Is Twilight becoming a princess considered sexist?

[Commander_PonyShep 349]

I once read a feminist article that criticized Equestria Girls for turning My Little Pony from an aversion of gender stereotypes, to that of a reinforcement, and it did likewise with Princess Twilight.

 

Click on the link to learn more: http://feminspire.com/equestria-girls-how-did-my-little-pony-go-so-so-wrong/

 

When you consider it, Twilight becoming an alicorn princess isn't all tea-parties and fancy dresses.  As princess, she technically came of age as more of a queen, built by Princess Celestia to unite all of Equestria under a banner of friendship.  So my answer is: Barely.  The word "princess" may sound more sexist and less powerful than the word "queen", but in Equestria, becoming a princess is almost the same thing as becoming a queen.

 

Also, with regard to Equestria Girls, the movie didn't even come out yet, and yet the writer of this blog article made many premature judgments.  As for me, my problem isn't the idea that Twilight is a high-school human girl; mostly, it's the fact that Twilight entered the mirror alone, as if her original friends became automatically useless compared to their humanized counterparts.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Commander_PonyShep

[Jadefire 2,796]

A lot of people keep throwing around the word "sexist" without understanding what actually is and isn't sexist. For example, there was large amounts of rage over the first image of Equestria Girls to appear on the internet and how sexist it was, without giving any actual reason why it was sexist. (Twilight wearing a dress isn't sexist. Twilight being skinny might be, but the show is stylized enough that the issue might be a moot point).

 

A lot of this popped up again for the EQG trailer, with people being outraged about sexism, when I personally don't see any sexism as of yet. Again, the Mane Six being humans are not sexist, them wearing dresses are not sexist, and them being in a high school is not sexist. Believe it or not, there are many teenage girls that wear dresses who also attend high school. What is sexist, however, would be things like the girls wearing skimpy outfits, heavy focus on romance and girl stuff as if they are the only things that matter in the world, girls being weak and deserve to be "rescued" or be "taken care of" by men and/or society, and the implication that being skinny and/or beautiful is more important than other things. I have seen no evidence that any of this is the case in the trailer alone.

 

I think part of the problem of EQG is what's in the trailer: Twilight and a bunch of Mane Six lookalikes are teenage girls in a high school, and a boy who is strongly implied to be a possible love interest makes an appearance. This kind of plot has been used in thousands of highly-sexist ways in the past, but people are making the (fallacious) jump that this plot is automatically sexist in itself, which is not actually the case.

 

TL;DR: In my opinion, there is not nearly enough evidence that Equestria Girls will be a sexist cliche high-school teen girl plot. There's a strong chance that that will be the case, but it will be impossible to confirm until the movie is released.

 

Addendum: as for Princess Twilight, my argument applies to that as well: we have no idea what her duties as princess will entail, so, while it's still possible that it will be tea parties and makeovers galore, it will be impossible to know whether she will fall into that cliche until Season 4 airs (or is leaked), and to automatically write it off otherwise is likewise close-minded.

[Commander_PonyShep 349]

Addendum: as for Princess Twilight, my argument applies to that as well: we have no idea what her duties as princess will entail, so, while it's still possible that it will be tea parties and makeovers galore, it will be impossible to know whether she will fall into that cliche until Season 4 airs (or is leaked), and to automatically write it off otherwise is likewise close-minded.

I know I've been beating that dead horse (no pun intended) on these message boards, but I read Twilight Sparkle and The Crystal Heart Spell.  Again, there was no mention of the girly stuff normally associated with becoming a princess, like dress-up and tea-parties.  On the contrary, the book was all (and I mean all) about Twilight trying to learn what it takes to become leader of Equestria, which to her was a challenge in and of itself.  The book ended with Twilight realizing that as leader, her job is to unite her fellow ponies as a single entity, rather than dominate them as Gilda the Griffon (yes, she was in that book, too) suggested.

 

Besides, back when I was angry, I wasn't concerned that Princess Twilight would be sexist.  On the contrary, however I thought it meant Twilight was more dominant, that she garnered all the power in the world, while her friends were left in the dust in-terms of power.  Right now, though, I'm over it, and realized that Twilight can use her power to unite her friends and countless other ponies in Equestria, rather than dominate them like Nightmare Moon, Discord, Queen Chrysalis, King Sombra, and Trixie tried to do.  However, it still didn't excuse the fact that I was once angry over the idea of a socially-awkward bookworm rising to power as a dominant force in Equestria, on the level of any male who would attain his own power, despite the title sounding as girly as "princess".

Edited May 27, 2013 by Commander_PonyShep

[Jadefire 2,796]

I know I've been beating that dead horse (no pun intended) on these message boards, but I read Twilight Sparkle and The Crystal Heart Spell.  Again, there was no mention of the girly stuff normally associated with becoming a princess, like dress-up and tea-parties.  On the contrary, the book was all (and I mean all) about Twilight trying to learn what it takes to become leader of Equestria, which to her was a challenge in and of itself.  The book ended with Twilight realizing that as leader, her job is to unite her fellow ponies as a single entity, rather than dominate them as Gilda the Griffon (yes, she was in that book, too) suggested.

 

Besides, back when I was angry, I wasn't concerned that Princess Twilight would be sexist.  On the contrary, however I thought it meant Twilight was more dominant, that she garnered all the power in the world, while her friends were left in the dust in-terms of power.  Right now, though, I'm over it, and realized that Twilight can use her power to unite her friends and countless other ponies in Equestria, rather than dominate them like Nightmare Moon, Discord, Queen Chrysalis, King Sombra, and Trixie tried to do.  However, it still didn't excuse the fact that I was once angry over the idea of a socially-awkward bookworm rising to power as a dominant force in Equestria, on the level of any male who would attain his own power, despite the title sounding as girly as "princess".

 

I felt like soapboxing a bit, but I do agree with everything you've posted on this page so far. x3

 

Personally, I feel that other bronies are being far too quick to judge given what little information we have.

[MadPointer 75]

Prince Blueblood and Shining Armor didn't have to undergo a plastic surgery to be qualified for being royalty. Miss America was promoting MMC which reinforces the idea that it's about the appearance.

[Oblivion 20,266]

I think your completely over thinking this whole thing. lets face it the show was originally intended for young little girls(although it turns out the show has plot elements that any age group can thoroughly enjoy). Anyways by making the show have more female lead characters than males it breaks that stereotypical gender barrier that so many shows today have, I mean kinda think about it. How many action movies do you see where the female is the main protagonist,Yea not to many(although it is starting to improve alot) Although one of the main reasons is because it's mainly focused on a younger male audience. Well in my humble opinion the same holds true for MLP. It gives young girls characters to look up to and breaks the gender barrier that males control everything in society. (Which if you look back through history you will find that females got treated pretty poorly)So what FiM is doing is basically just reversing those roles a little bit to appeal to a younger generation of females.

 

Well that's all i really got on the subject....Take it easy on me it was like 5 in the morning when i typed this.

[Commander_PonyShep 349]

Prince Blueblood and Shining Armor didn't have to undergo a plastic surgery to be qualified for being royalty. Miss America was promoting MMC which reinforces the idea that it's about the appearance.

Except it took more than appearances for Twilight to become an alicorn princess.  Yes, she received a pair of wings, but she was also given new, greater responsibilities that would've otherwise psychologically destroyed any other pony in Equestria, more so than even that tardy friendship report Twilight threw a tantrum over.  As princess, she now has the power to unite every pony under her leadership, most especially her five friends, and because half the pony populace's ideals might contrast with the other half's, it'll be a long, difficult battle for her to cater to more than one opposing party.

[PoniesPlease 365]

To me, sexism is segregating men and women, and differentiating between the two using widely known and completely false stereotypes. 

 

If Twilight becoming a princess is sexist, then surely MLP:FiM is sexist for not having as many male characters as there are female?

 

In other words, people blindly throw tags such as 'sexism', 'racism', etc. at anything that angers them. It's wrong to do this. 

[100 beasts kaidou 321]

Prince Blueblood and Shining Armor didn't have to undergo a plastic surgery to be qualified for being royalty. Miss America was promoting MMC which reinforces the idea that it's about the appearance.

I think that that Has more to do with sexism Againts Stallions. But hey since Anime Fangirls Can Ignore te sexism In Some Animes why cant we do the same.

 

On topic Princesses in Equestria are not the same as the ones in disney

[MadPointer 75]

@@Commander_PonyShep,

What her new responsibilities have to do with wings? I don't see how it's related.

What're the responsibilities anyway?

Can you explain where are getting the idea that princesshood is about leadership?

She didn't have to be a formal leader to take the lead in episodes such as Dragonshy and Swarm of the Century. Why does she need to be a princess in order to command her friends around?

Edited May 27, 2013 by MadPointer

[Commander_PonyShep 349]

@@Commander_PonyShep,

What her new responsibilities have to do with wings? I don't see how it's related.

What're the responsibilities anyway?

Can you explain where are getting the idea that princesshood is about leadership?

She didn't have to be a formal leader to take the lead in episodes such as Dragonshy and Swarm of the Century. Why does she need to be a princess in order to command her friends around?

Her wings were mostly ceremonial and symbolic, but her responsibilities is helping the pony populace put aside its differences and unite toward a common purpose.  Princesshood in the context of MLP is more about leadership than subservience to a male figure, and Princess Celestia was building up Twilight for this inevitable moment in her life, where she unites Equestria under her leadership.

 

As for Dragonshy and Swarm of the Century, they were all practice to prepare her for becoming a true leader.  Her time in Ponyville was designed to teach her everything about leadership, namely by uniting her friends and the Ponyville populace toward a common goal.  Granted, she still has more years of training to go, like when she had to unlock the Crystal Heart Spell by learning the traits of a true leader in that book, Twilight Sparkle and The Crystal Heart Spell.  However, she was training to become a leader throughout the past three seasons.

[MadPointer 75]

 

 

Her wings were mostly ceremonial and symbolic, but her responsibilities is helping the pony populace put aside its differences and unite toward a common purpose.

 

Ceremonial duties is exactly what princess do in the show. It involves being a guest of honor in such social events as Summer Sun Celebration, official visit in Swarm of the Century, Fall Weather Friends, Best Young Flyer competition, Grand Galloping Gala and the list goes on. It's all about ceremonion and Twilight wouldn't be interested in such activities besides she doesn't know how to behave properly in high society(see Sweet and Elite).

 

 

Princesshood in the context of MLP is more about leadership than subservience to a male figure, and Princess Celestia was building up Twilight for this inevitable moment in her life, where she unites Equestria under her leadership.

Can you bring some points from the show to back up the claim about leadership?

[Commander_PonyShep 349]

 

Ceremonial duties is exactly what princess do in the show. It involves being a guest of honor in such social events as Summer Sun Celebration, official visit in Swarm of the Century, Fall Weather Friends, Best Young Flyer competition, Grand Galloping Gala and the list goes on. It's all about ceremonion and Twilight wouldn't be interested in such activities besides she doesn't know how to behave properly in high society(see Sweet and Elite).

 

 

Can you bring some points from the show to back up the claim about leadership?

 

You remember at the beginning of The Crystal Empire Part 1, Celestia was writing documents?  It appeared that she was writing new policies for Equestria, like any other leader would.

 

I bet it's what Twilight will also spend the majority of her time doing at her library: Write policies on giant parchments.

[mycarhasaMoustache 449]

No it is not sexist in the slightest. Why dose the world have to pick fault with literally everything. Doctor who is racist Mlp is sexists why cant people just shut the buck up and just enjoy them and not pick fault with everything. People who say its sexist are exactly what is wrong with the world. SHES A CARTOON PONY THERE IS NOTHING MORE TOO IT THEN THAT!!!

[MadPointer 75]

 

 

You remember at the beginning of The Crystal Empire Part 1, Celestia was writing documents?  It appeared that she was writing new policies for Equestria, like any other leader would.

 

We have no idea what she was doing. For all we know, she could have been checking homework of her students. Anyway it's such a small detail that it could be easily missed.

 

 

I bet it's what Twilight will also spend the majority of her time doing at her library: Write policies on giant parchments.

 

It has been established she's interested in magic. There's a difference between science and politics.

[Genepool 224]

I have to say "maybe" because it goes into the stereotypical ideals when dealing with little girls.  What do you buy a little girl for presents? Answer several people think about: Dolls and a kitchen set/play set.  Others will say, "I'll ask the little girl what she wants. Or i'll see what she is 'into' right now." 

 

Really hoped for something more unique with S3E13 with a "destiny/fate" alteration because of the cutie mark swapping spell.  It would have been interesting to have Twilight morph into an alicorn because her cutie mark was swapped around with Cadence, Luna or Celestia's.  Instead, imho, it felt cheap.  I'll just come out and say that the whole episode felt cheap, and nothing more than one gigantic quota that DHX had to meet for Hasbro.  Still hope S4E1 can turn things around and give some weight behind the studious pony, now turned alicorn/princess. 

 

While DHX is full of very talented people, that talent can't do anything if its now being supressed, further and further, to meet quotas of product placement.  Personally, i'm expecting S4E1 to open up with Twilight happily living in a room in Canterlot Castle, surrounded by library books, and still humming, everything is going to be fine, before she flies out into the sky.  (Still hope it's all a ploy and the pony is still in the Crystal Empire at the door.  Want it to turn out that Sombra wanted Twilight's power and purposefully had her morph into an alicorn/princess and he was playing dumb/stupid this whole time as the unicorn is a very tactile schemer.)

[Dreadmallon 353]

   I personally don't see Equestria Girls or Twilight Sparkle becoming an alicorn as a sexist stereotype, but if it is, I'm honestly indifferent towards it.

[Commander_PonyShep 349]

I have to say "maybe" because it goes into the stereotypical ideals when dealing with little girls.  What do you buy a little girl for presents? Answer several people think about: Dolls and a kitchen set/play set.  Others will say, "I'll ask the little girl what she wants. Or i'll see what she is 'into' right now." 

 

Really hoped for something more unique with S3E13 with a "destiny/fate" alteration because of the cutie mark swapping spell.  It would have been interesting to have Twilight morph into an alicorn because her cutie mark was swapped around with Cadence, Luna or Celestia's.  Instead, imho, it felt cheap.  I'll just come out and say that the whole episode felt cheap, and nothing more than one gigantic quota that DHX had to meet for Hasbro.  Still hope S4E1 can turn things around and give some weight behind the studious pony, now turned alicorn/princess. 

 

While DHX is full of very talented people, that talent can't do anything if its now being supressed, further and further, to meet quotas of product placement.  Personally, i'm expecting S4E1 to open up with Twilight happily living in a room in Canterlot Castle, surrounded by library books, and still humming, everything is going to be fine, before she flies out into the sky.  (Still hope it's all a ploy and the pony is still in the Crystal Empire at the door.  Want it to turn out that Sombra wanted Twilight's power and purposefully had her morph into an alicorn/princess and he was playing dumb/stupid this whole time as the unicorn is a very tactile schemer.)

Twilight becoming an alicorn may be a result of executive meddling, but I don't think the same can be said for Twilight becoming a princess.  Lauren Faust originally intended for Twilight to become Celestia's successor, in other words a princess like her, just not an alicorn, either.  It's just that when Meghan McCarthy and her writing staff decided to make Lauren's intentions for Twilight a reality, Hasbro had to interfere in the writing process by telling them to turn Twilight into an alicorn to reflect both her new status as well as her evolution as a character.  After all, the last time the execs made the writers turn a unicorn princess into an alicorn, they did so with Princess Cadence, who was supposed to be a unicorn before becoming an alicorn.  Hell, Hasbro even kept the writers from calling Celestia a "queen" rather than a "princess," just because "queen" sounded too evil for children.

 

Also, I just wish I could change my vote from "maybe" to "no," because the way I described Princess Twilight made it sound like it wasn't sexist, which it wasn't, by the way.

 

To those wondering as to why I've reset the entire poll, I would like to apologize for doing so.  It's just that I wanted to recast my vote, and because there was no "recast" option on the polls, I thought resetting the poll would let me decide again, and lo and behold I still couldn't do it.

 

So again, I'm deeply sorry, and I asked the forum moderators permission to add a "recast" option for any poll created on this site, including this poll.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Commander_PonyShep

[Shanks 10,811]

It depends on how it is handled, so far it has been handled very poorly with a rushed season 3 finale that screams Mary Sue wish fulfillment at the top of its lungs but despite that there is far more we don't about twilicorn than what we actually do know. If the disturbing trend set forth in the season 3 finale continues than it will be very likely for this to become a sexist stereotype but if Hasbro gives the writers some breathing room to come up with some good reason for why this was done so soon and actually utilize the positives in this than it turn a bad situation into a good one.

[Love*Potion 575]

I would just remind everyone that is taking this too seriously that this is a cartoon. The sole intention of the show was to sell cute toys to little girls, so of course they are going to deliver to their target market. If any 5 year old girl considers the word 'princess' to be more sexist than the word 'queen', I doubt she would be the one that Hasbro is aiming to buy their product.

 

Now as the series goes on, the writers have obviously turned their attention from just girls to a much wider audience (hint: US). But the original meaning is still there: Princess ponies in a land of magical rainbows. I don't think ANYONE is blatently trying to be sexist, it is simply how you perceive it. But I personally think they are making a big deal out of nothing. I mean come on, is anyone really offended by it? (My apologies if you are.)

 

I just hope this doesn't turn into another "Derpy" fight about offending those who are mentally disabled. Again, I think it was a big deal for nothing 

[Anadu Kune 668]

Ok How in the world is twilight becoming a princess sexist? The term in mlp doesn't even share the same meaning as it does in other media. Unlike other princesses Twilight learned and performed amazing deeds before she became a princess. It wasn't a title she was guaranteed to have. Here lets just list what she did to earn being a princess.

1.) Continuous eager determined study and application of the magical arts under the direct Guidance of Celestia. In other words hard work.

2.)  Rediscovering the Elements of Harmony and channeling the energy defeating nightmare moon.

3.) Reminding all of the Mane six of who they truly were and defeating discord. 

4.) Was the only one to notice Cadences strange behavior leading Twilight to motivate Cadence to find an escape leading to the defeat of Queen Chrysalis. 

5.) Being the primary force that lead to finding the Crystal Heart. Displaying selflessness in sacrificing her own needs in the face of a crisis. 

6.) Fixing the Elements of harmony using a heightened understanding of their connection to the ponies and the magic of friendship. Then applying that knowledge to fix/complete the spell that caused it in the first place. Yeah that's right she found a solution to the spell that confounded Equestria's most famous, prestigious magic user. 

Forget princess name a queen that did as much to earn a title. People are referring to the typical disney princess label, but are ignoring the major difference between what the title actually means so far. Princesses in Equestria are not just royal, they aren't there just for show. The are extremely powerful magical beings that each represent their own extreme fundamental power in Equestria. Those being day/life, night/dreams, love/light, and friendship/ magic. Really up til now that's been a concern among fans, just how crazy powerful the other princesses are. In fact its an exact reversal of what is normally seen in media. Princesses earn their titles and are pretty much the highest power there is. The only princes we have seen were Blueblood who is granted his label by relation to Celestia and Shining Armor who married into the title. Heck in another reversal Shining armor has had to be saved by Twilight and Cadence Twice now. 

If they are talking about appearance, then I'm really missing the meaning. How are wings sexist? Twilight went had a physical change given to her through a magical process upon realizing and applying an extremely heightened knowledge. Sound familiar. Cutie marks are just a less extravagant similar process. A physical change happens upon realizing and applying a pony's talent. Really why haven't they tried to argue that MLP is sexist for having the ponies walk around with tramp stamps or butt tattoos. In fact we have three little girls whose aspirations are to get trap stamps or butt tattoos. 

Edited May 29, 2013 by Anadu Kune

[MadPointer 75]

@@Anadu Kune, 

 

Can you give some real life examples of rewards which change someone's status and physical appearance without person's consent? Even your bass can't rise your your pay without your signature. Are you going to argue that MLP:FIM is set in the medieval setting so that that ruler can do anything to their subjects?

 

1) Do you think scientists should be rewarded for their hard work by promoting them to celebrities on social events?

5) Why do you think it was about sacrifice while forgetting Applejack sacrificing herself in Spike at Your Service? Twilight wasn't even in immediate danger there. I also find it strange that she would try follow Celestia's arbitrary condition without questioning it. She used to be more skeptical.

6) We know that even writers can't tell the purpose of the spell which makes it meaningless.

 

You often write long and detailed posts but I still don't know how you see princess's duties and how you think they're treated. I showed multiple examples to demonstrate that they take part in ceremonial events and ponies bow to them which is similar to the real life princesses. The mane and Celestia six bowed to Twilicron. Do you remember the "Behold" song?

 

You can't easily say that the transformation is akin cutie marks, the episode showed it as something special and Rarity said that she didn't think it was even possible.

 

Miss America was promoting MMC which sends message that girls should be concered about their looks. Twilicorn's growing wings and a few inches reinforces idea that girls should care about their appearance to the point of doing a plastic surgery because otherwise they wouldn't get the wanted status. 

[Scootalove 10,684]

It's not actually sexist at all. Not all princesses are well very regal and uptight royal monarchy leaders, but I don't think in any way of Twilight becoming a princess being sexist in any way.

But if there are any ways of it being sexist, then all means enlighten me.

[Commander_PonyShep 349]

@@Anadu Kune, 

 

Can you give some real life examples of rewards which change someone's status and physical appearance without person's consent? Even your bass can't rise your your pay without your signature. Are you going to argue that MLP:FIM is set in the medieval setting so that that ruler can do anything to their subjects?

 

1) Do you think scientists should be rewarded for their hard work by promoting them to celebrities on social events?

5) Why do you think it was about sacrifice while forgetting Applejack sacrificing herself in Spike at Your Service? Twilight wasn't even in immediate danger there. I also find it strange that she would try follow Celestia's arbitrary condition without questioning it. She used to be more skeptical.

6) We know that even writers can't tell the purpose of the spell which makes it meaningless.

 

You often write long and detailed posts but I still don't know how you see princess's duties and how you think they're treated. I showed multiple examples to demonstrate that they take part in ceremonial events and ponies bow to them which is similar to the real life princesses. The mane and Celestia six bowed to Twilicron. Do you remember the "Behold" song?

 

You can't easily say that the transformation is akin cutie marks, the episode showed it as something special and Rarity said that she didn't think it was even possible.

 

Miss America was promoting MMC which sends message that girls should be concered about their looks. Twilicorn's growing wings and a few inches reinforces idea that girls should care about their appearance to the point of doing a plastic surgery because otherwise they wouldn't get the wanted status. 

Um, everyone?  There was no need to argue about Princess Twilight, and there was no more need for me to go soul searching in regard to my bronydom.

 

I've actually talked to the writer of the article on Gmail, Amanda Dulcin.  She said that she had no problem with Princess Twilight or what it represents to females, especially since Twilight became an alicorn princess as a reflection of her character-development, not for the sake of promoting good looks for little girls.  What she did have a problem with was the rushed nature, nothing more, nothing less; what could've been saved for the Series Finale, had to be pushed sooner rather than later to promote Princess Twilight toys quickly.

 

Long story short, she thought Twilight earned her status and wings, just not so early and with little time to finish her princess training.

 

Then, I told her about Twilight Sparkle and The Crystal Heart Spell, as well as its moral of the story.  She was at least glad it promoted equality and benevolent leadership.  She even held out hope for Equestria Girls, despite the initial trailer!  Afterward, she then said I'm entitled to my own opinion, and I can respect her own without having to agree with it.

 

So, why the arguments, when she gave me disclaimers galore about her article via Gmail?

Edited May 29, 2013 by Commander_PonyShep

[Shymantic 48]

No, Twilicorn does not seem sexist. She wasn't born a princess, she had to earn it. And that's a good message for young children -- and older ones, too.