S04:E01+02 - Princess Twilight Sparkle

[Will Guide 21,360]

ENDING SPOILERS INCOMING

 

At least before the Elements of Harmony are given up to the Tree, we got to see the Elements' power actually struggle (however, briefly) against Nightmare Moon in the flashback and not just effortlessly defeat the villain. Even when they're an acceptable dues ex machina, I still wanted to see the Elements have a power struggle between good and evil. 

 

I enjoyed the whole episode. Although, it does through some details of a possible fan fiction I could write into the Jossed bin.

I can still work with it.

[DND 2,355]

I'm still a little confused with the people who weren't captivated buy this episode. I mean, what's wrong with flashbacks? I brings character development, people! It brought a new understanding to Twilight's personal mentors, and they used it well. This is the kind of stuff I watch the show for!

[Metemponychosis 1,259]

I'm still a little confused with the people who weren't captivated buy this episode. I mean, what's wrong with flashbacks? I brings character development, people! It brought a new understanding to Twilight's personal mentors, and they used it well. This is the kind of stuff I watch the show for!

What did you see in the Celestia and Luna flashback that was new?

[Pixel Stick 927]

@moonlightavenger - The flashback showed very clearly that Luna made a conscious decision to transform into Nightmare Moon and turn on her sister, rather than it being something that just happened to her. Up to that point, they had kept this specific point vague.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Pixel Stick

[Metemponychosis 1,259]

@moonlightavenger - The flashback showed very clearly that Luna made a conscious decision to transform into Nightmare Moon and turn on her sister, rather than it being something that just happened to her. Up to that point, they had kept this specific point vague.

How do you know that from the scene? She didn't say anything to this effect.

All she did was break the balcony and the window after whining like a brat, and then transformed.

 I thought that it was clear that Nightmare Moon and Luna where two different entities.

[Mlpfefc 0]

For those who can't watch the episode on TV :

Part 1 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw6ZxEPOLvE

Part 2 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zsMC1jaBCA

[Pixel Stick 927]

How do you know that from the scene? She didn't say anything to this effect.

All she did was break the balcony and the window after whining like a brat, and then transformed.

I thought that it was clear that Nightmare Moon and Luna where two different entities.

Phrases like "Did you really think...?" are pretty universally a sign that the villain knows full well what they're doing and that they fully intend to do something evil. If Luna had shown even the slightest bit of fear or confusion just before or during her transformation, I'd be more inclined to believe NMM had "taken over", but Luna appeared to be in control the whole time.

[Metemponychosis 1,259]

Phrases like "Did you really think...?" are pretty universally a sign that the villain knows full well what they're doing and that they fully intend to do something evil. If Luna had shown even the slightest bit of fear or confusion just before or during her transformation, I'd be more inclined to believe NMM had "taken over", but Luna appeared to be in control the whole time.

I'm not sure about what she says being that universal, I can easily imagine it being a sign of indignation without any reference to the intent.

 

But I think you have a good point about her not showing fear. A good explanation would be that the process of turning into Nightmare Moon was gradual. When she came to the breaking point, her "transformation emerged' to the surface, but she had the nightmare within herself for so long that she really wasn't herself already at that point. Main reason I think this could be the case, is because of the Nightmares shown in the comics. Of course, assuming the comics should be considered canon. Thoughts?

[Pixel Stick 927]

 

 

I'm not sure about what she says being that universal, I can easily imagine it being a sign of indignation without any reference to the intent.

 

Her exact lines (according to the transcript) were: "Did you really expect me to sit idly by while they all basked in your precious light? // There can only be one princess in Equestria! And that princess... will be me!"  That seems pretty intentful to me.

 

If one does consider that NMM was already "infecting" her and in the process of taking over, then you could still reason that that wasn't Luna talking.  Here are my reasons for thinking it WAS Luna, and a conscious decision on her part:

• The legend in the first episode mentions that she became jealous and bitter when ponies shunned and slept through her beautiful night.
• In "Luna Eclipsed", Luna was clearly not NMM, but still showed signs of jealousy and bitterness.  Her "adjustment" to Ponyville's way of life demonstrated that she herself had some issues to work through.
• In "Crystal Empire Part 1", there was a brief hint of something - perhaps contempt, scorn or simply "I've got my eye on you" - between Luna and Twilight while Celestia was giving Twilight her mission.  (However, at the end of Part 2, the sisters are clearly in agreement over Twilight's next step.)

The implication of it being a conscious decision is also that Luna could choose to do it again at any time in the future.  She has good reasons NOT to, but that doesn't preclude her doing it anyway.  I know a lot of fans have suggested that could be the case, and Twilight's line ("Think of how long you were banished to the moon! You'll give us no choice but to send you back there if you don't stop!") before she realizes this is a flashback, speaks to the idea that Luna could willingly betray Celestia again.

 

 

 

But I think you have a good point about her not showing fear. A good explanation would be that the process of turning into Nightmare Moon was gradual. When she came to the breaking point, her "transformation emerged' to the surface, but she had the nightmare within herself for so long that she really wasn't herself already at that point. Main reason I think this could be the case, is because of the Nightmares shown in the comics. Of course, assuming the comics should be considered canon. Thoughts?

 

I know the comics are officially licensed, but I've never really thought of them as canon - mainly because they're presented so very differently from the show.  (That, and I've only read a couple of them and decided I didn't care for them that much.)

 

Between Seasons 2 and 3, when I joined this forum, I wrote my own little fanfic that touched on this as well, and my theory at the time had been that Nightmare Moon was a sort of disease - something that had slowly taken over Luna's psyche and turned her, unwillingly, into a monster.  The story was written from her point of view - just a night patrol, basically - where she reflects on what had happened and why ponies around Equestria still feared her.  So when PTS:P1 and P2 aired and I saw how they handled this flashback sequence, I decided, "Well, that was a nice idea, but apparently it's not how it actually happened."

 

I suppose, though, that we'll never know for certain whether Luna deliberately transformed into Nightmare Moon, or that NMM was an alternate personality that took over.  I just think the flashback gave us a clearer view of that than the legend did.

[FlutterSpike 30]

Phrases like "Did you really think...?" are pretty universally a sign that the villain knows full well what they're doing and that they fully intend to do something evil. If Luna had shown even the slightest bit of fear or confusion just before or during her transformation, I'd be more inclined to believe NMM had "taken over", but Luna appeared to be in control the whole time.

If I may interject for a moment, there have been many stories in many science fiction and fantasy where a character that is "evil" seems to make a conscience choice to go bad, but was later revealed to have been under someones control at that time.It is possible that Luna was not in control.

It is also possible that she wanted to be evil. 

[Metemponychosis 1,259]

@@Pixel Stick,

You think it's Luna because you don't take the comics as canon. We are on completely different pages here.

In my head, by herself, Luna wouldn't go as far as making an eternal night. It was a gradual process that blew up in Nightmare Moon taking over completely, by taking advantage of Luna's feelings. What we saw in those other episodes was "normal Luna" dealing with those situations. Adapting.

See, I don't even think like it was Luna that was banished, but Nightmare Moon.

[Pixel Stick 927]

@@Pixel Stick,

You think it's Luna because you don't take the comics as canon. We are on completely different pages here.

In my head, by herself, Luna wouldn't go as far as making an eternal night. It was a gradual process that blew up in Nightmare Moon taking over completely, by taking advantage of Luna's feelings. What we saw in those other episodes was "normal Luna" dealing with those situations. Adapting.

See, I don't even think like it was Luna that was banished, but Nightmare Moon.

 

I just said I don't believe the comics ARE canon.  I don't particularly care for them mainly BECAUSE they seem to be very different from the show - I feel that the comics I did read paint the Mane 6, Luna and Celestia in a very different light than the show tends to, so to think of them as canon stretches belief for me.  Now, admittedly, I haven't read very many - perhaps I have bad examples to work from.  But I am entitled to my opinion there - in my experience, most licensed comics loosely follow their source material but generally are spinoff stories and more often tend to be non-canon.

 

As for the distinction between Luna and Nightmare Moon: I know we're far from the only folks in the fandom who disagree on whether those two are the same character or completely different.  IMO, though, it's actually easier to believe they are the same (eg. Luna willingly became NMM), and that she could do it again at any time she chooses.  That makes her a more interesting and potentially dangerous character, with a huge responsibility and a heavy burden.  To me, having NMM be a separate being that takes over - whether that's a physically or supernaturally separate entity, or perhaps an alternate personality (in the schizophrenic, Jekyll & Hyde sense) - weakens her.  It makes her subject to an unpredictable whim and basically makes her a potential ticking time bomb - do we know that Nightmare Moon is really gone forever?  What if she's not?

 

That said, that sort of character can still be a great character.  If you haven't seen it, the movie "A Beautiful Mind" has a great portrayal of just such a person.

[justinjamal 6]

This was a great episode, I loved the tree of harmony and what it played discord was awesome and funny, i hope we.get to learn more about the  tree of harmony, and the mysterious box

[FlutterSpike 30]

This was a great episode, I loved the tree of harmony and what it played discord was awesome and funny, i hope we.get to learn more about the  tree of harmony, and the mysterious box

I hope the writers did not forget about it. I keep hoping that this plot will be picked up soon. 

[AlphaWolf 4]

I Love the new ed but it is a bad ed to but I loooooove it

[RarityIsTheBest 8]

This Ep. Showed alot of Twilight and her magic, but what about the others. Twilight has never been really hurt before and she is kinda over powered, the others should be more respected. Like Rarity but mostly Applejack. Just Saying.

[RainbowSwag 0]

Ok die anyone Else notice that the elements of harmony were a different shape in The first episode, and he placeholders In the tree are difference shape...

[silver quest 15]

Twilight's wings seem so much bigger than the normal pegasi.

[Pixel Stick 927]

Twilight's wings seem so much bigger than the normal pegasi.

 

I think that comes with the territory when you're an alicorn.

[silver quest 15]

The whole vine thing feels like discord. Just way more evil.

Yes discord MORE POPCORN!

Oh burn. AJ that's was huge offence to to new princess.

WHATS IN THE BOX. WHATS IN THE BOX!!

Edited February 4, 2014 by anipony

[Twilightlicious10495 0]

I really don't understand this episode, tree of harmony? When'd it

that come from and aren't celestia luna already powerful enough to fight against the plant thing? Plus why would they show celestia vanishing nightmare moon be why the sky is split and now twilight has no crown and what will happen to the elements?

[Quill Waver 1,408]

I would say this is perhaps the best of the season pilots (aside the actual pilot).

 

I liked the hilarity of Twilight having to adapt to her new appendages, and I must say that I liked the idea of the Tree of Harmony. I knew the Elements had to start from somewhere!

 

And -- I won a bet off this -- I called that Discord would return in Season 4!

[Will Guide 21,360]

After rewatching the Transformation to Nightmare Moon scene agian, I couldn't help play this music over it from Majora's Mask where the Titular mask reveals itself to be pulling the strings and ends up controlling the moon to Consume...Consume... Consume everything!

 

Start from 3:30 for a heartwarming start or go straight to 4:35 see the reveal and the music that I feel goes with the Transformation scene of Nightmare Moon.

 

 

By the way, at 6:12, I'm thinking, "Hold on tight, Tatl! We're blasting off to the MOOOOOOOOOOOOOON!"

[Bird Mom 900]

Well, it's sad that they had to return the elements. Applejack was right when she said that the elements connected them. And Twilight was also right about it's their friendship that will keep them connected. And I got furious when TWILIGHT became an alicorn. She wouldn't have even became a princess if it wasn't for her friends. And they get no recognition WHATSOEVER!!!!!! That made things even worse!

[GlaciesFleur 15]

I'm extremely frustrated with this season. I loved that the first three episodes had a connecting storyline of how they needed to find the keys, then they find the journal and decide to start their own- but what about the keys? There hasn't been a single mention that I've caught since episode 3.