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Debate Symposium Closure


Jeric

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5 hours ago, You said:

There is a huge difference between being somewhat skeptical of a source for a given article or subject, or instantly smelling the source is fishy (I am pretty sure you can guess some in your mind).

Yes, but there's a spectrum between "almost everyone agrees this is a credible source" and "almost everyone agrees this is a not a credible source". There probably would be some sources in the middle that would cause the most arguments about their credibility and could make the forum appear biased.

5 hours ago, Twilight Dirac said:

A lot of posters seem to open revile this section of the forums, but I have always found a twisted beauty in the debate pit.

This is interesting to me, the debate pit was one section among many and people could just not visit it if they did not want to, leaving the people there to debate and argue over whatever, maybe even being hostile to each other.

I guess someone could create a discord server or some forum specifically for MLPF members to debate in it and one that the staff of this site would not see.

Well, at least I wasn't involved in any active debates there for a while, so I don't have to feel like I was prevented from replying etc.

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Personally I would have jus made the rules stricter even if that meant political bias or whatever. But I guess moderation issues. I think things are worse atm cuz all of the world events people are riled up about.

It was probably one of the more civil debating forums tbh haha not saying it's great but these kinda things tend to escalate.

I do like to talk about serious topics tho but maybe less political and more just serious discussion based? Like philosophy. Idk if that will be allowed anymore.

But hey I come here for the ponies I guess lol

3 hours ago, Pentium100 said:

I guess someone could create a discord server or some forum specifically for MLPF members to debate in it and one that the staff of this site would not see.

Yea that is always a possibility 

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Honestly, good riddance. The place is a toxic cesspool continuously abused to start inane arguments and enforce biases and confine the political discussion to an echo chamber that discourages viewpoints it disagrees with.

 

Even if I think the OP doesn't entirely address the real problem and in fact denies the biggest problem is even a thing at all.

Edited by Spoopy
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13 hours ago, Passion said:

Maybe it will not solve the issues, but if the staff cannot currently afford to treat the wound, it's better to get rid of the limb altogether than let it fester. Every coin has two sides. What issues arise with it will be dealt with in time, but one seemingly major issue will be resolved for now.

Fair enough. Though it does make one wonder what would happen if such an issue would arise due to a fandom-related topic. This deletion is a precedent now, and not a very good one as it was done due to lack of mental fortitude. The application of such band aids will only get easier from here on out. Personally, I had less problems dealing with extreme socialists that advocated for street violence than I had with Luna fans. In fact, me and some of them rabid lefties actually had more productive conversations than I ever had with a Luna fan, just saying.

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19 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

Fair enough. Though it does make one wonder what would happen if such an issue would arise due to a fandom-related topic. This deletion is a precedent now, and not a very good one as it was done due to lack of mental fortitude. The application of such band aids will only get easier from here on out. Personally, I had less problems dealing with extreme socialists that advocated for street violence than I had with Luna fans. In fact, me and some of them rabid lefties actually had more productive conversations than I ever had with a Luna fan, just saying.

 

I mean, the symposium had very little, if nothing to do with mlp in the first place. That's not the point of it. 

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2 hours ago, Scar said:

I mean, the symposium had very little, if nothing to do with mlp in the first place. That's not the point of it. 

That is true, but your argument was about the behavior, was it not? If it's about topics then you should advocate for removal of Beyond Equestria and RP section. Heck, I'm currently more active in the RP section where I run a Russian trap villain from MHA, and that has nothing to do with MLP. We cannot ignore that this site is more than just a fan forum for pony discussions.

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1 hour ago, Goat-kun said:

That is true, but your argument was about the behavior, was it not? If it's about topics then you should advocate for removal of Beyond Equestria and RP section. Heck, I'm currently more active in the RP section where I run a Russian trap villain from MHA, and that has nothing to do with MLP. We cannot ignore that this site is more than just a fan forum for pony discussions.

 

It is about the behavior and the topics. Those sections aren't causing drama, divisive and negative discussion, etc. I am surprised you would even say something like that.

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1 hour ago, Scar said:

It is about the behavior and the topics. Those sections aren't causing drama, divisive and negative discussion, etc. I am surprised you would even say something like that.

So, hypothetically, if a prominent Luna fanboy would passionately imply that you're being a bad person cause you're not going along with their fanon Luna OC narrative you'd be completely fine with it since it's not happening in debate pit? Of course, doing it outright gets deleted, but there are loopholes when it comes to implications and friend list communications. If you ask me that is more toxic than debate pit where everyone is directly facing each other on the same equal footing no matter their convictions and tactics. The pony forums are a debate pit with different name and topics, and the added bonus of one-sided staff involvements.

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47 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

So, hypothetically, if a prominent Luna fanboy would passionately imply that you're being a bad person cause you're not going along with their fanon Luna OC...

Yeah, I can see how signing up to crew your "ship" to hunt down the whale that bit you is a much more balanced way to spend my time than the people who bicker about Luna.

Just because you hate fanclubs more than you hate a political party, doesn't mean the former topic actually induces more aggressive behavior than the latter.

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I think this was a good call. At certain times, I feel as if people may drop all restraints when it comes to debates, as there are a lot of touchy subjects out there, especially during these times, when the election is right around the corner. 

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As one of the more notorious users of that section, I'll leave my two cents.

While I disagree with closing the hell pit, I think it is a reasonable option given the circumstances. The mods here have every right to shape the community they host, and if that means cracking down dissenting opinions, then so be it. I'd say about 80-90% of all the conversations in that section devolved into smugness competitions (which I didn't mind) or deliberate bad faith. That being said the remaining 10% are the ones I'll miss. There is definitely some value in having a section where users can hash it out, there just needs to be rules to skin off the emotions put into it and the cull the people who are only interested in posting inflammatory/click-baity garbage.

I'll happily go be mildly provocative in other sections now. Stay gold people. B)

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12 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

Yeah, I can see how signing up to crew your "ship" to hunt down the whale that bit you is a much more balanced way to spend my time than the people who bicker about Luna.

Just because you hate fanclubs more than you hate a political party, doesn't mean the former topic actually induces more aggressive behavior than the latter.

I am the sea monster ;)

 

Anyhow, fan clubs are fine. People who like Luna are fine. The stereotypical Luna fanboy here serves to demonstrate that the dichotomy between the pit and the rest of the forums is false. Fandom drama is no better than debate pit drama, thus people who cheer such staff moves should hurry up and find another hill to die on before we're caught in another one.

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On ‎10‎/‎15‎/‎2020 at 7:51 PM, Luna the Great of all the Russias said:

@NiceVillains

I am not sure if you care, but I have saved your threads "Democratic Communism, Revolution, Socialism. Capitalism" as well as "Behavioral and environmental determinism exist"; if you want, I could PM you the content of those threads as it appears you spent quite a bit of time typing those (assuming you do not have the content of your posts saved elsewhere).

Naw its fine. My ideas of politics keeps changing, and that's part of why my knowledge stays with me because I want to make sure I am right whenever I participate but also like operating on limited information, but also sometimes need to read material anyways because some people just for some reason can't explain it in their own words why they think x is true. But yeah went on a little tangent there lol.

On ‎10‎/‎15‎/‎2020 at 1:46 PM, Scar said:

The debate section caused constant problems. Nobody can deny that. Why anyone would be here only for that one section is beyond me. If you want politics, go elsewhere. Thats pretty much what Jeric said. 

Because ponies are chill (other forums can have more vitriol or bias), forums are slower paced than chatrooms like discord, helps to generate larger ideas sometimes and people can actually read those larger ideas, on discord people are just like 'tl;dr lets argue with this wrong person over here with short fast responses instead' lol.

 

Edited by NiceVillains
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Its always been a part of the forum that I rarely visited. I have had civil discussion with people in there. Though I would avoid certain topics or stuff I didn't feel completely knowledgeable about. I have heard stories of it being really toxic. I can see why some might be sad its gone but I can also understand why it was removed. 

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3 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

Anyhow, fan clubs are fine. People who like Luna are fine. The stereotypical Luna fanboy here serves to demonstrate that the dichotomy between the pit and the rest of the forums is false. Fandom drama is no better than debate pit drama, thus people who cheer such staff moves should hurry up and find another hill to die on before we're caught in another one.

We've got a pretty big excuse to have insane fandom drama right now on the scale of the Twilicorn and Derpy conflicts, yet in the era of "Pony Life," things are considerably quiet. Definitely more quiet than DS was, and DS only had a population of around 20 regular users.

Also, "Slippery-slope" is a logical fallacy and there are none I've witnessed cling to it more frequently and religiously than people who see every form of censorship as being comparable to 1984.

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4 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

We've got a pretty big excuse to have insane fandom drama right now on the scale of the Twilicorn and Derpy conflicts, yet in the era of "Pony Life," things are considerably quiet. Definitely more quiet than DS was, and DS only had a population of around 20 regular users.

And now all the drama has magically disappear forever and G5 era will be all friendship and harmony 3Y6uKBJ.png

4 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

Also, "Slippery-slope" is a logical fallacy and there are none I've witnessed cling to it more frequently and religiously than people who see every form of censorship as being comparable to 1984.

We're interacting the same way here like we were in the pit. Show discussion won't be any different.  I imagine that the same goes for the rest of our debating buddies. It's just that instead of socialism we'll be talking about the diversity of G5 characters. Good days ahead.

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I have made about 3-4 posts in the Debate forum, usually stating I don't have an opinion. However, I do have one, I don't feel the need to fight for it. Especially not here, a forum about MLP FIM. I am happy for the change, mainly hoping the people that always keep getting offended, and push the topics way outside the borders of the debate section, need to calm down, and focus on other things while they are here. I am sure there are other places where you can voice opinions about stuff. Even the current president of the US has a place where he can talk online about politics, and other delicate things.

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I will also say that I am not convinced in the slightest that this closure is going to solve a much deeper problem on this site. People saying mean things to each other in debate threads is one thing, but what I seen was something far more problematic and direct. I get this feeling that the closure of the DP will resolve nothing in that regard.

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21 minutes ago, Kyoshi said:

I will also say that I am not convinced in the slightest that this closure is going to solve a much deeper problem on this site. People saying mean things to each other in debate threads is one thing, but what I seen was something far more problematic and direct. I get this feeling that the closure of the DP will resolve nothing in that regard.

The debate symposium was the enabler for that because controversial topics are just a way for people to shove their negativity and hate into it. Now that it is gone, you won't be seeing that here. At least I hope. I haven't seen anything like what was going on in the debate pit, outside of it.

Edited by Scar
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11 hours ago, BornAgainBrony said:

So the current situation conveniently just doesn't count.

I consider this a partial remission of a chronic disease :P Since we know its history and its triggers there is no reason to believe that it won't return in all its glory.

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I don't really get it, never actually participated in debate symposium as I had no interest in it. Yet to take it away because of those reasons while having been on this website for well as long as the site as existed having not been an issue has me think there is another reason. Negativity, hostility has no place in debates as such that should have been sent to a moderator and be moderated however if you refer to disagreeing with you or having viewpoints you deem offensive well that makes no sense to me. 

Though I do see where Jeric is coming from and I agree with, from what I have seen on it there is no debate simply people with different worldviews refusing to try to understand each other. Which is why the hostility, if anything this says more about the forums inability to discuss things so I guess like society in that regard. Of course as you can read, I do disagree with this but I do agree with the op as that is also why I never participated in that forum. Though debates are needed in society, otherwise we can't learn from each other.

Edited by Fluttershyfan94
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9 minutes ago, Fluttershyfan94 said:

moderator and be moderated however if you refer to disagreeing with you or having viewpoints you deem offensive well that makes no sense to me

It had been going on since the early summer, with people getting upset over what others are saying or reacting. It is not visible since it gets moderated away. But I guess the moderating team has grown tried of the same drama, which can probably not be stopped so easily. However, moderating away a comment does have another effect, and you will just have more and more people upset from both sides.

It seems reacting with a smile, or a yay, or any reaction to a post with a difficult intent might be enough to hurt people, but it is not against the rules to react.

I still think everyone deserves to have an opinion without getting censored, but in these times, even I might get upset if someone mentions politics! And I care so much about politics :maud:

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