Drawponies tracing scandal!

[Sceethe 704]

I'll be straight up about this.

 

It's about money.

 

Which is stupid.  Because, seriously... he makes a few bucks?  A few Benjamins at most? (I don't actually know what he made)...  Whilst Hasbro makes millions of dollars from their stuff.  

 

*sigh*

 

Yeah, he shouldn't have done it.  But not because it's stealing; not because it's lazy.  He shouldn't have done it because his artwork should be original.  

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that nobody should care at all.  But why of all things is an artist tracing his work becoming such a huge deal?  He doesn't deserved to be ridiculed the way he is.  He flat out admitted without hesitation what he did.  He's an honest man.  

 

How many of y'all putting him down have downloaded music, or downloaded videos (ex: episodes of a certain show, wink wink) that were supposed to be bought/paid for, but you got them for free?

 

*cough* Guilty as charged, your Honor.

 

But nobody cares!  Shit, Hasbro even used to let episodes remain on YouTube for a while before taking them down.  Why?  It helped attract new folks to the show who wouldn't have otherwise had the chance to see it.  Now, of course, certain levels of piracy go beyond YouTube...

 

Anyway, Drawponies should receive the shake of a finger, and he should give back any money he got from the traces.

 

---

 

A long time ago there used to be a sort of motto or slogan that bronies, or at least the majority, normally abided by...

 

Can anyone remembe--- OH, now I remember!

 

Love and Tolerance.

 

Sure seems like a lot of toleration has gone down the drain... Someone, hurry, get me fishin' line and a hook, maybe I can catch it before it's too far gone!

 

~ Miles

Just to clarify for you, since it seems you didn´t read the article, or informed yourself about what is going on:

He doesn´t make "a few bucks"

He makes his entire living out of it.

 

But i guess we should love and tolerate thieves who steal from shops and other dishonest people, too.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Sceethe

[Zhortac 1,474]

Alright, this is completely ridiculous. Listen up.

 

First of all, people need to seriously calm down. Stop calling Drawponies a "piece of shit" for tracing some damn art, as if any of you have never violated any copyright law yourself. How much art work is for sale, how many games and videos have been made, how much money has been made, all off Hasbro's IP? How many Patreon accounts are set up which are based off MLP which rake in cash off it? Profiting off a giant IP like this is nothing new.

 

Why is THIS of all things getting such an uproar? So he traced some of the show for some of his pieces which were sold at conventions. Who cares? To me it was fairly obvious, and I don't think it's "vile" or whatever. Even if he hand-drew all of the traced pictures, it would have looked extremely similar anyway. All he was doing was saving time.

 

Maybe if he was tracing other small-time artist's work, and selling it as his own, I'd have a solid reason to be pissed. But, I doubt this one dude's art out of the massive sea of copyright infringing works is going to hurt Hasbro in any conceivable way. Yeah he shouldn't have traced it, sure, to be make it more of "his own". It was lazy of him, and he should be selling original content from here-on at conventions. But, he doesn't deserve this much slander.

 

Oh yes he does. He was making enough money off his tracing crap to not have to work a job, and have enough to go to all the cons, and afford to get a space for a stall. This isn't just making a bit of money on the side, he was making a living and more off tracing official screenshots. Real artists are lucky to make a enough on their stuff to pay bills, and afford food.

 

And saving time? His real art looks nothing like what the crap he sold to people looks like. Seriously, look it up. What he didn't draw is pretty damn different then the traced crap he made money off of.

 

This is a slap to the face to everyone who tries to draw, and hope to get somewhere with their work. Not to mention the fact he kept it going for over 2 years, and doesn't even say anything about it, until now after he got caught.

[Miles 2,512]

Just to clarify for you, since it seems you didn´t read the article, or informed yourself about what is going on:

He doesn´t make "a few bucks"

He makes his entire living out of it.

 

But i guess we should love and tolerate thieves who steal from shops and other dishonest people, too.

 

For the record, before I respond to the main point:

 

I do love and tolerate thieves and dishonest people.  Why?  Because if nobody cares about them, there'll be nobody to help guide them in the right direction.  Furthermore: Thieves who steal from stores are not causing harm to another person.  About the only people I don't love and tolerate are people who cause harm to others.  Until the day comes that when a thief takes an item and walks out the door, and it causes someone in the store to have bruises, a broken bone, or or mental-emotional scarring, I will continue to love and tolerate them, and anyone who doesn't cause others harm.  

 

 

 

---

 

To the main point:

 

First of all, I refuse to believe he has actually "made a living" only from the specific artwork that was traced.  He's made plenty of original works of his own, too, which he has obviously had to make money from them as well.

 

Second of all, even if he did make a living solely from traced work, not from original work, (which, again, I don't believe it), I still stand by every word I said.  He doesn't deserve to be ridiculed so much.  

 

Lastly, despite the moral/ethical and legal side of it... It's not like traced work just magically comes about - it's not like it didn't take effort to do.  Whether or not those works were traced, they still take skill, effort, and time to make.  So albeit that they're unoriginal, they aren't effortless.  

 

---

 

"It seems" you really don't know who you're talking to.   

 

~ Miles

[Guest90210 3,568]

Still don't know how this blew up. I swear this fandom just loves drama, no matter how insignificant.

 

Real artists are lucky to make a enough on their stuff to pay bills, and afford food.

 

"Real" artists?

 

 

Clearly, Neil is a real artist. You speak as if every single shred of art he's done has been unoriginal and fully traced.

 

 

And saving time? His real art looks nothing like what the crap he sold to people looks like. Seriously, look it up. What he didn't draw is pretty damn different then the traced crap he made money off of.

 

I've seen his art around every now and then, and I've always thought it looked similar to the show's artwork. So he sold a few pieces of art that was traced from the show, while still surrounded by other original stuff he did. Who cares? Is this really that big of a deal? Is he the first to make money off Hasbro's giant IP? Hint: The answer is no. In fact, we're posting on a site that makes profit off Hasbro's IP right now.

 

 

This is a slap to the face to everyone who tries to draw, and hope to get somewhere with their work. Not to mention the fact he kept it going for over 2 years, and doesn't even say anything about it, until now after he got caught.

 

Is it dishonest? Sure. Lazy? Eeyup. A "slap in the face"? Not really, at least in the context of the art he's trying to make. His art already looked similar to the show's. Tracing was lazy, but not even close to "vile". He was not tracing Jimmy Just-Started-Drawing's art; he was tracing show art for some of his pieces. Most of his profit had nothing to do with the traced work.

But i guess we should love and tolerate thieves who steal from shops and other dishonest people, too.

 

Not really a fair comparison imo. When you steal from a store, an actual product is lost and gone off the shelf. When you... trace some pony art from screenshots of the show, nothing is lost.

[Lil'Cinnamon 1,587]

I might as well put in things I know, well, I know the guy well enough, I've met him multiple times, I've hugged him multiple times, I have friends I know personally that WORK for him, and I also have talked to him a plenty and because I have seen him often and also whenever I would see him he would recognize me and such.

 

You guys should really cut this guy some slack, I've known he has used references and what you call "traced" art. A specific poster of Rainbow Dash I could tell was from a shot from "The Mysterious Mare Do Well" because It's an iconic shot.

 

He does lots of original work, and also does digital art pretty well. In his defense he didn't "Trace" it he mainly used shots as references and used them. He did admit he did some tracing to do deadlines but seriously..

 

All these death wishes and he should go blah blah blah and stuff is just far-fetched and downright childish.

 

He is a really nice guy, he wants to do this for a living, and have you seen what he said up there? He wants to stop the "traced" art at conventions and stuff.

 

As someone who knows him, he does NOT deserve this much ridicule. Cut him some slack. He does great work nonetheless and definitely has talent in my honest opinion.

 

But yeah. That's what I have to say in the matter.

[Celli 4,337]

I honestly couldn't care less. I bought a print from him:

But, it's whatever.

Also, Rivendare makes a good point.

Just sayin'.

[Sceethe 704]

For the record, before I respond to the main point:

 

I do love and tolerate thieves and dishonest people.  Why?  Because if nobody cares about them, there'll be nobody to help guide them in the right direction.  Furthermore: Thieves who steal from stores are not causing harm to another person.  About the only people I don't love and tolerate are people who cause harm to others.  Until the day comes that when a thief takes an item and walks out the door, and it causes someone in the store to have bruises, a broken bone, or or mental-emotional scarring, I will continue to love and tolerate them, and anyone who doesn't cause others harm.  

 

 

 

---

 

To the main point:

 

First of all, I refuse to believe he has actually "made a living" only from the specific artwork that was traced.  He's made plenty of original works of his own, too, which he has obviously had to make money from them as well.

 

Second of all, even if he did make a living solely from traced work, not from original work, (which, again, I don't believe it), I still stand by every word I said.  He doesn't deserve to be ridiculed so much.  

 

Lastly, despite the moral/ethical and legal side of it... It's not like traced work just magically comes about - it's not like it didn't take effort to do.  Whether or not those works were traced, they still take skill, effort, and time to make.  So albeit that they're unoriginal, they aren't effortless.  

 

---

 

"It seems" you really don't know who you're talking to.   

 

~ Miles

Thieves who steal because they cannot afford anything because of the lack of money are a different thing to someone clearly in the financial state to go work(or, if he is really into art like he claims to be,practice to the point where he gets good at it), but just choosing to steal someone else´s art because he is too lazy to do anything by himself.

 

I don´t think it is fine to call him names and and wishing him a horrible life like some people have done here, but ridiculing him for clearly showing how he traces his art on a livestream... that is like someone stealing a car, filming himself while doing it and putting that on their own social media account.

I am not gonna try to change your opinion, but i hope you can see how that IS kind of funny, and laughable for someone to do.

.

Again, i don´t wish him a crappy life, it just really makes me angry that people like you think that it is okay to steal someone else´s art. that is all this is about for me.

[Kay Dreamer 884]

@@Lil'Cinnamon, @, @@Miles, 

 

The real issue isn't that he traced his art. I have no respect for people who trace, it's absolutely useless as a method for improvement, but it harms no one when done for personal use. However, the line is crossed when you start making money off your traced works.

 

This guy took his traced art to conventions and sold it there. He's traced art and profited from it. That is unethical and dishonest. His ill-gained popularity also drew customers away from artists who were doing the right thing and creating original work, siphoning profits which might have otherwise gone to people with genuine talent.

 

It is true that all fan artists who sell their work exist in a legal grey area. We know that. Most companies turn a blind eye because the growth of a fandom depends on fans generating creative media, and a big fandom will spill money into official merchandise. (In short; our existence boost the value of that company's IP. That is true of fans who create art, host fan sites, make plushies, make videos, write songs and write fan fiction. By saturating popular culture with all things MLP, we help Hasbro make more money!)

 

However, we artists maintain standards among ourselves. One standard is that artwork is expected to be original, and created entirely by the artist selling it. Directly copying show assets line-for-line and selling these slides outside of that grey area we exist in. We are tolerated by companies like Hasbro because we adapt existing IP into original work with it's own artistic merit, in such a way that doesn't diminish the company's profits. Making a quick buck by tracing elements directly from screencaps has no intrinsic artistic value whatsoever, and being traced from a screenshot out of the actual show places it on morally dubious ground. The 'art' wasn't drawn by him; it was drawn by the animators on the show. Why should he profit at all?

 

Fan artists put their metaphorical blood, sweat and tears into creating original work. These things take hours. Creating art is not fast, nor is it easy. So for someone to claim cheap traces as original creations and profit from them spits in the face of legitimate artists. (For the record, I don't particularly care for art which resembles the style of the show to the point where it's basically indistinguishable. Part of the point of fan art, in my eyes, it that it's supposed to offer a unique interpretation of a character which wouldn't exist otherwise.)

 

While I think it's wrong that people are harassing and tormenting Drawponies to the extent that they are, what he has done is wrong and he certainly deserves to lose his fanbase and livelihood for it. It's a hard lesson for him to learn, but perhaps in the future he will come to appreciate the value of hard and honest work.

[skysweep 541]

Its an interesting debate, to say the least. But I feel that there should be multiple things taken into account.

 

Whatever we all say, he does have some originals. Nothing to say about that, he has some artistic skill. 

 

But of course, morally its not right to profit from any form of copied work. Being an aspiring inventor, I know the anguish when somebody even minorly appears to take your idea, after you put so much effort into it. Its natural to become this paranoid over your work, but you also still need to take it into perspective.

 

The definition for a new patent is something that is a creation that has a novel or new idea incorporated into it. It doesnt have to be spanking new like a hovercar or something like that. You could take the normal car, tweak it to improve it somehow, and that counts as a new idea and patent. 

 

The problem I see is that this is quite borderline. He is adapting the show's art into a different form, i.e products and comics, but he is rather blatantly taking from the show's artwork for his own use. It may be tweaking in some respects, and downright copying in others. Whatever you say, even cheats have to put effort into what they do. 

 

I also feel in this perspective that people are too unforgiving these days. Some people have to put up hard and sometimes dictator-like shells because of the prying eyes everywhere. Its too difficult. Someone notices something, and your whole world comes crumbling down. We are human, we all make mistakes, sometimes far larger ones than others. We cannot simply expect someone to be at perfect form all the time, it just doesnt work that way. We all have our flaws, and frankly, have to be overlooked once in a while. 

 

Of course, once your mistake passes the boundary between messup and loss of livelyhood, something has to be done about it. 

 

What I would say is appropriate is that he has to take down any artwork that is traced and used implicitly in the sale and profit of himself, as well as pay a fine baed off the sales he made for that. But I dont think taking him completely down is a fair consequence, and neither is the harsh comments, which seems to be everyone favourite weapon of choice these days. Even though they are words, we basically handed out BB guns to everyone on the internet, it just stings every bloody where. We should all lay off that. 

 

Also, its not drama in the fandom. Its the kind of drama everyone seems to like seeing these days. I can show you the papers in my home country, the national papers, its so full of this kind of crap every day. Just how people are these days I guess. 

[Miles 2,512]

@@Kay Dreamer,

Please know that there are plenty of things you've stated that I also either stated, or do agree with, and that I feel some of your argument against us three doesn't quite apply to me.  That being said, I disagree on the overall level.

---

 

[1.] The real issue isn't that he traced his art. I have no respect for people who trace, it's absolutely useless as a method for improvement, but it's harms no one when done for personal use. However, the line is crossed when you start making money off your traced works.

 

[2.] This guy took his traced art to conventions and sold it there. He's traced art and profited from it. That is unethical and dishonest. His ill-gained popularity also drew customers away from artists who were doing the right thing and creating original work, siphoning profits which might have otherwise gone to people with genuine talent.

 

[3.] It is true that all fan artists who sell their work exist in a legal grey area. We know that. Most companies turn a blind eye because the growth of a fandom depends on fans generating creative media, and a big fandom will spill money into official merchandise. (In short; our existence boost the value of that company's IP. That is true of fans who create art, host fan sites, make plushies, make videos, write songs and write fan fiction. By saturating popular culture with all things MLP, we help Hasbro make more money!)

 

[4.] However, we artists maintain standards among ourselves. One standard is that artwork is expected to be original, and created entirely by the artist selling it. Directly copying show assets line-for-line and selling these slides outside of that grey area we exist in. We are tolerated by companies like Hasbro because we adapt existing IP into original work with it's own artistic merit, in such a way that doesn't diminish the company's profits. Making a quick buck by tracing elements directly from screencaps has no intrinsic artistic value whatsoever, and being traced from a screenshot out of the actual show places it on morally dubious ground. The 'art' wasn't drawn by him; it was drawn by the animators on the show. Why should he profit at all?

 

[5.] Fan artists put their metaphorical blood, sweat and tears into creating original work. These things take hours. Creating art is not fast, nor is it easy. So for someone to claim cheap traces as original creations and profit from them spits in the face of legitimate artists. (For the record, I don't particularly care for art which resembles the style of the show to the point where it's basically indistinguishable. Part of the point of fan art, in my eyes, it that it's supposed to offer a unique interpretation of a character which wouldn't exist otherwise.)

---
 

[6.] While I think it's wrong that people are harassing and tormenting Drawponies to the extent that they are, what he has done is wrong and he certainly deserves to lose his fanbase and livelihood for it. It's a hard lesson for him to learn, but perhaps in the future he will come to appreciate the value of hard and honest work.

 

1. 
 

I'll be straight up about this.

It's about money.

Which is stupid.  Because, seriously... he makes a few bucks?  A few Benjamins at most? (I don't actually know what he made)...  Whilst Hasbro makes millions of dollars from their stuff.  

 

Albeit I was off by a little bit as to what he makes, he sure as hell ain't making millions.

2. I never disagreed that stealing is unethical.  It is.

3. We do help Hasbro make more money.  I agree.

4. 

 

Yeah, he shouldn't have done it.  But not because it's stealing; not because it's lazy.  He shouldn't have done it because his artwork should be original. 

 

"[...] his artwork should be original."

5. As if he didn't take time, etc., to create the unoriginal pieces, too?  Hmmm, I think he did.

Again, I'm not saying it's okay to trace, or to steal, etc... I'm just saying, work is work, and I'm saying this despite my ethical stance on it (that it is ethically wrong to trace, steal, etc.).  Unoriginal/traced artwork is unethical, but being unethical doesn't mean it didn't take time and effort to do.

---

6.

And I think that is heartless.

People make mistakes.

Don't reciprocate that and make a mistake upon them in return.

But instead, give fair punishment.

 

He does not deserve to lose his fanbase or livelihood.

~ Miles

[Kay Dreamer 884]

@@Miles,

 

By "lose his livelihood", I don't mean that Drawponies should be turfed out onto the street and made to beg for handouts. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. But he made a substantial income from this. To be frank, he doesn't deserve that. If he needs to go back to a part time job to make ends meet while he rebuilds his reputation and fractured fan base to the point where he can once again make a living off original art, I think that's fair. I'm not saying he should never agin be able to make art his career, but he'll need to work hard to regain what he's lost.

 

Yes, people deserve to be forgiven for their mistakes. But that doesn't mean one gets to dodge the consequences of one's decisions. Bad consequences are a natural result of bad choices. For Drawponies, the loss of his fan base and some income from his art is a natural (and probably unavoidable) consequence for choosing to trace his art. I certainly advocate forgiveness, but it will take a while for him to earn back the respect he's lost today.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Kay Dreamer

[Miles 2,512]

 

By "lose his livelihood", I don't mean that Drawponies should be turfed out onto the street and made to beg for handouts. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. But he made a substantial income from this. To be frank, he doesn't deserve that. If he needs to go back to a part time job to make ends meet while he rebuilds his reputation and fractured fan base to the point where he can once again make a living off original art, I think that's fair. I'm not saying he should never agin be able to make art his career, but he'll need to work hard to regain what he's lost.

 

Yes, people deserve to be forgiven for their mistakes. But that doesn't mean one gets to dodge the consequences of one's decisions. Bad consequences are a natural result of bad choices. For Drawponies, the loss of his fan base and some income from his art is a natural (and probably unavoidable) consequence for choosing to trace his art. I certainly advocate forgiveness, but it will take a while for him to earn back the respect he's lost today.

 

I agree with everything that is not underlined.

Now, I also agree with the first thing that is underlined, but the reason I underlined these things is not to say what I do or don't agree with...  The reason is:

The first thing I have underlined in your quote doesn't quite coincide with the second thing...

Because of the very reason I disagreed with you in the first place, actually.

The second underlined part implies that you advocate for others to disrespect him.  In other words, you're not just saying that he deserves the loss of fanbase, but you're also saying that people should actively stop being his fans, and should actively consider his artwork as being without merit.

I disagree with that.  

I advocate for fans to support him, and to accept his apology.  

---
 

[snip]

it just really makes me angry that people like you think that it is okay to steal someone else´s art. that is all this is about for me.

 

It makes me really angry that you are twisting my words.

I never said I think stealing is okay, damn it.

Please re-read what I said if you think I said that.  Because, I didn't, thank you.

I can love and tolerate someone who I think has done something unethical so long as the thing done did not cause anyone physical/mental/emotion harm.  Ergo, so long that it doesn't cause some kind of pain, abuse, or harm to a person.  

Stealing doesn't necessitate actual harm to a person.  Stealing doesn't mean robbing/mugging/killing/raping/etc.  

---

1 John 4:8,

"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love."

~ Miles

[Guest90210 3,568]

@@Lil'Cinnamon, @, @@Miles, 

 

His ill-gained popularity also drew customers away from artists who were doing the right thing and creating original work, siphoning profits which might have otherwise gone to people with genuine talent.

 

I wouldn't say that him selling some prints at cons is taking away from anyone else's profit's or works. Just adding to his own.

 

 

It is true that all fan artists who sell their work exist in a legal grey area. We know that. Most companies turn a blind eye because the growth of a fandom depends on fans generating creative media, and a big fandom will spill money into official merchandise. (In short; our existence boost the value of that company's IP. That is true of fans who create art, host fan sites, make plushies, make videos, write songs and write fan fiction. By saturating popular culture with all things MLP, we help Hasbro make more money!)

 

Neil's art helps Hasbro make money too. Yes, even his traced work (which, most of his art was original anyways, according to him) promotes the show. Plenty of those who create videos, art, etc. directly violate copyright law as well. Tons of brony content rips content straight off the show, with people profiting through Patreon, ad revenue, and so on. Some traced artwork isn't the first instance, and it won't be the last.

 

 

However, we artists maintain standards among ourselves. One standard is that artwork is expected to be original, and created entirely by the artist selling it. Directly copying show assets line-for-line and selling these slides outside of that grey area we exist in. We are tolerated by companies like Hasbro because we adapt existing IP into original work with it's own artistic merit, in such a way that doesn't diminish the company's profits. Making a quick buck by tracing elements directly from screencaps has no intrinsic artistic value whatsoever, and being traced from a screenshot out of the actual show places it on morally dubious ground. The 'art' wasn't drawn by him; it was drawn by the animators on the show. Why should he profit at all?

 

"We" artists? There are a countless number of artists, all with varying opinions. Art is completely subjective, so there isn't a single entity which determines "artistic value", "quality", or whatever. How is one to determine what "diminishes the company's profits" or not? And even if, I doubt some guy selling prints at pony cons is going to hurt Hasbro financially in any measurable way. Note that most of his work isn't traced, and even the traced work is surrounded by other original elements. There's a reason this is just "coming to light" now. It's because, even in traced work, he puts his own spin on it which gives it a distinct look. They aren't just traced screencaps.

 

 

Fan artists put their metaphorical blood, sweat and tears into creating original work. These things take hours. Creating art is not fast, nor is it easy. So for someone to claim cheap traces as original creations and profit from them spits in the face of legitimate artists. (For the record, I don't particularly care for art which resembles the style of the show to the point where it's basically indistinguishable. Part of the point of fan art, in my eyes, it that it's supposed to offer a unique interpretation of a character which wouldn't exist otherwise.)

 

He shouldn't have claimed that they were 100% original, I will say that. But he still is a legitimate artist. He has plenty of other work. To me, even art that resembles the show is still an art-form in itself. I think it's safe to say he has invested hours upon hours of work into his creations just as any other artist would. Did he take an easy route, and was it lazy? Sure. Should he stop tracing? Yeah, he should, and he is. Some of his work wasn't as "original" as it should have been, but I don't think that completely invalidates him as an artist.

 

While I think it's wrong that people are harassing and tormenting Drawponies to the extent that they are, what he has done is wrong and he certainly deserves to lose his fanbase and livelihood for it. It's a hard lesson for him to learn, but perhaps in the future he will come to appreciate the value of hard and honest work.

 

Why? Tons of people, including myself, enjoy his artwork. Why should he lose anyone who cared for his work because he traced some drawings from the show? Is this really that awful of a deed? Sure he made some cash off selling prints at cons (which people bought with their own money, and obviously enjoyed. I mean, as a customer, I couldn't care less if he traced from the show. As long as it looks good, I'd buy it. If he blatantly ripped off a small-time artist? Nope, I wouldn't buy it. But, since it's just show screen shots, I wouldn't care). He already said he's done selling traced prints.

 

---

 

He traced over some show screenshots to make faster work (which already resemble the show closely in the first place), not traced over some struggling artist's drawing.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Rivendare

[Aurelleah 894]

I learned how to draw by tracing, myself. Tracing, in and of itsself, is not a bad thing. I do think that if he was tracing, he shouldve made it known. But reusing something else is not bad.

Consider this. Electronic Dance Music is entirely built around two things: Samples and synthesis. Samples are sliced recordings of kicks and drums and vocals, while synthesis is either copying a sound you like or making a sound yourself. 50-80% of a track is something someone else has used before. It still takes creativity to assemble a track.

 

Tracing a drawing is the same. It's not like he was tracing twilight sparkle's full figure , using the paint can feature in paint and selling pictures, he was referencing them for use in comics (mostly) . I think people are treating this far to out-of-proportion. Yeah, its disappointing, but of all the things that could be the focus of attention, this doesnt deserve as much as it's getting

[Sceethe 704]

 

It makes me really angry that you are twisting my words.

 

I never said I think stealing is okay, damn it.

 

Please re-read what I said if you think I said that.  Because, I didn't, thank you.

 

I can love and tolerate someone who I think has done something unethical so long as the thing done did not cause anyone physical/mental/emotion harm.  Ergo, so long that it doesn't cause some kind of pain, abuse, or harm to a person.  

 

Stealing doesn't necessitate actual harm to a person.  Stealing doesn't mean robbing/mugging/killing/raping/etc.  

 

 

 

 

 

Here is the phrase that i have a problem with:

 

"Lastly, despite the moral/ethical and legal side of it... It's not like traced work just magically comes about - it's not like it didn't take effort to do.  Whether or not those works were traced, they still take skill, effort, and time to make.  So albeit that they're unoriginal, they aren't effortless. "

 

You actually think that tracing artwork requires any form of skill.It doesnt, nor does it help you learn how to draw.(unless you want to draw in a very specific style,which i find a bit strange in itself, but that is admittingly not mine to decide, but even then, you can just look at pictures of that style and try to emulate its proportions.)

 

You clearly state that you are okay with him copying artwork made by other people.

 

Just please, take what i have written into consideration and i hope you can see what i mean.

I hope i haven´t pissed you off too much already.That wasnt my intention if i had.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Sceethe

[Kay Dreamer 884]

@@Miles,

I'm not 'advocating' people do anything. But a lot of people will lose resect for him over this, and I think that's fair enough. It's a natural consequence in response to what he did. He'll need to earn that respect back through legitimate hard work. I will say this in his defence; the apology he wrote is mature, contrite and it doesn't make excuses. That impressed me a fair bit, and if he proves his words are sincere, he'll earn back that lost respect.

 

@, 

Selling a large volume of prints at cons does actually have an effect on the financial success of the other artists selling there. If everyone's giving their money to one guy, there's less to go around. If that one guy is getting all the attention because his artwork is phenomenal, that's fair enough. He obviously worked hard for it, and deserves the reward. But when that one guy is selling quickly traced work, that's just plain wrong.

 

I know he is capable of drawing his own original work. I don't think his original art is particularly good, but it's certainly preferable to tracing.

 

It's actually a fact that Hasbro (or at least their lawyers) feel more threatened by traces and show-accurate art than they do by the sale of more original art styles. The reason some of the biggest fan projects such as Button Mash and Fighting Is Magic were CMD'd was because Hasbro felt these projects were too accurate, too polished, and could therefore be mistaken for legitimate MLP spinoffs endorsed by Hasbro when they weren't. This threatened the integrity of their brand. By choosing to value show-accuracy over everything else, especially to the point of blatantly tracing work, artists like Drawponies actually threaten to draw the ire of Hasbro's lawyers and could, by association, threaten other fan artists with the same.

 

Anyway, disregarding all the legal voodoo, he did was wrong. Whether you think it's being blown out of proportion or not, profiting off traced artwork is unethical and the repercussions he is facing now are a natural consequence of that dishonesty and laziness. Hell, he admits that in the apology he wrote on DA. That apology is a good step in the right direction toward fixing this, and I'll say it again; I was actually impressed with that.

 

@@Aurelleah,

Problem is, he basically was tracing a drawing line-by-line then filling it with colour. He'd add some sparkle to it, sure, but artistic terms it is very much considered theft.

 

To further your analogy, drawing is assembling a variety of parts - colour, form, shade, line, etc - and assembling them on a canvas. 100% of what you use has been used before, but the art is in how you put them together. Tracing is like taking a popular song, changing some of the lyrics around and trying to claim you wrote it.

[Naiya The Brony 483]

ain't this like vectoring and using bases? I mean most of the vector arts in the fandom came from bases, Base that came from the show.. itself and other pepole and it's alright for us to use it. Vector artist and digital artist also use the bases as a reference or as a tracing guide. Some vector artist also gain profit from it as well.. so i  really don't think that this issue is that big of a deal really. The only disappointing thing for my part is that he lied and gained profit from that lie.. which is pretty Unfair.. :/

Me, I learned to draw by tracing.. it's an amazing guide for self practice So tracing isn't THAT bad

Edited April 21, 2015 by Takanashi Rikka

[JonasDarkmane 19,785]

I have never heard about this guy nor have I ever seen any of his art, however, if he was plagiarizing, then he deserves to get punished in some way, be it lawsuit, boycotting his artwork or something else. People should not get away with things like this without some form of punishment (however, I do not wish death or anything else like that (like being homeless) upon him, I am ashamed that people would even suggest that. I understand the anger though). 

 

That is all I am going to say about the matter.... (for now, perhaps). 

[Koukatsu 5,899]

I'm not upset about this regarding his comics. I don't care how the art in an amusing comic is done, if it's still good.

What DOES bother me, is the Patreon, and the posters and whatever. Shouldn't make money off of that sort of thing. :\

Mostly, I am disappoint. :c

[Moved to Elsewhere 11,331]

Hey guys, I bet if I start tracing ponies with zero effort involved, I could become horse famous too!

 

In all seriousness, yeah it shows some laziness by the artist.

[Mantis01 19]

I heard about this on facebook. He actually think that he could get away knowing that he'll get caught. It shows how some people want to us the easy way of drawing art rather than putting effort in it.

[Argumedies 1,748]

Ya i read about this on EQD and while i do understand its a kin to lip singing at a concert, bottom line is that this all isnt exactly going to be sitting in a museum or art gallery somday.

 

And even if the artest is creating a 100% hand drawn peice, i want too see all the offical licences that the rest of the pony art community uses in they're copying of Fousts original concepts in the first place.

 

So unless your Hasbro, with an offical contract and copyrights, every last peice of fan created BS is plagiarized.

 

I couldnt care less if it was traced, id buy them and just not give a rats plot what anyone thought about it.

 

I swear the fandom loves to raise a stink about the littlest of things while still wallowing around in its own messes

[Aleh 481]

Ya i read about this on EQD and while i do understand its a kin to lip singing at a concert, bottom line is that this all isnt exactly going to be sitting in a museum or art gallery somday.

 

And even if the artest is creating a 100% hand drawn peice, i want too see all the offical licences that the rest of the pony art community uses in they're copying of Fousts original concepts in the first place.

 

So unless your Hasbro, with an offical contract and copyrights, every last peice of fan created BS is plagiarized.

 

I couldnt care less if it was traced, id buy them and just not give a rats plot what anyone thought about it.

 

I swear the fandom loves to raise a stink about the littlest of things while still wallowing around in its own messes

^ Honestly. Considering how psychotic some people have been in this thread this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but just playing devils advocate here, since people seem perfectly fine with show style ponies.

 

What is the difference between an exact copy of the shows art style done by eye, and an exact copy of the shows art style done by tracing? The extra effort? 

Aren't both technically plagiarizing the art style worked on so hard by the animators? 

 

[Miles 2,512]

You actually think that tracing artwork requires any form of skill.It doesnt, nor does it help you learn how to draw.(unless you want to draw in a very specific style,which i find a bit strange in itself, but that is admittingly not mine to decide, but even then, you can just look at pictures of that style and try to emulate its proportions.)

 

You clearly state that you are okay with him copying artwork made by other people.

 

Just please, take what i have written into consideration and i hope you can see what i mean.

I hope i haven´t pissed you off too much already.That wasnt my intention if i had.

 

Excuse me, but by definition, there can be skill in anything that is an action.

 

 

 

 

Anything that is an action can be described as having been done with any subjectively regarded amount of skill.  Was the action executed poorly?  No skill or low skill.  Was the action executed adequately?  Medium or moderate skill.  Was the action executed extraordinarily?  High or mastered skill.  

 

Is drawing an action?  Yes.  Is tracing an action?  Yes.  Ergo, you are misinformed, Sceethe.  Semantics is my guilty pleasure.

 

---

 

I'm not 'advocating' people do anything. But a lot of people will lose resect for him over this, and I think that's fair enough. It's a natural consequence in response to what he did. He'll need to earn that respect back through legitimate hard work. I will say this in his defence; the apology he wrote is mature, contrite and it doesn't make excuses. That impressed me a fair bit, and if he proves his words are sincere, he'll earn back that lost respect.

 

Ah, I see.  I misinterpreted your words for being an active suggestion [of what to do], rather than a passive explanation [of what may occur].  In that sense, I agree that some people will effectively remove themselves from his fanbase.

 

I also agree that in good time he will earn back respect.

 

---

Side note:

 

I would like to contend against anyone who states that engaging in any activity is lazy or effortless.  That is not true.  

 

Definition of lazy: Unwilling to work or use energy.

• Characterized by lack of effort or activity.
• Showing a lack of effort or care.

synonyms: idle, indolent, slothful, work-shy, shiftless, inactive, underactive, sluggish, lethargic; 

remiss, negligent, slack, lax, lackadaisical

 

 

(Source)

 

 

Is it possible to be idle (to be inactive), whilst engaging in an activity?  No, it's not.  

 

Therefore, the act of tracing is not lazy or effortless.  

 

The act of tracing is unethical, however.

 

 

 

~ Miles

[Luna the Great of all the Russias 2,978]

^ Honestly. Considering how psychotic some people have been in this thread this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but just playing devils advocate here, since people seem perfectly fine with show style ponies.

 

What is the difference between an exact copy of the shows art style done by eye, and an exact copy of the shows art style done by tracing? The extra effort? 

Aren't both technically plagiarizing the art style worked on so hard by the animators? 

The person who learned to imitate the show's style by eye would have learned the subtle details of what makes that particular style that particular style whereas the tracer would not need to make any such effort. It also take time to do but the amount of skill required to trace is none or a very small fraction of that of drawing on your own. So I see Veggie55's work to be a more legitimate than some of drawponies's (unless he has also claimed traced works as his own though I will believe that he hasn't). I suppose whether that matters to you depends on who you ask.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Tsaritsa Luna