What Twilight really needed

[Dulset Tarn 441]

So this whole Twilight being a princess thing. Some people were on board from the get-go, some were rightly skeptical after the season 3 finale. Regardless of what you thought, I believe we can all agree at least that everything that occurred afterward, from Equestria Girls to the season 4 premiere and finale and just about everything in between, existed specifically to justify Twilight's new position and say without a doubt "This is why Twilight became a princess." I know there are people To some it was a success, to others a massive failure. I know there are people on both sides of the fence here, so this thread is not going to be about that. Please no arguing about whether or not she should be a princess in this thread.

 

This thread is about an idea. Personally, I don't buy the whole Princess Twilight thing. But despite any arguments for or against, there's one thing that the show completely failed to do that makes it completely impossible for be to buy into it. I feel like without this one thing, all arguments are pointless and the concept is dead in the water, no matter what. So here's, in my opinion, what Twilight really needed.

 

If Season 4 wanted to win over anyone who wasn't already on board, it needed someone telling Twilight that she's not fit to be a princess. Someone for her to prove wrong, who can take the stance of the skeptics, bring up the points against her ascension, and then have Twilight shove their face in why they're wrong. This is the biggest problem in the narrative that I see. Sure, Twilight herself has doubts as to being a princess, but literally every other character is already on board. Celestia, naturally. The other princesses? Well it's not like they signed off on it but nope they're totally in agreement about it. Twilight's friends? They never even learned why Twilight became a princess, having been absent during all the exposition of MMC, and yet not one of them think twice about the change. Twilight's arc never meets any opposition, and 100% of the conflict is with her own doubts. She never HAS to prove anyone wrong.

 

Sunset would be the obvious choice. SHE wanted to be a princess and Celestia's heir, so it's obvious she wouldn't see Twilight as a real princess like SHE was meant to be. It would hardly take more than a few lines, too. Tirek too, he knows just how formidable the princesses are firsthand. How difficult would it be for him to laugh at Twilight, telling her that a pitiful, inexperienced little pony like her could never be a fraction of the princess the others were, regardless of holding their power.

 

But the best part? It doesn't even have to be a villain. How about Luna?

"My sister may have utmost confidence in you Twilight, but there is much more to being a princess than being a good student."

Maybe Applejack?

"So tell me again why yer a princess now? I mean, you've never ruled a thing in yer life!"

Heck, why not Spike?

"Twilight, this is a huge change! Are you sure you can handle a responsibility as big as being a princess?"

I'm sure you can think of more possibilities.

 

There are just SO many ways it could have been played out that it seems absolutely ridiculous to me that not one character called the concept of Twilight being a princess into doubt! It's like the writers were so averse to anyone questioning it that even villains with every reason to do so are instead forced to just accept it. To me, there's simply no way whatsoever to consider the ascension justified so long as Twilight hasn't had to defend it from anyone.

 

So what do you think? Is this sort of opposition as important as I'm making it out to be?

Edited January 18, 2015 by Dulset Tarn

[MechanicalDoom 300]

Eh.. I'm not really feeling it. Twilight's friends believe in her so very much. I don't think they'd doubt for even a minute that she could handle being a princess.

[Silver Letter 1,830]

They won't because it was willed by Celestia herself and one doesn't question her will.

[Dulset Tarn 441]

@@MechanicalDoom, @@Silver Letter

So then, do you think this hurts Twilight's arc?

[MechanicalDoom 300]

Yeah. I'm not trying to attack your points or anything, but I think the support of her friends was a good thing. Your idea could have worked, though. I dunno. I probably wouldn't have cared if that was actually in the episode. I like the way that it is now, though.

[Admiral Regulus 2,769]

None of the characters oppose Twilight being a princess because--pardon my language here--they're not assholes.

 

Imagine that you have a friend who has spent the past several years working and studying very hard. They're a good student, responsible, trustworthy, and generally a very good and irreplaceable friend to you.

 

One day, this friend comes to you and tells you that she's done with school, and is now getting a full-time job. She's worked very hard to get to this point, but her efforts are paying off.

 

Unfortunately, she worries that she's not equipped for the position. She's not sure that she can live up to the expectations of her new job, and she worries that she doesn't deserve it.

 

So let me ask you this. What do you do? Do you tell her, "gee... y'know, you're right. You probably don't deserve this job!" Or, alternatively, would you be happy for her and proud to see that she's accomplished something so spectacular?

 

This is a show about friendship, and good friends don't tell their friends that they question their abilities or doubt their potential. Good friends are supposed to make you believe in yourself, and in the show, the other characters are good friends to Twilight.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Admiral Regulus

[Dulset Tarn 441]

None of the characters oppose Twilight being a princess because--pardon my language here--they're not assholes.

 

Imagine that you have a friend who has spent the past several years working and studying very hard. They're a good student, responsible, trustworthy, and generally a very good and irreplaceable friend to you.

 

One day, this friend comes to you and tells you that she's done with school, and is now getting a full-time job. She's worked very hard to get to this point, but her efforts are paying off.

 

Unfortunately, she worries that she's not equipped for the position. She's not sure that she can live up to the expectations of her new job, and she worries that she doesn't deserve it.

 

So let me ask you this. What do you do? Do you tell her, "gee... y'know, you're right. You probably don't deserve this job!" Or, alternatively, would you be happy for her and proud to see that she's accomplished something so spectacular?

 

This is a show about friendship, and good friends don't tell their friends that they question their abilities or doubt their potential. Good friends are supposed to make you believe in yourself, and in the show, the other characters are good friends to Twilight.

Fair enough. Now change it around just a bit, so that your friend, who was in their third year of studying Physics, has been declared President without their intention. If this changes anything for you, then you need to reevaluate your analogy.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Dulset Tarn

[WindShear 532]

I do agree that it could have made for a good conflict. Going from a student/librarian to the co-ruler of an entire nation in one big jump is a massive increase in responsibility, and it would make sense that some would question her readiness to hold such a position.

 

I suppose its still possible for something like this to happen, and I honestly would kinda like to see it.

[Admiral Regulus 2,769]

Fair enough. Now change it around just a bit, so that your friend, who was in their third year of studying Physics, has become President. If this changes anything for you, then you need to reevaluate your analogy.

It changes nothing. Not to go off topic, but...

 

Do you have any idea how happy I'd be if we had physicists in office, instead of poo-flinging monkeys and gorillas? I say we replace republicans and democrats with the Tyson and Nye political parties. I would support this decision more than any other.

 

In any case, that analogy is still flawed. Twilight was a student of friendship, and now she's the princess of friendship. She was very close to Celestia before, so it makes sense. She was around royalty all the time, her brother too.

 

Point is, it was her destiny from the get-go, and I'm surprised that people don't see that.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Admiral Regulus

[MechanicalDoom 300]

None of the characters oppose Twilight being a princess because--pardon my language here--they're not assholes.

 

Imagine that you have a friend who has spent the past several years working and studying very hard. They're a good student, responsible, trustworthy, and generally a very good and irreplaceable friend to you.

 

One day, this friend comes to you and tells you that she's done with school, and is now getting a full-time job. She's worked very hard to get to this point, but her efforts are paying off.

 

Unfortunately, she worries that she's not equipped for the position. She's not sure that she can live up to the expectations of her new job, and she worries that she doesn't deserve it.

 

So let me ask you this. What do you do? Do you tell her, "gee... y'know, you're right. You probably don't deserve this job!" Or, alternatively, would you be happy for her and proud to see that she's accomplished something so spectacular?

 

This is a show about friendship, and good friends don't tell their friends that they question their abilities or doubt their potential. Good friends are supposed to make you believe in yourself, and in the show, the other characters are good friends to Twilight.

This is exactly how I feel.

[Dulset Tarn 441]

@@MechanicalDoom, @@Admiral Regulus

I find it very unsettling that you don't believe friends are allowed to show concern for each other, for instance when a friend who is terrible at dealing with stress has been thrust into the most stressful position imaginable.

 

But regardless, your points are kind of weak because there are villains who ARE assholes to consider as well.

[MechanicalDoom 300]

I just think that being supportive is a little better than not. If somepony doubts her, it would make sense, but not everypony.

Edited January 18, 2015 by MechanicalDoom

[Silver Letter 1,830]

@@MechanicalDoom, @@Silver Letter

So then, do you think this hurts Twilight's arc?

Her arc seems to be a done deal. I just said that no one questions Celestia's will. Not even Luna.

[Dulset Tarn 441]

Her arc seems to be a done deal. I just said that no one questions Celestia's will. Not even Luna.

Doesn't stop Twilight from questioning it all the time.

[Admiral Regulus 2,769]

@@MechanicalDoom, @@Admiral Regulus

I find it very unsettling that you don't believe friends are allowed to show concern for each other, for instance when a friend who is terrible at dealing with stress has been thrust into the most stressful position imaginable.

 

But regardless, your points are kind of weak because there are villains who ARE assholes to consider as well.

Villains who were defeated by Twilight and her friends, no less... that's all the more reason not to doubt her ability and her status as princess. They only saved Equestria how many times? It makes sense that the one Celestia trusts the most would become princess.

 

Also, Twilight has gotten better at dealing with stress. Y'know, character development and all.

 

And also, Twilight's low stress tolerance is all the more reason for her friends to support her. Having her friends criticize her would only exacerbate matters. Having her friends support her can help her to relieve some of that stress.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Admiral Regulus

[Silver Letter 1,830]

Doesn't stop Twilight from questioning it all the time.

Well, that's true enough but I still think a student doesn't question the master, even a former master like Celestia.

 

 

 

Going from a student/librarian to the co-ruler of an entire nation in one big jump is a massive increase in responsibility,

And yet, I can't fathom that Twilight wouldn't have seen it coming. She might have been unprepared to receive it so soon but she's too smart to not know that Celestia's plan was to make her a princess eventually.

[LightFlicker 91]

Friends are suppose to support eachother, but are also suppose to stop their friend from doing bad things , but in twighlight's case, her friends think that she is totally capable and responsible enough to be a princess, there for do not doubt her but support her to make her feel more confident as a princess.

[Cleverclover 1,525]

I don't make it any secret that I'm pretty much anti-Twilicorn (though I wouldn't be if it had been handled better), but even I disagree with this assessment.  

 

First off, this whole princess thing has been absolutely nothing but a huge party for Twilight thus far. In fact, she was busier before she became a princess. Does she have any more assignments or reports to compile for Celestia? Nope. Does she have any more friendship lessons to learn, write about, and send her on a weekly basis? Nope. So I think that pretty much negates the notion of her being "thrust into the most stressful position imaginable." If Twilight's life now is anyone's definition of "stressful", I think we would all want a little bit of stress in our own lives. 

 

Secondly, I find it odd that you would use Applejack and Spike as examples, as they have been nothing if not completely, 100% supportive of Twilight. They would actually be the last people to doubt that she could handle this.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Cleverclover

[Dulset Tarn 441]

First off, this whole princess thing has been absolutely nothing but a huge party for Twilight thus far. In fact, she was busier before she became a princess. Does she have any more assignments or reports to compile for Celestia? Nope. Does she have any more friendship lessons to learn, write about, and send her on a weekly basis? Nope. So I think that pretty much negates the notion of her being "thrust into the most stressful position imaginable." If Twilight's life now is anyone's definition of "stressful", I think we would all want a little bit of stress in our own lives. 

That's just another problem with the whole setup. There was clearly supposed to be an arc about Twilight getting into being a princess, so it would have needed some conflict regardless.

 

Secondly, I find it odd that you would use Applejack and Spike as examples, as they have been nothing if not completely, 100% supportive of Twilight. They would actually be the last people to doubt that she could handle this.

Really? AJ didn't seem all that supportive in the season premiere, and remember how Spike behaved in The Crystal Empire?

[sweetolebob18 724]

The consensus seems to be somewhat against you, but I think you make a good point. Maybe I'm just an old curmudgeon, but I find it difficult to believe somebody didn't question it.  Maybe her friends were happy for her.  But, not one of them even said "Hey, she didn't do this alone!  Where are OUR wings?"

 

I also agree, Sunset Shimmer was Celestia's student before T was.  Arguably, she was meant to do T's job & get T's reward.  I find it difficult to believe she never once even questioned this.  She'd have to be some kind of plaster saint not to have at least a few minutes of jealousy

[Jeric 46,836]

None of the characters oppose Twilight being a princess because--pardon my language here--they're not assholes.

 

Imagine that you have a friend who has spent the past several years working and studying very hard. They're a good student, responsible, trustworthy, and generally a very good and irreplaceable friend to you.

 

One day, this friend comes to you and tells you that she's done with school, and is now getting a full-time job. She's worked very hard to get to this point, but her efforts are paying off.

 

Unfortunately, she worries that she's not equipped for the position. She's not sure that she can live up to the expectations of her new job, and she worries that she doesn't deserve it.

 

So let me ask you this. What do you do? Do you tell her, "gee... y'know, you're right. You probably don't deserve this job!" Or, alternatively, would you be happy for her and proud to see that she's accomplished something so spectacular?

 

This is a show about friendship, and good friends don't tell their friends that they question their abilities or doubt their potential. Good friends are supposed to make you believe in yourself, and in the show, the other characters are good friends to Twilight.

 

 

Regulus, I admit that I honestly never had that thought before. You see, I tend to be in a weird nexus of bliss (that was intentional for the Trek fans) when it comes to an Ascending Twilight. I was not a fan until over midway through Season Four. I did not have the emotional weight you would expect from seasoned fans who experienced this event in real time, so to me Princess Twilight was always just a matter of fact. Something that was and as it was, just fit. Perception can be a funny thing like that. I have read and listened to many thoughts of how Ascending Twilight was a mistake. I have heard the defenses as well. What you posted was an approach to this subject that I simply never considered. This take would fit with how I personally view the world of Equestria and the characters that inhabit it, so while there may be a bit of confirmation bias creeping in, I love the focus you placed on the supportive nature of friendship. 

 

:grin2:

 

As Data would say ... YES!

[Dulset Tarn 441]

 

Regulus, I admit that I honestly never had that thought before. You see, I tend to be in a weird nexus of bliss (that was intentional for the Trek fans) when it comes to an Ascending Twilight. I was not a fan until over midway through Season Four. I did not have the emotional weight you would expect from seasoned fans who experienced this event in real time, so to me Princess Twilight was always just a matter of fact. Something that was and as it was, just fit. Perception can be a funny thing like that. I have read and listened to many thoughts of how Ascending Twilight was a mistake. I have heard the defenses as well. What you posted was an approach to this subject that I simply never considered. This take would fit with how I personally view the world of Equestria and the characters that inhabit it, so while there may be a bit of confirmation bias creeping in, I love the focus you placed on the supportive nature of friendship. 

 

:grin2:

 

As Data would say ... YES!

I don't have even the slightest idea of how what you're saying relates to anything at all in that post or this thread.

[Shad0wedDreamer 8]

Twilight becoming princess also brings up the question of "What does it take to become a princess".

 

Twilight has no connection to royalty and is nothing more than a faithful/hard working student of celestia that is very good at magic.

Edited January 19, 2015 by ShadowedDreamer

[Iiznocannon45 46]

It is true that her friends would tell her she wasn't worthy for the best for her. How many times did I say "her"?

[UnknownFry 169]

First off, this whole princess thing has been absolutely nothing but a huge party for Twilight thus far. 

 

It has been anything but a huge a party for Princess Twilight. She has been put to the brink of her limits in several major crises as depicted in Princess Twilight Sparkle, Twilight's Kingdom, and also the Equestria Girl films. Secondly she has been stressed with issues of inadequacy and also the all important meaningful question of what role does she want to play in Equestria as princess. She has also had to put up with some of the antics of her friends, and in some cases she has been socially and physically isolated by being placed on a pedestal by others.

 

Sure there have been some perks along the way, but Twilight has had to pay the price as well as take on additional responsibilities along the way. I would hardly all this a huge party, and any lesser pony probably would have buckled under the strain that Twilight has had to face after ascension. So far she has been up to task.

 

In fact, she was busier before she became a princess. Does she have any more assignments or reports to compile for Celestia? Nope.

 

Actually it has been explicitly stated in show that Celestia has been sending Twilight more books to study in Trade Ya, and Twilight has been depicted or mentioned several times throughout Season 4 of continuing to study her magic. She also had to attend to some royal duties on occasion such as being the arbitrator in Trade Ya or having to help clean up all the dark magic in Inspiration Manifestation.

 

If anything Twilight is just as busy if not more busier now as a Princess than she ever was as a student.

 

The biggest problem here is the fact that Season 4 underplayed the whole princess angle which creates some confusion on certain matters.

 

Does she have any more friendship lessons to learn, write about, and send her on a weekly basis? Nope.

 

Twilight is no longer Celestia's student so she does not have to do such frivolous work, and the workload on this matter been cut down since Lesson Zero. She still has plenty of lessons of to learn though, and Season 4 made that clear with the friendship journal. It does not make sense that Twilight would be doing the same kind of work she was expected to do as student now that she is a princess.

 

Different position brings new kinds of stresses, but you seem to be stuck in the past with such a  comment as friendship letters and reports have not been relevant to the show since Season 2 with a few rare instances in Season 3.

 

Fact is most morals or the lessons of episodes don't need to be spelled out again when most episodes are able to get the point across with needing to use such a tool.

 

So I think that pretty much negates the notion of her being "thrust into the most stressful position imaginable." 

 

Not really. Twilight arguably feels far more pressure now than she did as a student because as a princess everyone looks up to her and seeks her for answers to many problems. This places far more pressure on her to know the answers lest she risks disappointing others which is what she hates to do, and this was made abundantly clear in Rainbow Rocks..

 

Now back the original question of the topic here, maybe it would have helped had some other pony questioned Twilight at times instead of more or less keeping it a personal issue that Twilight kept to herself. However Season 4 did a nice of job of handling the matter when it was relevant to the episode at hand here.

Edited January 18, 2015 by UnknownFry