed from one of moral compass to one of governing. Twilight, from the perspective of narrative is no longer the Princess of Friendship, but simply a Princess in the conventional Earth sense (future Queen as we would call it). This seems to have rubbed off on everything, reaching a point where the writers have completely forgotten why Harmony chose these six in the first place. Even the Young 6 who were randomly called by the map have no chance of it happening again now, after it seemed so obvious that they were the next generation to take up the mantle. This is something I truly intend to ask one of the head DHX honchos at a con if I ever have the opportunity.

You think that the Map is a product of good writing? They needed a reason for Mane 6 to visit some of the lamest fantasy world locations ever conceived so they made one up. And still we got issue peddling before everything else. Or one could do what any normal writer would and send Mane 6 on an Equestria-wide trip for a season. No magical trinket required whatsoever. Now here's where things get murky. The order to utilize the Sparkly-Sparky Super Crystal Princess Castle could have come from the top; however, without the Friendship issues one could still use some weird magical Map for far more interesting things. All bad things point back to FIM's premise.

 

That's strange considering that Celestia was pretty well-versed in Friendship, and they did try to depict Twilight as the next grand Friendship schemer with her giving that stupid cheerleading order to RD. I believe it has something to do with the one-lesson-per-episode compulsion but you go ask some honcho if you can. Try not to be too direct though. Something simple like "What was your goal with Mane 6?" as an overture and when they tell you the usual crap use "Then why were they not actually teaching others instead of being constantly taught themselves?" for the takedown strike

[BornAgainBrony 2,397]

On 9/8/2019 at 1:19 PM, Goat-kun said:

You think that the Map is a product of good writing? They needed a reason for Mane 6 to visit some of the lamest fantasy world locations ever conceived so they made one up. And still we got issue peddling before everything else. Or one could do what any normal writer would and send Mane 6 on an Equestria-wide trip for a season. No magical trinket required whatsoever. Now here's where things get murky. The order to utilize the Sparkly-Sparky Super Crystal Princess Castle could have come from the top; however, without the Friendship issues one could still use some weird magical Map for far more interesting things. All bad things point back to FIM's premise.

That's strange considering that Celestia was pretty well-versed in Friendship, and they did try to depict Twilight as the next grand Friendship schemer with her giving that stupid cheerleading order to RD. I believe it has something to do with the one-lesson-per-episode compulsion but you go ask some honcho if you can. Try not to be too direct though. Something simple like "What was your goal with Mane 6?" as an overture and when they tell you the usual crap use "Then why were they not actually teaching others instead of being constantly taught themselves?" for the takedown strike

Well, you're the one who once pointed out that this is a universe slowly becoming ruled over by a deity. Whether you like said deity or not, it's interesting. All the elements of a "faith" are realistically there, and we wouldn't have had that without the map. And I at least like it more than that Twilight hologram we got in S9. It seemed cooler when the tree had far more limited ways to communicate and it was left to the characters, and us, to figure out what it was trying to accomplish. Instead of just being Fighters who hung out between battles, the M6 passed an Excalibur test and became Paladins, and they even got a nice round table to sit around. If anything it's one of the few times the preachiness of a show was actually set up to make some kind of SENSE. The lessons weren't passive like characters in a commercial teaching the audience about detergent, the characters were consciously aware that they were trying to deliver a message. And it works because we know there is some kind of an entity trying to push things along a given path, and giving the 'mortals' tools they can use to help further it along. A lot of time was spent developing its history and growth, arguably more than any other element in the show. It's been around longer than Celestia and Luna have been rulers. It's the only arc that has spanned the entire series, and it was indeed is a story arc. It didn't get lost until S9.

I'm sure they would have loved to take something like the movie and do it instead as a season-long adventure, but too many companies are afraid to do that these days, especially with kids shows. They want every episode to stand well enough on its own so anyone can jump in at any time and not be lost, or (heaven forbid) an avid watcher missed an episode or two. This is one of the things G1 handled well. Their "seasons" were more like a long chain of mini-series.

[Ganondox 899]

On 8/27/2019 at 11:28 PM, Shady Mist said:

Rainbow Dash was not out of character in "2 4 6 Greaaat". Rainbow isn't into cheer leading mostly because she sees it as to girly but just cheering  for a friend is different. She mostly only knows cheering from her parents when they were cheering from the sidelines and what she knows by them is just the basics, so just teaching Fluttershy the basics of cheering is for the sidelines. Even in season 4 "Rainbow Falls" yes Twilght and Pinkie were wearing cheerleader outfits and were cheering for Ponyville but still they were just cheering not cheer leading, even with those outfits. Rainbow also looked uncomfortable when the 2 cheerleaders for Cloudsdale were cheering around her she only smiled a little for those 2 before she returned to the Ponyville team. Rainbow Dash is a tomboy being into sports, but not the cheerleaders and doesn't pay attention and/or as she said in "2 4 6 Greaaat" ponies get snacks during it. She never has been interested into cheer leading and only the basics of cheering in general but nothing about the overall process of cheer leading makes sense.

The issue I see with this reasoning is that Rainbow Dash's job is more similar to cheerleading than it is to a competitive sport. 

[Goat-kun 2,527]

14 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

Well, you're the one who once pointed out that this is a universe slowly becoming ruled over by a deity. Whether you like said deity or not, it's interesting. All the elements of a "faith" are realistically there, and we wouldn't have had that without the map. And I at least like it more than that Twilight hologram we got in S9. It seemed cooler when the tree had far more limited ways to communicate and it was left to the characters, and us, to figure out what it was trying to accomplish. Instead of just being Fighters who hung out between battles, the M6 passed an Excalibur test and became Paladins, and they even got a nice round table to sit around. If anything it's one of the few times the preachiness of a show was actually set up to make some kind of SENSE. The lessons weren't passive like characters in a commercial teaching the audience about detergent, the characters were consciously aware that they were trying to deliver a message. And it works because we know there is some kind of an entity trying to push things along a given path, and giving the 'mortals' tools they can use to help further it along. A lot of time was spent developing its history and growth, arguably more than any other element in the show. It's been around longer than Celestia and Luna have been rulers. It's the only arc that has spanned the entire series, and it was indeed is a story arc. It didn't get lost until S9.

Then you'll be even more excited when Lilies & Asphodels manual comes out

 

Still, it's just fanon. We're talking meta. I do believe you have fallen into the Luna fan trap, but you've done it with the Tree. And I don't think H-Bro would be very pleased with this particular fanon. Go ahead. Ask the honchos about the deity that's trying to (peacefully & for the greater good) take over the world. Go ask anyone. But I am glad that it's interesting.

 

Them being aware of a message doesn't make the whole message premise any better. It still very much shows that they're selling detergent. They're waving the product right before our eyes. And is this whole premise even fun as it is once you remove fanon and it ends up being a MapGuffin with boring lesson fodder locales? I'm not convinced.

14 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

I'm sure they would have loved to take something like the movie and do it instead as a season-long adventure, but too many companies are afraid to do that these days, especially with kids shows. They want every episode to stand well enough on its own so anyone can jump in at any time and not be lost, or (heaven forbid) an avid watcher missed an episode or two. This is one of the things G1 handled well. Their "seasons" were more like a long chain of mini-series.

Meanwhile in anime ...

Edited September 10, 2019 by Goat-kun
Being X

[BornAgainBrony 2,397]

12 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

Still, it's just fanon. We're talking meta. I do believe you have fallen into the Luna fan trap, but you've done it with the Tree. And I don't think H-Bro would be very pleased with this particular fanon. Go ahead. Ask the honchos about the deity that's trying to (peacefully & for the greater good) take over the world. Go ask anyone. But I am glad that it's interesting.

Them being aware of a message doesn't make the whole message premise any better. It still very much shows that they're selling detergent. They're waving the product right before our eyes. And is this whole premise even fun as it is once you remove fanon and it ends up being a MapGuffin with boring lesson fodder locales? I'm not convinced.

Given how much of the show is rooted in mythology of numerous cultures, would it really be that weird? Pieces of religion are all over this universe, characters who command the heavens, at least one character who actually is an ancient Earth god, and do we even need to get started on Tartarus? The writers at the very least weren't at all worried about getting attacked for promoting Paganism, Harry Potter-style (it was the religious right flipping out that got 4chan curious about watching the show in the beginning). So this is really just more of the same. Nobody seemed to care when Gaia created Captain Planet to teach kiddies about making sure litter goes into the trash can instead of the river. Whether or not they literally wanted to create some kind of "god wants us to be nice to each other" story, or just drew inspiration from those stories, that's anyone's guess. It's pretty likely the latter at least. One of the most famous religions on the planet had god appear in the form of a talking bush. It gave a man a weapon powerful enough to bring down tyrants, and then tasked him with spreading its message to the corners of the world. One could write a pretty long essay on this if they wanted. Tim Burton once taught an entire college course going into this kind of thing with comic books and their parallels to classic literature and ancient religions.

But anyway, we can at least derive that the tree is more powerful than the Alicorns, since Celestia had a thousand years to try and remaster the Elements and couldn't do so. Or you know, just figure out a way to 'hack' her way into the tree to recover it. None of that happened, so clearly they're playing by the tree's rules. How much more powerful can you get than ponified sun-god, Ra? Then Sombra outright murdered the thing and it came back to life even more glorious than it was before.

Sure, all of this could be a wild accident. I rather doubt it though. But then I have heard that DHX made it a point to NOT spell out every little thing for the very reason this discussion is even happening. There's an old quote, and I can't remember who said it, but it always stuck in my mind. Someone was talking about surviving fandoms like Star Wars (back during the 90's when there wasn't much content) Star Trek during its hiatus, maybe Firefly. It went something like, "Spell everything out for the audience and you'll have their attention for the length of your project. Keep some things unanswered and you'll have their attention twenty years later."

Is it fun? Well if you hate the message, probably not. But then, it's pretty safe to say that the majority of viewers DO like the message. A lot of folks are getting more out of this story than cute Ponies and sorcery. Were they not, this fandom probably wouldn't be even half of what it turned into.

[Goat-kun 2,527]

2 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

Given how much of the show is rooted in mythology of numerous cultures, would it really be that weird? Pieces of religion are all over this universe, characters who command the heavens, at least one character who actually is an ancient Earth god, and do we even need to get started on Tartarus? The writers at the very least weren't at all worried about getting attacked for promoting Paganism, Harry Potter-style (it was the religious right flipping out that got 4chan curious about watching the show in the beginning). So this is really just more of the same. Nobody seemed to care when Gaia created Captain Planet to teach kiddies about making sure litter goes into the trash can instead of the river. Whether or not they literally wanted to create some kind of "god wants us to be nice to each other" story, or just drew inspiration from those stories, that's anyone's guess. It's pretty likely the latter at least. One of the most famous religions on the planet had god appear in the form of a talking bush. It gave a man a weapon powerful enough to bring down tyrants, and then tasked him with spreading its message to the corners of the world. One could write a pretty long essay on this if they wanted. Tim Burton once taught an entire college course going into this kind of thing with comic books and their parallels to classic literature and ancient religions.

But anyway, we can at least derive that the tree is more powerful than the Alicorns, since Celestia had a thousand years to try and remaster the Elements and couldn't do so. Or you know, just figure out a way to 'hack' her way into the tree to recover it. None of that happened, so clearly they're playing by the tree's rules. How much more powerful can you get than ponified sun-god, Ra? Then Sombra outright murdered the thing and it came back to life even more glorious than it was before.

Sure, all of this could be a wild accident. I rather doubt it though. But then I have heard that DHX made it a point to NOT spell out every little thing for the very reason this discussion is even happening. There's an old quote, and I can't remember who said it, but it always stuck in my mind. Someone was talking about surviving fandoms like Star Wars (back during the 90's when there wasn't much content) Star Trek during its hiatus, maybe Firefly. It went something like, "Spell everything out for the audience and you'll have their attention for the length of your project. Keep some things unanswered and you'll have their attention twenty years later."

So you do not understand my mythos at all. How disappointing. You have mixed classic mythology with a far more grounded concept that stands against this Harmony of yours. It is a concept in the domain of our core beliefs. For every such design like that of Fanon Harmony the folks wish not for its champion but for a hero that can make it bleed.

2 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

Is it fun? Well if you hate the message, probably not. But then, it's pretty safe to say that the majority of viewers DO like the message. A lot of folks are getting more out of this story than cute Ponies and sorcery. Were they not, this fandom probably wouldn't be even half of what it turned into.

And when you yourself have demonstrated that illusions come naturally to any kind of fan. Solace for a frail heart can come from anywhere. Use the Bible. Use a rock. But remove ponies and pray for Bronies. Then your prayer will go unanswered. Even those with claims like yours would forsake it. And EQG? Imagine launching it without FIM.

 

And to save both of us some time, let me answer your future reply with: It's not really a niche preference. Luna fans have not only created an illusion of their favorite character, they have made it in a way that went against authority. You need a hero! You're holding out for a hero 'til the end of the light!

[BornAgainBrony 2,397]

40 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

So you do not understand my mythos at all. How disappointing. You have mixed classic mythology with a far more grounded concept that stands against this Harmony of yours. It is a concept in the domain of our core beliefs. For every such design like that of Fanon Harmony the folks wish not for its champion but for a hero that can make it bleed.

Yes I do. Just because we stand on opposing sides on our opinions of an entity, doesn't mean we disagree that said entity is there, or about what it's trying to do. I simply an not a nihilist (tried it once, didn't work), so of course my opinion of Harmony is not going to be the same as yours. Where we seem to be dividing here is on an entity's moral alignment, not what it is or what it's trying to accomplish (at least on the surface.)

As for "mixing classic mythology with a much more grounded concept," pfft... all of the stories have always been intertwined with each other. You think I'm not aware that the most popular stories today aren't the original versions? Fruit of the Knowledge of Good And Evil / Pandora's Box / Fire of Prometheus as one example. You can trace the big man in red of the holiday season back to the Holly King and All Father Odin; the midnight flight of 8 deer to the Wild Hunt and Slepnir. I'm no stranger to these things. I simply used the most contemporary point of reference.

40 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

Use the Bible. Use a rock. But remove ponies and pray for Bronies. Then your prayer will go unanswered. Even those with claims like yours would forsake it. 

Alright, now you lost me. I don't even know what you're trying to say with this. Did you seriously just try to inject atheism on Earth into a debate about an entity that exists in a world filled with magical beings?

I'll withhold stating this outright because I don't know if this is where you're trying to go with it or not, but while I've been standing on the side of possibilities, you seem to keep coming at me as if you have some monopoly on truth. Did this discussion just somehow transfer over into this reality with a question of whether or not there should be a legit Harmony Cult? Sorry. I'll just deliver this tongue-in-cheek then.

Harmony can beat up Cthulhu.

[Goat-kun 2,527]

20 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

Yes I do. Just because we stand on opposing sides on our opinions of an entity, doesn't mean we disagree that said entity is there, or about what it's trying to do. I simply an not a nihilist (tried it once, didn't work), so of course my opinion of Harmony is not going to be the same as yours. Where we seem to be dividing here is on an entity's moral alignment, not what it is or what it's trying to accomplish (at least on the surface.)

As for "mixing classic mythology with a much more grounded concept," pfft... all of the stories have always been intertwined with each other. You think I'm not aware that the most popular stories today aren't the original versions? Fruit of the Knowledge of Good And Evil / Pandora's Box / Fire of Prometheus as one example. You can trace the big man in red of the holiday season back to the Holly King and All Father Odin; the midnight flight of 8 deer to the Wild Hunt and Slepnir. I'm no stranger to these things. I simply used the most contemporary point of reference.

Yet you still used all the wrong references.  Firstly, the gods I use have nothing in common with any of the deities you've mentioned, but one. Secondly, I was not talking about them. I was talking more about the heroes of history and modern humanity's own heroic narrative. It is due to that narrative that Luna was what she was within the fanon: the imperfect rebel hero of the downtrodden masses that we'll never have.

 

Anyhow, let us stop this nonsense. You do not believe in such worldbuilding in FIM, do you. After all, any sparkly locale can be constructed by outsourcing its creation to a group of children. Your words, not mine. So how come you are insisting on using such elaborate fanon for FIM? All of this and for what? To claim that Rainbow Dash is not only OOC in this episode but that she is like that due to some nebulous, divine (in-show, not RL) reasons that can't possibly be related to FIM's premise.

 

20 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

Alright, now you lost me. I don't even know what you're trying to say with this. Did you seriously just try to inject atheism on Earth into a debate about an entity that exists in a world filled with magical beings?

I'll withhold stating this outright because I don't know if this is where you're trying to go with it or not, but while I've been standing on the side of possibilities, you seem to keep coming at me as if you have some monopoly on truth. Did this discussion just somehow transfer over into this reality with a question of whether or not there should be a legit Harmony Cult? Sorry. I'll just deliver this tongue-in-cheek then.

Harmony can beat up Cthulhu.

It is you who are lost. I merely mentioned that it is only natural that someone will find greater meaning in something they like.

 

P.S: Konosuba party could take on the entire FIM, both literally and figuratively

[BornAgainBrony 2,397]

6 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

Yet you still used all the wrong references.  Firstly, the gods I use have nothing in common with any of the deities you've mentioned, but one. Secondly, I was not talking about them. I was talking more about the heroes of history and modern humanity's own heroic narrative. It is due to that narrative that Luna was what she was within the fanon: the imperfect rebel hero of the downtrodden masses that we'll never have.

1. Did I really need to use the SAME ones? You treated it like it was ludicrous for me to even suggest that Harmony could be considered a divine power inspired by classic mythos. That I didn't pinpoint your specific one, so what? Wanna have a holy war about it?  A god is a god.

I'm not sure you're alluding to my own defense of Luna in another discussion, but I wasn't around for the Lunar Republic vs Solar Empire war and Luna's "God Help the Outcasts" crusade. My knowledge of it was only attained for Team Moon inspiration.

6 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

2. It can, it doesn't mean its preferred. In the context of that conversation, you were saying they were too lazy to create new places to visit, such as an undersea kingdom. I suggested that as an even cheaper solution to my preferred one which still should have been "easy enough." The entire point of that statement is that they had options. 

What I have described about Harmony isn't that elaborate at all, the exception being whether or not it's a literal god (keep in mind, Discord is - or at least WAS - Harmony's opposite). Hardly anything I've said about Harmony wasn't implied in the narrative as the creature evolved through the ages. Who knows. Harmony has moved beyond cryptic puzzlemaking and has learned how to talk, so maybe we'll get a straight answer now. But if we do, it will be much more cringeworthy than the more symbolic intentions we have now. The latter makes for a much better ghost story than if the ghost screams, "you need to find items pertaining to your elements to turn them into keys, dumbass." That's Discord's job, not Harmony's. But even he prefers to screw around and let the heroes figure it out on their own.

I never said Harmony is an excuse for Dash to be OOC in this episode. Closest I came to that is saying the behavior would make more sense if one or more of the villains were doing a bit of magical mind poisoning. 

6 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

 It is you who are lost. I merely mentioned that it is only natural that someone will find greater meaning in something they like.

3. O...k. Fair enough.

So preytell, allusions to what gods do you see in our sparkly cuddle tree?

[Goat-kun 2,527]

17 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

1. Did I really need to use the SAME ones? You treated it like it was ludicrous for me to even suggest that Harmony could be considered a divine power inspired by classic mythos. That I didn't pinpoint your specific one, so what? Wanna have a holy war about it?  A god is a god.

I'm not sure you're alluding to my own defense of Luna in another discussion, but I wasn't around for the Lunar Republic vs Solar Empire war and Luna's "God Help the Outcasts" crusade. My knowledge of it was only attained for Team Moon inspiration.

To put it simply: gods created man to rule over nature, but in the case of eldritch deities, nature created gods to rule over man. Thus the eldritch deities are as unfathomable and alien to us as is the nature itself. Pagan deities are very human and react to everything as humans would. Heck, even gods from monotheistic religions are bloody under their divine skin. Canon Harmony acts like an A.I. from one of "those" movies like I, Robot. Or like the Red Marker. Its pattern is more eldritch than it is human.

 

I used Luna cause she demonstrates that even large portions of our fandom had a tendency to go against the grand design. The original Fanon Luna was a twisted, self-inserty version of characters like Shield Hero. And I constantly use anime to remind you that there are loads of younglings out there that lean far more to the side that goes against authority of greater good. That is why your Harmony would fail if you'd try to use it the way FIM does.

17 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

What I have described about Harmony isn't that elaborate at all, the exception being whether or not it's a literal god (keep in mind, Discord is - or at least WAS - Harmony's opposite). Hardly anything I've said about Harmony wasn't implied in the narrative as the creature evolved through the ages. Who knows. Harmony has moved beyond cryptic puzzlemaking and has learned how to talk, so maybe we'll get a straight answer now. But if we do, it will be much more cringeworthy than the more symbolic intentions we have now. The latter makes for a much better ghost story than if the ghost screams, "you need to find items pertaining to your elements to turn them into keys, dumbass." That's Discord's job, not Harmony's. But even he prefers to screw around and let the heroes figure it out on their own.

I never said Harmony is an excuse for Dash to be OOC in this episode. Closest I came to that is saying the behavior would make more sense if one or more of the villains were doing a bit of magical mind poisoning.

This explanation seems quite elaborate, but what do I know. I'm probably way too cynical to understand that this is up the ally of modern kids instead of adventure and acts of heroism

 

It's about time you tell me your honest opinion: What is the non-story cause of this perceived OOCedness?

17 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

3. O...k. Fair enough.

So preytell, allusions to what gods do you see in our sparkly cuddle tree?

Have you ever played Hollow Knight?

 

[BornAgainBrony 2,397]

On 9/12/2019 at 11:43 AM, Goat-kun said:

To put it simply: gods created man to rule over nature, but in the case of eldritch deities, nature created gods to rule over man. Thus the eldritch deities are as unfathomable and alien to us as is the nature itself. Pagan deities are very human and react to everything as humans would. Heck, even gods from monotheistic religions are bloody under their divine skin. Canon Harmony acts like an A.I. from one of "those" movies like I, Robot. Or like the Red Marker. Its pattern is more eldritch than it is human.

I guess there's a place where I don't have an issue. Even when I don't agree with the motives, I can usually at least understand them. Must be all those bizarre cultures and characters that Star Trek threw at me as a kid. Speaking of similar though, The Day the Earth Stood Still. You could technically be right about an "A.I." at least in a magical sense, since the Pillars at least had SOMETHING to do with its creation. I presume you're not simply suggesting it's about nature > man because it appeared as a tree.

On 9/12/2019 at 11:43 AM, Goat-kun said:

I used Luna cause she demonstrates that even large portions of our fandom had a tendency to go against the grand design. The original Fanon Luna was a twisted, self-inserty version of characters like Shield Hero. And I constantly use anime to remind you that there are loads of younglings out there that lean far more to the side that goes against authority of greater good. That is why your Harmony would fail if you'd try to use it the way FIM does.

Nothing about Celestia's actions prompted any of this? Just rebel because she was the good guy? I find that hard to believe especially since you've already mentioned "savior of the downtrodden" regarding it, which would mean in the same fanon, Celestia might not actually have been "authority of greater good" in the first place, and a revolution started for the more usual reasons.

On 9/12/2019 at 11:43 AM, Goat-kun said:

This explanation seems quite elaborate, but what do I know. I'm probably way too cynical to understand that this is up the ally of modern kids instead of adventure and acts of heroism

It's about time you tell me your honest opinion: What is the non-story cause of this perceived OOCedness?

Have you ever played Hollow Knight?

That's why I mentioned Paladins. A kind of warrior who finds there are solutions to problems other than hitting them with a sword. And really I'm glad that the Mane 6 aren't Magical Girls in the usual sense. A battle in every episode would've been desensitizing. Having a lot of slice of life episodes where serious trouble only shows up once in a while, made those fights feel much more important.

Also heroism has degraded a LOT in the past decade or so, and it was peaking around the time FiM got started. Everything had been pushed more and more edgelord grimdark to the point that every hero was actually some mentally screwed up antihero who comes within an inch of killing anyone who even looks at them funny because (insert dark past element here). Heroism minus chivalry = villains who happen to be a bit less evil than the other villains, and that was the focus of Western action entertainment for a pretty long time. On the adventure side of things, it's discouraged with kids nowadays. Adventure means going out of the house unattended for more than 30 seconds, and we can't have that anymore, since some kind of creeper is allegedly lurking behind every single tree.

Non-story reasons? People not doing their homework and keeping in mind established lore. Again, this would have been more forgivable even just a season ago, but mostly feels like a Dash-level screwup that should have happened in season 1 or 2. For the last Rainbow Dash episode that will ever be made? Insulting to the point of being hard to believe. If someone can't find a way to focus on the positive points of a character in the midst of a farewell salute... sorry. That's abysmal. Weak writing, or some other big technical issue, such as if it turned out this had been mostly made earlier and just got finished because there was a hole in the season that needed filler.

Dagnabbit... I remember when Hollow Knight was in development and was interested but then work chaos erupted and never stopped and I had completely forgotten about that until now. Off to Steam!

[Goat-kun 2,527]

On 9/16/2019 at 9:39 AM, BornAgainBrony said:

I guess there's a place where I don't have an issue. Even when I don't agree with the motives, I can usually at least understand them. Must be all those bizarre cultures and characters that Star Trek threw at me as a kid. Speaking of similar though, The Day the Earth Stood Still. You could technically be right about an "A.I." at least in a magical sense, since the Pillars at least had SOMETHING to do with its creation. I presume you're not simply suggesting it's about nature > man because it appeared as a tree.

Star Trek is post-scarcity world issues with space humans. Eldritch gods would be the worst matchup against those who cherish ethics and intellect since their reactions to other beings aren't based on any moral code but on primal perception. If it seems useful and they have the power to do it, they'll do it. They're kinda like divine honey badgers that can pull all kinds of impossible shit. Digging a black hole in your solar system to get to some "honey" only they can perceive, making themselves a fleshy, material nest out of an entire planet's biomass cause it's comfy, that sort of stuff.

 

 

Of course, when you're writing them, the protagonists usually don't know this. They just see the senseless horror same as sentient ants would if we destroyed their nest to place a restroom on top of it. Normal humans cannot comprehend the eldritch restroom. Of course, sometimes these gods do feel like they can benefit from your willing service. They'll allow you to help build that restroom or collect their honey.

 

 

Moreover, Shub Niggurath is regarded as a primordial goddess of fertility. Classic pagan gods can be a cover. A spoonful of false humanity helps the tentacles go down.

Spoiler

This isn't even their final form.

 

And I'm doing an eldritch Harmony cause it's so damn easy to pull it off. And it enables me to destroy the entire canon while keeping everything canon. The power of eldritch magic is truly above and beyond Friendship charlatanism!

On 9/16/2019 at 9:39 AM, BornAgainBrony said:

Nothing about Celestia's actions prompted any of this? Just rebel because she was the good guy? I find that hard to believe especially since you've already mentioned "savior of the downtrodden" regarding it, which would mean in the same fanon, Celestia might not actually have been "authority of greater good" in the first place, and a revolution started for the more usual reasons.

I don't like Fanon Luna. I'm positive that the whole forum knows this by now. I'm only using this Luna to discuss how fans think.

 

 

"Greater good" is basically a code for "by any means necessary". And you would go and make a not-over-the-top version of the God Emperor - Little Girl Edition that is unironically used to push morals? Good luck.

P.S: Inb4 someone mentions that it should actually be the Tau - Little Girl Edition.

On 9/16/2019 at 9:39 AM, BornAgainBrony said:

That's why I mentioned Paladins. A kind of warrior who finds there are solutions to problems other than hitting them with a sword. And really I'm glad that the Mane 6 aren't Magical Girls in the usual sense. A battle in every episode would've been desensitizing. Having a lot of slice of life episodes where serious trouble only shows up once in a while, made those fights feel much more important.

No. They're doing it with hammer and magic instead Anyone can roll high persuasion, even warlocks and necromancers.

 

 

Right. Decades of shounen anime really prove your point, huh. Anyhow, FIM fights are badly thought out and badly choreographed. They also have a tendency to get resolved with an asspull. There's never an honest victory with a clear victor. Why? You guessed it! Its show premise! Fights in FIM are just mediocre eye candy and deleting them from the story would not change anything since they never contribute to the resolution. Now that's desensitizing.

On 9/16/2019 at 9:39 AM, BornAgainBrony said:

Also heroism has degraded a LOT in the past decade or so, and it was peaking around the time FiM got started. Everything had been pushed more and more edgelord grimdark to the point that every hero was actually some mentally screwed up antihero who comes within an inch of killing anyone who even looks at them funny because (insert dark past element here). Heroism minus chivalry = villains who happen to be a bit less evil than the other villains, and that was the focus of Western action entertainment for a pretty long time. On the adventure side of things, it's discouraged with kids nowadays. Adventure means going out of the house unattended for more than 30 seconds, and we can't have that anymore, since some kind of creeper is allegedly lurking behind every single tree.

There is good edginess and then there's Shadow the Edgehog. Know the difference. Guts (Berserk) is an example of good edgy character that goes from a young edgelord without a goal in life past fighting to a murderous black swordsman on a mission for vengeance, to a father figure/leader of a ragtag band of colorful characters. And let's not forget that edginess doesn't translate into bloodthirstiness. There are those polite priestly types who murder for some grand dream, the greater good, or in the name of god. In the end, heroism is not in the word but in the action. That is something western writers have forgotten even before FIM.

On 9/16/2019 at 9:39 AM, BornAgainBrony said:

Non-story reasons? People not doing their homework and keeping in mind established lore. Again, this would have been more forgivable even just a season ago, but mostly feels like a Dash-level screwup that should have happened in season 1 or 2. For the last Rainbow Dash episode that will ever be made? Insulting to the point of being hard to believe. If someone can't find a way to focus on the positive points of a character in the midst of a farewell salute... sorry. That's abysmal. Weak writing, or some other big technical issue, such as if it turned out this had been mostly made earlier and just got finished because there was a hole in the season that needed filler.

Dagnabbit... I remember when Hollow Knight was in development and was interested but then work chaos erupted and never stopped and I had completely forgotten about that until now. Off to Steam!

You call it being OOC. I can see RD act as a jerk; however, that is a part of RD. I can also see opportunity in such actions where Bronies and our glorious writers see only shame. There are so many popular jerks among characters. They use their jerkiness to help others which is far more entertaining than having a Goody-Goody Two Shoes unless it's a self-conscious comedy like Wander over Yonder and even that had its fair share of unrepentant jerks.

 

 

What can I say, Friendship Socialists from FIM and Steven Universe want a jerk genocide

Edited September 19, 2019 by Goat-kun
The Beast

[BornAgainBrony 2,397]

On 9/19/2019 at 8:02 AM, Goat-kun said:

Star Trek is post-scarcity world issues with space humans. Eldritch gods would be the worst matchup against those who cherish ethics and intellect since their reactions to other beings aren't based on any moral code but on primal perception. If it seems useful and they have the power to do it, they'll do it. They're kinda like divine honey badgers that can pull all kinds of impossible shit. Digging a black hole in your solar system to get to some "honey" only they can perceive, making themselves a fleshy, material nest out of an entire planet's biomass cause it's comfy, that sort of stuff.

Of course, when you're writing them, the protagonists usually don't know this. They just see the senseless horror same as sentient ants would if we destroyed their nest to place a restroom on top of it. Normal humans cannot comprehend the eldritch restroom. Of course, sometimes these gods do feel like they can benefit from your willing service. They'll allow you to help build that restroom or collect their honey.

Moreover, Shub Niggurath is regarded as a primordial goddess of fertility. Classic pagan gods can be a cover. A spoonful of false humanity helps the tentacles go down.

I was referencing Star Trek because it has some good examples of sentient life forms with motivations that are completely alien to us, and in a couple of cases simply so much more evolved that they're effectively indiscernible from gods. Deity or not though, the point is there's no reason to assume we couldn't grasp the mentality of an Eldritch god. Humans are pretty darned intuitive. At least some of them. Heck, Hitchhiker's Guide broke that concept down into simple enough terms. And your "honey" example could already arguably have happened on this planet just with one group of humans screwing over another. All you need is some old-fashioned colonialism going into foreign territory digging for gold that the locals perceive as completely worthless. Heck, Changelings come close enough to such arcane behavior. Emotions as food, or simply a conduit which makes feeding easier? Incubi and succubi? Wendigos thriving in negative energy. Xenomorphs intentionally intimidate their victims because people who are terrified at the point of insemination make for more suitable hosts. We might not like it, or might not agree with it, but that doesn't mean we can't wrap our brains around arcane natures or intent.

On 9/19/2019 at 8:02 AM, Goat-kun said:

And I'm doing an eldritch Harmony cause it's so damn easy to pull it off. And it enables me to destroy the entire canon while keeping everything canon. The power of eldritch magic is truly above and beyond Friendship charlatanism!

I don't like Fanon Luna. I'm positive that the whole forum knows this by now. I'm only using this Luna to discuss how fans think.

"Greater good" is basically a code for "by any means necessary". And you would go and make a not-over-the-top version of the God Emperor - Little Girl Edition that is unironically used to push morals? Good luck.

P.S: Inb4 someone mentions that it should actually be the Tau - Little Girl Edition.

No. They're doing it with hammer and magic instead Anyone can roll high persuasion, even warlocks and necromancers.

Well preytell then. What do you think Harmony is about, just within the context of the show? Without injecting any complex headcanon into it? Without being an eldritch god or a nature spirit (both of which are (probably) too deep for a kids show, but then this is the same kids show that decided to do a combination of 1984 & Brave New World in one episode. What is Harmony? What does it want? Why does it want it? Maybe the above-mentioned psychic vampires are sufficient enough? For once we have something that feeds on emotional energy, but is more symbiotic rather than parasitic? Either Harmony wins and everyone is happy, or the Wendigo plague wipes out the entire food chain except for bacteria, algae, some crafty rodents, and whatever is on the ocean floor.

Would they be as likely to though if they hadn't been sent off on some sort of "holy mission?" Taking the Hearthswarming story as a basis, international peace is a relatively new concept in pony culture. What's so weird about "Friendship" as a message anyhow? It's a pretty common thing in human history, with varying degrees of "or else."

On 9/19/2019 at 8:02 AM, Goat-kun said:

You call it being OOC. I can see RD act as a jerk; however, that is a part of RD. I can also see opportunity in such actions where Bronies and our glorious writers see only shame. There are so many popular jerks among characters. They use their jerkiness to help others which is far more entertaining than having a Goody-Goody Two Shoes unless it's a self-conscious comedy like Wander over Yonder and even that had its fair share of unrepentant jerks.

Dash wasn't helping anyone by being a jerk in that episode though. Or Twilight in "Trivial." Now, conveniently, Daring Doubt came along shortly thereafter and showed flaws in Rainbow Dash without her going OOC. Loyalty, like romantic love, is often too blind for its own good.

[Goat-kun 2,527]

19 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

I was referencing Star Trek because it has some good examples of sentient life forms with motivations that are completely alien to us, and in a couple of cases simply so much more evolved that they're effectively indiscernible from gods. Deity or not though, the point is there's no reason to assume we couldn't grasp the mentality of an Eldritch god. Humans are pretty darned intuitive. At least some of them. Heck, Hitchhiker's Guide broke that concept down into simple enough terms. And your "honey" example could already arguably have happened on this planet just with one group of humans screwing over another. All you need is some old-fashioned colonialism going into foreign territory digging for gold that the locals perceive as completely worthless. Heck, Changelings come close enough to such arcane behavior. Emotions as food, or simply a conduit which makes feeding easier? Incubi and succubi? Wendigos thriving in negative energy. Xenomorphs intentionally intimidate their victims because people who are terrified at the point of insemination make for more suitable hosts. We might not like it, or might not agree with it, but that doesn't mean we can't wrap our brains around arcane natures or intent.

Foolishness! I am the creator. I am the architect. Of course I know everything about my eldritch gods. They are beyond comprehension of mortal characters. Eldritch gods can be boiled down to: alien mind, divine power, otherworldly existence. That is what makes them hard to understand.

 

And of all the things you could have mentioned you've missed Stranger Things. Mind Flayer can easily be regarded as a lesser deity of eldritch characteristics.

19 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

Well preytell then. What do you think Harmony is about, just within the context of the show? Without injecting any complex headcanon into it? Without being an eldritch god or a nature spirit (both of which are (probably) too deep for a kids show, but then this is the same kids show that decided to do a combination of 1984 & Brave New World in one episode. What is Harmony? What does it want? Why does it want it? Maybe the above-mentioned psychic vampires are sufficient enough? For once we have something that feeds on emotional energy, but is more symbiotic rather than parasitic? Either Harmony wins and everyone is happy, or the Wendigo plague wipes out the entire food chain except for bacteria, algae, some crafty rodents, and whatever is on the ocean floor.

A vehicle for toy sets with no further value. The show itself has no stable lore. It is only made concrete through blind faith of fanboys and hollow words of our glorious writers. I do not seek to explain canon. I seek to bend it to my will. One will encounter equal opposition in both instances, so why not go for the fun option.

19 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

Would they be as likely to though if they hadn't been sent off on some sort of "holy mission?" Taking the Hearthswarming story as a basis, international peace is a relatively new concept in pony culture. What's so weird about "Friendship" as a message anyhow? It's a pretty common thing in human history, with varying degrees of "or else."

Anyhow, friendship is great. FIM's execution is bad. If friendship is a choice made in an attempt to better one's material living conditions, then it is no choice at all. It's like the Chinese social credit system with writers being the Communist Party. No political movement or idea should have any hold on relationships. Not even those that advocate for world peace.

19 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

Dash wasn't helping anyone by being a jerk in that episode though. Or Twilight in "Trivial." Now, conveniently, Daring Doubt came along shortly thereafter and showed flaws in Rainbow Dash without her going OOC. Loyalty, like romantic love, is often too blind for its own good.

And that's exactly my problem. She should have been helping ponies while being a jerk. It's a part of her personality. She should have been allowed to spread her wings and be the best jerk she could have been.