spoiler The Mane 6 and Spike were dumbed down for the Season 7 Finale

[KH7672 1,604]

Do you agree or disagree with the idea:

That the Mane 6 and Spike should have come to the conclusion Starlight did but they were too dumbed down so that only Starlight could do it and save the day...again (which she didn't by the way, at least by herself).

I do not agree with that but I'd love to hear from those for and against this claim because maybe I'm overlooking a major flaw in characterization from the episode.

Edited October 31, 2017 by KH7672

[Sione 1,108]

Aye aye, I see where you're coming from.

I agree, I don't think it was nessessarily them being too "dumb down" but I see what you mean.

[KH7672 1,604]

10 minutes ago, Sione said:

Aye aye, I see where you're coming from.

I agree, I don't think it was nessessarily them being too "dumb down" but I see what you mean.

I think you misunderstand what the my initial post is about. I do not agree with the topic's opinion, I'm just trying to understand where this opinion comes from. However since it does seem like you do think they're characterization was a little messy in favor of Starlight, care to explain why you think so?

[Sione 1,108]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, Yes, I agree with the thought that, maybe a bit sloppy, not really "messy". since i'm not currently following your discussion, can you re-word your initial thought?

[Megas 27,064]

Probably because the episode gave us more of Starlight’ Insight than everyone else. That said I actually thought it was handled well, the mane 6 got their fair share of spotlight and got to attribute to saving the day as a group for a change. Only real problem I had with the mane 6 was Twilight just taking the shit she got from Starswirl, but we got that scene of her friends defending her and calling out Starswirl at least which was nice. I felt they were all within reason, as Starlight felt for Stygian because she could relate. 

 

If you want a real example of fucking over the mane cast to shill Starlight you can’t do worse than TWABA

Edited October 30, 2017 by Kiryu-Chan

[Ivan The Adorable 304]

There is kind of a total lack of critical thought from the main cast to give Starlight her central place in the story. But, I'm mostly fine with the idea of Twilight being misled by her idolization of Starswirl, and the rest of the main cast trusting Twilight's judgement in this manner.

There is kind of a weird framing thing where it simultaneously doesn't seem like Starlight should immediately be suspicious that there was more to the story, but I'm okay at least with the idea that Starlight has more sympathy and caution in judging villainous figures due to her own experiences

As I've said elsewhere, my main problem with the conflict in this episode is that I don't feel the last couple of seasons make Twilight feel regularly competent enough in her ability to interact with her student for her deference to Starswirl to feel more like a departure from her usual sense in handling the situation.

 

[Steve Piranha 28,782]

I did see a couple of times that argument coming to light mostly because Twi failed to consider the mere possibility of freeing the Pony of Shadows as well, but Starlight was the only one expressing doubts on the plan. It may be quite valid, but those often forget the strong points in the episode just to focus on the negative...... again

 

[KH7672 1,604]

1 hour ago, Sione said:

Sorry for the misunderstanding, Yes, I agree with the thought that, maybe a bit sloppy, not really "messy". since i'm not currently following your discussion, can you re-word your initial thought?

Thanks, I tried to reword it to be more concise.

[Sione 1,108]

Okie then, well I can't dote on this for long so i'll get back to you when i'm online again, until then!

[ShootingStar159 2,155]

There are two main complaints along the lines you’ve mentioned that I’ve seen brought up.

The first is that someone in the group should have made the assumption that bringing the pillars back would also bring back the pony of shadows. To be honest... they’re right. You have three characters well versed in magic, one of which is already doubting the intelligence of the plan. Even discounting them, you have another five ponies, and a dragon, who should be able to make at least an educated and logical guess at the result. I’d be interested in the results of a poll asking how many people were able to guess that bringing the pillars back would also bring back the PoS, but I feel like the results would be greater than 95%.

So, really, the question is “Is this a problem?” Well, considering the other option is to end the episode twenty minutes in and miss out on a really good finale with great character interactions and development, I’m more than willing to suspend my disbelief of the scenario and just enjoy the story.

 

The other complaint is that Starlight is the only one willing to give Stygian a chance at redemption. This is one I disagree with. 

So, I had a whole complicated argument laid out, but it was too confusing and disjointed so I’m cutting it down to two main points: the main six are used to beating villains with their Rainbow Lasers, so it’s natural for them to default to it as a solution. And the only one of them who had a good redemption, Twilight, was more interested in pleasing her idol than listening to Starlight.

Edited October 31, 2017 by ShootingStar159

[KH7672 1,604]

13 minutes ago, Ivan The Adorable said:

There is kind of a weird framing thing where it simultaneously doesn't seem like Starlight should immediately be suspicious that there was more to the story, but I'm okay at least with the idea that Starlight has more sympathy and caution in judging villainous figures due to her own experiences

While it may be Starlight's own experience powering that minset, I also feel that is the character she is being written as, she starting to listen first before jumping to conclusions. She listened to Trixie without judgement, listened to Maud's interests without judgement, listened to Pharynx (at first) and also she did talk with Chrysalis and even tried to see her as a leader, just a misguided one, not so much a villain. It is a wonder if this was where they were trying to go with her.

[DonMaguz 1,023]

I think Twilight was a bit blinded because her admiration (fanaticism?) to Starswirl, he is so magnificent in her mind that every statement he says comes down at the truth for her.
She didn't question the reasons of the pillars to banish the Pony of Shadows because (for her) clearly Starswirl would have thought of another way to defeat him if there was one.
She even showed that fanaticism when presenting her spell to banish the Pony of Shadows without the sacrifice of the pillars, when Starswirl dismisses her spell without giving it a glance Twilight seems to have accepted the outcome just before AJ and the rest of the mane 5 stood up for her.
For me it's definitely on character for Twilight to be blinded by her admiration, she has shown before that type of blindness with Celestia as her object of admiration.

The mane 5 and Spike seldomly go against Twilight's decisions, they completely trust her judgement and follow her. All mane 5 become leaders when a problem is in their fields, but this one is about magic, they trust her to decide what to do and stand by her side to help however she needs them to.
I think they are being consistent showing their support to Twilight's calls and research while helping with other necessities such as getting the pillars' artifacts and going to the dark places of the realm.
There's also Starswirl journal's entry and the tale the pillars tell of the Pony of Shadows, from their perspective the conclusion was logical and the mane 6 don't have any other source of information to think they were mistaken.

Now, Starlight seemed to be worried about Twilight and offered her a different approach, better aligned to Twilight's knowledge and lessons, she is not empathyzing with Stygian at this point, she's just trying to share, with Twilight, the lessons and experiences she went through (lack of information and willingness to listen were the main problems in No Second Prances, A Royal Problem and To Change a Changeling).
When she externs her concerns to Starswirl and he comes up with "once a villain, always a villain" is the moment she changes her approach from "trying to apply the lessons I've learned" to "I need more information because Starswirl is not giving any other idea or further research a chance"; and she knows for a fact that a villain can be reformed.

 

[Kyoshi Frost Wolf 40,292]

Funny thing, it is even worse than that. Not only were the mane 6 made into total morons, but so were the other pillars. Not a single one of the other pillars, the friggin creators of the elements of harmony, none of them ever thought that talking it out could be a good idea. Same goes for the mane 6, the elements of harmony themselves. All of this just so Starlight could be the super smart right pony in the end. I hate it. It ruined the finale for me almost entirely. Such a great setup all for that. They write Starswirl to be a total jackass and then all the other ponies besides Starlight just nodded their heads like robots to his plan. It is so irritating to think about. Out of all these ponies, only Starlight could come up with the brilliant idea of...talking it out. Even when she did bring it up, all the others were just like "Nah, that's dumb." Really? The embodiment of friendship thinks talking it out is a bad idea? Okay. Makes total sense to me. /s

I don't hate Starlight, but it is sad to see this kind of writing to make her seem so smart, after having her best episode right before all of this, with Uncommon Bond. I am definitely in the minority here, but I didn't like the finale much. It had tons of great ideas, but they were squandered in the end.

[Ivan The Adorable 304]

18 minutes ago, Kyoshi said:

Funny thing, it is even worse than that. Not only were the mane 6 made into total morons, but so were the other pillars. Not a single one of the other pillars, the friggin creators of the elements of harmony, none of them ever thought that talking it out could be a good idea. Same goes for the mane 6, the elements of harmony themselves. All of this just so Starlight could be the super smart right pony in the end. I hate it. It ruined the finale for me almost entirely. Such a great setup all for that. They write Starswirl to be a total jackass and then all the other ponies besides Starlight just nodded their heads like robots to his plan. It is so irritating to think about. Out of all these ponies, only Starlight could come up with the brilliant idea of...talking it out. Even when she did bring it up, all the others were just like "Nah, that's dumb." Really? The embodiment of friendship thinks talking it out is a bad idea? Okay. Makes total sense to me. /s

I don't hate Starlight, but it is sad to see this kind of writing to make her seem so smart, after having her best episode right before all of this, with Uncommon Bond. I am definitely in the minority here, but I didn't like the finale much. It had tons of great ideas, but they were squandered in the end.

I actually give the writing of the original pillars of harmony a pass in this regard much more so than the Mane 6, in that part of the history leading up to this and what I gather one of the intentions of this event was is that the Mane 6 had already surpassed them in the friendship department. The original emphasis on Starswirl's spell before it was completed by Twilight was indeed Celestia's lament that he had never truly appreciated the power of friendship. As such, the pillars should be missing that piece of this puzzle.

[KH7672 1,604]

1 hour ago, Kyoshi said:

Funny thing, it is even worse than that. Not only were the mane 6 made into total morons, but so were the other pillars. Not a single one of the other pillars, the friggin creators of the elements of harmony, none of them ever thought that talking it out could be a good idea. Same goes for the mane 6, the elements of harmony themselves.

I really like your reasoning as too why they would think talking would be a possible solution they are thoughtful caring characters after all, but I have one question for that reasoning. When?

When have we ever seen the Mane 6 ever considering talking to an evil villain, learn from them their motivation as opposed to facing them magic friendship lasers blazing. The answer in all seven seasons from what I've seen: Never. Every villain they have faced at least for the first time either the villain monologued their motivation themselves (Nightmare Moon, Chrysalis) they didn't even care about motivation and just wanted defeat (Disord, Tirek) or only after exhausting all the offensive possibilities (Starlight). However Discord is an interesting one as Fluttershy did get to talk to him, only AFTER being told it was her job to do so by Celestia and even then Twilight still wanted the easy way out reform spell.

Compare that to Starlight who has taken the time to know the character she is dealing with. Be it a villain like Chrysalis and talking to her leader to leader instead of victim to villain. Antagonists like Pharynx, at least before the mob mentality convinced her he was a lost cause then realising it was a mistake to follow that. To her friends like Trixie, looking past her arrogance and mistakes, and Maud, looking past her personality (that the Mane 6 minus Pinkie were also put off by) and looking more into why she is who she is and her love of rocks. That's the characterization I've seen Starlight has been building up toward so it is difficult to see why she wouldn't think this.

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

33 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

Never

Yes, good point. Remember how the mane 6 treat Discord during season 4 after Keep Calm and Flutter On? They even try to banish him again (beside Fluttershy) in S4 premiere. When they are betrayed in Twilight Kingdom, they didn't understand why, guess what, you never actually treat him like a friend anyway. Uh wait, remember the Reformation Spell in Keep Calm. Mane 6 records are all about defeat the villains by kicking their ass (they defeat villains like breakfast). 

Why Starlight can come to the conclusion before anyone else? Well, she learned a lesson from To Change a Changeling, she did try to kick Pharyxn out once without consideration  until she listened to Thorax story, she learned her lessons.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Lambdadelta

[Kyoshi Frost Wolf 40,292]

32 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

I really like your reasoning as too why they would think talking would be a possible solution they are thoughtful caring characters after all, but I have one question for that reasoning. When?

When have we ever seen the Mane 6 ever considering talking to an evil villain, learn from them their motivation as opposed to facing them magic friendship lasers blazing. The answer in all seven seasons from what I've seen: Never. Every villain they have faced at least for the first time either the villain monologued their motivation themselves (Nightmare Moon, Chrysalis) they didn't even care about motivation and just wanted defeat (Disord, Tirek) or only after exhausting all the offensive possibilities (Starlight). However Discord is an interesting one as Fluttershy did get to talk to him, only AFTER being told it was her job to do so by Celestia and even then Twilight still wanted the easy way out reform spell.

Compare that to Starlight who has taken the time to know the character she is dealing with. Be it a villain like Chrysalis and talking to her leader to leader instead of victim to villain. Antagonists like Pharynx, at least before the mob mentality convinced her he was a lost cause then realising it was a mistake to follow that. To her friends like Trixie, looking past her arrogance and mistakes, and Maud, looking past her personality (that the Mane 6 minus Pinkie were also put off by) and looking more into why she is who she is and her love of rocks. That's the characterization I've seen Starlight has been building up toward so it is difficult to see why she wouldn't think this.

That's my problem. Why would Starlight be the only one to figure this out? I get it that she has a relation to the villain's scenario, but even when she brought it up, all of the other characters not once considered the same thing. If they would have had the others eventually questioning Starswirl's plan after Starlight suggests her idea, then it would have been a lot better. Not perfect, but definitely better than how it was executed.

[KH7672 1,604]

50 minutes ago, Kyoshi said:

That's my problem. Why would Starlight be the only one to figure this out? I get it that she has a relation to the villain's scenario, but even when she brought it up, all of the other characters not once considered the same thing. If they would have had the others eventually questioning Starswirl's plan after Starlight suggests her idea, then it would have been a lot better. Not perfect, but definitely better than how it was executed.

Okay so I just rewatched that scene and you do have a point for the rest of the Mane 6. However when it comes to the Pillars they were just as bent on the banishment. The entire time during the flash back they truly believed stygian was doing something bad and this entire scene was without old Beardy Mc-baised. Somnambula lost her hope on his second chance when he returned with dark powers of vengence and Meadowbrook was the one to say what they believed Stygian was doing with their artifacts (I bring up thess two specifically because they were names tossed around most for who would care more). Also remember his betrayal literally feels like yesterday for them. They may have wanted to reconcile at one point but that time has passed.

Now onto the rest of the Mane 6, aside from Pinkie and Fluttershy, it is very possible they are just as starstruck as Twilight, Campfire Tales showed just just how much they resonated with each legend now getting to work with them (especially with the fact they are not as arrogant as Starswirl) it would more like going against your friends better judgement. Starlight had no pillar and on top of that she had to watch her mentor be emotionally bludgeoned by her idol that she probably was determined to find a better way.

That leads exactly into what made the rest of the Mane 6 still feel just as competent. They were all ready to go with the banishment plan just wishing for a way to keep the pillars. Immediately comes Twilight with a way, a perfect solution and ome they all personally advocate is not "half-baked." A solution everyone sans Starlight is in agreement with. And truthfully that solution would have been fine. Like no reprocusions except for losing the elements which the pillars say they will stand in for. Even Starlight's talking plan had nothing to account for the elements. The only different was she was treating the Pony of Shadows like a person not a villain, because that's how she sees everyone now thanks to her experiences. Like I said, when have the Mane 6 ever treated their villain like anything other than a villain needed to be stopped. I concede it does not help we know nothing of the Pony of Shadow's actual strength to feel the apparent threat, and they probably is the biggest reason it is hard to see why they must banish him like he's Tirek, (honestly if Starlight suggested talking it out with Tirek even I'd say she's crazy) but that is more with his characterization than theirs.

Edited October 31, 2017 by KH7672

[Thrond 3,257]

This wasn't my biggest issue with the finale, which I just felt took the show's boring mythology too seriously and stuck too closely to formula, but it did make the emotional core a bit harder for me to latch on to. I'm not entirely sure that the mane six acting poorly is my whole issue here, though, and I don't think I explained my thoughts on these points well enough, so I'll try to take on the main defences:

The main defence of the first instance is that Twilight brought back the Pony of Shadows because she was so caught up in her idolization of Starswirl. My first issue with this is simply that I don't find Twilight's arguments convincing. If Equestria has gotten by just fine without Starswirl, why on Earth should Twilight need to bring him back? Second, if she's just using that as an excuse because she just wants to see Starswirl in real life, then I think that's significantly more irresponsible behaviour than I would expect from her at this point in the show. If all this had been skimmed over in the first few minutes of the episode, it wouldn't be so bad, but the entire first half is dedicated to this idea which I find either unconvincing or asinine. Third, why couldn't any of her other friends realized this was a bad idea? People praise this episode for giving them something to do, but all that amounts to is collecting MacGuffins, and when the second half rolls around, they're just as useless as always. 

Now, as for Starlight knowing to help Stygian, there are two main defences. The first is that Twilight was too blinded by her adoration of Starswirl to know better. But Starlight induces doubt in her pretty early in the first half, and since Twilight technically outranks Starswirl, I'd expect her to be able to stand up to him if she had doubts. I know that she has strong moral convictions, and I know that she cares about second chances, so it's frustrating to see her act so passive through the whole second half, considering that her view of Starlight already seems either unfounded or irresponsible. This may have been alleviated if we got to see inside her head, but unfortunately Starlight heavily dominates the second half - and, while I'm gonna continue, I do think that's closer to what bothers me than the mane six being "dumbed down." Sure, I can accept them making these decisions, but I feel like the factors which motivated these decisions aren't given enough time to breathe, making it feel like the mane six are relegated to making the "wrong" decision for Starlight to correct. There's some justification, but it's almost all delivered in exposition. 

The other defence is that Starlight's experiences would make her more inclined to sympathize with the big bad than the mane six. And to be fair, there's some truth to that. I can point to several instances where the mane six and Spike have given someone else a second chance, but few of these cases have involved an existential threat to Equestria, whereas Starlight has solved all of her big adventures so far by talking. And the episode does pay lip service to Starlight having equal reason to believe Starswirl's account. But the strange way that Starlight has been written over the years makes it feel less true to me that Starlight would be the first one to think of others. Time and time again, the show has depicted Starlight thinking of herself first and struggling to understand how her decisions would effect those around her, so this case where she's suddenly supposed to be the most empathetic of the lot is a little hard to swallow. And if you want to argue that this isn't the main idea, well, I'd find that easier to deal with if we got inside Twilight's head more in the second half instead of butting all the characters against each other and doubling down on the cliched mythology and underdeveloped new characters.

That, more than the mane six being "dumbed down," is my main problem here. Starlight gets all the focus in the latter half. Twilight has an internal conflict which happens almost exclusively through fleeting gestures. We never get in her head, and the other five (plus Spike) are almost entirely useless after the first half, which is so frustrating because most of the meat of the story is in that second half. Again, this isn't my main problem with the episode at all, but it's sort of annoying, and I think when people complain about the mane six being "dumbed down," what they really mean is that Starlight's character traits haven't been satisfyingly codified, and that we don't get enough time to empathize with the others' decisions. We know Twilight's decisions are wrong because it's Starlight's doubt that we keep returning to, and that makes her feel like a bit player in a conflict between two characters I don't care about. And when it's easy to imagine her playing a much more active role much earlier, that's kinda frustrating; all the episode would have to do would be having Starlight convince Twilight earlier, and then work to your epic climax from there. It wouldn't have been perfect, but at least Twilight wouldn't have been so passive and sidelined. 

[Ganondox 899]

They weren’t dumbed down, they acted completely rationally given what Starswirl told them and their own experience with the Pony of Shadows as well as other villains. 

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

49 minutes ago, Ganondox said:

They weren’t dumbed down, they acted completely rationally given what Starswirl told them and their own experience with the Pony of Shadows as well as other villains. 

And Pony of Shadow cant have any chance to explain himself if Twilight didnt take any action, seriously, in Pillars's story, all you see is Stygian stole his friends's artifacts and become villain, no one can actually understand his motivations. Pony of Shadow is not Trixie or any mundane villain that you just have some sweet time to have a decent conversation, that creature can replinquish the land with darkness for Celestia sake, a rational human being wont ask a terriorist why he doing his things while he is holding a button, guess what, a pony, Starlight Glimmer did that. When Starlight suggested that they can talk with Pony of Shadow, i was like 'What?! Are you stupid? I know you like to reform everyone but that shadow dude look like another Tirek' 

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

1 hour ago, Lambdadelta said:

And Pony of Shadow cant have any chance to explain himself if Twilight didnt take any action, seriously, in Pillars's story, all you see is Stygian stole his friends's artifacts and become villain, no one can actually understand his motivations. Pony of Shadow is not Trixie or any mundane villain that you just have some sweet time to have a decent conversation, that creature can replinquish the land with darkness for Celestia sake, a rational human being wont ask a terriorist why he doing his things while he is holding a button, guess what, a pony, Starlight Glimmer did that. When Starlight suggested that they can talk with Pony of Shadow, i was like 'What?! Are you stupid? I know you like to reform everyone but that shadow dude look like another Tirek' 

Your two post perfectly summarize what I wanted to say so..

This.

3 hours ago, AlexanderThrond said:

This wasn't my biggest issue with the finale, which I just felt took the show's boring mythology too seriously and stuck too closely to formula, but it did make the emotional core a bit harder for me to latch on to. I'm not entirely sure that the mane six acting poorly is my whole issue here, though, and I don't think I explained my thoughts on these points well enough, so I'll try to take on the main defences:

The main defence of the first instance is that Twilight brought back the Pony of Shadows because she was so caught up in her idolization of Starswirl. My first issue with this is simply that I don't find Twilight's arguments convincing. If Equestria has gotten by just fine without Starswirl, why on Earth should Twilight need to bring him back? Second, if she's just using that as an excuse because she just wants to see Starswirl in real life, then I think that's significantly more irresponsible behaviour than I would expect from her at this point in the show. If all this had been skimmed over in the first few minutes of the episode, it wouldn't be so bad, but the entire first half is dedicated to this idea which I find either unconvincing or asinine. Third, why couldn't any of her other friends realized this was a bad idea? People praise this episode for giving them something to do, but all that amounts to is collecting MacGuffins, and when the second half rolls around, they're just as useless as always. 

Now, as for Starlight knowing to help Stygian, there are two main defences. The first is that Twilight was too blinded by her adoration of Starswirl to know better. But Starlight induces doubt in her pretty early in the first half, and since Twilight technically outranks Starswirl, I'd expect her to be able to stand up to him if she had doubts. I know that she has strong moral convictions, and I know that she cares about second chances, so it's frustrating to see her act so passive through the whole second half, considering that her view of Starlight already seems either unfounded or irresponsible. This may have been alleviated if we got to see inside her head, but unfortunately Starlight heavily dominates the second half - and, while I'm gonna continue, I do think that's closer to what bothers me than the mane six being "dumbed down." Sure, I can accept them making these decisions, but I feel like the factors which motivated these decisions aren't given enough time to breathe, making it feel like the mane six are relegated to making the "wrong" decision for Starlight to correct. There's some justification, but it's almost all delivered in exposition. 

The other defence is that Starlight's experiences would make her more inclined to sympathize with the big bad than the mane six. And to be fair, there's some truth to that. I can point to several instances where the mane six and Spike have given someone else a second chance, but few of these cases have involved an existential threat to Equestria, whereas Starlight has solved all of her big adventures so far by talking. And the episode does pay lip service to Starlight having equal reason to believe Starswirl's account. But the strange way that Starlight has been written over the years makes it feel less true to me that Starlight would be the first one to think of others. Time and time again, the show has depicted Starlight thinking of herself first and struggling to understand how her decisions would effect those around her, so this case where she's suddenly supposed to be the most empathetic of the lot is a little hard to swallow. And if you want to argue that this isn't the main idea, well, I'd find that easier to deal with if we got inside Twilight's head more in the second half instead of butting all the characters against each other and doubling down on the cliched mythology and underdeveloped new characters.

That, more than the mane six being "dumbed down," is my main problem here. Starlight gets all the focus in the latter half. Twilight has an internal conflict which happens almost exclusively through fleeting gestures. We never get in her head, and the other five (plus Spike) are almost entirely useless after the first half, which is so frustrating because most of the meat of the story is in that second half. Again, this isn't my main problem with the episode at all, but it's sort of annoying, and I think when people complain about the mane six being "dumbed down," what they really mean is that Starlight's character traits haven't been satisfyingly codified, and that we don't get enough time to empathize with the others' decisions. We know Twilight's decisions are wrong because it's Starlight's doubt that we keep returning to, and that makes her feel like a bit player in a conflict between two characters I don't care about. And when it's easy to imagine her playing a much more active role much earlier, that's kinda frustrating; all the episode would have to do would be having Starlight convince Twilight earlier, and then work to your epic climax from there. It wouldn't have been perfect, but at least Twilight wouldn't have been so passive and sidelined. 

Well, ignoring the rest because I am far too tired to have an extensive debate, but a great many of us love the shows mythology and lore and love when the show writers take it seriously.

[Thrond 3,257]

16 minutes ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

Well, ignoring the rest because I am far too tired to have an extensive debate, but a great many of us love the shows mythology and lore and love when the show writers take it seriously.

More power to you. I was bored though. 

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

20 minutes ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

Well, ignoring the rest because I am far too tired to have an extensive debate, but a great many of us love the shows mythology and lore and love when the show writers take it seriously.

Damn right, when the show cant take anything seriously, dont expect the audiences will take it seriously either, like what we are doing right now, discussing a show for little girls to sell some ugly G1 dolls.  

[Adamgreen 1,129]

I don't really think they were dumb down. They all have even moments to shine and important to the story without being left out (Except for Spike at the climax of Part 2. He sort of disappeared).