Does anyone else have reservations about Luna's dream-entering abilities?

[Music Chart Fan 819]

I wrote about this in a few scattered posts and I thought I would try to gather my thoughts together on this subject and hopefully see what you think.

 

 

Before I get started, I do understand that it was nice to see Luna getting more screen time, taking a larger role in-world, having unique powers to differentiate her from Celestia, and making her more likable. However, I was still a little put off by Luna's expansive ability to enter into ponies' dreams.

 

--

 

First, Luna says that it is her DUTY to come into ponies' dreams. Who gave Luna this duty? Are the ponies of Equestria actually aware that Luna has this power/duty? Allow me to reproduce some of the dialogue from the episode, when Luna introduces herself to Scootaloo in her dream:

 

SCOOTALOO:  You are so, so much better than the Headless Horse! But what are you doing here? Shouldn't you be in Canterlot?

LUNA: I am the princess of the night. Thus it is my duty to come into your dreams.

SCOOTALOO: Oh, yeah... (while looking sideways with her hoof to her chin) Wait, this is just a dream? But it feels so real!

 

The question in my mind is, was Scootaloo's "Oh, yeah..." more of an "Oh, yeah, now I remember learning that that is one of Luna's duties" or was it more of an "Oh, yeah, I never knew that before but it makes sense since Luna is the princess of the night and all"?

 

If the ponies of Equestria are NOT aware that Luna has this power/duty, then why not? Don't the ponies of Equestria deserve to know that Luna might enter their dreams? Wouldn't it be beneficial for ponies to know that Luna might enter their dreams and that they should be sure to seek her out and listen to her advice? Even if Princess Luna doesn't make some kind of worldwide declaration that she does this, wouldn't the ponies which have had Luna visit their dreams tell others and spread the word?

 

--

 

 

Second, regardless of whether the ponies of Equestria are aware of Luna's ability or not, I think Luna's ability to do this is a significant invasion of privacy. Did the ponies of Equestria agree that Luna should be doing this, surrendering the privacy of their dreams in that agreement? Can individuals or parents on behalf of their children choose to opt out? That is, can they say "I can handle my/my child's nightmares myself, I don't want Luna to invade the private dreams of me/my child"? Even if ponies could opt out, what guarantee could there be that Luna wouldn't riffle through their dreams anyway? Is there any redress of grievances if Luna gives someone bad advice, or gives a child advice that contradicts what his or her parents are trying to teach? If someone ignores Luna's advice, does she keep coming back and insisting that he or she take her advice until they do?

 

--

 

Third is just that I am uncomfortable with Celestia and Luna becoming too God-like in their powers.

 

For one thing, Celestia and Luna being too powerful might make them less believable and relatable as characters. For example, I think that it is a bit unrealistic for Luna, the co-ruler of Equestria, to personally intervene in the petty dreams and struggles of individuals. Why does Luna need to personally come into Scootaloo's nightmare, put a stop to the scary events happening, and tell her that she needs to face her fear of Rainbow Dash finding out that she gets scared by scary stories? Doesn't the co-ruler of Equestria have more important things to do? I kind of feel like Luna doing this is analogous to the president calling me to tell me to stop procrastinating and do my homework. By their positions of power, both Luna and the president have to focus on big-picture issues that affect millions of individuals. Personal problems are probably better addressed by people closer to the individual.

 

But also, I don't necessarily like authority figures with massive power (and massive potential for abuse) over millions of individuals being portrayed as entirely benevolent and deserving of trust and adoration. I think the basic question that should be asked is: can the ponies of Equestria trust Luna to use her dream-entering power wisely and judiciously? Maybe in the fantastical world of Equestria, Luna and Celestia are wholly benevolent rulers who can always be trusted to use their great powers only in the interest of their subjects. In the real world, though, authority figures can rarely (if ever) be always trusted not to abuse powers given to them. This is why we have inalienable rights which are (supposedly) protected by law. Thus the show seems unrealistic to me in that the rulers of Equestria apparently can be and are trusted not to abuse their enormous powers.

 

 

Along that same train of thought, though, we do have to consider that the intended audience of the show is supposed to be little kids. To some extent, little kids do have to be taught to trust and obey authority figures (parents, teachers, etc.). However, at some point, those same kids also should be taught to think for themselves and not to just believe or do anything that an authoritative figure tells them. While it may be comforting to believe that authority figures will always be looking out for you and your best interests, that will not always be the case. With those things in mind, is the portrayal in the show of total trust in Celestia and Luna that I explained above appropriate?

 

--

 

What do you think? Are these concerns legitimate? Am I reading too much into concerns about privacy and trust in authority for a show like this?

[Bronium 512]

Also, what about people who sleep during the day a lot or people who live in a different time zone? Wouldn't Luna have to be in dreams all the time? Or does she pick dreams herself? Even if the ponies do agree, wouldn't that be unfair of her to choose? Or does she have a random name generator?

[Titan Rising 2,156]

I have no problems with it at all but I did think they botched her lines up a bit on that part honestly, and I think she should have been a lot more calm about the whole thing instead of kinda authoritative.  She goes to help out with their nightmares, and it's their dreams, they can probably throw her out of them if they really wanted to.  

[Creamy Arty 6,252]

Her appearance in dreams could be limited to circumstances like ones of recurring nightmares. Luna may have been giving Scootaloo the short version of things to better address the issue at hand or to spare the viewers a dull explanation. The way I'm looking at it is that Luna doesn't have much to do with her subjects during the graveyard shift because they're all asleep, and this is her way of being involved in the lives of all Equestrians. She became Nightmare Moon because she was unappreciated and uninvolved in the lives of her subjects. This could be a new solution she recently devised upon resuming her duties as a princess.

 

The invasion of privacy concern crossed my mind as well, but it's not a huge issue to me. Entering the minds of every sleeping pony in Equestria or even two at a time would be a bit of a stretch I think. Perhaps her consciousness roams the land in search of turmoil so she only appears where she's needed. That's much easier to grasp, and given that we've been shown even Celestia isn't omnipotent it also seems much more likely.

Celestia and Luna appearing more godlike does make them less relatable in a way, but the mystery still surrounding the alicorn race doesn't make them less believable for me. As far as the other ponies are concerned, they all seem to love and implicitly trust Celestia, who has apparently never violated that trust in all her years as princess. Given that she's presumably the creator of the Elements of Harmony and once controlled them, it also seems unlikely that she would be capable of actions contradicting any of those elements. How bound Luna is to those same guidelines I can't be certain beyond an apparent desire to be respected as an equal to her sister.

[Obsidian_Winter 1,159]

Given that she's presumably the creator of the Elements of Harmony

 

She never created them. She discovered them and weilded them with her Sister back in the day. Though since her sister used them with her, I would think she would be bound to their traits now that shes back to her old self.

[Jammo 986]

Luna is a pervert then. How unsettling is the concept of your dreams not being a private sanctuary? There's no escape from your Alicorn overlady. If you lose the power to sleep in peace, nowhere is sacred. Can anyone do this? Can they sabotage your mind to drive you to madness through dreams. My god, Luna is Shub'Niggurath the seven-eyed black goat out to consume us all in madness!

[Tall_But_Short_37 233]

For some reason, Luna strikes me a sort of a guardian of fillies and younger ponies, and one of her duties is to watch over them and their dreams to make sure everything is alright. I get this impression for a few reasons.

 

First, the way Luna reappeared in the first episode as smaller, younger looking pony after being defeated by the Elements. I think that part of her being freed from Nightmare Moon was that she was reduced to a much younger and weaker state of herself, in both powers and maturity. Since then, her size (she's much larger now than in that first episode) and powers (which is why we're just now seeing this new dream walking) have been slowly returning. I feel like after that, Luna had a lot of fears and insecurities, and it would make sense if Celestia had given her the task of watching over younger ponies and their nightmares so that she could both teach them to conquer their fears and learn to do so herself.

 

Second, the transformation she goes through from the beginning to the end of Luna Eclipsed, especially in the eyes of the fillies. At the start, she's obviously doesn't fit in, and I think this really hurts her feelings. Going back to the above "Luna has regressed in maturity" theory, she would especially feel how hard it is to be accepted and liked by everypony. Luna understands how it feels to be rejected and be an outcast from society, so she wants to use her dream walking power to help fillies (such as in Scootaloo's situation) fit in and help them conquer their fears and problems.

 

Thus, I don't have worries about Luna's newly revealed power. I think she's mature enough to use it for good, and not to invade privacy or give people nigthmares (if she can even do that). And if she's not, I'm sure Celestia or the Mane 6 will be able to show her the errors of her ways, and it'll be a great lesson for all.

 

Also, on a slight side note, anyone else curious about whether Luna could've visited Babs in her dreams and helped her get over her bullying problems, in either Manehatten or Ponyville?

[Anadu Kune 668]

I think its important to note that most people forget their dreams or just write them off. Scoots even did so right as she awoke from the dream saying "oh it was just a dream". This would probably account for the lack of knowledge of that ability. Seeing as almost everything in Equestria needs a helping hand it would stand to reason that perhaps dreams may as-well. Luna is most likely the guardian of dreams thus it would be her duty to come into your dreams and insure order. I think another important thing to note is that this is very common among myth and modern fiction.

[windy_prance 114]

This is a world where two ponies are responsible for rising and set both the sun and moon...

 

Is it THAT big of a stretch that one of them can visit ponies in their dream?

 

I say it completely sense especially we don't see Luna very often. Maybe Luna been helping the Mane Six and other ponies ENTIRE TIME just through dreams?

[CloudFyre 848]

I have multiple possible answers for this - but bear with me as I explain them.

Scenario 1) Unlikely: Scootaloo subconsiously superimposed her own "persona" of Luna into her dreams, and didn't actually have any contact with her throughout the episode.

Scenario 2) Somewhat likely: Luna directly entered her dream, and had a 1 on 1 conversation with her in order to calm her thoughts and ease her spirit.

Scenario 3) Likely (my own head-canon): Luna's starfield spells and her power over the moon casts it's own metaspell, which spreads her personal characteristics wherever the moon is visible. If you think about it, there must be hundreds upon thousands of ponies living in Equestria at any given moment. There is no possible way that Luna could have a 1 on 1 conversation with each and every pony that has a nightmare each night - it's just not feasible. That being said, I DO think she could project herself into a dream if there was a great need, which is what might have happened to Scootaloo.

Scenario 4) INCEPTION: After the episode, Scootaloo wakes up from what was just a dream.

[TailsIsNotAlone 3,695]

I wouldn't make too much of that. It was a little surprising because of the Inception reference and all, but it fits into canon well enough. Luna's cool enough not to misuse that kind of power, and I'm sure she doesn't spend the night spying on everypony's dreams.

 

On the other hand, if Celestia had that power I would be worried indeed.

Edited December 11, 2012 by TailsAlone

[Alex Kennedy 1,228]

I trust that Luna will only use this power for good. If she really wanted to cause trouble, she could do a lot more with her control of the moon than she could by entering dreams, anyway. (Not to say that she couldn't wreak havoc with people that way)

 

In terms of privacy, I don't think she would enter a dream unless it was important, and I don't think she pays much attention to what goes on in people's dreams otherwise.

[Just some guy 1,070]

It makes complete sense for Luna to do so,being the Princess of The Night and all,and I don't think she'll be pulling any sort of Freddy Krueger-level shenanigans anytime soon with her desire to connect to the denizens of Equestria.I think it's completely fine if she doesn't intervene unless neccessary or to help them overcome a fear,like in Scootaloo's nightmares.

[Music Chart Fan 819]

Scenario 3) Likely (my own head-canon): Luna's starfield spells and her power over the moon casts it's own metaspell, which spreads her personal characteristics wherever the moon is visible. If you think about it, there must be hundreds upon thousands of ponies living in Equestria at any given moment. There is no possible way that Luna could have a 1 on 1 conversation with each and every pony that has a nightmare each night - it's just not feasible. That being said, I DO think she could project herself into a dream if there was a great need, which is what might have happened to Scootaloo.

 

Very interesting theory! I didn't think of the possibility that Luna entering dreams and Luna speaking to ponies through the moon were related phenomena. So, by your theory, the likeness of Luna could potentially appear to anyone who looks at the moon either in real life or in a dream? Scootaloo in real life was sleeping inside the tent the first night and inside the cave the second night, so the moon was not shining on her sleeping in real life either time.

 

Luna and the moon WERE both present in Scootaloo's first and second dreams, though. In the first dream, I don't think Scootaloo looked directly at the moon, but then Luna was only lurking behind the trees, not in plain sight. In the second dream, Scootaloo ended up looking at the moon directly, and then Luna appeared (and made the Headless Horse disappear). However, in the third dream at the very end of the episode, Luna appears (and presumably made Rainbow Dash appear as well), but I didn't see the moon anywhere. In fact, judging from the light level, her dream might even be during the day. We don't see where Scootaloo is sleeping when the third dream occurs, though, so maybe the third time she is sleeping in view of the moon in real life.

 

bear with me as I explain them.

 

Heh heh, "bearing with" your post was no problem compared to "bearing with" the essay I wrote in the first post.

[Tall_But_Short_37 233]

 

If you think about it, there must be hundreds upon thousands of ponies living in Equestria at any given moment. There is no possible way that Luna could have a 1 on 1 conversation with each and every pony that has a nightmare each night - it's just not feasible.

 

Not disagreeing with your theory, but if I may comment on the above quoted part. Dreams and sleep are the type of thing where for me, I lose all sense of time while it's happening. Though Scootaloo's dreams felt like several minutes in her subconscious, who knows how long they were actually happening for. If we assume that dreams are actually much shorter than they feel, it's possible that Luna is able to visit many ponies nightmares in one night.

[CloudFyre 848]

Not disagreeing with your theory, but if I may comment on the above quoted part. Dreams and sleep are the type of thing where for me, I lose all sense of time while it's happening. Though Scootaloo's dreams felt like several minutes in her subconscious, who knows how long they were actually happening for. If we assume that dreams are actually much shorter than they feel, it's possible that Luna is able to visit many ponies nightmares in one night.

 

Very true! I hadn't thought about it that way. Perhaps it is possible then.

 

On the other hand, as dreams that seem like hours can last only minutes, Luna would somehow have to be able to suddenly "know" when that small window of time opens up for a pony hundreds of miles away. She gets more and more awesome every time I think about it...

 

 

[Wingnut 6,994]

The whole concept creeps me out as well.  Most people can't control their dreams and while dreams' contents are based on people's real lives, they're so distorted that they are almost unusable as a means of obtaining intelligence as shown in the movie Inception.  Even so, there's still enough stuff in dreams that privacy issues arise.  Part of me wants to believe that it wasn't really Luna but just a very lucid dream Scoots was having. 

 

FWIW, I haven't seen Inception, but it Inception sounds somewhat like Total Recall which was actually a much bigger invasion of mental privacy. 

[Tall_But_Short_37 233]

What if Scootaloo had just found and eaten some reaaaally old mushrooms while she was running through the forest? T'would make sense...

[Silverhoof 2,844]

I'm not too concerned by this, It opens a number of story possibilities and gives Luna some duties of her own for us to see,

 

--as for Scootaloo...I think the sheer horror of her dream attracted Luna to intervene, Luna wasn't eavesdropping, but rescuing a little filly. I've no problem with that.  Its possible Luna woke up Rainbow in time to save Scoots at the waterfall.

 

Up to now Celestia filled the wise mother figure in the show. Luna was certainly the mature nurturing figure in the episode. I like seeing Luna taking a greater part in running the kingdom.

 

I always thought the title of the show should be a quote from Celestia, "My Little Ponies." It's just sorta how a loving mentor would refer to her charges.

[Dreadmallon 353]

I trust that Luna will only use this power for good. If she really wanted to cause trouble, she could do a lot more with her control of the moon than she could by entering dreams, anyway. (Not to say that she couldn't wreak havoc with people that way)

 

In terms of privacy, I don't think she would enter a dream unless it was important, and I don't think she pays much attention to what goes on in people's dreams otherwise.

 

"Please refer to Darkrai for futher information."

 

Anyway, I'm guessing it is Luna's "duty" (more of a desire) to patrol her subject's dreams because it's a substitution for the absense of her subjects during the night (they are asleep).

Edited December 12, 2012 by Dusk the Raider

[Zygen 6,066]

I think its a fitting power for her to have. It doesn't really bother me. Also i think Scootaloo's whole Oh yeah doesn't really matter, because maybe being a filly still she doesn't know all of these things.

I'm pretty sure Luna doesn't go around dreams and stalk people of their thoughts and privacy, besides she helps then with their problems. So It isn't really like shes harming them.

 

And I don't really think it would make sense for her to just randomly decree and be like "CITIZENS OF EQUESTRIA!!! WE HAVE THE POWER TO ENTER DREAMS, WE WOULD JUST LIKE YOU TO KNOW THAT!".

 

And I think that both Celestia and Luna are trusted by all the Ponies now. I'm sure she doesn't always enter dreams though, except when they have problems they may be unable to deal with.

 

Besides, with nopony doing much during the night, Luna has to have something to do. .(other then play video games).

 

I don't really find it that weird though. Sure Celestia and Luna are powerful, but they're suppose to be like the most powerful Ponies in Equestria. So it fits them.

[TheRainbowDash 3]

I think it was just a full on make out with bronys. I mean, Scoots with Rd, and Luna. That seems odd to me....if it had been any worse they would of had Trixie in there.