S07:E14 - Fame and Misfortune

[Dowlphin 463]

2 minutes ago, Gestum said:

Personally I really liked this episode. I don't think any other episode have made me laugh more. The song is the only part I didn't like. It isn't bad but it isn't something to hang in the christmas tree either. 

The song has that pop style from Equestria Girls and seems to borrow various more specific style elements from one or two of them. (Dunno the specific title, but very much at the beginning I thought I definitely have heard this before.)

[Dowlphin 463]

45 minutes ago, Venomous said:

During this episode's song I was able to clearly hear what all the flaws were of the main characters. However, I didn't quite hear RainbowDash state what hers are. She seemed to have worded her part differently. What line did she state her flaw?

http://mlp.wikia.com/wiki/Flawless

(I still think Pinkie said jump, not joke. It makes more sense to me that she jumps around because she is so happy, not jokes around. The former is a pure expression of joy, the latter more of an entertainment agenda, more from the head. But the lyrics aren't a masterpiece, so who knows?)

Edited August 16, 2017 by Dowlphin

[Music Chart Fan 819]

4 hours ago, GrimGrimoire said:

What a large majority of "bronies" seem to love to do, is utterly ignore that demographic, and then cry and whine because the show is not raising the bar for them and what they feel it should be.

So, to clarify, you think that significantly more than half (i.e., a "large majority") of bronies act in the manner that you describe? That strikes me as a pretty bold claim. Would you contend, for example, that significantly more than half of the members of MLP Forums, or the posts made on MLP Forums about the show, exhibit this behavior?

The reason I ask is that, in my years as a member here, I don't feel like that's what I've observed. And as I've said in previous posts, my concern is that if people perceive there to be many more "undesirables" (whiners, haters, nitpickers, etc.) than there actually are, then they might feel more justified in ganging up on perceived "undesirables" with ridicule, shaming, and stigmatization, with the effect of stifling minority opinions and narrowing the range of "acceptable" discussion. And, particularly as someone who has often made critical posts about the show, I would think that the purpose of forums like this one is to facilitate wide-ranging discussion and debate of differing observations, views, and opinions about the show, including critical or dissenting ones which many other members might disagree with.

[ShootingStar159 2,156]

1 hour ago, Music Chart Fan said:

So, to clarify, you think that significantly more than half (i.e., a "large majority") of bronies act in the manner that you describe? That strikes me as a pretty bold claim. Would you contend, for example, that significantly more than half of the members of MLP Forums, or the posts made on MLP Forums about the show, exhibit this behavior?

The reason I ask is that, in my years as a member here, I don't feel like that's what I've observed. And as I've said in previous posts, my concern is that if people perceive there to be many more "undesirables" (whiners, haters, nitpickers, etc.) than there actually are, then they might feel more justified in ganging up on perceived "undesirables" with ridicule, shaming, and stigmatization, with the effect of stifling minority opinions and narrowing the range of "acceptable" discussion. And, particularly as someone who has often made critical posts about the show, I would think that the purpose of forums like this one is to facilitate wide-ranging discussion and debate of differing observations, views, and opinions about the show, including critical or dissenting ones which many other members might disagree with.

So, I'm pretty new here, but I've already seen more than a few examples of the behavior shown in the episode. I've seen people here, and elsewhere, say that the complaints in the episode are outdated. That nobody is complaining about Fluttershy anymore, so why even mention it. I'd just like to point out that we can replace Fluttershy with someone else. Twilight got hate after No Second Prances for not learning that Starlight needed to make friends on her own from The Crystaling. Don't even get started on the Starlight hate, which I think every single one of those fandom problems could be applied to (maybe not applejack's, but I'm still not sure what that one was trying to say). The names and targets of the behaviors aren't important, the behavior is. 

I doubt very much that half the fandom behaves like this. I doubt it's even close to twenty percent. But that doesn't matter. There was one fan we never got to see in the episode, and it's the one I identify with: the one who read the journal, enjoyed it, and then went about their business. The writers have never heard a peep out me, and I bet the same is true for a large number, if not the majority of fans. The number of people who act out like this might small, but they make up for it by being louder than those who never say anything.

The best critiscism or at least the one that stood out the most to me was this:

There is a point at which healthy critiscism becomes toxic, and it's  when your critiscism becomes loud enough, constant enough, and nasty enough for it to start ruining the show for others. With all else said, I feel like the writers were trying to make two key points.

Don't ruin the experience for others, including those who have to work on the show.

And dont focus so much on the problems an episode has that you ignore or dismiss the message the writers are trying to convey, or let that ruin the episode for you. (Which is something that I am definitely guilty of)

I realize that's not something everyone, especially hyper-critical people want to hear. But the writers have every right to express how the level of criticism they receive effects them, and I feel like this was the best way to do it.

Edited August 16, 2017 by ShootingStar159

[GrimGrimoire 4,973]

1 minute ago, Music Chart Fan said:

So, to clarify, you think that significantly more than half (i.e., a "large majority") of bronies act in the manner that you describe? That strikes me as a pretty bold claim. Would you contend, for example, that significantly more than half of the members of MLP Forums, or the posts made on MLP Forums about the show, exhibit this behavior?

The reason I ask is that, in my years as a member here, I don't feel like that's what I've observed. And as I've said in previous posts, my concern is that if people perceive there to be many more "undesirables" (whiners, haters, nitpickers, etc.) than there actually are, then they might feel more justified in ganging up on perceived "undesirables" with ridicule, shaming, and stigmatization, with the effect of stifling minority opinions and narrowing the range of "acceptable" discussion. And, particularly as someone who has often made critical posts about the show, I would think that the purpose of forums like this one is to facilitate wide-ranging discussion and debate of differing observations, views, and opinions about the show, including critical or dissenting ones which many other members might disagree with.

I dunno, a large majority means different things to different people, it is not an exact figure. Some would argue anything I suppose (despite majority meaning more than half... so that is my bad in using the terminology poorly). I don't care about the number though since it is irreverent, I was not looking at percentages, I was basing it upon the various threads I see here, there and other assorted places, I am not looking to do headcounts here.

And yes a large amount of them do act that way. To clarify I am talking about the fandom in general, NOT JUST these forums, although these forums do have their fair share of them as well. I have no idea what you have been looking at though, since you can sometimes not go an entire day without stumbling over either a couple of posts or an entire thread on the subject. You forget you can't "gang up", "ridicule", "shame" or "stigmatize" "undesirables" on this forum very easily since it will often involve moderator action, and it rightfully should.

I agree with the bolded part of your statement... everyone is free to have an opinion and express it anyway they like, whether or not anyone agrees with it. But that is not what my point is about. If you do not like an episode or find fault in it, that is fine, no one can tell you how to feel about a particular episode... you can love it to death, or hate it with a fiery passion... it is all fair game. But there is a difference between giving a review of an episode you liked or hated and being realistic about it, and one that is just bashing it relentlessly or bringing it up again and again because (some generic examples):

• it is reforming a villain (again, it is aimed at kids with a very CLEAR message right in the title. I don't necessarily agree with reformations, I just understand them)
• is not starring your favorite character in every episode in every scene.
• Has a character you dislike in any episode or scene.
• Does not spend more time explaining something when you can clearly see the clock ticking. (To be fair, I have been guilty of this)
• Is destroying your personal headcanon
• Is not putting episodes out doing exactly what you say and think should be happening
• it is evolving the show for you
• it is not evolving the show for you
• Is comparing it to real world physics, politics, laws, thinking and just reality in general.
• It is not becoming the serious cartoon dealing with real life issues like South Park for example.
• It has not hurried up and ended to avoid becoming stale.

Yes these are all opinions and people are free to have them and communicate them.... but to continually nitpick at it, or go on long spiels about how it is destroying the show, fandom, or their life is heading into obnoxious territory.  For many observers it is tiring as all hell, and often makes you wonder what anyone really is thinking and wanting... I can't even begin to imagine what it makes the creators think.

The writers are trying to write this show for everybody... they are aiming it at children, but trying to continue making everyone happy in some way, shape or form. And yet quite a few just don't seem to see that. They cannot just say "Geez, that episode sucked.... oh well it wasn't for me."... instead it is often "Goddamn stupid writers don't know the brony fanbase at all! I am seriously wondering why I even bother watching this dumb show. _____ is so much better and is doing it right!"

Of course more often than not _______ is not aimed at children, MLP is. And it is my opinion that a large amount of the fandom choose to ignore that to further their own feelings of discontent.

 

[Celli 4,338]

37 minutes ago, ShootingStar159 said:

There was one fan we never got to see in the episode, and it's the one I identify with: the one who read the journal, enjoyed it, and then went about their business. The writers have never heard a peep out me, and I bet the same is true for a large number, if not the majority of fans

I think the word you're looking for is "silent majority".

[powerpuff-tsubasa 448]

very strange to admit spike isn't with twilight in this episode. in the beginning, i didn't trust starlight on the journal distribution. i was afraid she would commit a marketing scheme and betray the mane 6. luckily none of that happened (although i think starlight is kinda meh for me). 

otoh, i loved the musical showcase the mane 6 sang. They wanted the crowd to prove they're imperfect on friendships.

[Celli 4,338]

Just now, powerpuff-tsubasa said:

i was afraid she would commit a marketing scheme and betray the mane 6

What.

Are you afraid Starlight is secretly still evil or something? O.o

[powerpuff-tsubasa 448]

Just now, Celli said:

What.

Are you afraid Starlight is secretly still evil or something? O.o

yes. i'm glad she's trying to grow, but i still don't trust her fully whether she would be better or worse

Edited August 16, 2017 by powerpuff-tsubasa

[Steve Piranha 29,421]

Damn, Perfect Pear aired months ago, and as of now it has only 9 pages, while we are already in the 15th . This episode really gave much to talk  

[Dowlphin 463]

I'm totally in love with the song now, and it has given me the energy to even partially watch the episode several times, which I normally don't do anymore.

There is one segment in the song that strangely catches my attention every time, dunno whether you noticed: When Twilight is singing while looking at her book, that felt so much like typical regular music video techniques where the singer is doing something unrelated/mundane while singing the lines. Gave me a mild déjà vu feeling, especially with that enthusiastically-confident look of hers. Maybe it reminds me of a scene from a very specific music video, but I'd have no idea which. It's just a total magic moment for me.

 

reference:

 

Edited August 16, 2017 by Dowlphin

[Thrond 3,263]

When I think about a better story with the lesson of not being obnoxious with your criticism, I basically just think of season 6's "Stranger Than Fan Fiction." That doesn't really cover everything this episode is trying to say, but I still don't think anything else in this episode comes across as clearly as its attempts to refute criticism. "Stranger Than Fan Fiction" had empathy for Quibble, whereas this just sort of feels like an angry screed to me. 

51 minutes ago, Steve Piranha said:

Damn, Perfect Pear aired months ago, and as of now it has only 9 pages, while we are already in the 15th . This episode really gave much to talk  

Controversy breeds conversation, especially when the subject matter seems tailor-made to bring out hostility. 

[Dowlphin 463]

1 minute ago, AlexanderThrond said:

Controversy breeds conversation, especially when the subject matter seems tailor-made to bring out hostility. 

Controversation tail-made to breed horsetility.

[Thrond 3,263]

Just now, Dowlphin said:

Controversation tail-made to breed horsetility.

Stop, I'm allergic to puns! 

Edited August 16, 2017 by AlexanderThrond

[Dowlphin 463]

5 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

Stop, I'm allergic to puns! 

Then you better stay far away from me. I'm a puntheist.

Although I recommend you just enjoy the hay fever.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Dowlphin

[Steve Piranha 29,421]

1 hour ago, AlexanderThrond said:

 

Controversy breeds conversation, especially when the subject matter seems tailor-made to bring out hostility. 

Still rather impressive considering the aforementioned episode has been a fandom demand since times of yore

 

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

3 hours ago, Steve Piranha said:

Damn, Perfect Pear aired months ago, and as of now it has only 9 pages, while we are already in the 15th . This episode really gave much to talk

The episode made you think and want to talk about it, IN GOOD WAYS (in my opinion).

2 hours ago, Dowlphin said:

Controversation tail-made to breed horsetility.

OMG. I love you . I have a very long way to learn about puns. 

4 hours ago, ShootingStar159 said:

The names and targets of the behaviors aren't important, the behavior is. 

Very good point. You can apply this episode to any toxic fandom that make brony fandom look tame in comparision. 

 

3 hours ago, GrimGrimoire said:

It has not hurried up and ended to avoid becoming stale.

 

3 hours ago, GrimGrimoire said:

relentlessly or bringing it up again and again because

Remind me about a guy who constant rambling about leaving the show after the movie end for more than 6 months. I read almost all of his comments for over 6 months 

 

3 hours ago, GrimGrimoire said:

Has a character you dislike in any episode or scene.

*Reading Fame & Misfortune promo video comment section of Equestria Daily*. "Will Starlight save the day" type of comments come to mind, just because she is in promo, its doesnt mean she will steal everyone spotline, darnit.

5 hours ago, Music Chart Fan said:

So, to clarify, you think that significantly more than half (i.e., a "large majority") of bronies act in the manner that you describe?

I think he may be a bit exaggerated. I think Vocal minority is more accurate, because a lot of people doesnt love the show anymore left the show/fandom .  Toxicity doesnt need numbers, they just need to be louder.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Lambdadelta

[Star Petal 215]

I liked this episode, but the ponies who raved over the mane six really ticked me off. I am just sitting there like, WTF, are they really that stupid? 

Do the mass number of ponies have no realization that their lives, and the entire planet has been saved several times over by the mane six? How could they possibly think that the book was not a work of fiction, and the ponies were not "characters"?

The song was pretty good. 

[zenith32 76]

It is rare that, in a show like this, meta references fit in with the episode. An episode filled with meta references, and almost nothing but...it's an interesting first for the series. I don't dislike the episode, and it is a fun episode in a lot of ways, but it's unlikely to be one that I go out of my way to watch very often.

[Dowlphin 463]

20 minutes ago, Star Petal said:

I liked this episode, but the ponies who raved over the mane six really ticked me off. I am just sitting there like, WTF, are they really that stupid? 

Do the mass number of ponies have no realization that their lives, and the entire planet has been saved several times over by the mane six? How could they possibly think that the book was not a work of fiction, and the ponies were not "characters"?

The song was pretty good. 

Yeah, that bothered me a little too, but not because I found it not believable. It was just painful to watch. Common people are often like that. Yes, sure, there's a princess and she has friends, and she saved Equestria or something, but you know, they have other stuff to care about. What do they actually know. Yeah, people are that shocking sometimes. I learned the hard way. The show has always focused so much on the main cast that it masked the rest of the population. So in a way the critique works the other way, too, even though not necessarily fair: What does the mane 6 actually know about the common ponies out there?

They did get a taste every now and then though. I found that Manehattan episodes were always a good reality check. Now I remember I actually made a blog entry about one in this context:

 

[azbat 305]

I love that this episode was released the same weekend as BronyCon. I am certain that was intentional. An extra layer of meta-ness.

[Dowlphin 463]

2 minutes ago, azbat said:

I love that this episode was released the same weekend as BronyCon. I am certain that was intentional. An extra layer of meta-ness.

Gave the whole thing a meta-like paint.

[Hierok 11,831]

18 minutes ago, Dowlphin said:

Gave the whole thing a meta-like paint.

Yes, but the reactors just recently react.  Applegeek and Blank Check still haven't.

[ChB 18,550]

25 minutes ago, azbat said:

I love that this episode was released the same weekend as BronyCon. I am certain that was intentional. An extra layer of meta-ness.

How were the reactions at BronyCon?

[Justin_Case001 4,885]

I'm quoting myself, here, because I want to make a follow-up.

On 8/13/2017 at 1:43 AM, Justin_Case001 said:

Something about this just makes me feel....sick to my stomach.

Okay, so...as DWK would say, it's so meta I think I'm gonna have a psychotic break.  What have we become?  We made this.  We, every single one of us, created this.  And I...just don't like it.  And I really hate myself for being critical of the episode, because I'm being exactly what Hasbro was making fun of the entire time.....*SIGH*.  Should I stop reviewing?  Should I stop analyzing?  Maybe that's the moral, here.

I loved Slice of Life.  I was an avid defender of SoL.  But....but this?  Here's the problem for me: when I watch the show, I want to escape into a fantasy world that's cute and colorful with interesting, dynamic, relatable characters that manage to teach some good lessons along the way.  But now, there's no escape into another world, anymore.  The entire pony world has become us.  We're them.  The townsponies are the brony fandom.  For the duration of the episode, I'm just here.  Right here.  Like, completely LITERALLY, right here on the forums.  The episode was basically like just reading forum posts for 22 minutes.  I mean, it's like they just grabbed the forums in its entirety and smashed it onto the screen.  Now, I enjoy the forums.  Really, I do.  But I don't want to read the forums while I'm watching the show.  I generally like a little fan service, and a little meta fun-poking at the fandom, but this is so beyond meta that it's become some weird, deranged, Frankenstein-esque merging of the show and the internet into one freakish, ultra-meta, cronenberg abomination that will be crushed under its own weight, and it kind of makes my brain want to vomit.  Once again, f*ck me for over-analyzing, thus making myself a cancerous appendage jutting out of the cronenberg monster.

Really, when you compare this with Perfect Pear, it's just two different shows: one that takes place in the FIM universe, and another that takes place in a parallel universe where our universe has merged with theirs.  I do have to hand it to the writers, though, they have us down, pat.  I mean, they have our flippin' number, dude.

I absolutely cannot f*cking WAIT to see DWK's Totally Legit Recap of this episode.  Like....omg....he's soooo gonna totally flip his sh*t.  It's gonna be great! 

So....it seems the reception to this episode is far better than I expected, especially considering the loss of sh*t that happened in the wake of SoL.  I've been trying to see all sides, here, because I kind of feel like I've pulled a 180, since I loved SoL, and I wanted to examine and understand exactly why I had this shift.  I typically love fandom references and meta-fun-pokes, (like Rainbow and Quibble's canon debate), but for me, the line in the sand is when characters behave in ways that they would absolutely never behave in-universe.  The townsponies were complete f*cking a**holes that just kept sh*tting on friends that they have known for years.  That's the real kicker, here.  The townsponies have known the mane 6 for years.  Albeit they're not all close friends, but it's a close-knit community, and they've all known the mane 6 for years.  Some, like the Apples, they've known for their whole lives.  And yet, the townsponies acted like they were fictional characters that cheated them.  I could have let it slide if they came around after the song, but no, they just doubled down and kept yelling.  F*ck, dude.  Really?  And then there was Pinkie's moral: if there's a sh*tstorm on social media, and everyone's mad at you, just wait until they get bored and lose interest.  I'm sorry, but I'd rather not have the show feel that close to the real world.  I just can't condone this episode when the townsponies acted like a torch & pitchfork mob that is so far from the way they'd really behave.  For me, it stops being a fun reference/parody at that point.