Let's put some effort in, alright?

[Fubz 300]

Wow, what can I say?

 

This place has got the worst quality posts ever and nobody does anything about it. And if I do, then I fear getting warnings from mods for not contributing to the discussion, heck even if I do I still get a warning

 

The problem with these forums is that it's too nice. Yeah I know there are a lot of people moaning about moderation being too strict and whatnot, but seriously it's too nice here. I'm not saying being nice and welcoming is bad, yeah I'm totally for it. We're good enough at welcoming new members and keeping discussions in a happy mood but what's not happening is that new members are not being criticised for posting like idiots (as they are expected to ). So what happens is the situation we've got now with people who have many hundreds of posts but still post in a horrendous manner.

 

You may say, "oh! who cares if we post like this, its not as if it effects you in any way". Well, no, maybe not. But it does mean that I'll find it a lot harder to read and understand and it makes you look like an imbecile and 9/10 times I will ignore your comment. Not because I'm mean, but because you're too lazy to make me care about your comment.

 

I can understand problems with grammar and spelling to an extent but capitalisation is just a matter of effort and really, there should be a strict rule against it (that's if you're posting seriously)

 

Well, what to do about it?

As a normal member, if someone does post like that, be careful in how you correct them, people are easily annoyed by this. Also if they quote back at you regarding that at all, completely ignore them, it's off topic and shouldn't be discussed on-thread.

I also request that we're allowed to do this^ or as a compromise, we're allowed to do that as long as we have something else in our post which contributes to the thread. So basically I'm requesting that we're allowed to moan about the thread/post itself rather than the discussion.

 

Of course this is only a small part of the "quality of posts" problem that's here, but nonetheless I hope this could be a small step forward.

 

So overall, keep being nice and welcoming but please do not let people get away with constant low quality posts.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Fubz

[Fubz 300]

I hope this silence means that this is okaydokay then.

 

Yus! Time to moan and groan, for the greater good!

[Klopp 2,050]

Well, as a former mod I can tell you a bit of the problem there.

 

It used to be, back in my modding day, that we would do a whole lot of proactive moderation. Running around here and there, not necessarily searching for bad content, but it was easy to find pointless posts by simply being an active member of the community. We all just kinda wandered around the sections we liked the most and between all the mods we covered all the sections pretty well. Most importantly though, we knew what was bad when we saw it. And when we saw it we took care of it. Frequently getting yelled at by members because they thought we were tyrants. (Those were the good 'ol days)

 

From what I am seeing now, proactive moderation is almost nonexistent anymore. Pretty much everywhere I go I see pointless or off topic posts, far more than I ever had in the past and they aren't being dealt with. I can't know the exact reason for this, but it could be any number of things. Poorly trained mods who can't tell the difference between what needs to be and doesn't need to be removed? Lack of mods who are actually active in the community? Too much focus on Poniverse to the point where the community itself is allowed to run rampant with little moderation? Could be all of the above and more.

 

I can say for certain, due to recent events, that the current staff is not as good at their job as they claim to be. All the points you brought up here clearly support that as well. As well as the fact that they haven't even bothered to reply to you after 2 days when this section should be top priority. That happens to every thread posted in here, as well as the site questions and tech support section. It's like they want members to get frustrated sometimes, honestly.

 

Okay, that's enough mod-bashing for now. Let's focus on another point.

 

The other main problem is those same people who make poor quality posts are also the ones who are supposed to be responsible for reporting posts. Proactive moderation can't get them all, so that's where the members come in. Unfortunately, the members clearly don't know the difference between good and bad in this case. I don't really need to go into any more detail there.

 

So, to sum it all up:

 

Bad moderation + Bad members = Forums filled with lots of bad.

 

 

Still, at least it's a nice place to kill some time. :3

[Wayzer 1,418]

Well I see your point. I did see some entire threads derail because of discussions on grammar. So I see your point. Though I don't notice it as much as you seem to do. Might be because I post in the forum games section most of the time. What I do hate is improper punctuation and capitalisation in the rp threads....

[Fubz 300]

The other main problem is those same people who make poor quality posts are also the ones who are supposed to be responsible for reporting posts. Proactive moderation can't get them all, so that's where the members come in. Unfortunately, the members clearly don't know the difference between good and bad in this case. I don't really need to go into any more detail there.

 

So, to sum it all up:

 

Bad moderation + Bad members = Forums filled with lots of bad.

 

 

Still, at least it's a nice place to kill some time. :3

Ah yeah, that's what I'm basically getting at here.

1. Mods, whip your members into shape

2. What should we do as normal members? (And that's my suggestion up top)

 

Oh and I only addressed the issue of capitalisation up there because that's a lot more simpler but yeah I feel the exact same way about everything else in terms of quality of posts.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Fubz

[Flicker Sweet 3,391]

The issue I see here is that the Forums may actually be understaffed.  It has gotten absolutely gigantic since it first started 2 years ago.  The mods simply can't seem to handle all of the posts that are flooding in.

[Doctor XFizzle 8,651]

u mean wen ppl mak postz liek dis?

 

Yeah, it gets annoying but I don't care enough to correct it or call someone out on it. I'm more of the mindset of leading by example.

 

So post like Doctor XFizzle and you'll be cool like Doctor XFizzle *thumbs up*

[NewCalamity 3,454]

As the good Doctor says, leading by example is the best thing, especially a member, can do. 

 

As far as the moderation approach to posts that are unsatisfactory in quality goes, there's the "Pointless/Off-Topic" category for warning offending members.  A problem we've been facing more and more as our numbers grow, is that many become completely turned-off when they are mercilessly given warning points for an offence they feel they did not commit - as much of the time, these offences are purely by mistake and without the knowledge that they were doing harm to the thread.  Taking the amount of issues we've been running into regarding this particular offence, we've been mulling over what can be done about the folks who feel wronged too often by our iron-fisted will.

 

 

Okay, that's enough mod-bashing for now.

As you and most others are most certainly aware of, this site has become rather large, and proactive moderation is not as easy as it once was. More and more, staff much rely on paragons to rise up from the community and do their best to report anything nasty they come across. Especially in the weeks leading up to the Winter Holidays, folks are busy and may not always dive onto a report, or any other issue right away. 'Tis the Season.

 

In the end, report, report, report, is what you can do to help clean up some stray pointlessness, or off-topic posts you come across in your travels around here. Always keep in mind, our staff is here to help out as best we can - and in no way do we want to see nonsense linger any longer than it needs to.

[Kyoshi Frost Wolf 40,597]

As the good Doctor says, leading by example is the best thing, especially a member, can do.  As far as the moderation approach to posts that are unsatisfactory in quality goes, there's the "Pointless/Off-Topic" category for warning offending members.  A problem we've been facing more and more as our numbers grow, is that many become completely turned-off when they are mercilessly given warning points for an offence they feel they did not commit - as much of the time, these offences are purely by mistake and without the knowledge that they were doing harm to the thread.  Taking the amount of issues we've been running into regarding this particular offence, we've been mulling over what can be done about the folks who feel wronged too often by our iron-fisted will.  As you and most others are most certainly aware of, this site has become rather large, and proactive moderation is not as easy as it once was. More and more, staff much rely on paragons to rise up from the community and do their best to report anything nasty they come across. Especially in the weeks leading up to the Winter Holidays, folks are busy and may not always dive onto a report, or any other issue right away. 'Tis the Season.In the end, report, report, report, is what you can do to help clean up some stray pointlessness, or off-topic posts you come across in your travels around here. Always keep in mind, our staff is here to help out as best we can - and in no way do we want to see nonsense linger any longer than it needs to.

This is where I feel that the moderation of this forum is a bit overly strict at times and why I disagree with this thread, to a degree. The way I see it is this, not everyone is going to provide a deep, intellectual response to a thread and except for a few cases where it is clear the member just wants to increase their post count, it doesn't bother me. If someone responds to an episode thread and just simply says "I really liked this episode.", to me, that is fine enough. Does it provide anything new to the discussion? No, not at all, but it is within the realm of on topic as far as I can tell. Now, if the same member is making this exact response to every episode thread, then yeah, maybe message him asking him to maybe provide a little more detail than that, but that is the extent that I see.

 

That is where 'Pointless/Off topic' hits a wall, it is deemed different by all the mods. It is this variation that I have noticed some mods are noticeably more strict than others and much faster to hit the warning button. In a way, that kinda makes me afraid to make certain responses to certain threads. That isn't a huge problem right now, but it was getting there at one point. I also want to throw in that I was on a forum of 1,000,000+ members before and seen little to no problems with the staff, except for one instance. I think this could be because the staff there is a bit more laid back, while here, some apparently expect everyone to be a super intellectual and every conversation is a majorly intellectual one as well.

 

So my solution to the problem? Let it be, if you don't like the posts by a member, perhaps message them asking them about or more preferably, ignore them. That is a useful feature. I just don't see it as right to give warning points to someone and deeming it 'Pointless/Off topic' just because the quality wasn't up to standards of...whatever. Just my opinion on the matter.

 

Also, was the iron-fisted will thing sarcasm...? Probably not, but I would hope it would be. Not sure where an 'iron fisted will' would be necessary....

[duidamasterXD 9,626]

As NewCalamity mentioned earlier, if anyone is irritated by spammy, low quality or off topic posts in threads, take two seconds and report them. The mods are not omniscient, there are too few of them to read every post, status and blog here while still enforcing the rules and not making moderation take up an unhealthy amount of their time here.

 

As for the quality of the community, the staff can implement whatever policies they will, but it does fall to the members to determine what kind of discussions are held here and their level. My personal opinion on the matter is that when posting in a thread that isn't a game or some joke Lounge thread, to some degree we owe the person who made the thread and all the other people involved a quality response to the subject they're talking about. You don't need to write some fat thousand word thesis that people likely wouldn't read anyway, under the new minimum you don't need to type more than twenty characters. But if you have no intention or desire to address the subject or question a thread is addressing, then it's extremely simple to just not post in it and find one that you do.

[Klopp 2,050]

proactive moderation is not as easy as it once was

 

 

Proactive moderation is not any more difficult than it was before. If anything, it's easier with the sheer amount of posts that require moderation nowadays. You don't even need to try to find bad posts as they are literally everywhere. I don't even try finding things, and I come across them all the time. I don't report them myself for two reasons.

1. It's not my job. If I were to report every bad post I came across, I wouldn't be able to make my own. There's just too many of them.

    

2. I don't care anymore. The forums have already degraded so much in quality that it's not worth the effort to try and patch things up.

The only time I will bother to report is if something has the actual potential of being directly harmful or abusive to another member. If it harms only the forums though? Well, that's not my problem.

 

You may be wondering why I bothered to post in this thread at all and I will explain that for you, don't worry.

 

The main issue I have at the moment is that a lot of members seem to consider moderators and admins as some sort of omnipotent deities. Even the admins themselves think that. (Image taken from @NewCalamity's profile) That attitude simply needs to stop.

 

I'm glad that you guys get an ego boost from it, but that's not the reason you should be in charge of keeping the forums clean. You should keep members in line because you actually care about the place, and apart from one single mod, @Marcato, I'm not convinced the rest of you give a damn.

 

Me? I used to care before I learned the site owner himself is only in it to show off his numbers. And even then I stuck around for a good few months before giving up on being a mod. In the end, it's just not worth it when the man behind it all is only doing it to win the popularity contest.

[Fubz 300]

Kyoshi's pretty much got it. Although I still don't think that's the right solution. Here's a recent example. As Kyoshi said, reporting and giving warning points might be a bit too far as a lot of members get really upset by warning points. So I gave them a message, as you can see, and that's really what I expect the rest of the forums to do (except probably a lot less meanly). In fact I had a nicer example a while ago :T

 

Of course, there's no need to do this every time this happens but if it isn't done and is completely ignored, as is the case now, we're going to end up with quite a few members noob posting forever.

 

So, basically what Kyoshi said except I like to make my comment in the thread rather than the inbox.

[Arylett Charnoa 4,919]

Klopp pretty much echoes my sentiments exactly down to the letter about everything regarding this topic. So instead, I'd like to present a different view. And present it fast before this thread gets out of control and locked and nothing of significance is accomplished. (Which I forsee as it has been the general pattern)

 

First off, I will define warning points according to my own (possibly outdated) understanding of them. A warning point is not meant to mean anything horrible towards you. The reason warning points are given every time someone makes an off-topic/pointless post is because it is easier to keep track of the repeating offenders that way. From what I remember, the amount given is a very small one that doesn't get you anywhere near close to being banned. Of course, if the members feel hurt by these warning points, then perhaps the mods could stand to make a very nice and as polite as possible note about it, emphasizing that it's not anything super bad and it's just a small slap on the wrist.

 

If they're also inconsistent about what such a post IS, then this is also bad and means that they really should get together and make some kind of collective consensus about it, perhaps a thread in the secret mod forums that is pinned and requires EVERYONE to read it. Ambiguity leads to threads like this. Make everything super clear cut.

 

Now then, what DEFINES a low-quality/spammy/pointless post? Here:

• A post that is suddenly out of nowhere and discusses a completely different topic, rather than gradually getting off-topic as tends to happen sometimes in threads. This is obvious to most people.
   
• Consistently poor grammar and spelling. Doesn't have to be perfect, just decent. I really don't understand why this is a thing, as we all should've gone through basic schooling. Is education not paid collectively by all the tax payers so that we can make an intelligent society? Of course, I wrote some common grammatical mistakes in my General Roleplaying Guide. These mistakes should be known by anyone who has gone to school, not just RPers.
   
• And here's one that people really don't seem to know: a post that just says a statement and doesn't go into detail WHY that is. For instance, if you're quoting somebody and just say: "I agree." You could've just pressed the brohoof button and it would've been the same thing, except without cluttering the thread. 
   
• Most importantly: how much effort you put in a post can say a lot about its quality. This thread is called LET'S PUT SOME EFFORT IN. People who make low quality posts just put 1% effort and then press the post button without a second thought. If you try at least 30% of your effort, you can make a decent post. People confuse effort for length, saying that the longer your post is, the more quality it has. This isn't necessarily true, but a long post, due to being so time-consuming, can mean a lot of the time that you did put effort in it.

I acknowledge that not everyone is a good writer. Many people cannot express themselves properly through merely text alone. You don't have to be some book-writing novelist to make a decent post. You just need to know the basics of the English language, and the basics of conversation. And you need to put at least some effort to it. More specifically:

• Think of how, what, when, and why. More detail to a post can make it more satisfying to read, and adds more effort, which in turn is more quality. Let's say that you're posting in a thread about how Celestia is your favorite pony. And you say: "Celestia is my favorite pony." Now, the only question really relevant here is WHY. That's the most important thing to expanding any post. Always explain WHY something is. WHY is Celestia your favorite pony? How did this come to be? "Celestia is my favorite pony because I really like the way she looks. She has a beautiful design." Good. Maybe you could even answer the question: "When did Celestia become your favorite pony?" "Celestia is my favorite pony because I really like the way she looks. She has a beautiful design. I first realized she was my favorite when I started watching the show and noticed she was the only one who stood out with a unique model." And... that's really all there is to it. Your post isn't too long, but it also isn't low quality, spammy, or pointless. If you can answer any of the other questions, go right on ahead.
   
• Brush up on your grammar. If you're not sure how a word is spelled, Google it. It takes a few seconds of your time, and you gain more knowledge in the process. 
   
• Just try. Even if you're not the best, you keep on trying and practicing and all that cliche stuff, and you'll get better. I can guarantee that. You'll never have to see another warning point again... at least about low quality/off-topic/spam.

There you go. I realize that this post is most likely pointless as the people who NEED to read it will not, and like Klopp, I've lost all hope in the quality of this place being regained. But hey, I like writing guides telling people how to do things for fun. So at least it was entertaining for me.

[Heatwave 177]

Klopp pretty much echoes my sentiments exactly down to the letter about everything regarding this topic. So instead, I'd like to present a different view. And present it fast before this thread gets out of control and locked and nothing of significance is accomplished. (Which I forsee as it has been the general pattern)

 

First off, I will define warning points according to my own (possibly outdated) understanding of them. A warning point is not meant to mean anything horrible towards you. The reason warning points are given every time someone makes an off-topic/pointless post is because it is easier to keep track of the repeating offenders that way. From what I remember, the amount given is a very small one that doesn't get you anywhere near close to being banned. Of course, if the members feel hurt by these warning points, then perhaps the mods could stand to make a very nice and as polite as possible note about it, emphasizing that it's not anything super bad and it's just a small slap on the wrist.

 

If they're also inconsistent about what such a post IS, then this is also bad and means that they really should get together and make some kind of collective consensus about it, perhaps a thread in the secret mod forums that is pinned and requires EVERYONE to read it. Ambiguity leads to threads like this. Make everything super clear cut.

 

Now then, what DEFINES a low-quality/spammy/pointless post? Here:

• A post that is suddenly out of nowhere and discusses a completely different topic, rather than gradually getting off-topic as tends to happen sometimes in threads. This is obvious to most people.

   

• Consistently poor grammar and spelling. Doesn't have to be perfect, just decent. I really don't understand why this is a thing, as we all should've gone through basic schooling. Is education not paid collectively by all the tax payers so that we can make an intelligent society? Of course, I wrote some common grammatical mistakes in my General Roleplaying Guide. These mistakes should be known by anyone who has gone to school, not just RPers.

   

• And here's one that people really don't seem to know: a post that just says a statement and doesn't go into detail WHY that is. For instance, if you're quoting somebody and just say: "I agree." You could've just pressed the brohoof button and it would've been the same thing, except without cluttering the thread. 

   

• Most importantly: how much effort you put in a post can say a lot about its quality. This thread is called LET'S PUT SOME EFFORT IN. People who make low quality posts just put 1% effort and then press the post button without a second thought. If you try at least 30% of your effort, you can make a decent post. People confuse effort for length, saying that the longer your post is, the more quality it has. This isn't necessarily true, but a long post, due to being so time-consuming, can mean a lot of the time that you did put effort in it.

I acknowledge that not everyone is a good writer. Many people cannot express themselves properly through merely text alone. You don't have to be some book-writing novelist to make a decent post. You just need to know the basics of the English language, and the basics of conversation. And you need to put at least some effort to it. More specifically:

• Think of how, what, when, and why. More detail to a post can make it more satisfying to read, and adds more effort, which in turn is more quality. Let's say that you're posting in a thread about how Celestia is your favorite pony. And you say: "Celestia is my favorite pony." Now, the only question really relevant here is WHY. That's the most important thing to expanding any post. Always explain WHY something is. WHY is Celestia your favorite pony? How did this come to be? "Celestia is my favorite pony because I really like the way she looks. She has a beautiful design." Good. Maybe you could even answer the question: "When did Celestia become your favorite pony?" "Celestia is my favorite pony because I really like the way she looks. She has a beautiful design. I first realized she was my favorite when I started watching the show and noticed she was the only one who stood out with a unique model." And... that's really all there is to it. Your post isn't too long, but it also isn't low quality, spammy, or pointless. If you can answer any of the other questions, go right on ahead.

   

• Brush up on your grammar. If you're not sure how a word is spelled, Google it. It takes a few seconds of your time, and you gain more knowledge in the process. 

   

• Just try. Even if you're not the best, you keep on trying and practicing and all that cliche stuff, and you'll get better. I can guarantee that. You'll never have to see another warning point again... at least about low quality/off-topic/spam.

There you go. I realize that this post is most likely pointless as the people who NEED to read it will not, and like Klopp, I've lost all hope in the quality of this place being regained. But hey, I like writing guides telling people how to do things for fun. So at least it was entertaining for me.

I agree.

-end post-

 

Ok, for serious. I've noticed all the grammar issues in peoples posts all over the internet since I first stepped foot in this "alternate world." Truth is, most people who type like that really just don't care. As someone who tries to spell right, be grammatically correct, and uses spell checker as a backup (used it a few times in this post already, apparently I don't know how to spell grammar. xD), it does get a little annoying when I read posts that are typed seemingly intentionally to be spelled wrong. However, I don't foresee any efforts we can make being too successful. Maybe if the moderators enforced it a little, but then people would get butthurt, etc. Just like you said with your final statement...

 

Also, I had no idea what the warning points were for until now, thanks for the explanation.

 

I haven't been proactive at all in reporting posts, but maybe I could here or there to try and get something done...it just seems like in order for this to accomplish much, we need a few more moderators. Ones that are willing to help, yet won't let it get to their heads...Good luck, right? xD

[Marcato 2,143]

Now what I will say @, and @, is that the quality of this place has most certainly degraded. Unfortunately it's the growing pains of a community, many older members dislike that. Heck, I dislike it a whole damn lot. 

 

But I'm too damn stubborn for my own damn good. So I'm still here and kicking.

 

 

 

Me? I used to care before I learned the site owner himself is only in it to show off his numbers. And even then I stuck around for a good few months before giving up on being a mod. In the end, it's just not worth it when the man behind it all is only doing it to win the popularity contest.

 

Now there is a whole damn lot I could argue about this, but I'll only touch up on a few things.

 

 

 

The main issue I have at the moment is that a lot of members seem to consider moderators and admins as some sort of omnipotent deities. Even the admins themselves think that. (Image taken from NewCalamity's profile) That attitude simply needs to stop.

 

I would like to acknowledge this. Feld0 himself told me in the earlier days of MLP Forums he himself was running the forums as if everything revolved around him. He now completely regrets this as he's told me.

 

Now Feld0... he's a good friend of mine, and let me tell you something about popularity. Everyone wants it. No matter how much we may want to deny it all people want some form of it. It makes us feel accepted, even loved some times. Respected, looked up to, etc. In this world these things are more or less earned. (Unless you're the media.) In the end whether little or small we all have a desire for acceptance. 

 

Forgive me for this but... you two really haven't been that active around here, nor part of the team to see how things have changed on the inside. I understand full well the troubles you had in the past, I heard a lot about them. However regardless of what things were like back then they have changed. (For better or for worse...) There are those that have grown up, and many of those that grew up resigned. Heck, in a sense even Feld0 resigned. He's no longer in direct charge of the MLP Forums. If he wanted popularity 'still' he wouldn't have resigned his position like that. 

 

---

 

But let it not go without saying; your points shouldn't go unnoticed. 

 

Especially yours, Ary. As someone who has a similar passion for the English language I honestly can't stand the way it's degrading in recent times. (I wrote a ranting ragey blog post about it even.)

 

I would like to see people put more effort into their spelling and grammar and organization of posting even. It is so... SO much easier to take someone seriously when you type with great grammar, thought out points and structure, rather than 'my faverite pony is rd'

 

And the warning points... aah the warning points... they are constantly being debated about among the staff and rightly so. Consistency is nice and all but... in a group of staff ever growing there will be differing opinions. Not gonna lie, I'm a prude. As a direct result of this I tend to be overly cautious and sensitive about matters relating to inappropriate content. Typically I will ask others what they think, but ultimately that viewpoint of mine effects how I think 'justice' should be carried out. 

 

Though I'll acknowledge fatal flaw among the staff.

 

 

This is the typical reaction to things. And sometimes the staff go too far on the latter panel. I will not deny a large amount of the moderators come across as cold and blunt a lot of the times. Perhaps it's because they're too serious when things get down to business, but I personally try to display a positive and generally fun and caring attitude. (That's how I am, I'm not going to manipulate it to appear more business like if I can help it.) 

 

I know these staff members fairly well thanks to our super secret Skype groups and all that, so I've seen they can be fun and great pals, but their public image... they seem to change personalities in the public. I'm not saying this for everyone, but there are a decent number of staff that are like this.

 

 

So some effort on the staffs part, for any other staff members reading this; be yourself! Don't suddenly "serious'd" when locking a topic, or sending a warning. Express concern, use emoticons, etc. It gets your mood across way better.

[Flicker Sweet 3,391]

Klopp pretty much echoes my sentiments exactly down to the letter about everything regarding this topic. So instead, I'd like to present a different view. And present it fast before this thread gets out of control and locked and nothing of significance is accomplished. (Which I forsee as it has been the general pattern)

 

First off, I will define warning points according to my own (possibly outdated) understanding of them. A warning point is not meant to mean anything horrible towards you. The reason warning points are given every time someone makes an off-topic/pointless post is because it is easier to keep track of th

[Harmonic Revelations 8,834]

 I should point out that it's not always a matter of effort when it comes to spelling/grammar quality, people should remember that not everybody on the forums is a native English speaker. There are bound to be grammatical mistakes when somebody is not too familiar with the language as a whole. In addition, some users are younger and should not be expected to have perfect grammar. On the other hand, some people do post with poor grammar due to a lack of effort.

 

 I think the biggest problem with solving this issue is that there is no reliable way to differ between people who can't post with good grammar and those who just aren't and it wouldn't be fair to either group if we tried to punish them because of it. 

___________________

 

 As for proactive moderation, there is just a certain point where it's not feasible to scrounge through every thread, that's the whole point of the report feature, something that is vastly undervalued by the userbase (And to an extent the staff, too).  If people want to see things improve, they should put in effort towards reporting posts they see that do not meet our community standards. Reporting things allows us to get to rule-violating posts that the moderators somehow missed for one reason or another.

 

 Moderators are just people, and we don't have any kind of Orwellian way to monitor the users at all times of all days. I think we could catch a lot more rule-violations if people took the time to report things. Both moderators and users should work towards some kind of more effective system of handling things, it would certainly make things better for everybody.

____________________

 

 

Another huge issue is that users antagonize the mods when they try to get anything done. Users go on rants about how changes are "ruining" the forums and then they go on to complain that the staff isn't able to do their jobs because "they aren't changing things" once we finally listen to the userbase and decide to leave things as is.

 

This site has one of the worst user-staff communication problems I've ever seen, out of the many, many forums I've been on. I think the main problem is that the staff doesn't put enough effort towards user feedback. Luckily, people like SCS and Marcato are trying to change that for the better, which is something I'm sure we all appreciate.

 

I think that user-staff communication would also be better if users put in a little effort into being more respectful/nicer to the staff, and if the staff did the same towards the users. It's amazing how much more willing people are to help you out when you take time to be polite and courteous. 

Edited December 26, 2013 by Harmonic Revelations

[SCS 7,469]

Fellowship is more important than grammatical correctness. The primary purpose of this forum is to be a place for bronies, as well as non-bronies who still garner enjoyment here, to have fun, discuss the show, and socialize in general. While that does not mean that there should be no rules set in place, I feel that it is unnecessary to put so much importance into grammatical correctness and quality of posts. We should not conflate the forums with a novel or a news publication. Grammatical issues would most certainly be a big deal for those latter two mediums - grammatical errors can undermine a written work due to constructing obstacles between the reader and the ideas that are intended to be conveyed. On an internet forum, grammatical correctness should take a backseat to fellowship and friendly socializing due to the fact that this is an informal environment and does not need to be held to rigid communicative expectations. 

 

That being said, there should still be some rules in place to prevent posts that are truly pointless or off topic. However, there is an important difference between a low quality post and an off topic post. In a low quality post, a user is within the topic of the thread, but their post might not have much depth or substance to it. In an off topic post, a user is not within the topic of the thread and therefore their post detracts from the overall thread experience. The former should be wholly allowable within the rules, and the latter should not. This is because only the latter can negatively impact others. However, even in those cases, warning points should only be given out for the most persistent and repeat offenders. In most cases, the poster was most likely not aware that there was anything wrong with what they were posting. In those cases, a moderator should not even hide the post right off the bat - just send a message to the user in question explaining why their post was off topic, and ask them to edit it accordingly. If they refuse, then it would be appropriate to hide the post. Giving out warning points for all but the most extreme offenders would be unnecessary. It would anger people and drive them away. If you ask a user to edit a post of theirs that was off topic, that person is much more likely to respond positively to the situation and may end up becoming an active contributor to the community, if they were not one already.

 

However, posts that are on topic but do not have much depth or substance to them should not be against the rules. I do not see why every conversation or every post needs to be intellectual or have any sort of depth to it. Many conversations simply do not require that level of discussion. I personally put a fair amount of thought into many of my posts simply because I enjoy doing so - I love to write and I love to think. In addition, as a staff member, it is part of the expectations I have for myself to take the time to provide thoughtful responses to concerns about the site or the community. However, I have no problem with other people posting what some may view as low quality posts. I feel no need to force my posting style on others. No one is hurting me by posting posts that do not have much depth to them.

 

If we put too much importance into the quality or lack thereof of a post, we begin to forget something far more important: the humanity of each and every poster. None of us are perfect, most of us are bronies, and we all live in the same world. We all experience similar fundamental difficulties and similar fundamental joys in life. While posts that are off topic or pointless should be dealt with in a manner that uses the moderation tools as minimally as possible, posts that do not have much substance or depth to them should not be removed, and those who post them should not be ridiculed. This is a place for people to make friends, discuss issues ranging from the delightfully frivolous to the monumentally serious with each other, have fun, relax, and be accepted for who they are. Punishing or ridiculing people who do not post high quality posts, as long as those posts are not detracting from a thread, would be unfair and undermine the goal of fellowship and acceptance.

[Vexx3 1,540]

Proactive moderation is not any more difficult than it was before. If anything, it's easier with the sheer amount of posts that require moderation nowadays. You don't even need to try to find bad posts as they are literally everywhere. I don't even try finding things, and I come across them all the time. I don't report them myself for two reasons.

 

 

If bad posts are "literally everywhere", how does that make moderation easier?  That's like saying cleaning the house is easier because dirt is "literally everywhere".

 

 

It's not my job. If I were to report every bad post I came across, I wouldn't be able to make my own. There's just too many of them. I don't care anymore. The forums have already degraded so much in quality that it's not worth the effort to try and patch things up.

 

 

Than that's your personal choice.  Moderation isn't exactly a "job" either and apparently people need constant reminders that mods have lives too and aren't just machines dedicated to spending all of their free time digging through thousands of threads to find any thing out of line just to get screamed at and told that they're power-tripping egotistical tyrants.

 

 

Even the admins themselves think that. (Image taken from NewCalamity's profile) That attitude simply needs to stop.

 

 

It's not exactly a good idea to use straw-man arguments to demonize someone you have a problem with if you'd like to be taken seriously.  NewCalamity's profile is quite obviously meant to be read tongue-in-cheek.

[King 5,625]

 

 

I'm glad that you guys get an ego boost from it

 

Im sorry but thats a conclusion made from very little evidence. Anyone who knows NC would know that his profile was...as Vexx said... "meant to be read as tongue in cheek"
 

I mean fair enough if you made an accusation like that with valid and thought out reasons backed up by proof...but considering your entire argument if built off of a quote that was clearly simple tongue in cheek humor...I don't think I'll be swayed by your reasoning juuuuuuuuuuust yet.

NC is a great guy, and friend who gives up his time to assist with administrating this forum of almost 19'000 people. He's a war enthusiast (Or military tech enthusiast....something like that lol) and someone who is absolutely TERRIBLE at "World of Tanks" (Chigens told me to say It I swear :3 )

 

I've never once suspected he believed himself a "deity" on this forum, as he's always treated people with respect that would normally be given.

 

Now, please...this topic was opened in regards to the general work put into posts these days, not to attack the staff, so please keep it on topic


Nooow, as I was planning on saying... the quality of posts tends to degrade as we get more members due to a few varied reasons. 
New members posting just to gain different badges, old members copy pasting welcoming messages because it becomes too difficult to change it up each time a new person arrives....things like that. I do believe we should start to heavily encourage people to post more quality things, but how to do that...well, that requires discussion. Which I suppose this thread is helping to achieve. But a staff discussion on how to deal with the matter will probably pop up soon. Thats really all I have to say on it atm...
 

[Fubz 300]

 I should point out that it's not always a matter of effort when it comes to spelling/grammar quality, people should remember that not everybody on the forums is a native English speaker. There are bound to be grammatical mistakes when somebody is not too familiar with the language as a whole. In addition, some users are younger and should not be expected to have perfect grammar. On the other hand, some people do post with poor grammar due to a lack of effort.

 

 I think the biggest problem with solving this issue is that there is no reliable way to differ between people who can't

[Klopp 2,050]

If bad posts are "literally everywhere", how does that make moderation easier?  That's like saying cleaning the house is easier because dirt is "literally everywhere".

 

I didn't say moderation itself was easier. Clearly, there is more work to be done under the circumstances. I said proactive moderation was easier. Which is the same as saying "Because the entire room is so filled with dirt, it's extremely easy to grab one little bit and throw it out the window."

 

Moderation isn't exactly a "job" either and apparently people need constant reminders that mods have lives too and aren't just machines dedicated to spending all of their free time digging through thousands of threads to find any thing out of line just to get screamed at and told that they're power-tripping egotistical tyrants.

 

Moderation is still a job, and yes they do have personal lives. But that doesn't alter the fact that they chose to volunteer. Might I remind you that I was a very active mod while taking on full-time college and work simultaneously. All I mean here is if people care enough, they will find the time to help.

 

It's not exactly a good idea to use straw-man arguments to demonize someone you have a problem with if you'd like to be taken seriously.  NewCalamity's profile is quite obviously meant to be read tongue-in-cheek.

 

I don't have a problem with NewCalamity, he just happened to be the one who replied to me. I'd have found an example from one of the others if they had popped up in this thread before him.

 

Now, please...this topic was opened in regards to the general work put into posts these days, not to attack the staff, so please keep it on topic

 

Whether it was the intention of the thread at hand or not moderators should be responsible for putting in more effort, even more than any number of non-staff out there. Considering the fact that most members likely don't bother to look at this section, and even more likely don't care/know their posts are poor quality, that responsibility should be doubled. They are the ones who have the ability to enforce the rules and directly teach members what is acceptable, and what is not acceptable, on these forums. If they aren't putting in enough effort, why should the members?

 

As the good Doctor says, leading by example is the best thing, especially a member, can do.

 

 

Everyone can lead by example, but only mods and admins can lead by enforcement. In the end, that's the most effective. Besides, if leading by example were all it took there wouldn't be a need for any mods. I'd recommend all you staff members consider working a little bit harder, unless you want MLPForums to turn into the Youtube comments section. One would argue, it already has.

 

That's the last I will have to say on the matter. It's not my intent to attack or hurt anyone, just provide you with a little constructive criticism. That's what the feedback section is all about.

[Vexx3 1,540]

I didn't say moderation itself was easier. Clearly, there is more work to be done under the circumstances. I said proactive moderation was easier. Which is the same as saying "Because the entire room is so filled with dirt, it's extremely easy to grab one little bit and throw it out the window."

 

 

I know what you said and it still doesn't make it easier.  Because even once you've done away with that bit of dirt, you still have the entire rest of the room, and that can be easily overwhelming.  Does that mean the site is understaffed?  Maybe, maybe not.  That's up to them to determine.

 

 

Moderation is still a job, and yes they do have personal lives. But that doesn't alter the fact that they chose to volunteer. Might I remind you that I was a very active mod while taking on full-time college and work simultaneously. All I mean here is if people care enough, they will find the time to help.

 

 

Just because you were able to take on that kind of workload and still moderate the forum, doesn't mean everyone else can and should.  People handle stress and workload differently and it's unfair to expect everyone to be on your level, nor should it imply that they are incompetent as moderators.

 

 

I don't have a problem with NewCalamity, he just happened to be the one who replied to me. I'd have found an example from one of the others if they had popped up in this thread before him.

 

 

So what you're saying is that you were actively looking for dirt to throw in the face of the first staff member to respond?  How is that any better?

 

 

That's the last I will have to say on the matter. It's not my intent to attack or hurt anyone, just provide you with a little constructive criticism. That's what the feedback section is all about.

 

 

Constructive criticism offers advice on how to improve.  All I've seen from you thusfar is passive-aggressive jabs aimed at painting the staff as a whole as a bunch of lazy, narcissistic god-complexes and that's neither a fair nor accurate depiction.

 

Is the mod team perfect?  Of course not.  Could improvements be made?  Definitely.  But they're people, not some corrupt corporate machine.  Why treat them like one?

Edited December 26, 2013 by Vexx3

[Fubz 300]

Everyone can lead by example, but only mods and admins can lead by enforcement. In the end, that's the most effective. Besides, if leading by example were all it took there wouldn't be a need for any mods. I'd recommend all you staff members consider working a little bit harder, unless you want MLPForums to turn into the Youtube comments section. One would argue, it already has.

I totally agree

 

So what you're saying is that you were actively looking for dirt to throw in the face of the first staff member to respond?  How is that any better?

That's the last I will have to say on the matter. It's not my intent to attack or hurt anyone, just provide you with a little constructive criticism. That's what the feedback section is all about.

Constructive criticism offers advice on how to improve.  All I've seen from you thusfar is passive-aggressive jabs aimed at painting the staff as a whole as a bunch of lazy, narcissistic god-complexes and that's neither a fair nor accurate depiction.

Can you actually stop taking anything personal in here, he was just using it as an example and discussing it at a personal level adds nothing to this thread. Just as all my examples were just examples not attacks. But I understand the point you're making at least, so in regards to my last post (everyone), what are your opinions?

[Vexx3 1,540]

Can you actually stop taking anything personal in here, he was just using it as an example and discussing it at a personal level adds nothing to this thread.

 

I'm not taking anything here personal. I'm debating as you are.  If you think otherwise, I'd suggest we move into a private discussion.

Edited December 26, 2013 by Vexx3