Why Aren't You an Athiest?

[J.J 918]

17 hours ago, Props ValRoa said:

If there is a "God", then I am inclined to believe it is existence itself. I don't believe that "God" is a religious concept. I don't believe worship of any kind is needed in society...just seems to be another method for elites to get people to bow down to them. I say no to that. I say were are all independent and the only fate we have is what we make with it. I don't believe in a "Greater purpose", other than what one does themselves, because a higher "purpose" to me, violates the idea of free will, as enticing as it is.

Human ego is at it's worst when it claims to represent the divine.

Sounds like you would love Zorilla Diabolus, religious institutions have done a lot of evil, but the independent will of Christians has done a lot more good itself than harm done by the religious institutions, nobody is going to hound you for not caring about others and putting yourself first, self empowerment is great, but when you are on your death bed your pride is literally all that you have, so I hope you make yourself pretty damn proud... The solace of greater purpose is something that can't be echoed in uncertainty, when you know you are living to try to will the physical world into a better place you feel fulfillment, it isn't that you "can't" do this being an atheist, there are all kinds of good atheists who have aided in the progress of mankind, but their pride is reflective of the original sin of pride, if you think you are only human it's what you will persist to be, some people are honestly to modest sometimes, there are all kinds of advancements in science you believe in and their origins actually stem very close to my faith,

I'm a Rosicrucian, if you do your research you will uncover some Revelations yourself, Christians believe in science and hermeticism, it just depends which ones you talk to, there is a logical explanation for a lot of information we've received throughout the years from human anatomy, to basic chemistry, these medical achievements and progress evolved through the endless work of christian scientists largely medical work, if you want to have a lengthy discussion about this my DMs are always open, insinuating Christians don't believe in science because some don't believe in a very flawed >THEORY< IS ALSO WRONG, I can let you guys have your echo chamber of appearing pseudo intellectual but if you want to learn some new things, feel free to message

 

17 hours ago, Celli said:

@Spook Conundrum 

Science and faith can co-exist. Science is the study of the natural world. No more. 

You're speaking as if what you say it absolute truth. And that's where you lost me. You don't know for sure if there is a divine being, just like I don't know if there isn't. We're humans. You just have faith and that's fine. I don't have a problem with faith, only religion. 

That's all I have to say. 

 

 

Now we're getting somewhere

[Props Valroa 26,046]

@Spook Conundrum

I do not see much of a point in discussing this further. I don't have the interest. I don't agree in what you are saying and there is no possible way I'll convince you otherwise. Believe what you want, but try to be more open minded other than saying that what you believe is the absolute truth.

I'll find my own truth on my own terms.

 

[J.J 918]

7 minutes ago, Props ValRoa said:

@Spook Conundrum

I do not see much of a point in discussing this further. I don't have the interest. I don't agree in what you are saying and there is no possible way I'll convince you otherwise. Believe what you want, but try to be more open minded other than saying that what you believe is the absolute truth.

I'll find my own truth on my own terms.

 

Again if you don't believe Christians greatly impacted medical science it shows how abundantly ignorant to faith you actually are, you tend to reject history for your biases a lot and treat the progress of mankind as something that is a matter of perspective and not concrete history, it's why the caduceus is literally on the side of your medical transport vehicles, this is like most atheists do though they want to be pseudo intellectual and in this case bizarrely reject history to some how protect their own bias and lack of information by saying they don't believe things that can literally be proven? How little about history do you know?

You can start here 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeticism

But I know you want to generalize religious intent as a whole so you might not be interested in the history thats responsible for almost every medical advancement in history and half of our chemicals discoveries, do some research...

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Spook Conundrum

[Props Valroa 26,046]

@Spook Conundrum

I'm not going to discuss this further. Think what you like. 

[J.J 918]

1 minute ago, Props ValRoa said:

@Spook Conundrum

I'm not going to discuss this further. Think what you like. 

I'm not going to "think" anything, I'm going to KNOW history... But I posted a link for actual knowledgeable context for you if you care about learning new things and not perceiving the world with blatant biases...

[Props Valroa 26,046]

@Spook Conundrum

What you linked there is quite interesting. I will have to delve into it, but, that doesn't mean it is the absolute truth. I treat most things as a large unknown, and for me to truly accept it, I'll have to come to terms with it on my own. I am open to looking into some of the ideas you say, but, that's for me to find out. 

It's difficult to find "concrete history" as a lot of it I am not sure can actually be proven as correct, and a lot of history is interpreted through other people, who probably had their own agendas for doing what they were doing.

This does not mean I agree with how you present this information, though. 

[J.J 918]

4 minutes ago, Props ValRoa said:

@Spook Conundrum

What you linked there is quite interesting. I will have to delve into it, but, that doesn't mean it is the absolute truth. I treat most things as a large unknown, and for me to truly accept it, I'll have to come to terms with it on my own. I am open to looking into some of the ideas you say, but, that's for me to find out. 

It's difficult to find "concrete history" as a lot of it I am not sure can actually be proven as correct, and a lot of history is interpreted through other people, who probably had their own agendas for doing what they were doing.

This does not mean I agree with how you present this information, though. 

You haven't been part of a religious institution that studies these beliefs in depth or has practice and ritual inspired from it, I do respect your interest gratefully however and wish more people were interested in how and why we have reached the pinnacle of scientific development we have and not just how the current state of our understanding of these practices and information works, there is also more you don't know, 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosicrucianism

There are still many of us in the modern day, not practicing in the medical/alchemical practices but more or less faithfully true to the belief system that birthed them... A lot of people think I'm just an ignorant far right Christian lunatic bigot but nah... Lol I just know most people aren't here for a history briefing...

[Props Valroa 26,046]

@Spook Conundrum

A lot of this stuff I don't really know what to comment on since I've never looked into it. I come from a non-religious upbringing, so religious stuff in general I am naturally quite skeptical of. In my mind, what I percieve from all sides is a strong and nefarious elite that seeks to impose it's will on the world by distorting historical and scientific knowledge to suit it's aims. It is exceedingly difficult for me to find any satisfactory truth in the vast majority of subjects due to this. It is something I have to reconcile with.

I do not like the labeling. "Christian", "Athiest", "Religious"...is all just terms to divide groups of people. We all may actually be saying the same thing in different terms, but because of those labels, that's what we see first. Kind of like when a bull sees red. I wonder if that is by design.

Perhaps there is an absolute truth, perhaps not, with this kind of material, it is hard for me to tell what is of genuine intention or of deception. 

Since this concerns the subject, I'd like to share with you a dream I had, actually. I have no idea why I am sharing this. Just morbid curiosity. - 

Satan was once a mortal man by the name of Midas. He ascended himself into what he became somehow, with "All the good intentions at heart". His skin turned a sort of light purple color and his fingernails turned black and grew long. His eyes were black, and he had a black crown on his head.

Satan was often personified as sitting in a golden throne and having a powerful king bowing before him as if he was his servant, representing how the most powerful of rulers can be corrupted. Satan had an eye symbol on the back of his right hand. Satan went by many names, another was "Phlegethon" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlegethon), that being the name of the planets around the star Nemesis, in my alternate history project.

[Dark Bun 681]

48 minutes ago, Spook Conundrum said:

Again if you don't believe Christians greatly impacted medical science it shows how abundantly ignorant to faith you actually are, you tend to reject history for your biases a lot and treat the progress of mankind as something that is a matter of perspective and not concrete history, it's why the caduceus is literally on the side of your medical transport vehicles, this is like most atheists do though they want to be pseudo intellectual and in this case bizarrely reject history to some how protect their own bias and lack of information by saying they don't believe things that can literally be proven? How little about history do you know?

You can start here 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeticism

But I know you want to generalize religious intent as a whole so you might not be interested in the history thats responsible for almost every medical advancement in history and half of our chemicals discoveries, do some research...

The fact of the matter is, while religious people have contributed the progression of scientific theories; that progression doesn't stem from religion itself. It comes from the individual motivation to pursue something, and you can pursue how to make better medicines without needing a religious framework.

[J.J 918]

3 minutes ago, Props ValRoa said:

@Spook Conundrum

A lot of this stuff I don't really know what to comment on since I've never looked into it. I come from a non-religious upbringing, so religious stuff in general I am naturally quite skeptical of. In my mind, what I percieve from all sides is a strong and nefarious elite that seeks to impose it's will on the world by distorting historical and scientific knowledge to suit it's aims. It is exceedingly difficult for me to find any satisfactory truth in the vast majority of subjects due to this. It is something I have to reconcile with.

I do not like the labeling. "Christian", "Athiest", "Religious"...is all just terms to divide groups of people. We all may actually be saying the same thing in different terms, but because of those labels, that's what we see first. Kind of like when a bull sees red. I wonder if that is by design.

Perhaps there is an absolute truth, perhaps not, with this kind of material, it is hard for me to tell what is of genuine intention or of deception. 

Since this concerns the subject, I'd like to share with you a dream I had, actually. I have no idea why I am sharing this. Just morbid curiosity. - 

Satan was once a mortal man by the name of Midas. He ascended himself into what he became somehow, with "All the good intentions at heart". His skin turned a sort of light purple color and his fingernails turned black and grew long. His eyes were black, and he had a black crown on his head.

Satan was often personified as sitting in a golden throne and having a powerful king bowing before him as if he was his servant, representing how the most powerful of rulers can be corrupted. Satan had an eye symbol on the back of his right hand. Satan went by many names, another was "Phlegethon" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlegethon), that being the name of the planets around the star Nemesis, in my alternate history project.

When I told Celli I was a "peculiar Christian" by perception of the common Christian I was not lying, most Christians are entirely ignorant to Christian mysticism and would look down upon such things from certain lenses, our deviation from the mainstream churches teaches the importance these traditions played in medical advancements and procedures and the initial understanding of the human anatomy, my faith is probably why I am so into Fullmetal with all of its obvious references to the kabbalah, these aren't traditional beliefs for most western Christians but they are to thank for most modern medical innovations and advancement in chemistry... There's a lot on the topic I can go into if you're interested

[Props Valroa 26,046]

@Spook Conundrum

Mainly what I am opposed to is the "common" Christian mentality that the vast majority subscribe to. In my comments, it wasn't directed towards "This" form of Christianity that you describe, as I don't know much of anything about it to make a proper opinion. 

[J.J 918]

2 minutes ago, Dark Bun said:

The fact of the matter is, while religious people have contributed the progression of scientific theories; that progression doesn't stem from religion itself. It comes from the individual motivation to pursue something, and you can pursue how to make better medicines without needing a religious framework.

You just don't know where this information I initially came from, I'd have faith with or without the advancements in reality, but this is information that predates the human perception of faith itself, just like sacred geometry, there is a lot we don't know ourselves about the origin of this material, but some that we know has origins from the intervention of a higher power

[Dark Bun 681]

2 minutes ago, Spook Conundrum said:

You just don't know where this information I initially came from, I'd have faith with or without the advancements in reality, but this is information that predates the human perception of faith itself, just like sacred geometry, there is a lot we don't know ourselves about the origin of this material, but some that we know has origins from the intervention of a higher power

How do you know it is a of a higher power, or just from an origin we don't know about?

[Props Valroa 26,046]

4 minutes ago, Spook Conundrum said:

You just don't know where this information I initially came from, I'd have faith with or without the advancements in reality, but this is information that predates the human perception of faith itself, just like sacred geometry, there is a lot we don't know ourselves about the origin of this material, but some that we know has origins from the intervention of a higher power

How do we actually verify that something like that would come from a higher power? 

[J.J 918]

Moments ago, Dark Bun said:

How do you know it is a of a higher power, or just from an origin we don't know about?

Because that is the framework of my faith, and all faith in general which is why it's not really worth debating with an atheist over, atheists want to dismiss the possibility altogether which is what I have a problem with when scholars have been recording this history for thousands of years, and we have closer ties to attributing divine intervention than we do the absence of such....

[Props Valroa 26,046]

1 minute ago, Spook Conundrum said:

Because that is the framework of my faith, and all faith in general which is why it's not really worth debating with an atheist over, atheists want to dismiss the possibility altogether which is what I have a problem with when scholars have been recording this history for thousands of years, and we have closer ties to attributing divine intervention than we do the absence of such....

I do not wish to dismiss the possibility. I just want to verify such a thing, and find actual proof of it.

[J.J 918]

Moments ago, Props ValRoa said:

I do not wish to dismiss the possibility. I just want to verify such a thing, and find actual proof of it.

Than you are possibly agnostic...

[Dark Bun 681]

3 minutes ago, Spook Conundrum said:

Because that is the framework of my faith, and all faith in general which is why it's not really worth debating with an atheist over, atheists want to dismiss the possibility altogether which is what I have a problem with when scholars have been recording this history for thousands of years, and we have closer ties to attributing divine intervention than we do the absence of such....

You can still be agnostic and a Christian or any other faith. Being gnostic or agnostic is probably what I'd rather talk about, because whether someone is 100% sure God is real or not real, I find it odd either way.

Do you consider yourself gnostic?

[J.J 918]

6 minutes ago, Dark Bun said:

You can still be agnostic and a Christian or any other faith. Being gnostic or agnostic is probably what I'd rather talk about, because whether someone is 100% sure God is real or not real, I find it odd either way.

Do you consider yourself gnostic?

Definitely more gnostic than belonging to a particular religious institution, I think there are pieces of the puzzle held in and throughout different religious cultures throughout the globe and far to many unanswered questions about how some of these cultures had such similar traditions around the same time, architectural intuitions, and other coincidental medical advancements without being involved with each other's cultures in the least bit...

I have a lot of wacky personal spiritual beliefs as well, like the coinciding of demonic entities and other non physical entities that don't materialize in the human form, I believe in the"power of Juju" xD to deeply to trust a world that prides itself in it's advancement in the use of mojo 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Spook Conundrum

[Splashee 28,537]

@Spook Conundrum, @Dark Bun, @Props ValRoa and the OP @Midnight Gaze

A discussion like this fits the Debate Pit better. This thread will be closed.

[Courageous Thunder Dash 7,809]

Heya, I'm going to unlock this thread because it's a good question thread that yes, can spur debate but...it's not really fair to others to close a thread because of 3 people...

@Spook Conundrum @Dark Bun @Props ValRoa Perhaps you could continue your discussion in PM or create a thread centered around your discussion. 

I myself am not an atheist because I believe that Jesus died for me and rose again and is coming back to take His people to heaven. 

[Stancet 674]

Why am I not an athiest?

Because God has proven to me that He loves me.

I know many people will feel like that's a weak argument, or maybe you feel like God has let you down. If that's you, I hope and pray you'll know just how much God does love you.

[Bimbola2005 15]

Well, I am one; I don’t believe in any form of religion…

[Props Valroa 26,046]

3 minutes ago, Bimbola2005 said:

Well, I am one; I don’t believe in any form of religion…

You and me both. 

[Bimbola2005 15]

Oh well, I actually posted my comment before reading the entire thread, so I got interested on it and read it all…

It was… definitely something, there were a lot of interesting philosophies…

…and fights!