What is the Social status of Cows and Sheep in Equestria?

[Buck Testa 5,503]

update: "its just a kid show" doesn't add anything to the conversation, if that is the only thing you are bringing to the table please refrain from posting. 

 

Lets address a rather large Elephant in the room

 

Why do the ponies own sentient creatures? No seriously, they don't really make any bones about it, Sheep and cows are owned and corralled by ponies in Equestria even though they are sentient creatures. From what has been seen, it looks like the Cows are kept in a huge barn for part of the day to be milked and then they go out to eat, and Sheep are kept around for their wool, especially during war time gauging from Sombra Timeline of the S5 finale. However this doesn't look like a business agreement, They are corralled, kept in barns and pens, guarded and made to march in lines, and for the most part aren't really encouraged to roam free. Sure you can see the occasional stray Cow, but they hardly seem like they are on Equal footing with the Ponies. 

 

I mean look at them, they are being marched off of ships with Escorts so they don't run away 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVqJl1ewFlg

^As These lovely people put it "They Milk the Sentient people cows"

 

Not only does Twilight Milk the cows in that scene in boast busters, she does it in the middle of the night without the Cows Consent and gets Absolutely NO repercussions for it. And why would she since they are, you know, not equal to ponies in equestria. 

 

And before this comes up: The Cows and Sheep being "okay" with this arrangement doesn't make it "okay." This is basically slavery and they have just been raised to believe that this is perfectly fine and normal. I mean what else could they be doing with these creatures. Applejack has brought Marshmallows on camping trips. Marshmallows are made of Gelatin, which is an animal Bi-product of Pigs....and Cows. Sure you can make artificial gelatin, but the fact is they use Eggs and Milk and other products from animals, and Braeburn looks like he might be wearing leather...

 

 

^ did you see that? Aj didn't even give the Sheep the time of day. She just kicked the door closed without even so much as glancing in their direction. In fact she didn't even address them as sheep, she called them "critters" 

 

This isn't the first instances of "Pony master race" vibes this show has had, but its particularly uncomfortable when it comes to Sheep and Cows. So what are your thoughts on this? 

Edited February 18, 2016 by Buck Testa

[Aurora Storm 83]

Ugh. I know I hate this.  Pinkie's "You Gotta Care" song mentions they're vegetarian but they're clearly not vegan.  If they just never made them talk, none of this would be an issue (except for the viewers who do not eat meat/consumer animal products for moral reasons anyway.) We'd assume ponies were the Equestrian equivalent to humans and had their own farm animals of lesser intelligence.

[silvadel 1,393]

I think the war effort really lowered the quality of life for the sheep and cows.  In normal times they can mostly do what they want even if their wants are few, but in wartime their status really marginalizes their lifestyle.

[PiratePony 8,473]

Yeah, the one mistake in the show is having the livestock talk. Because, they're obviously using them for milk, eggs, clothes etc and are not sentient. I view the ponies on par with humans, but not the rest. 

[Vixor 80]

Ah, this topic again, how unfortunate. I'm sure some people enjoy analyzing the show for minor details, if just for fun, but when it gets to the point that topics like this are popping up, you know it's been taken much, much too far. This is difficult to word, but if you went around scrutinizing cartoons targeted primarily at children (or just cartoons in general) for every tiny little detail in order to find stuff you could try and interpret as meaning something bad/grimdark, you'd probably dig up all sorts of nonsense, as well as big inconsistencies of all forms, but that doesn't mean for a second that it's meant to be seen as a legitimate part of the show, setting and/or narrative, nor did the writers intend for it to mean anything. You should ultimately just ignore those things and brush them off as nothing, because nothing is all they are.

 

It's obviously not meant to be taken seriously/mean anything, and it would be an absolutely massive mistake to try and take it seriously or suggest it means anything. There's not a chance in hell that slavery or anything of that nature would be accepted in Equestria, to suggest otherwise would be absolutely, positively, tremendously, well, retarded. Either way, I simply don't think the writers put any thought into it, it's just not the sort of thing they'd worry about, because despite what some people try to claim, this IS a children's cartoon, even if it's a high quality one, and those sorts of things aren't always taken into the least bit of consideration. We aren't watching an anime where every little detail that people might scrape out of the background has some meaning or significance, we're watching a cartoon where the focus of the writers efforts are mostly placed on it's highly developed characters and the more major elements of the plot/story.

 

Equestria is a benevolent place, for various reasons, and the show constantly hammers that home, among other things, so I won't take anyone seriously who is so strongly deluded that they think the ponies would endorse slavery or anything similar. It would be horribly grimdark and would completely destroy the messages of the show and the setting it's takes place in. There's simply no way they would enslave or otherwise abuse anyone. The friendship and love and other nice things they value wouldn't allow for it, the alicorns wouldn't allow for it, and the citizenry wouldn't allow for it. This isn't up for debate, to put it bluntly. Slavery is the sort of thing you might see in Fallout;Equestria or some other terribly grimdark fanfiction (and even there, you'd be hard pressed to claim it has some sort of widespread support beyond evil factions that may practice it), but it's never the sort of thing you'd see in the canon of MLP itself.

 

I could rant on and on about this, I bet, and there's more things that could be said, but you get the idea hopefully. Slavery is not an idea that would ever belong in MLP, end of story. 

Edited February 16, 2016 by Vixor

[silvadel 1,393]

In our world, sapience is pretty much black and white.  There is no other animal species that is semi-sapient.  In My little pony, it is more of a continuum.  If say monkeys were 10 times smarter than they are, it would have made a significant difference in how we advanced.

Edited February 16, 2016 by silvadel

[SteveMorison 404]

Eh, they use dragons as slaves, why not cows/sheep.

[Fluttershutter 2,147]

Well we've only seen a sheep say a few words from what I remember. Maybe they're not really sapient, just imitative like parrots.

 

And we don't know that the cows are really property. Clearly they give the ponies milk but they seem to walk around freely. Unless they stampede, which is obviously dangerous.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Fluttershutter

[El Duderino 878]

Maybe they have an agreement? Like they give their milk/wool in exchange for food and shelter?

 

I don't know. There is no good answer. They never should have made them talk.

[Fluttershutter 2,147]

I don't know. There is no good answer. They never should have made them talk.

Why not? It stimulates interesting conversation and gives them a problem to solve.

[Buck Testa 5,503]

  If they just never made them talk, none of this would be an issue (except for the viewers who do not eat meat/consumer animal products for moral reasons anyway.) We'd assume ponies were the Equestrian equivalent to humans and had their own farm animals of lesser intelligence.

 

 

 

Yeah, the one mistake in the show is having the livestock talk. Because, they're obviously using them for milk, eggs, clothes etc and are not sentient. I view the ponies on par with humans, but not the rest. 

 

 

 

Maybe they have an agreement? Like they give their milk/wool in exchange for food and shelter?   I don't know. There is no good answer. They never should have made them talk.

 

 

It certainly would of made this less messy if they didn't talk. The fact is that they do though, and all the implications that come with it are now present in the series. Now their government structure is a lot different than ours, they have an Autocracy and a clear delineation of nobility. Perhaps there is some kind of race based hierarchy. Its not really a pleasant thought but that is what is there at the moment. 

 

 

Eh, they use dragons as slaves, why not cows/sheep.

That is an interesting point. Some do consider spike a slave

 

Ah, this topic again, how unfortunate. I'm sure some people enjoy analyzing the show for minor details, if just for fun, but when it gets to the point that topics like this are popping up, you know it's been taken much, much too far. This is difficult to word, but if you went around scrutinizing cartoons targeted primarily at children (or just cartoons in general) for every tiny little detail in order to find stuff you could try and interpret as meaning something bad/grimdark, you'd probably dig up all sorts of nonsense, as well as big inconsistencies of all forms, but that doesn't mean for a second that it's meant to be seen as a legitimate part of the show, setting and/or narrative, nor did the writers intend for it to mean anything. You should ultimately just ignore those things and brush them off as nothing, because nothing is all they are.

 

It's obviously not meant to be taken seriously/mean anything, and it would be an absolutely massive mistake to try and take it seriously or suggest it means anything. There's not a chance in hell that slavery or anything of that nature would be accepted in Equestria, to suggest otherwise would be absolutely, positively, tremendously, well, retarded. Either way, I simply don't think the writers put any thought into it, it's just not the sort of thing they'd worry about, because despite what some people try to claim, this IS a children's cartoon, even if it's a high quality one, and those sorts of things aren't always taken into the least bit of consideration. We aren't watching an anime where every little detail that people might scrape out of the background has some meaning or significance, we're watching a cartoon where the focus of the writers efforts are mostly placed on it's highly developed characters and the more major elements of the plot/story.

 

Equestria is a benevolent place, for various reasons, and the show constantly hammers that home, among other things, so I won't take anyone seriously who is so strongly deluded that they think the ponies would endorse slavery or anything similar. It would be horribly grimdark and would completely destroy the messages of the show and the setting it's takes place in. There's simply no way they would enslave or otherwise abuse anyone. The friendship and love and other nice things they value wouldn't allow for it, the alicorns wouldn't allow for it, and the citizenry wouldn't allow for it. This isn't up for debate, to put it bluntly. Slavery is the sort of thing you might see in Fallout;Equestria or some other terribly grimdark fanfiction (and even there, you'd be hard pressed to claim it has some sort of widespread support beyond evil factions that may practice it), but it's never the sort of thing you'd see in the canon of MLP itself.

 

I could rant on and on about this, I bet, and there's more things that could be said, but you get the idea hopefully. Slavery is not an idea that would ever belong in MLP, end of story. 

 

 Are you sure they wouldn't try to work these kinds of themes into the show? We are talking about the show that had a pretty accurate representation of a Cult in the season 5 premier after all. Just because you don't find topics like this pleasant doesn't mean they should be written off as, in your words "retarded"

 

Any form of art is absolutely open to interpretation, and should be explored to the fullest. We've been doing it for ages, there are entire college courses based on worming out the potential symbolism and social implications of works of fiction. Authorial intent doesn't always need to play into these pursuits either. In fact, I subscribe to the idea the Author/artist intent does not matter and that its the many various interpretations of the work that is really important. If people were stuck with just the authors original intent we never would of got Generation 4 to begin with.

 

Yes, we would never of got this show if people were only concerned with the original intent, because Friendship is Magic is a new interpretation OF the original concept that ended up getting more traction than the original. These kinds of discussions are vital to the artform BECAUSE its what perpetuates it.

 

So yes, I enjoy digging into every nook and cranny of a series and try to see how I can spin it, so we can see what kind of discussions and interpretations we can get out of it. Turning a series on its head and putting the pieces together in new and thought provoking ways should not be waved off, it should be encouraged and embraced.  

Edited February 17, 2016 by Buck Testa

[Merion 783]

Okay, cows and sheep bother me a bit, but for some reason I'm far more concerned about the pigs.

 

 Applejack has brought Marshmallows on camping trips. Marshmallows are made of Gelatin, which is an animal Bi-product of Pigs....and Cows.

 

And I'm glad you brought that up!

 

What's the point of keeping pigs if pretty much everyone around you is vegetarian? Technically, you could milk them, but that's too much of a bother (especially if there are cows at hand). 

 

So I'm thinking... Maybe ponies DO need meat after all? I mean, ponies keep cats and dogs (and BEARS) as pets and they couldn't possibly feed them oats and carrots, right? PLUS, there are Griffins in Equestria... And even though we've seen Griffins enjoy scones, I highly doubt cookies are their primary source of nutrition. They are supposed to be a lion/eagle mix and that just sounds SUPER CARNIVORE to me. :'D

Okay, sorry. I'm wandering off topic. My point is there might be actual slaughterhouses in Equestria. And if there are, then the social status of cows and sheep might be even lower than it seems.

 

Dunno guys, this kinda creeps me out.
 

[Kyoshi Frost Wolf 40,424]

Quite the conundrum this topic is. I like to view the pigs, cows and sheep as 'lesser capables'. I am gonna say that these creatures just cannot do a whole lot in the grand scheme of things. Lack of magic, and most likely anatomy inferiority definitely would make what you can do far more limited. So I think what they do here is probably the best scenario for them. They can provide many different things and have shelter and whatnot in return. Judging by the way they look, they all don't seem too unhappy about it. 

[Buck Testa 5,503]

And I'm glad you brought that up!   What's the point of keeping pigs if pretty much everyone around you is vegetarian? Technically, you could milk them, but that's too much of a bother (especially if there are cows at hand).   

 

So I'm thinking... Maybe ponies DO need meat after all? I mean, ponies keep cats and dogs (and BEARS) as pets and they couldn't possibly feed them oats and carrots, right? PLUS, there are Griffins in Equestria... And even though we've seen Griffins enjoy scones, I highly doubt cookies are their primary source of nutrition. They are supposed to be a lion/eagle mix and that just sounds SUPER CARNIVORE to me. :'D

 

Okay, sorry. I'm wandering off topic. My point is there might be actual slaughterhouses in Equestria. And if there are, then the social status of cows and sheep might be even lower than it seems.  

 

I would like to point out that the ponies appear to be Omnivores. They can even eat rocks which is confirmed by the Pie Family's "rock farm" 

 

They appear to favor a vegetarian diet, but like you say, why would they have pigs if they didn't use them. They also have Glue, which is another bi-product that can be made out of horse hooves. Someone on another site mentioned that Horses/Ponies have to trim their hooves regularly, and those trimmings can be boiled to make gelatin for the Marshmallows as well. I don't know if i'd be comfortable eating something that was basically made from my own fingernails, but it works in theory :/

 

Considering the way they are treated, it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that they have slaughterhouses, but it would probably be for export to other races, because its not like Applejack has a slab of steak every night. We DO know that they don't have a problem with killing animals though. 

 

 

Quite the conundrum this topic is. I like to view the pigs, cows and sheep as 'lesser capables'. I am gonna say that these creatures just cannot do a whole lot in the grand scheme of things. Lack of magic, and most likely anatomy inferiority definitely would make what you can do far more limited. So I think what they do here is probably the best scenario for them. They can provide many different things and have shelter and whatnot in return. Judging by the way they look, they all don't seem too unhappy about it. 

 

 There is certainly a case for that. Maybe their hooves don't work like Pony hooves do and they can't build or farm anything. The question is though, is it an even trade? The Cows look like they all stay in one house like the way we keep cows, and as I pointed out they can be unceremoniously milked at any time with no repercussions, and sheep are kept fenced in without any other kind of shelter to speak of and are referred to as Critters by at least Applejack. The ponies are frightfully strong and capable, a Pegasus can bench about a 1000 pounds with just their wings, and we've seen what Earth ponies can do to Boulders, so these cows and sheep would be at a distinct disadvantage even with a stampede. Also given that we know that they at least have no problem with killing Fish or letting squirrels die

 

then we can't say there isn't a reason to suspect that the same extends to others that are considered lesser to them. 

Edited February 17, 2016 by Buck Testa

[----- 476]

I think they are slaves/workers for the ponies. '-'

[Buck Testa 5,503]

I think they are slaves/workers for the ponies. '-'

They might be, but we really haven't seen Sheep and Cattle "working' have we?

They use them the same way we use them, as livestock 

 

The ponies keep them because they take products from them, like milk, wool, and likely biproducts like Gelatin. 

This is almost worse, because they aren't even considered on their level, they are products to the ponies. Critters. something to be rounded up and sold or used to make products to sell. Even the element of Kindness doesn't seem to have qualms about using some animals to feed others, and they at least eat animal bi-products. 

 

Its some wonderful fanfic fodder if nothing else 

Edited February 17, 2016 by Buck Testa

[Vixor 80]

It certainly would of made this less messy if they didn't talk. The fact is that they do though, and all the implications that come with it are now present in the series. Now their government structure is a lot different than ours, they have an Autocracy and a clear delineation of nobility. Perhaps there is some kind of race based hierarchy. Its not really a pleasant thought but that is what is there at the moment. 

 

 

That is an interesting point. Some do consider spike a slave

 

 

 Are you sure they wouldn't try to work these kinds of themes into the show? We are talking about the show that had a pretty accurate representation of a Cult in the season 5 premier after all. Just because you don't find topics like this pleasant doesn't mean they should be written off as, in your words "retarded"

 

Any form of art is absolutely open to interpretation, and should be explored to the fullest. We've been doing it for ages, there are entire college courses based on worming out the potential symbolism and social implications of works of fiction. Authorial intent doesn't always need to play into these pursuits either. In fact, I subscribe to the idea the Author/artist intent does not matter and that its the many various interpretations of the work that is really important. If people were stuck with just the authors original intent we never would of got Generation 4 to begin with.

 

Yes, we would never of got this show if people were only concerned with the original intent, because Friendship is Magic is a new interpretation OF the original concept that ended up getting more traction than the original. These kinds of discussions are vital to the artform BECAUSE its what perpetuates it.

 

So yes, I enjoy digging into every nook and cranny of a series and try to see how I can spin it, so we can see what kind of discussions and interpretations we can get out of it. Turning a series on its head and putting the pieces together in new and thought provoking ways should not be waved off, it should be encouraged and embraced.  

 

I can only sound more blunt from here, but yes, I'm 100% sure they wouldn't work such elements into the show. I find anyone who thinks otherwise to be quite delusional, to be honest, or at least someone who didn't put any thought into what they're actually saying and what it implies. MLP's setting, or at least Equestria, is a pretty nice place, and there's not a chance the ponies would tolerate slavery anymore than they'd tolerate rape or murder, which is to say zero tolerance. And you can dig into the show as much as you want, if that's what you enjoy, but that doesn't give any credence to ideas like this, as it's absolutely insane. Slavery goes against everything the show and Equestria stands for, it would trample on all the nice messages and all the friendship, and so on. You might as well throw the whole canon out the window into the garbage before you consider an idea as reprehensible as slavery, because it has no place in MLP, end of story.

 

And Spike is most definitely no slave. He's more like adopted/a little brother to Twilight, and he's not forced to do anything, he's Twilight's assistant voluntarily. I suspect most of the people who peddle the "Spike is a slave!" nonsense are the people who dislike him for whatever reason to begin with. Sure, the writers don't always handle his scenes as well as they could, but it's pretty clear that he's like a little brother to Twilight and he's surrounded by friends.

 

Anyway, I've already made things clear that this stuff should not be even considered up for debate. If you want to "dig into every nook and cranny" of a series to analyze details and perhaps dig up whatever nonsense the imagination can hope to conjure up, then suit yourself, as I'm sure it's an interesting pastime for some if nothing else, but don't come marching around expecting many to take you serious on it, because it just doesn't fit the puzzle that is MLP in any stretch of the imagination. 

 

I'm sorry if I come off as rude in this post, but slavery is evil, it doesn't belong in any logical or reasonable interpretation of Equestria, and I'm tired of seeing people try to push the idea because they pick out tiny details in the background that may as well be a bad usage of plot convenience in a typical cartoon fashion rather than anything meant to be taken seriously or literally. And I find that authorial intent and other such things matter a lot when we're talking about a show that sends good messages and hammers home the point that Equestria is a nice place full of friendship and other good things constantly. Running amok with nonsensical, highly grimdark theories is not reasonable in any sense of the word. I'm sure if you analyzed every nook and cranny Dora the Explorer or Care Bears hard enough, you'd find things you could attempt to interpret as grimdark, but that doesn't make it so.

 

Either way, I cannot stress enough just how very strongly I disagree with you on this. Slavery is an idea that would quite literally destroy MLP, it would heavily contradict anything and everything in the setting, the show, the characters (none of them would ever tolerate slavery other than some of the big villains, and the alicorns certainly wouldn't allow for it), the lessons the show provides, and so on. It most definitely has no place in the canon.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Vixor

[Buck Testa 5,503]

I can only sound more blunt from here, but yes, I'm 100% sure they wouldn't work such elements into the show. I find anyone who thinks otherwise to be quite delusional, to be honest, or at least someone who didn't put much thought into what they're actually saying and what it implies. MLP's setting, or at least Equestria, is a pretty nice place, and there's not a chance the ponies would tolerate slavery anymore than they'd tolerate rape or murder, which is to say zero tolerance. And you can dig into the show as much as you want, if that's what you enjoy, but that doesn't give any credence to ideas like this, as it's absolutely insane. Slavery goes against everything the show and Equestria stands for, it would trample on all the nice messages and all the friendship, and so on. You might as well throw the whole canon out the window into the garbage before you consider an idea as reprehensible slavery, because it has no place in MLP, end of story.

 

And Spike is most definitely no slave. He's more like adopted/a little brother to Twilight, and he's not forced to do anything, he's Twilight's assistant voluntarily. I suspect most of the people who peddle the "Spike is a slave!" nonsense are the people who dislike him for whatever reason to begin with. Sure, the writers don't always handle his scenes as well as they could, but it's pretty clear that he's like a little brother to Twilight and he's surrounded by friends.

 

Anyway, I've already made things clear that this stuff should not be even considered up for debate. If you want to "dig into every nook and cranny" of a series to dig up whatever nonsense your imagination can conjure up, then suit yourself, but don't come marching around expecting many to take you serious on it, because it just doesn't fit the puzzle that is MLP in any stretch of the imagination. 

 

I'm sorry if I come off as rude in this post, but slavery is evil, it doesn't belong in any logical or reasonable interpretation of Equestria, and I'm tired of seeing people try to push the idea because they pick out tiny details in the background that may as well be a bad usage of plot convenience in a typical cartoon fashion rather than anything meant to be taken seriously or literally. And I find that authorial intent and other such things matter a lot when we're talking about a show that sends good messages and hammers home the point that Equestria is a nice place full of friendship and other good things constantly. Running amok with nonsensical, highly grimdark theories is not reasonable in any sense of the word. I'm sure if you analyzed every nook and cranny Dora the Explorer or Care Bears hard enough, you'd find things you could attempt to interpret as grimdark, but that doesn't make it so.

 

Either way, I cannot stress enough just how very strongly I disagree with you on this. Slavery is an idea that would quite literally destroy MLP, it would heavily contradict anything and everything in the setting, the show, the characters (none of them would ever tolerate slavery other than some of the big villains, and the alicorns certainly wouldn't allow for it), the lessons the show provides, and so on.

And that's all well and good, I can certainly get behind the "slavery is evil" mantra, however I'm noticing a distinct lack of you citing evidence against what I'm saying. Sure you are saying "the show wouldn't do that" but in order for such a statement to hold water you need to site scenes to back that up. 

 

I more than welcome being proved wrong here, by all means pull everything you can from the show that refutes what I've been saying and bring it to the table. If you can do that I'll absolutely check it out and see if I have counterpoints. That is what a debate is after all. 

 

I'm bringing clips, I'm siting scenes, I'm showing pictures, the pieces are there. Call it delusional, call it dumb, but this is what interpretation of art is all about. I'm not even saying that I'm right per say, I'm saying that the conclusion can definitely be drawn given what they've established. 

Edited February 17, 2016 by Buck Testa

[cider float 2,536]

Pinkie Pie eats hot dogs and quiche. Applejack eats ham sandwiches. Fluttershy catches fish to feed other animals. Nuff said.

 

I guess those other animals are just not smart enough to deal with their captivity.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=5QnEZDN8hgs

 

I'm pretty sure the writers eat meat and don't care about the context of what they write in terms of moral veganism. Also Pinkie Pie said ponies are vegetarians and vegetarians are actually very vague on what they consider part of a vegetarian diet. Vegetarians are typically what they are due to health reasons not morals so they do eat meat from time to time. Lot of vegetarians actually consider fish part of a vegetarian diet.

 

Vegans are more likely hung up on morals than vegetarians and do not eat or use any animal byproduct.

Edited February 17, 2016 by cider float

[Vixor 80]

And that's all well and good, I can certainly get behind the "slavery is evil" mantra, however I'm noticing a distinct lack of you citing evidence against what I'm saying. Sure you are saying "the show wouldn't do that" but in order for such a statement to hold water you need to site scenes to back that up. 

 

I more than welcome being proved wrong here, by all means pull everything you can from the show that refutes what I've been saying bring it to the table. If you can do that I'll absolutely check it out and see if I have counterpoints. That is what a debate is after all. 

 

I'm bringing clips, I'm siting scenes, I'm showing pictures, the pieces are there. Call it delusional, call it dumb, but this is what interpretation of art is all about. I'm not even saying that I'm right per say, I'm saying that the conclusion can definitely be drawn given what they've established. 

 

I think many of my points just flew over your head. If you can call liberally interpreted, minor details in the background that were likely thrown in there without a second thought 'evidence' of such an extreme idea, which is  pretty impossible when said idea would contradict everything else in the show, including details that are actually relevant. Darker ideas can fit into MLP, but they won't be the product of the ponies. Maybe the big bad villains like Sombra or Tirek, for example, could allow for slavery, but the ponies would never allow for it, and they rightfully stopped those villains from practicing it.

 

Finding a scene where the characters/show specifically takes the time to come out against slavery is a tall order, it's not the sort of thing the show would go into (in what context would such a scene happen?), so I'm forced to use generalized evidence rather than giving you a clip of a character saying "Slavery is wrong". However, considering the ponies values, the messages of the show, and so on, I don't see why it needs to be said explicitly. It should be completely obvious. Any message about fairness, freedom, treating others with respect, and a myriad of others could be enough to counter slavery. MLP is a show depicting a society with good values, and while not every pony is totally perfect, they are certainly pretty darn good overall, especially the main characters and the royalty, so how could you possibly reconcile the whole of the show with slavery? Again, it just doesn't fit. Sensitive analogy coming up, but a literalist interpretation of every little detail in the cartoon is as destructive and dangerous as a literalist interpretation of the bible or quran, except for MLP.

 

Given the huge and far reaching contradictions between the idea of slavery and the rest of the things in MLP, I find that the rest of the show clearly crushes the minor details that are ultimately meant to be nothing other than a thoughtless plot convenience at best. If you think slavery exists in Equestria, then by extension you think the ponies are evil, and that doesn't exactly fit in any stretch of the imagination. The bottom line is that the ponies are generally good, and if nothing else, do you really believe for a second the alicorns, like Celestia and Luna, would allow such evil and suffering inside Equestria?

 

Either way, it should be a given that Equestria would be against slavery. A lesson specifically against slavery is not exactly something the show could or would go into, but it should be obvious, that given everything else positive in the show and setting, that one of the most evil ideas, aka slavery, would not fit in. If you agree with me that slavery is evil, and you are trying to push the idea that slavery exists in the show, then by extension you are pushing the idea that the ponies are evil. That would make everything in the show a huge, infuriatingly insulting LIE. Looking at that from a meta perspective alone should be enough to disprove it, do you really think the show and all it's good messages are just some big lie, and you're basing all of that on something the writers almost surely didn't put an ounce of thought into? I can't give you a scene where the show specifically condones slavery, but taking into consideration everything else in the show, I can't fathom how you could possibly even begin to justify thinking it would be tolerated, and on the basis of a minor background detail no less.

 

I won't ever accept the idea of slavery in MLP, and I see no reason why anyone else would. It doesn't make a bit of sense, contradicts everything else in such a catastrophic way that it isn't even funny, among other things I've tried to point out. If you can't see that, then I don't think we will ever see eye-to-eye, and perhaps this conversation should simply be ended.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Vixor

[Buck Testa 5,503]

I think many of my points just flew over your head. If you can call liberally interpreted, minor details in the background that were likely thrown in there without a second thought 'evidence' of such an extreme idea, which is  pretty impossible when said idea would contradict everything else in the show, including details that are actually relevant. Darker ideas can fit into MLP, but they won't be the product of the ponies. Maybe the big bad villains like Sombra or Tirek, for example, could allow for slavery, but the ponies would never allow for it, and they rightfully stopped those villains from practicing it.

 

Finding a scene where the characters/show specifically takes the time to come out against slavery is a tall order, it's not the sort of thing the show would go into (in what context would such a scene happen?), so I'm forced to use generalized evidence rather than giving you a clip of a character saying "Slavery is wrong". However, considering the ponies values, the messages of the show, and so on, I don't see why it needs to be said explicitly. It should be completely obvious. Any message about fairness, freedom, treating others with respect, and a myriad of others could be enough to counter slavery. MLP is a show depicting a society with good values, and while not every pony is totally perfect, they are certainly nice on average, so how could you possibly reconcile the whole of the show with slavery? Again, it just doesn't fit. Sensitive analogy coming up, but a literalist interpretation of every little detail in the cartoon is as destructive and dangerous as a literalist interpretation of the bible or quran, except for MLP.

 

Given the huge and far reaching contradictions between the idea of slavery and the rest of the things in MLP, I find that the rest of the show clearly crushes the minor details that are ultimately meant to be nothing other than a thoughtless plot convenience at best. If you think slavery exists in Equestria, then by extension you think the ponies are evil, and that doesn't exactly fit in any stretch of the imagination. The bottom line is that the ponies are generally good, and if nothing else, do you really believe for a second the alicorns, like Celestia and Luna, would allow such evil and suffering inside Equestria?

 

Either way, it should be a given that Equestria would be against slavery. A lesson specifically against slavery is not exactly something the show could or would go into, but it should be obvious, that given everything else positive in the show and setting, that one of the most evil ideas, aka slavery, would not fit in. If you agree with me that slavery is evil, and you are trying to push the idea that slavery exists in the show, then by extension you are pushing the idea that the ponies are evil. That would make everything in the show a huge, infuriatingly insulting LIE. Looking at that from a meta perspective alone should be enough to disprove it, do you really think the show and all it's good messages are just some big lie, and you're basing all of that on something the writers almost surely didn't put an ounce of thought into? I can't give you a scene where the show specifically condones slavery, but taking into consideration everything else in the show, I can't fathom how you could possibly even begin to justify thinking it would be tolerated, and on the basis of a minor background detail no less.

 

I won't ever accept the idea of slavery in MLP, and I see no reason why anyone else would. It doesn't make a bit of sense, contradicts everything else in such a catastrophic way that it isn't even funny, among other things I've tried to point out. If you can't see that, then I don't think we will ever see eye-to-eye, and perhaps this conversation should simply be ended.

And you are certainly free to abstain from this conversation, I certainly wouldn't hold it against you if it troubles you this much. That being said I think its a conversation that needs to happen, and there are plenty of replies already that are engaging in the debate and exchanging ideas. Please note that I've not personally attacked you at all during this exchange because this is purely a thought exorsize for entertainment, not a smear campaign against the ponies. I love the show just as much, I just have my own ways of going about that enjoyment. 

 

And no, its not "going over my head", nor do I necessarily disagree with you when you say "the ponies aren't evil" 

 

Which is why I ask in the title as well as the original post, if this isn't slavery, then what is the social status of cows and sheep?

 

At this point I could counter my assertions on my own more effectively than your indignation is doing. For example, Sombra enslaved the ponies on two occasions and both times it was considered evil. Yet at the same time they have cows and sheep whom, while having decidedly better conditions than Sombra gave to his subjects, still do not live the lifestyle or have the same freedoms afforded to ponies. There is a distinct difference in their power dynamic here, which is what I'm bringing up. 

 

If you can engage this conversation with an even temper I'd love to have you, but again, if this troubles you this much, there are plenty of other places on the forums to exchange ideas. 

[Vixor 80]

I think it should trouble everyone very much, considering it's an idea that contradicts everything else in MLP so heavily. And I don't exactly think it's a conversation that needs to or even should happen, but whatever.

 

And no, its not "going over my head", nor do I necessarily disagree with you when you say "the ponies aren't evil" 

 

If you're trying to push the idea that the ponies are treating others as slaves or second-class citizens, then you most certainly are. The ideas of "the ponies are good" and "the ponies practice slavery/segregation" are completely incompatible, and the show constantly stresses the former, so your proposed evidence for the latter is completely unconvincing. The bottom line I'm pushing here is that there is no justification for the idea of slavery in Equestria, and my arguments include how it's a benevolent society with benevolent characters (and benevolent rulers who seem to be dedicated to treating all their subjects fairly), and even the show itself from a more meta out-of-universe perspective.

 

As for directly answering the social status of sheep/cows, then it must be either; the scenes we have seen are misleading or otherwise wrong, or perhaps somehow misunderstood, and they are in fact free and ultimately equal, because they are sapient beings. Or, the scenes we have seen are misleading or otherwise wrong, and they are not actually capable of speech/aren't any different from livestock in our world. I'm pretty sure they are supposed to be sapient like the ponies, but if that's the case, then they must be free citizens with the same rights. If you agree that the ponies are good, then you couldn't possibly have any other conclusion, because slavery/segregation or otherwise treating others as second class citizens and good don't go together.

 

Again, I cannot even put into words how strongly I disagree with you on this, both on your interpretation and your views on what should be taken seriously when analyzing this stuff, but yeah, I've already said a lot, and we do not seem to have reached any sort of agreement, so I'll be going now. I will say that it is not my intention to come off as unnecessarily mean, and I apologize if you feel I have, but I am trying to properly emphasize things, which has made me use some harsher wording than I would otherwise. And I find my arguments to be pretty strong, considering we're talking about extreme and evil ideas like slavery, segregation, etc. The entirety of the rest of the show and the setting, characters, and stories in it is a very compelling argument against slavery ever being the case.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Vixor

[Buck Testa 5,503]

I think it should trouble everyone very much, considering it's an idea that contradicts everything else in MLP so heavily. And I don't exactly think it's a conversation that needs to or even should happen, but whatever.

 

 

If you're trying to push the idea that the ponies are treating others as slaves or second-class citizens, then you most certainly are. The ideas of "the ponies are good" and "the ponies practice slavery/segregation" are completely incompatible, and the show constantly stresses the former, so your proposed evidence for the latter is completely unconvincing. The bottom line I'm pushing here is that there is no justification for the idea of slavery in Equestria, and my argument for that is how it's a benevolent society with benevolent characters, and even the show itself from a more meta out-of-universe perspective.

 

As for directly answering the social status of sheep/cows, then it must be either; the scenes we have seen are misleading or otherwise wrong, or perhaps somehow misunderstood, and they are in fact free and ultimately equal, because they are sapient beings. Or, the scenes we have seen are misleading or otherwise wrong, and they are not actually capable of speech/aren't any different from livestock in our world. I'm pretty sure they are supposed to be sapient like the ponies, but if that's the case, then they must be free citizens with the same rights. If you agree that the ponies are good, then you couldn't possibly have any other conclusion, because slavery/segregation or otherwise treating others as second class citizens and good don't go together.

 

Again, I cannot even put into words how strongly I disagree with you on this, both on your interpretation and your views on what should be taken seriously when analyzing this stuff, but yeah, I've already said a lot, and we do not seem to have reached any sort of agreement, so I'll be going now. I will say that it is not my intention to come off as unnecessarily mean, and I apologize if you feel I have, but I am trying to properly emphasize things, which has made me use some harsher wording than I would otherwise. And I find my arguments to be pretty strong, considering we're talking about extreme and evil ideas like slavery, segregation, etc. The entirety of the rest of the show and the setting, characters, and stories in it is a very compelling argument against slavery ever being the case.

 

Fair enough, I respect your decision to abstain from the conversation. Its going to get some strong viewpoints, but that's what these kind of topics are all about. 

 

Feel free to look up those points I made in their respective contexts though, I don't think I've misrepresented them but I am only one set of eyes here. 

[Vixor 80]

Fair enough, I respect your decision to abstain from the conversation.

 

I've contributed quite heavily to the conversation, I haven't abstained from it, I just don't think there's much more to be said at this point, I've already made my points and I strongly stand behind them. I don't think you have much more to say either, honestly. 

[Buck Testa 5,503]

OK. I guess I won't ever post anything like that again, considering how people get so pissed about it. Also, I didn't just "roll into the topic" to say it's just a kids show. I contributed to the conversation earlier. I agree some people do, and they shouldn't. And trust me, I've seen some topics get really out of hand really fast because people don't understand anything is implied with the topic. Sorry for pissing you off. 

 

 

Ok, lets get this thing back on topic. Cows and sheep. Go.

Yay I got a convert

 

Now someone earlier mentioned that Cows and sheep could be in a symbiotic relationship instead of a master slave one. I can kind of see that myself. The ponies aren't particularly malicious towards them like the way Sombra was against the Crystal ponies when he opressed them. That being said there is certainly a level of the ponies looking down on other species. Rainbow Dash from what I recall made a joke about donkeys, and the aforementioned "Critter" remark from Applejack about the sheep come to mind. Perhaps The Cows and sheep had to make due with what they had even if the ponies have a bit of a superiority complex over them. The question then becomes how much did they give up to have this symbiotic relationship and how much do they really benefit from it? Like I said, sheep aren't even given houses, and Cows are all kept in one place, and the products they produce are pretty much taken whenever the ponies want, So it appears awfully one sided if it IS symbiotic in nature.