Vegan Pony Coffee Club Lounge (VPCCL)

[Dabmanz 2,139]

Happy Nightmare night to everyone in the Vpcc

[Kind Claw 407]

I would say the alcohol might have been the culprit this time 

[Dabmanz 2,139]

6 minutes ago, Kind Claw said:

I would say the alcohol might have been the culprit this time 

Btw it was world Vegan day on november first and I got the two for one hungry jacks Vegan burger. I really like that Burger.

[Kind Claw 407]

5 minutes ago, Dabmanz said:

Btw it was world Vegan day on november first and I got the two for one hungry jacks Vegan burger. I really like that Burger.

They are pretty good I think the only improvement would be making an actual fake meat instead of a vege patty have you tried fake meat patty's before? 

[Dabmanz 2,139]

Just now, Kind Claw said:

They are pretty good I think the only improvement would be making an actual fake meat instead of a vege patty have you tried fake meat patty's before? 

Not from places like hungry jacks but I have had mock meats from supermarkets.

[Kind Claw 407]

Just now, Dabmanz said:

Not from places like hungry jacks but I have had mock meats from supermarkets.

There is a place in Australia that serves some the most accurate vegan fish and chicken burgers ever! since you are a pescatarian you'd probably be impressed when you try a vegan fried fish burger

[Dabmanz 2,139]

7 minutes ago, Kind Claw said:

There is a place in Australia that serves some the most accurate vegan fish and chicken burgers ever! since you are a pescatarian you'd probably be impressed when you try a vegan fried fish burger

Yeah I will have to try it sometime may I ask what it is called?

[Kind Claw 407]

Are you in Australia? If so the place is called Lord Of The Fries the have franchises in Adelaide and Melbourne.
If you are from somewhere else then that's okay just google search for a vegan restaurant and give them a call asking if they do fish burgers

[Jedishy 3,548]

So I can't call myself a vegan or even a vegetarian. Probably never will. However, I acknowledge the ethical issues with meat eating even if mankind is a predator by nature. As such I have moved to lowering my meat consumption drastically. Further, I believe that if I want to eat meat I should pay the cost of taking the life myself so I do hunt ( unsuccessfully ) each season but as I have never bagged small game I won't move to a larger animal. If I can't hit small I dont deserve to go big

I do have a few questions for the group if I might. 

1 How do you synch a vegan or vegetarian ethic with facts like soy products destruction of rainforest environments in South America and the Amazon? Or worse, that anything that is modern electronics tends to come from mining and manufacturing processes that are far more harmful to the environment and animals then meat eating can ever be. 

Do you say that there is a line that you are willing to give up but those are beyond it? If so how is it better or worse then meat eating? Not judging just want to understand a differing point of view. 

 

My own view is that humans like any other predatory species are going to cause harm to other animals and the environment. We should acknowledge that fact and limit our damage where we can. Where we cant we should seek to at least once pay the cost ourselves. Be it hunting, raising and slaughtering the animal ourselves or milking the cow and making the cheese with our own hands. 

Finally, as we are likely never going to get rid of harmful practices totally we should move them towards as humane and sustainable as we are able. 

[Olly 1,011]

1 hour ago, Jedishy said:

 even if mankind is a predator by nature.

Humans are not a predator species by nature, we have always been and are omnivorous and opportunistic eaters. We have plenty of things to eat, and we can be quite healthy, even more healthy without eating meat. Eating meat is a choice for most people in the western world, and an unethical one- rest assured you should have no reservations. 

 

1 hour ago, Jedishy said:

My own view is that humans like any other predatory species are going to cause harm to other animals and the environment.

As we aren't a predatory species, harm humans cause doesn't come from being "predatory by nature" it's caused by our numbers and negligence. Which we have the ability to coarse-correct, even if it takes a long time. Humans have done lots of damage by being so numerous and greedy, that is the cause of the problem.

 

[Jedishy 3,548]

12 minutes ago, Olly said:

As we aren't a predatory species, harm humans cause doesn't come from being "predatory by nature" it's caused by our numbers and negligence. Which we have the ability to coarse-correct, even if it takes a long time. Humans have done lots of damage by being so numerous and greedy, that is the cause of the problem.

 

Yea we are " Predation: A form of symbiotic relationship between two organisms of unlike species in which one of them acts as predator that captures and feeds on the other organism that serves as the prey. " Source

. We are predator and prey and have been since we started using tools. We have been a top tier predator since we started hunting and forming bands of people to do so. 

 

[Olly 1,011]

1 hour ago, Jedishy said:

Yea we are " Predation: A form of symbiotic relationship between two organisms of unlike species in which one of them acts as predator that captures and feeds on the other organism that serves as the prey. " Source

. We are predator and prey and have been since we started using tools. We have been a top tier predator since we started hunting and forming bands of people to do so. 

 

Humans are not carnivores, we are as I said, omnivores and opportunists. We have hunted when we needed to, and foraged or farmed when we needed or could as well.  

You said "mankind is a predator by nature" which isn't true, and comes across as misleading. Humans have always survived by getting food where we can find it, and creating ways to make our own. You said:

"My own view is that humans like any other predatory species are going to cause harm to other animals and the environment. We should acknowledge that fact and limit our damage where we can."

This sounded like you were saying it's just human nature to cause harm to animals and the like. 

Edited November 3, 2018 by Olly

[Jedishy 3,548]

47 minutes ago, Olly said:

Humans are not carnivores, we are as I said, omnivores and opportunists. We have hunted when we needed to, and foraged or farmed when we needed or could as well.  

 

You do not need to be a carnivore to be a predator. Bears are predators and they are omnivores So yea we are predators just like the bear. We engage in predation we are predators. 

49 minutes ago, Olly said:

This sounded like you were saying it's just human nature to cause harm to animals and the like. 

Yea we take advantage where we find it. That means killing and shaping when it suites us. 

 

So we are predators by definition and we do by nature harm animal and environment when it's to our advantage. If you think we dont and can stop doing so I would love to see how we could stop using all oil based and animal based product. Which would mean most modern electronics and modern medical equipment. In short, we cant. Which is the point. Ever since we built a shelter and used fire we have started doing harm to the environment. Ever since we built tools to hunt and skin we have been predators. By virtue of what we are we do damage and we are never going to stop doing damage. We can make it as humane and minimal as possible. We can seek ways to make it sustainable. But eliminate it? Nope never going to happen without some advancement like a replicator. 

[Kind Claw 407]

Hey Everypony!

It's good to see you all having such a civil discussion once I am finished with my workout I'd be happy to join you

[Jedishy 3,548]

18 minutes ago, Kind Claw said:

It's good to see you all having such a civil discussion once I am finished with my workout I'd be happy to join you

I welcome your input. Fact is that I am not vegan or even vegetarian as my first post stated. But I do recognize morally we should seek to minimize harm and well vegans and vegetarians have some experience in that arena and its likely greater than my own. So I figure this is as good a place as any to learn a thing or two. 

[Kind Claw 407]

8 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

I welcome your input. Fact is that I am not vegan or even vegetarian as my first post stated. But I do recognize morally we should seek to minimize harm and well vegans and vegetarians have some experience in that arena and its likely greater than my own. So I figure this is as good a place as any to learn a thing or two. 

I'm glad you are here to learn a thing or two I hope that I can teach a little from my own experience and what I have learned from some pretty impressive ponies.

I'd like to mention how we humans are actually biomechanically similar to Equines!!!   Such similarities are how our jaws move side to side and back teeth are flat, perfect for grinding up vegetation we also lack the predatory teeth to kill prey when compared to bears, lions and wolves we have canines but they are too small.

one site in particular suggests we are frugivores meaning we are designed to eat only fruit, now don't get me wrong that sounds legit when you think about it but there is no way I'm giving up vegetables, nuts, grains, seeds, lentils, fungi ect. here is a comparison image from the site Veganbiologist.com 

 

[Jedishy 3,548]

3 minutes ago, Kind Claw said:

one site in particular suggests we are frugivores meaning we are designed to eat only fruit, now don't get me wrong that sounds legit when you think about it but there is no way I'm giving up vegetables, nuts, grains, seeds, lentils, fungi ect. here is a comparison image from the site Veganbiologist.com 

That is where I take issue because I can find data well everywhere to the contrary such as here. Humans are omnivores made to be opportunistic eaters. That means we can eat anything. Though in modern times we have tended towards a meat-heavy diet. As its one of the easier ways to get calories. Outside of heavy grain intake that is. As someone on a diet, I can tell you that beans or meats such as fish or chicken are my best way to avoid a grain-heavy diet which due to a family history of diabetes I have been instructed to move away from. 

Extra sources for proof of humans being omnivores:  

Listed as part of the ape family of Omnivore

Article on how meat might be vital to our evolution

Second article on omnivores and our evolution  

[Kind Claw 407]

3 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

That is where I take issue because I can find data well everywhere to the contrary such as here. Humans are omnivores made to be opportunistic eaters. That means we can eat anything. Though in modern times we have tended towards a meat-heavy diet. As its one of the easier ways to get calories. Outside of heavy grain intake that is. As someone on a diet, I can tell you that beans or meats such as fish or chicken are my best way to avoid a grain-heavy diet which due to a family history of diabetes I have been instructed to move away from. 

Extra sources for proof of humans being omnivores:  

Listed as part of the ape family of Omnivore

Article on how meat might be vital to our evolution

Second article on omnivores and our evolution  

That's interesting you mention diabetes, I have found studies on how eating animal products promotes diabetes in particular how animal fats bind to cells effectively blocking the cells ability to absorb insulin. here is a video by Dr Neil Bernard to explain made by the reputable Ted Talks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktQzM2IA-qU

[Kind Claw 407]

I'm off to bed now but will read your reply tomorrow morning as well as the articles you shared thanks for the info btw

[Kind Claw 407]

The article is titled "Sorry Vegans" How about a "Thank you Vegans" I noticed this article brings up the past in terms of human evolution as what I see as no more than an excuse to continue detrimental behaviour patterns. Now I won't argue that eating animal products influenced our evolution but using the past as an example to do something in the present is a slippery slope, after all murder and enslavement was perfectly fine in the past. Is it true we ate meat in the past it wasn't until recently that thanks to the industrial revolution that abundance was created and thanks to science we now know what plants to eat and how to fortify our foods to get not only enough to survive but also thrive. One could argue that eating a plant based diet is the next step not only in the evolution as a species but in becoming a more sustainable and healthy society.

 

[Olly 1,011]

On 11/3/2018 at 1:02 AM, Jedishy said:

You do not need to be a carnivore to be a predator. Bears are predators and they are omnivores So yea we are predators just like the bear. We engage in predation we are predators. 

I don't think you got what I was saying. I never denied that we can or have practiced being predatory, just that we aren't "by nature" as you said. If we were hard-wired to be predators, we'd be carnivores. "Predator" in this sense meaning one animal killing another to survive 

 

On 11/3/2018 at 1:02 AM, Jedishy said:

If you think we dont and can stop doing so I would love to see how we could stop using all oil based and animal based product. 

Many people do use very few if any animal based products, and it's perfectly possible. We make synthetic substitutes or use/eat alternative products all the time.

 

On 11/3/2018 at 1:02 AM, Jedishy said:

Ever since we built tools to hunt and skin we have been predators. By virtue of what we are we do damage and we are never going to stop doing damage. We can make it as humane and minimal as possible. We can seek ways to make it sustainable. But eliminate it? Nope never going to happen without some advancement like a replicator. 

When it comes to reducing our impact, we can potentially go quite far. Nobody's going to say that we can prevent any and all damage 100% or perfectly. But when talking about meat eating at least, we have all the power in the world to stop that altogether, at least in the western world. All you have to do is not eat meat, so that's quite feasible... it's just about who will decide to abstain from it 

[Kind Claw 407]

I'm going to try make another MLP V Meme will show it once it's done

[Kind Claw 407]

Here you all go!

[Kind Claw 407]

How is everypony doing! want the recipe for vegan chocolate protein moose?

 

[Dabmanz 2,139]

On 11/15/2018 at 11:39 AM, Kind Claw said:

How is everypony doing! want the recipe for vegan chocolate protein moose?

 

That sounds awesome.