Does My Little Pony indoctrinate as well as entertain?

[TheEngineer 188]

Growing up, I was taught that there are two types of people in society: good and evil. The shows I watched as I matured reinforced this notion. Batman always defeated the evil villain bent on destroying Gotham, James Bond always triumphed over the megalomaniacal Russian enemy, and Mario always saved the Princess from the evil Bowser.

 

My Little Pony also contains strong themes of good and evil. As Twilight Sparkle proclaims upon seeing Chrysalis control the unwitting Shining Armor, "...she's evil!". How one becomes evil is never explained because that's just how they are and they must be stopped. Evil people can't be reasoned with, they just are bent on doing evil which they know is wrong.

 

 

This, however, is incompatible with reality.

 

 

In the real world, there are very few, if any, people who actually believe that they themselves are evil and purposefully act wrongly. Most people, even if their reasons are unjustified or misguided, are acting in a way which they genuinely believe is right for complicated reasons. Certainly, there are sociopaths and others who are unable to have empathy for other people; but even in these instances we should take care to understand them and to attempt to treat them.

 

 

Here, then, is my question: Does My Little Pony reinforce the notion of good and evil in a way that is harmful to society?

 

 

--------------------------

Note: I love My Little Pony and will, at the least, for a very long time. This trend is one throughout a lot of media aimed at children and teenagers; it isn't exclusive to MLP. I'm not taking aim at the show and, even if I disagree with one element of the show, I'm going to brony on for a long time /). I'm just bringing up the question for discussion here.

[Shiki 5,856]

The basic "Good vs. Evil" story goes on and on between tons of different stories to lay down a basic rule of right vs. wrong. People are not suppose to take advantage over people, and people are supposed to be nice and help others. "Evil" people are ones who manipulate and harm others, while "good" the opposite. If we take Chrysalis, for example, we can justify her actions by saying that she needs to overcome Equestria in order to feed her people. In a sense, she's helping others, but at the same time, she's harming others as well.

 

The standard POV for these kinds of shows typically are the ones who have the least amount of complex, situational backgrounds, just as children typically do. That way there is a more obvious "good" and "evil" side to things. It would be difficult for a kid to understand what it is right from wrong in an extremely complex character.

 

As these kids grow older, they simply learn more. They realise that people do things for reasons, and that certain things need to be done compared to unjustified nonsense, whatever the outcome may bring; harm or joy. As kids, the "Good vs. Evil" thing is too simple for it to have a large impact on future behaviour, really. At least, that is what I believe.

[Otter 1,942]

Well, if you want to take a religious approach to it, we're all evil, despicable beings. Only through the grace of God, when break our mortal chains, can we truly become "good".

[TheEngineer 188]

The basic "Good vs. Evil" story goes on and on between tons of different stories to lay down a basic rule of right vs. wrong. People are not suppose to take advantage over people, and people are supposed to be nice and help others. "Evil" people are ones who manipulate and harm others, while "good" the opposite. If we take Chrysalis, for example, we can justify her actions by saying that she needs to overcome Equestria in order to feed her people. In a sense, she's helping others, but at the same time, she's harming others as well.

 

The standard POV for these kinds of shows typically are the ones who have the least amount of complex, situational backgrounds, just as children typically do. That way there is a more obvious "good" and "evil" side to things. It would be difficult for a kid to understand what it is right from wrong in an extremely complex character.

 

As these kids grow older, they simply learn more. They realise that people do things for reasons, and that certain things need to be done compared to unjustified nonsense, whatever the outcome may bring; harm or joy. As kids, the "Good vs. Evil" thing is too simple for it to have a large impact on future behaviour, really. At least, that is what I believe.

 

You definitely have a good point. Reality is a lot more complex and many do learn that as they grow older. But there are plenty of people I know who still assume that some people know they are evil and do wrong because of their evil nature. Take President Bush, who labeled certain states in the Middle East "The Axis of Evil".

 

Well, if you want to take a religious approach to it, we're all evil, despicable beings. Only through the grace of God, when break our mortal chains, can we truly become "good".

 

From that point of view, it's understandable and perhaps that should figure into our discussion as well here. Do you think, though, that there are evil people who act wrongly, knowing that they are doing what is wrong?

[AntiDentite 37]

As brightly colored a show as MLP is, morally, it's very black and white. And I think that the creators/writers of the show are making the right call keeping it that way, it's really best to keep it safe.

 

But, to quote South Park's Satan, "without evil there can be no good so it must be good to be evil sometimes." There is truth to that, and there will come a day when the target audience (non-Bronies) will be ready to have that discussion. I happen to think that 4-7 years of age isn't that time.

 

Let them believe in the Tooth Fairy a little while longer.

[Silverhoof 2,844]

90% of the show doesn't even have a villain. Most of the episodes are exploring relationships between the mane 6 characters.

One episode dealt with a disagreement between Rarity and Applejack. Another episode dealt with sisterhood.

Only a few shows deal with obvious villains so your point is moot.

 

That said, the show IS aimed at kids. Each episode is only 22 minutes long. There just isn't time to explore deep social issues. So yes, the villains will be villainous just to make the story flow. and NO, no one will bother to say why the villains are misguided, had a bad childhood, or are misfits looking for a place in society. Simple stories just don't have the room.

 

My advice, just relax and enjoy the show.

[Otter 1,942]

From that point of view, it's understandable and perhaps that should figure into our discussion as well here. Do you think, though, that there are evil ponies who act wrongly, knowing that they are doing what is wrong?

 

Oh, definitely. Hitler, for example. There's no way that he didn't know what he was doing is wrong. He certainly didn't care. Also, Ivan the Terrible. Anyone, even him, knows that mutilating people for no reason is clearly not right.

 

(By the way, it's refreshing to be able to bring up religion in a discussion and not be met with: "EHRMAGERD!! RELIGIOUS FANATIC!!! KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!)

[TheEngineer 188]

Oh, definitely. Hitler, for example. There's no way that he didn't know what he was doing is wrong. He certainly didn't care. Also, Ivan the Terrible. Anyone, even him, knows that mutilating people for no reason is clearly not right.

 

(By the way, it's refreshing to be able to bring up religion in a discussion and not be met with: "EHRMAGERD!! RELIGIOUS FANATIC!!! KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!)

 

Was Hitler evil though? Or was he a fanatical follower of a warped, racist, anti-Semitic ideology?

 

Also, I just noticed I typed "pony" instead of "person". MLP has now officially hijacked my subconscious and I've been taken to brony level 5.

 

90% of the show doesn't even have a villain. Most of the episodes are exploring relationships between the mane 6 characters.

One episode dealt with a disagreement between Rarity and Applejack. Another episode dealt with sisterhood.

Only a few shows deal with obvious villains so your point is moot.

 

That said, the show IS aimed at kids. Each episode is only 22 minutes long. There just isn't time to explore deep social issues. So yes, the villains will be villainous just to make the story flow. and NO, no one will bother to say why the villains are misguided, had a bad childhood, or are misfits looking for a place in society. Simple stories just don't have the room.

 

My advice, just relax and enjoy the show.

 

Yeah, and to some degree I definitely understand that. I'm not going to blame MLP for putting in an exciting fight between good and evil characters especially given that it is portrayed as fictional and all. I was really asking more about our socialization in general in an indirect way that relates back to MLP.

[PlunderSteed 1,252]

Godwin Horizons...they must have a weekly quota on this forum.

 

One interesting aspect of FIM is the persistent presence of a "good" deity (Celestia), but a lack of persistent "evil" presence (none of the villains so far are recurring). This is in contrast to some other Hasbro IPs where there is a persistent villain (Megatron, Cobra Commander, etc.).

[Akemi Homura 7,680]

The concept of black and white doesn't exist; only shades of gray. We are capable of committing good deeds that can put a smile on anyone's face, or be disdainful and do some wrong from time to time. Is the latter good? Not inherently, but it's in everyone's nature to do so at a certain point.

 

That is why the characters are portrayed extremely well and their personalities over the course of two seasons have been explored enough to give us the sense that they really have evolved because they're very dynamic - the capability that every human being has. We can learn from our mistakes and strive to do better for/in the future. That said, the Mane 6 aren't perfect; each of them have their flaws which some people just outright dislike. Like us, however, they manage to learn from their mistakes although their core flaws are still present, which makes us respect their traits that much more. Liking them for their strengths builds the foundation for people to like them, but understanding their flaws helps us see them more as individuals because they have bad sides to them as well.

[Silverhoof 2,844]

Yeah, and to some degree I definitely understand that. I'm not going to blame MLP for putting in an exciting fight between good and evil characters especially given that it is portrayed as fictional and all. I was really asking more about our socialization in general in an indirect way that relates back to MLP.

 

Since the show deals more with topics of friendship and personal relationships I don't think it's fair to pin the good/evil argument on MLP since the villains only show in about 10% of the episodes.

 

Take a look at the super hero genre. that is amazingly popular and is very dependent on the cheap and constant use of good evil to build the conflict that fans crave. The bipolar nature of good/evil is an easy fix for the production grind. It is such a force that it has lasted decades in popular TV culture. No one seems adversely affected by it. I think people are quite capable of understanding the difference between fantasy and reality.

 

Its all part of growing up. I don't think there is any society level problems at all.

[duidamasterXD 9,627]

I think that examining gray morality might be better left to a show like game of thrones or to the dark knight trilogy. It might be good for kids to know that life isn't black and white but this is something that you sort of have to find out for yourself, sometimes not until later in life. I see what you're saying but this isn't exactly uncommon for a kids show.

[TheEngineer 188]

Since the show deals more with topics of friendship and personal relationships I don't think it's fair to pin the good/evil argument on MLP since the villains only show in about 10% of the episodes.

 

Take a look at the super hero genre. that is amazingly popular and is very dependent on the cheap and constant use of good evil to build the conflict that fans crave. The bipolar nature of good/evil is an easy fix for the production grind. It is such a force that it has lasted decades in popular TV culture. No one seems adversely affected by it. I think people are quite capable of understanding the difference between fantasy and reality.

 

Its all part of growing up. I don't think there is any society level problems at all.

 

True, my criticism is misplaced then! A better topic might be about the concepts of good and evil in general and the morality of giving children a vision of reality that is easier to digest and simpler.

 

My bad!

[Silverhoof 2,844]

True, my criticism is misplaced then! A better topic might be about the concepts of good and evil in general and the morality of giving children a vision of reality that is easier to digest and simpler.

 

My bad!

 

Good and evil is something that kids need to learn. there are things that are wrong. Murder is wrong, we call that evil.

Pedophilia is evil, there is no excuse for tolerating it,

The simplistic nature of good and evil is a perfect tool to reach children. As adults we can delve into the deeper roots of things society cannot allow, but for kids, they just have to understand that evil is bad/stranger danger/don't pick up snakes.

 

make sense?

 

None of this is indoctrination. Good and evil is a tool society uses to teach moral values. Its nothing to be alarmed at.

[TheEngineer 188]

Good and evil is something that kids need to learn. there are things that are wrong. Murder is wrong, we call that evil.

Pedophilia is evil, there is no excuse for tolerating it,

The simplistic nature of good and evil is a perfect tool to reach children. As adults we can delve into the deeper roots of things society cannot allow, but for kids, they just have to understand that evil is bad/stranger danger/don't pick up snakes.

 

make sense?

 

None of this is indoctrination. Good and evil is a tool society uses to teach moral values. Its nothing to be alarmed at.

 

I totally agree that we need to teach children good values, many of which I'm sure we would agree upon. But why not simply tell them that we should be compassionate to others because we are all equal or because we have the capacity to improve our world? I think that might be enough rather than talking about good and evil.

[Silverhoof 2,844]

I totally agree that we need to teach children good values, many of which I'm sure we would agree upon. But why not simply tell them that we should be compassionate to others because we are all equal or because we have the capacity to improve our world? I think that might be enough rather than talking about good and evil.

 

1) Because kids simply don't have the capacity to understand complex issues. You will have to wait till they are older.

2) Because there IS such a thing as evil. A pedophile is evil. Nazis are evil. Genocide is evil. Evil does exist in the world.

[TheEngineer 188]

1) Because kids simply don't have the capacity to understand complex issues. You will have to wait till they are older.

2) Because there IS such a thing as evil. A pedophile is evil. Nazis are evil. Genocide is evil. Evil does exist in the world.

 

Well, I suppose we've reached something of a philosophical impasse. I'm not convinced that evil exists, you believe it does. I'm also a bit unsure that teaching children to be compassionate is a complex thing, I think the idea of treat others as you would like to be treated is actually pretty simple.

[koochi 5]

Not really... Just look at rock... They associate that with being evil or a harmfull person... They even go as far as calling it devil music... While the fact of the matter is that most rock songs are about love... In one way or another. Only cause most say something with devil in the verses they say that "if you listen 2 rock you'll become violent" that's just own opinion and I don't agree with it

With mlp I don't think it really enforces evil vs good themes. It does have those theme's but look at the age barriers of le show who watches it. Most are teens and young adults. Or at least it's meant for them. I don't think that they will get influenced by what they see but more that they will like what they see in there ^^

at least this is my opinion, i have no concrete things in mind

[Dusty Soul 2,612]

No, because the whole good vs. evil thing is quite normal as tv shows come along. I also have to say that most of the time there really isn't a villain. Also I think that the show focuses like 90 % on friendship, not good/evil. So I will have to say no.

[Cranium Tyranus 216]

Growing up, I was taught that there are two types of people in society: good and evil. The shows I watched as I matured reinforced this notion. Batman always defeated the evil villain bent on destroying Gotham, James Bond always triumphed over the megalomaniacal Russian enemy, and Mario always saved the Princess from the evil Bowser.

 

My Little Pony also contains strong themes of good and evil. As Twilight Sparkle proclaims upon seeing Chrysalis control the unwitting Shining Armor, "...she's evil!". How one becomes evil is never explained because that's just how they are and they must be stopped. Evil people can't be reasoned with, they just are bent on doing evil which they know is wrong.

 

 

This, however, is incompatible with reality.

 

 

In the real world, there are very few, if any, people who actually believe that they themselves are evil and purposefully act wrongly. Most people, even if their reasons are unjustified or misguided, are acting in a way which they genuinely believe is right for complicated reasons. Certainly, there are sociopaths and others who are unable to have empathy for other people; but even in these instances we should take care to understand them and to attempt to treat them.

 

 

Here, then, is my question: Does My Little Pony reinforce the notion of good and evil in a way that is harmful to society?

 

 

--------------------------

Note: I love My Little Pony and will, at the least, for a very long time. This trend is one throughout a lot of media aimed at children and teenagers; it isn't exclusive to MLP. I'm not taking aim at the show and, even if I disagree with one element of the show, I'm going to brony on for a long time /). I'm just bringing up the question for discussion here.

 

This question has a different answer depending on the people you ask. In my own opinion, chrysalis has been the only real evil villain. But the way that they exposed her as being evil was kinda... Messed up. Through Twilight's eyes when Chrisalis was pretending to be Cadence she was a bad person cause she acted in a rude manner. In her defense she only caused her of being evil when she actually saw her use her magic on her brother, wouldn't you be protective of a sibling? In short, although flawed in the way they presented her as a villi an from the start. I don't think it would be harmful to the intellectual growth of kids growing up on the show.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Cranium Tyranus

[Fluttermena 1,223]

Pedophilia is evil, there is no excuse for tolerating it,

 

Slight nuance here, pedophilia only means that someone is attracted to children, regardless of whether or not they hurt anyone, a pedophile can be a good person who chooses not to act on their feelings out of respect and compassion. Rape is wrong however, regardless of the victim's age. This is a good example of how good and evil aren't always black and white, it's easy to brand someone as evil just because they have the potential to commit a crime, and be blind to that person's own morals that can influence their actions.

Mainsream society has a tendency to go after harmless people who commit victimless crimes, we need to go after people who actually hurt innocents instead of attacking people for thoughtcrimes.

 

On the subect of MLP, I actually think the conflicts are pretty realistic when it come to good and evil, morality may not be black and white in real life, but that doesn't mean that evil doesn't exist either, the show's antagonists are similar to people in real life: some, like Discord, are sociopaths who realise how much they hurt people, but they just like doing it. Others, like Chrysalis or the Flimflam brothers, are selfish and are willing to hurt others for their own gain. You also have people like Diamond Tiara, Trixie or Gilda who are arrogant, but not actually evil, they can redeem themselves. Some, like Luna, have issues that can drive them to hurt others. Then you have those like the Manticore, the Ursa Minor or the Dragon from Dragonshy, who hurt people by accident and can be reasonned with. Fluttershy was right when she said "you're not a bad dragon, you just made a bad decision" and that's the kind of attitude the show promotes.

 

The show also does a good job when it comes to dealing with those antagonists, a lot of problems can be solved with diplomacy, sometimes solving the problem that makes someone act out is a good idea, other times, a disciplinary speech will make people realise how much of a jerk they are, and they'll stop. Some people, such as Discord, Chrysalis and Nightmare Moon, won't listen to reason, and sometimes violence is necessary to prevent greater suffering, and after they are defeated, then they might be more willing to listen and redeem themselves (like Nightmare Moon).

[Bucky McGillyCuddy 956]

If you looks hard enough at something you'll eventually find problems with it that aren't even there.

 

I don't think FIM promotes any kind of negative effect on society. I highly doubt that anyone watches the show and afterwards thinks that real life people can only be split into Good & Evil, and to what cause? There's far to much tension everywhere else in the world to worry about an innocent children show about talking Ponies.

[Akemi Homura 7,680]

Well, I suppose we've reached something of a philosophical impasse. I'm not convinced that evil exists, you believe it does. I'm also a bit unsure that teaching children to be compassionate is a complex thing, I think the idea of treat others as you would like to be treated is actually pretty simple.

 

An argument can be made that both Nightmare Moon and Chrysalis thought that their actions against ponykind were based on their belief that they were actually doing the right thing, although it's not necessarily good. Did Nightmare Moon really want to transform in the first place? No, she was overridden with jealousy and resent for Celestia, marking that Luna really didn't want to go against her sister to begin with, but happened because her emotions were too strong to resist. She wanted to prove herself worthy, but when her new form came into being, she turned to extreme measures in order to accomplish her goal.

 

Meanwhile, the Changeling Queen only infiltrated Equestria and posed as Cadence for the sake of feeding her minions with love from other ponies. Only thing is, the nature of her plans made her seem more diabolical and evil than normal; of course, she didn't show any hesitation or regret that it had to be this way, but it can be said that she's done this several times to disregard all that. She was indeed an ass about everything, publicly displaying her distaste for Shining Armor and all of Equestria (through SONG, no less), but being diabolical isn't inherently being evil. Only when you truly enjoy destroying others, you can be considered evil. Sure, both villains' actions were hated by everypony, but they're attached to a sense of caring for ponies and being knowledgeable of everypony else that they think it's pure evil. Breaking it down, however, we can see that it's not as "black" as people make it out to be in the case of the villains.

[TailsIsNotAlone 3,695]

If MLP holds up an unrealistic good/evil dichotomy, it's no worse than a ton of other shows and movies that do the same thing. And some of the antagonists did have reasons for what they did, or were misunderstood and redeemed later. (Nightmare Moon for instance.)

Edited September 19, 2012 by TailsAlone

[Forlong 1,726]

Oh no, I must inform Sovereign that the humans have become aware of his plan to indoctrinate them for usage in cleansing the galaxy of all advanced life.

 

Don't look at me like that. Someone had to make a "Mass Effect" joke.