Elsa vs Celestia

[EquineWhoDoesStuff 49]

 

When did Twilight use an illusions spell?

 

I'm counting visual projection spells as illusion spells. Basically any spell that creates an image of something that isn't there is an illusion, if not a particularly realistic one. In Bats! Twilight uses magic to create an illusory grid and icons to demonstrate how her magic went awry. In Testing, Testing, 1, 2, 3 She create an image of the Wonderbolts logo out of thin air. Since she was showing this directly to Rainbow Dash means it wasn't something for the benefit of the viewer, but an actual physically visible image. 

 

Granted that so far Twilights illusions have all had a similar simple and neon composition,

 

 

 

 

Anyway, your point is well made.

 

 

 

Thank you, I tried to make my walls of text at least somewhat understandable. I half expected you to say something like "Wow, I didn't know you had it in you! Usually your few posts in this thread have been concise, to the point and directly supported by visual evidence. This is just a belligerent ramble that relies on specific logical conclusions that we never agreed upon to make it's argument."

 

 

 

Still, this does deny Spikes's little thing in Boast Busters when he was impressed that Twilight knew a whopping 25 spells.

 

We can either deny that, or deny Cadence's bubble. It is a subjective thing to be honest 

 

 

I'm not saying it's easy or even common, just that it's possible within a reasonable timeframe. 25 unique and diverse spells is probably a very impressive number for somepony as young as Twilight, and an astronomical amount compared to what the average unicorn knows. Even by the standards of what's shown in the show it's an impressive number, I'm fairly sure that's more than the total amount of unique spells cast on screen in the show. It's implied Twilight has been working on learning those spells for at most a couple months and possibly even less time. We know 25 spells staggeringly larger than what most unicorns learns, but Celestia wouldn't even have to know that many to be able to duplicate the spells Twilight's been shown to cast.

 

Also consider that this is being said by Spike, who's basically Twilight's impressionable little brother. It makes sense that he would treat Twilight's accomplishments as even more impressive than they already are.

 

Nothing about it contradicts Cadence's bubble. Even if it did Cadence would win out, simply because her bubble was shown on screen but for the other we only have Spike's word to back it up.

 

I'll admit there's definitely wiggle room to interpret it. But unless you have an explanation as to why Cadence can learn spells deviating from her special talent then the only real choice is to say that learning magic outside of your specialty is at least possible, and even possible within a reasonable frame of time. If you took the approach that Cadence is immortal and has been around for at least a couple centuries than it still doesn't impact the point. I'd doubt Cadence would dedicate years and years to learn an anti germ bubble when we've never even seen her study magic. If would have to have been learned in a reasonable amount of time for Cadence to have bothered.

 

The reason I would say the germ bubble is advanced is because it would involve very fine and sustained sort of microscopic organisms, something that would seem difficult compared to the relative trivial effort it took for Twilight to master transmutation. 

 

Ultimately it comes down to how you sort Twilight's ability versus the difficulty of the spells she's learned. I would think that if an who's cutie mark has nothing to do with magic can learn a relatively complicated spell then an older and more magically focussed alicorn should be able to as well. Especially if you assume that Cadence became an alicorn recently and not centuries ago.

 

To me that says that while not explicitly stated, it's more likely Celestia would know that magic than not. And that while technically subjective the frame of reference given to magic in the show supports it, which is the only standard you can really give to anything not confirmed as canon in the show. If you disagree there's not much else I can do except perhaps pick all the subtext apart to the tiniest detail and argue about it at length. Otherwise I'll just have to say I think your wrong on that point, but obviously I wouldn't be posting to argue against you if I thought you were completely correct.

 

I'm gonna just guess and say we're going to agree to disagree. 

[Cassafrass 249]

Ohhh, this is sooo hard... >.< I love them both!

 

But I would have to say Elsa. I mean, there have been MULTPILE times in episodes where Celestia has been weak to the bad guy (take Queen Chrysalis for example) or has gotten someone else to do the dirty work (*cough* the mane six *cough*) for her... totally not cool. :/ And, come on, Elsa has freaking SNOW AND ICE powers! She can even summon huge snow monsters to do her bidding! Yeah, case in point. XD

[EquineWhoDoesStuff 49]

 

Magic has weird logic, it could be like Skyrim where the enchant bow spell can only work on boots and not helmets, etc.

 

 

This isn't a very important point, and probably isn't going to make much of a difference in regards to Celestia vs Elsa, but it's something to consider.

 

I was look back through the season 4 opener and I noticed something that might pretty interesting.

 

We're shown Sombra can use dark magic for all kinds of dark crystals and traps and mind control and that Celestia can use dark magic. You've already conceded Celestia could probably use at least some of that to her advantage if given enough time and breathing space, so there's no reason to continue nitpicking about that.

 

However, by some of the details presented in season four I'm inclined to believe that when Nightmare Moon did all those things, including her offensive magic beam, they were charged by dark magic. 

 

This evidence is enhanced if you put stock in one of the things Lauren Faust said, where she said Luna's difference of appearance from Nightmare Moon was because of "Evil magic". Which unless we're going to create a head canon about the difference between evil magic and dark magic than I'm pretty sure that qualify's as dark magic. Since she said this answering a fan and not in the show itself you could say that it's not canon just because the creator said it was, especially since she's no longer involved in the show. Either way it's not the main point.

 

In the show the color of a unicorns magic only changes in very specific circumstances, aside from non-canon animation changes, like how Twilight's magic changed appearance from the first season.

 

One of those circumstances is the alicorn amulet, it's not directly stated that it was dark magic. But it does say the alicorn amulet has a corrupting influence, and it does turn Trixie's magic a shade of classic evil crimson red. Regardless it's still stated that her change in magic color is caused by magical corruption.

 

The only other thing shown to change a pony's magic is using dark magic. For Celestia, Sombra and Twilight it changes their magic green and purple and creates black shadows. Changing magic color... Purple and green... Purple...

 

Wait just a moment...

 

Luna's normal magic color, shown in Luna Eclipsed:

 

 

Now, let's wind back a millennium or so when Luna became Nightmare Moon:

 

 

Ok, we've got artificially black colored magic. Not really conclusive considering the night and darkness are kind of Luna's sphere of influence, but keep the shadows that she summons to transform in mind.

 

Ok, lets jump forward to where she uses her magic beam:

 

 

Take a look at her magic. The first thing is that it's changed color from her normal silvery to a cyan sort of color, which at first might make it appear that it's definitely not dark magic. However... notice the accent of purple running along her magic! 

 

The only thing shown to change a unicorns magic has been corruption and dark magic. Here we have Luna summoning and being transformed by magical shadows, and her magic being changed to cyan and purple. Dark magic is also the only example of a single unicorns magic being multiple colors, Luna's magic changes color and gains another color that is also the secondary color of Sombra's dark magic.

 

I can't really think of any other reason for the animators to add that purple to her magic except to show that it's become dark magic. It doesn't seem to far fetched that there may be several different flavors of dark magic, perhaps pertaining to the circumstances or the magic user themselves.

 

Anyway, it's not really a game changer. But I did think it was interesting idea that those animation details seem to imply.

Edited April 19, 2014 by EquineWhoDoesStuff

[Forlong 1,725]

Refer to an earlier post in this thread where I showed she could indeed use AOE power pulses around herself

 

 

I'm not saying she will be in control, but when out of control, she'll fire wildly, ironically giving her a better chance of hitting Celestia

 

 

When were these crystals stated to be unbreakable? Never the less, the shields are only going to last one shot, so Elsa will have to recreate them after each bolt, meaning Celestia does have a chance of overcoming here there

 

 

It wasn't shown healing wounds, just removing a brain wash. Even if it was physically healing, Elsa's attacks are mostly all or nothing attacks

 

 

If it were so powerful, why do unicorns or alicorns never use it in combat? They just use standard magic bolts, either they are tactical morons or they are somehow limited

 

 

She has never shown the ability to do this, by this logic, I could say Elsa is good at sword fighting because her father had a sword

 

 

Never used it nor any basis for it

 

 

Again, never used it

 

 

Tell me when Celestia can shatter steel after milliseconds of exposure

 

Getting her angry might actually worsen the situation for Celestia. When Elsa is upset, her powers go haywire, making her unpredictable

 

And I could say the same to you, having pointed out Celestia's lack of raw power

1. Being out of control would not help her.  With a calm head and sound mind, Celestia would easily have the battle in her hooves.
2. Crystals, by there very nature, are supposed to be unbreakable.  The only way the magic would be able to break them is by breaking it down on a molecular level.  Snow and ice wouldn't stand a chance.
3. Magic Duel.  Telekenysis was used in combat.
4. Yeah, Twilight and Luna know how to teleport...but Celestia doesn't.
5. What do you call what Celestia did in The Crystal Empire.  In layman's terms, it was a illusion.
6. She knows petrification spells, which are transmutations.

I love Queen Elsa too, but this isn't a mater of who we like more.  This is about who could realistically win a fight.  Celestia is generally more power, more maneuverable, and smarter individual.

[Hive King 1,998]

 

 

Being out of control would not help her.  With a calm head and sound mind, Celestia would easily have the battle in her hooves.

Spray and pray tactics make her more unpredictable

 

 

Crystals, by there very nature, are supposed to be unbreakable.  The only way the magic would be able to break them is by breaking it down on a molecular level.  Snow and ice wouldn't stand a chance.

...Yeah, no. We don't know what these crystals were made of, for all we know, they were made out of talc, something weaker than glass

 

 

Magic Duel.  Telekenysis was used in combat.

 

I conceded that

 

 

Yeah, Twilight and Luna know how to teleport...but Celestia doesn't

Conceded that as well

 

 

What do you call what Celestia did in The Crystal Empire.  In layman's terms, it was a illusion.

That's not going to trick anybody, it's a smoky and clearly fake projection

 

 

She knows petrification spells, which are transmutations.

Yet she never even tried to use these in combat, either tactical idiocy or they are not practical for combat. You could bring up Trixie and her age spell, but it's obviously not that big a deal since it takes a good few seconds to activate

 

 

I love Queen Elsa too, but this isn't a mater of who we like more.  This is about who could realistically win a fight.  Celestia is generally more power, more maneuverable, and smarter individual.

This isn't a matter of who I like better, it's a matter of who would win. And in this case, Elsa wins most of the time 

[#1FluttershyFan 206]

As much as I love Elsa, I think that Celestia would clobber her. Even though Elsa has lots of ice powers and stuff, I'm willing to bet Celestia has a bit of control over ice along with her extensive magic arsenal.

[Forlong 1,725]

This isn't a matter of who I like better, it's a matter of who would win. And in this case, Elsa wins most of the time 

Only if you ignore all logic.  Celestia has 1,000 years of experience fighting evil dictators and reality benders.  She has more diverse spells and would realistically know spells that can counter Elsa's weather control.  Celestia is also physically stronger and can fly.

 

Doesn't really matter if Elsa has mastered her powers over cold and ice.  It's like a master of Karate going against a master of five styles of Kong Fu.  She could put up a good fight, but every advantage goes to her opponent.

 

No point continuing the debate, as far as I can tell.

[Hive King 1,998]

 

 

Only if you ignore all logic

Irony, thy name is spoken

 

 

Celestia has 1,000 years of experience fighting

So Equestria was war torn for a 1,000 years? If anything, she would have gotten rusty from lack of foes to fight

 

 

evil dictators

One of which was one-shotted by her, the other of which kicked her ass

 

 

reality benders

He humiliated her

 

 

would realistically know spells that can counter Elsa's weather control

Considering that only pegasi have shown the ability to manipulate weather and even then, nothing to the scale of Elsa's control, I doubt Celestia's minor, if it even exists, control will help much

 

 

Celestia is also physically stronger

Neither Elsa or Celestia is a physical fighter but if it comes to that, an army of snowlems would turn the tide

 

 

can fly.

Not the best advantage ever when you have to stay in line of sight lest you get BFRed

 

 

Kong Fu

What is this Kong Fu? Gorilla fighting? 

 

And it's more like a master of Karate going up against someone who's okay at several disciplines. Quality over quantity applies here, Elsa's spells are more reliable and easy to kill someone with

[Moss 95]

I'm pretty sure Elsa is not a Super Saiyan and has no dragon balls,so by my logic that means that Celestia wins.

[Hive King 1,998]

@,

Why is that necessary? Besides, if being a Super Saiyan means having a transformation that makes you blonde, Elsa does have that. Pay attention when she's making her ice dress, her hair gets slightly whiter

[Forlong 1,725]

Considering that only pegasi have shown the ability to manipulate weather and even then, nothing to the scale of Elsa's control, I doubt Celestia's minor, if it even exists, control will help much

http://msmagazine.com/blog/2010/12/24/my-little-non-homophobic-non-racist-non-smart-shaming-pony-a-rebuttal/

You continued denial of logic and show canon has to stop.

 

Celestia has fought Discord, Sombra, Nightmare Moon, Chrysalis, and a currently unnamed force.  Elsa has only fought two guys with crossbows.

Experience advantage: Celestia

Celestia can do a wide array of combat and supplementary spells.  Elsa can do a wide array of ice-based spells.

Magic advantage: Celestia

Celestia is a chess-master that has outsmarted Discord, thrice.  Elsa hasn't come up with any plans.

Intelligence advantage: Celestia

Celestia can fly and run around 45 kmph.  Elsa can't fly, nor run faster than 44 kmph (even that is overly optimistic).

Maneuverability advantage: Celestia

Celestia is a horse.  Elsa is not.

Strength advantage (if applicable): Celestia

 

Under no circumstance can Elsa win this fight.  Every advantage goes to Celestia.  Even if they somehow expanded all their magic powers, Celestia would still have the advantage.  Get over it.

 

You're in more denial of reality than Goku fans regarding Goku vs Superman.  Spoiler alert: Superman wins.

[Hive King 1,998]

 

 

You continued denial of logic and show canon has to stop

It would be most helpful if you'd tell me where to look in this gigantic article

 

 

Celestia has fought Discord, Sombra, Nightmare Moon, Chrysalis, and a currently unnamed force.  Elsa has only fought two guys with crossbows. Experience advantage: Celestia

If you scale this over the 1,000 years that Celestia has ruled, it's not much. Also the fact that save Sombra, where she had help, she lost. She does have an experience advantage though

 

 

Celestia can do a wide array of combat and supplementary spells.  Elsa can do a wide array of ice-based spells. Magic advantage: Celestia

Celestia has only shown off the ability to use anything Twilight would use, and even this is somewhat of a stretch. Twilight's combat spells are limited to concussive bolts and telekinesis

 

 

Celestia is a chess-master that has outsmarted Discord, thrice.  Elsa hasn't come up with any plans. Intelligence advantage: Celestia

She never out smarted him, ever. He was the one outsmarting her. He took the Elements from her and the Plunderseeds took her down, Celestia is okay at long term planning, but in a battle with no prep or knowledge on her foe, this means very little

 

 

Celestia can fly and run around 45 kmph.  Elsa can't fly, nor run faster than 44 kmph (even that is overly optimistic). Maneuverability advantage: Celestia

Ice floes could help solve that problem, creating pillars under herself isn't that big a deal, she actually did do that in the movie

 

Let me add my own section, raw power

Accidentally and with no effort at all, Elsa made something cold enough to shatter steel in milliseconds. Celestia was taken down by a full power bolt that was breaking stone and not steel.

Edge: Elsa

 

Elsa could very easily just super cool Celestia to the point where the instant she moves, her leg breaks off

 

 

Get over it.

You fail to understand that Celestia has been taken down by far less than Elsa's fire power and while Celestia has more magic, it's not enough to circumvent the monstrous power gap. Celestia is a building buster at the very best, Elsa is more along the lines of a castle buster. 

 

You could have the most skilled dwarf in the world against a giant brute, but it wouldn't matter because the power advantage is too big

 

 

You're in more denial of reality than Goku fans regarding Goku vs Superman.  Spoiler alert: Superman wins

Obviously, I like DBZ but Goku would get his ass kicked by Superman, anyone from DBZ would, save the mages 

[Moss 95]

@,I was making a refrence to my troll posts in the mlp vs dragonball z thread,where I said that all saiyans would beat mlp.In all seriousness it could go either way.

[Hive King 1,998]

As much as I love Elsa, I think that Celestia would clobber her. Even though Elsa has lots of ice powers and stuff, I'm willing to bet Celestia has a bit of control over ice along with her extensive magic arsenal.

No one in MLP has ever controlled ice, at all. By this train of logic, I could say Elsa can fire lightning bolts. There's actually more evidence to support that(lightning is created via static charges in clouds, snowflakes can do that)

 

If we are going to go assuming things, then Elsa can create lightning and heal herself(ice is used to preserve cells) and Celestia can give people cancer and use ice magic

Edited April 19, 2014 by Evil Dragon Master

[Moss 95]

@,Actually the wendigos did didn't they?But,they aren't the ones fighting.Krillin would snap Elsa in half like a twig and decapitate Celestia with one of his energy disks.Just my perfectly humbe 2 cents.

Edited April 19, 2014 by MOSFETv2

[Hive King 1,998]

@,

Why are you bringing up DBZ? And the Wendigos aren't ponies

 

As for DBZ, yeah, Krillin wins because unlike the Saiyans, he's not a jackass who'll stand there trying to tank magic.

 

Elsa has a slight chance if she can super cool her body before hand, thus giving Krillin frost bite, just as Celestia does if she gets the first attack, but in all honesty, Krillin crushes them both 

[Moss 95]

@,Just trying to get a laugh out of people thats all.Its much better if my MLP vs DBZ posts were read.If Elsa cools herself then Krillin will just launch an energy disk.

 

If I'mto be more serious,then I can actually imagine Elsa winning more often since without the EoH,all alicorns seen to fight eachother and other creatures by flying and shooting shit.

Edited April 19, 2014 by MOSFETv2

[Hive King 1,998]

@,

Would Krillin know that, he's mostly a melee fighter. Doesn't really matter, he speed blitzes before she can do it

 

I don't believe alicorns poo on people to fight  

[Moss 95]

@,People are mentioning the vast array of powers that Celestia has,but when it comes down to it,she jsut ends up flying up into the air first before shooting magic.If Elsa froze Celestia's wings then she wouldn't know what to do since she needs to start flying before she can begin shooting.

[Hive King 1,998]

@,

So that's why flying types are weak to ice types! I never thought about that

 

I know it's off topic but this is a revelation for me 

[Moss 95]

@,I'm just semi joking around what I meant is that celestia never seems to shoot until she is in the air,and if she can't get there,then she panics and doesn't know what to do.

[Jorguil 54]

This entire time I though the fight was like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeFZXNDz7uA. This is how one sided I thought of the fight in the beginning with the telekinetic attacks but since we have proven Celestia can't do what Dr. Manhattan did then Elsa wins.

Edited April 19, 2014 by Jorguil

[Forlong 1,725]

 

@

Your persistence is admirable, but futile.

 

The article I cited had the Fausticorn herself confirm that alicorns have all the traits and potential of Earth Ponies, Pegasi, and Unicorns.  Thus, you were wrong.  Celestia can control the weather.

 

Love how you try to belittle all the stuff Celestia did.  That is pointless.  Even her getting curb-stomped by Chrysalis is more combat experience than Elsa.  Elsa only ever fought two henchmen with crossbows.  That's not even equivalent to Ahuizotl, a threat not worth Celestia's time.

 

Celestia did outsmart Discord.  Discord thought nothing of her plan to have Fluttershy rehabilitate him.  Who turned out right in the end there?  And then there's that brilliant batman gambit in the comic books where she out-trolls him into a learning a lesson in friendship.  Elsa has not been shown to be either dumb or brilliant.  Celestia is, as far as any of us know, much smarter than Elsa.

 

All information says that the combat would go as such:

They would fire spells at each other that the other would be able to block, deflect, or dodge.  Elsa would summon a snow golem, but Celestia would take to the sky and take it out from above.  Elsa would try to hit Celestia in the air, with no luck.  Celestia would teleport directly above Elsa's head while she's distracted and crack her skull open.

 

A bit of an extreme example, but you're going to have to convince me that such a simple plan--that we all know Elsa would fall for--would not occur to Celestia.  Elsa would not know what to expect from Celestia and her powers are not completely under her control (blame yourself for that one).  Celestia wouldn't know what to expect either, but Elsa is a specialist, thus making strategy easier.

[Hive King 1,998]

 

 

Your persistence is admirable, but futile.

Your use of image macros in every debate you're in is similar

 

 

The article I cited had the Fausticorn herself confirm that alicorns have all the traits and potential of Earth Ponies, Pegasi, and Unicorns.  Thus, you were wrong.  Celestia can control the weather.

Interesting, however, even so, no pegasi has shown the kind of weather changing power Elsa showed off. They can't change seasons on their own, it takes many pegasi to do that

 

 

Love how you try to belittle all the stuff Celestia did.  That is pointless.  Even her getting curb-stomped by Chrysalis is more combat experience than Elsa.  Elsa only ever fought two henchmen with crossbows.  That's not even equivalent to Ahuizotl, a threat not worth Celestia's time.

Why would Chrysalis have more combat experience. Ever seen what queen insects do? They sit on their ass laying eggs. Even if it was a regular Changeling, not much battle experience since they are infiltrators, not warriors. This actually works against you since someone with less battle experience than Celestia trashed her

 

Even still, experience won't give Celestia a big enough edge

 

 

Celestia did outsmart Discord.  Discord thought nothing of her plan to have Fluttershy rehabilitate him.  Who turned out right in the end there?  And then there's that brilliant batman gambit in the comic books where she out-trolls him into a learning a lesson in friendship.  Elsa has not been shown to be either dumb or brilliant.  Celestia is, as far as any of us know, much smarter than Elsa.

One ocassion where she outsmarted Discord and even on that ocassion, Fluttershy did most of the work. Every other time, Celestia has been outwitted, to the point where Chrysalis's crappy acting wasn't noticed.

 

And considering that Elsa's ice castle didn't instantly collapse, she knows some level of geometry

 

 

All information says that the combat would go as such: They would fire spells at each other that the other would be able to block, deflect, or dodge.  Elsa would summon a snow golem, but Celestia would take to the sky and take it out from above.  Elsa would try to hit Celestia in the air, with no luck.  Celestia would teleport directly above Elsa's head while she's distracted and crack her skull open

How would flying in a blizzard help Celestia? Have you seen a blizzard? Celestia will have horrible vision and be getting smacked by hail, flying would be a horrible idea. It would be one of the worst things she could do as it will simply blind her.

 

I agree with you on the first part, but what ends up happening is Celestia is forced to the ground by hail and other blinding objects, resulting in her needing to get in close to actually see Elsa and thus get a line of sight. Once within range, Elsa lets out a power pulse and Celestia becomes bloody ice chunks on the ground

 

 

A bit of an extreme example, but you're going to have to convince me that such a simple plan--that we all know Elsa would fall for--would not occur to Celestia.  Elsa would not know what to expect from Celestia and her powers are not completely under her control (blame yourself for that one).  Celestia wouldn't know what to expect either, but Elsa is a specialist, thus making strategy easier.

How would Celestia even expect Elsa to use magic? We know magic comes from the horn from Spike in EQG, so Celestia won't exactly be inclined to know Elsa has magic, giving Elsa a surprise weapon.

 

You seem to think that Celestia is a tactical genius on par with Batman while Elsa is a random mook. I have them both slightly above average intelligence with Celestia having shown off better long term planning, but that matters little in a random encounter 

[Forlong 1,725]

 

You're problems with logic are piling up.  First of all, you're saying that two dudes with crossbows are more of a challenge than Queen Chrysalis?  That is the most absurd nonsense I've ever heard.

 

Second, did you watch this movie?  In the movie Frozen, Elsa's magic manifests as blue mist before taking the form of ice or snow.  Also, Elsa was foiled by a frickin' chandelier because she wasn't paying proper attention.

 

Elsa has ZERO combat experience, which a determent to her in a fight with a battle-hardened spellcaster.  Try as hard as you can to belittle Celestia for no reason, that won't change this fact.  Blindsiding your opinion is a very basic tactic that Celestia is familiar with.

 

Love how you bring up the blizzard that had no effect on the nonmagical horses of Erindil.  News flash: horses live up north too.  And they do rather well.  In fact, modern horses survived ice ages.  I think the ice golem and magical blasts would be a bigger issue for Celestia.

 

Once again, the issue boils down to a two-pronged problem:

1. Elsa's lack of experience and poor mental state makes it easy for her to get distracted and blindsided.
2. Elsa has no way of knowing where Celestia teleports to when she does.

You can't really get around that, because these are based on canon in the show and movie.  And you just deny the canon materal so you continue to claim one imaginary character can beat up another imaginary character?