Revenge Equals Justice?

[Alpha-neos 46]

Hi! Me again!
Curious question.
Can a character justify revenge as justice?
And if said character is the protagonist, does it make it ok?
Yeah, I'm a little stuck on that.
What do u think?

-a~N

 

Edit!!: I changed the title cause I typed the wrong thing, I hope before it didn't confuse anyone. >___>

Edited June 28, 2014 by Alpha-neos

[SFyr 1,982]

I think it depends on the culture's ideal towards 'justice', and how far the character/protagonist is going for in his revenge.

See, in our culture, justice usually meets transgressions with penalties, enforced service, or repeal of freedom. However, people often have the internal, harsher ideal of 'an eye for an eye', if not going beyond that for sake of spurned pride, or continued suffering--or negative views on the offender himself apart from their actions.

Quite simply, justice by cultural ideals tends to be a lot more lenient, while individual grudges falls into this usually-darker measuring block painted by bias. This usually goes beyond the more absolute justice established by culture.

 

If said character seeking revenge is the protagonist, I don't think that should realistically make it any better or worse at all. They should be held to the same standard.

When looking from the outside, a hero seeking to kill a man for killing his best friend/wolf/familiar/whatever is still a murderer, and a bit of a horrible person, hero or not.

 

Anyways... As to directly answer your question, yes, in my own opinion, revenge and justice can coincide, but VERY OFTEN not well. More often they would clash and be mutually exclusive.

True justice usually needs to be unbiased, and by nature revenge IS biased, so if one is motivated by the latter, it becomes hard to stick to the former.

The only way I see that really working well, is revenge simply being a motivation to ensure justice is carried out, being more about the transgressor not getting away, rather than seeing them punished per say.

Like... Say a robber baron/tycoon causes your entire family since you were a kid to struggle in poverty, eventually yet indirectly causing several close members to die from treatable or preventable causes. Blind revenge would say kill/crush their empire and lives and all that. Justice would be closer to revealing their shady dealings and exposing them the mighty hammer of the law.

Both can be motivated by revenge in my eyes, or some want of vengeance.

 

 

Regardless, please rarely if ever go the dead parents/revenge route. 

Edited June 25, 2014 by SFyr

[Evilshy 5,090]

I think it depends on a lot on circumstances. A lot of media has them being two related, but different things, with a hero being conflicted between getting revenge and wanting to kill the other guy, with his friends saying stuff like "killing him isn't justice, its revenge" and "your father wouldn't want you to be a killer" and all that cliche jazz.

 

There are also times when vigilante justice is the only thing that will work. Look at Taken, for example. Human traffickers are evil as shit and what they do is super illegal, but because of the corrupt government taking bribes, the law wouldn't do anything about it. Queue Liam Neeson's daughter getting kidnapped. Sure, his ultimate goal is to save her, but he makes a point of killing every gang member he encounters along the way. That's revenge, and that's vigilante justice, and were something like it to actually happen, I'd definitely applaud the guy for taking down a human trafficking ring, vigilante or no.

[Guest]

What people focus on: comment.

What if focus on:revenge equals to revenge.

Other peoples replies: elaborated and well thought.

My replie: You don't say?!

 

 

Nevertheless I'm not going to just point that out. Im gonna say that revenge isn't always justice. Obviously it depends on what happens, but most time revenge is taken as: do more to the other than he did to you. Therefore in this occasion I will say no. It isn't.

[IridscentNionios 1,420]

I think it's called "Vengeance". For some reason vengeance sounds different than revenge. Revenge is "An eye for an eye". "Vengeance" is payment for your crimes in the mind of the one seeking vengeance. I don't know... anyone care to explain the difference to me?

[Evilshy 5,090]

I think it's called "Vengeance". For some reason vengeance sounds different than revenge. Revenge is "An eye for an eye". "Vengeance" is payment for your crimes in the mind of the one seeking vengeance. I don't know... anyone care to explain the difference to me?

They are essentially the same thing, but "vengeance" generally refers more to the concept of revenge, while "revenge" is the revenge itself.

Say somebody punches you in the face, and then you punch them in the face. The punch would be you getting revenge, and afterword, you might say "vengeance is mine".

 

Also, in the original context, "an eye for an eye" wasn't a revenge thing, it was actually a law meant to enforce justice. It meant that the punishment for breaking certain laws could not exceed what was done in the original crime. So if you stole $20, you could only have $20 taken from you as punishment (after the original $20 was given back, of course).

 

Through history, it's been twisted into meaning "if somebody wrongs you, you are justified in wronging them" which is not a good way to live your life, even if that is occasionally true.

[IridscentNionios 1,420]

 

 

Also, in the original context, "an eye for an eye" wasn't a revenge thing, it was actually a law meant to enforce justice. It meant that the punishment for breaking certain laws could not exceed what was done in the original crime. So if you stole $20, you could only have $20 taken from you as punishment (after the original $20 was given back, of course). Through history, it's been twisted into meaning "if somebody wrongs you, you are justified in wronging them" which is not a good way to live your life, even if that is occasionally true.

Well that's the thing... i was speaking with modern terms rather than what it meant back in the old days. In any case is the concept of vengeance justified? 

[Malinter 3,064]

"Any eye for an eye leaves everyone blind"

 

thats pretty much the logic behind revenge. Some of the longest hatreds in history are sustained by revenge.

 

revenge is personal justice. right and wrong don't exist for someone hell bent on revenge.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Shire Pony Malinter

[SCS 7,537]

One important note is that the protagonist doesn't have to be the good guy. The protagonist is just the main character of the story. The fact that they are a protagonist actually has no bearing on their moral quality.

 

In regard to whether or not a character could justify revenge as justice, I feel that would depend on the context of the situation. When writing a story, a substantial amount of justification and believability would need to be communicated to the reader in order to justify an act of revenge as true justice. 

 

However, this would depend on what manner of justice you are attempting to convey. This would likely not work well for a Lawful Good construct, but it might work very well for a Byronic hero.

[Alpha-neos 46]

I think it depends on the culture's ideal towards 'justice', and how far the character/protagonist is going for in his revenge.

See, in our culture, justice usually meets transgressions with penalties, enforced service, or repeal of freedom. However, people often have the internal, harsher ideal of 'an eye for an eye', if not going beyond that for sake of spurned pride, or continued suffering--or negative views on the offender himself apart from their actions.

Quite simply, justice by cultural ideals tends to be a lot more lenient, while individual grudges falls into this usually-darker measuring block painted by bias. This usually goes beyond the more absolute justice established by culture.

 

If said character seeking revenge is the protagonist, I don't think that should realistically make it any better or worse at all. They should be held to the same standard.

When looking from the outside, a hero seeking to kill a man for killing his best friend/wolf/familiar/whatever is still a murderer, and a bit of a horrible person, hero or not.

 

Anyways... As to directly answer your question, yes, in my own opinion, revenge and justice can coincide, but VERY OFTEN not well. More often they would clash and be mutually exclusive.

True justice usually needs to be unbiased, and by nature revenge IS biased, so if one is motivated by the latter, it becomes hard to stick to the former.

The only way I see that really working well, is revenge simply being a motivation to ensure justice is carried out, being more about the transgressor not getting away, rather than seeing them punished per say.

Like... Say a robber baron/tycoon causes your entire family since you were a kid to struggle in poverty, eventually yet indirectly causing several close members to die from treatable or preventable causes. Blind revenge would say kill/crush their empire and lives and all that. Justice would be closer to revealing their shady dealings and exposing them the mighty hammer of the law.

Both can be motivated by revenge in my eyes, or some want of vengeance.

 

 

Regardless, please rarely if ever go the dead parents/revenge route. 

 

Thanks a bunch!

You know I might be having second thoughts for using for the protagonist's motivation.

I think it sounds lazy.

It'd be better if I use it as plot device.

Also, thanks for pointing out the difference between revenge and vengeance. ^  ^

 

I think it depends on a lot on circumstances. A lot of media has them being two related, but different things, with a hero being conflicted between getting revenge and wanting to kill the other guy, with his friends saying stuff like "killing him isn't justice, its revenge" and "your father wouldn't want you to be a killer" and all that cliche jazz.

 

There are also times when vigilante justice is the only thing that will work. Look at Taken, for example. Human traffickers are evil as shit and what they do is super illegal, but because of the corrupt government taking bribes, the law wouldn't do anything about it. Queue Liam Neeson's daughter getting kidnapped. Sure, his ultimate goal is to save her, but he makes a point of killing every gang member he encounters along the way. That's revenge, and that's vigilante justice, and were something like it to actually happen, I'd definitely applaud the guy for taking down a human trafficking ring, vigilante or no.

 

Wait. If I had to use this as a motivation.

What could I even add? It looks like most of it has been done before. o - o

 

What people focus on: comment.

What if focus on:revenge equals to revenge.

Other peoples replies: elaborated and well thought.

My replie: You don't say?!

 

 

Nevertheless I'm not going to just point that out. Im gonna say that revenge isn't always justice. Obviously it depends on what happens, but most time revenge is taken as: do more to the other than he did to you. Therefore in this occasion I will say no. It isn't.

 

Crap. I screwed up.

The title was supposed to be "Revenge Equals Justice?"

I must fix this!

Also, you have a point.

I guess it all depends if the one doing it doesn't use violence but something more non-violent but clever.

If that makes sense. o - o

 

Well that's the thing... i was speaking with modern terms rather than what it meant back in the old days. In any case is the concept of vengeance justified? 

 

It depends on how it's executed.

With Violence? Or with non-violence?

Guess it depends on that person.

 

"Any eye for an eye leaves everyone blind"

 

thats pretty much the logic behind revenge. Some of the longest hatreds in history are sustained by revenge.

 

revenge is personal justice. right and wrong don't exist for someone hell bent on revenge.

 

Sooo, is there some good example of revenge?

 

One important note is that the protagonist doesn't have to be the good guy. The protagonist is just the main character of the story. The fact that they are a protagonist actually has no bearing on their moral quality.

 

In regard to whether or not a character could justify revenge as justice, I feel that would depend on the context of the situation. When writing a story, a substantial amount of justification and believability would need to be communicated to the reader in order to justify an act of revenge as true justice. 

 

However, this would depend on what manner of justice you are attempting to convey. This would likely not work well for a Lawful Good construct, but it might work very well for a Byronic hero.

 

What's a Bryonic Hero?

Edited June 28, 2014 by Alpha-neos

[Nerdy Luigi 2,065]

Revenge is not really justice.

 

Vengeance is a little bit farfetched in the end of it all.

 

Still better than our current system of justice.

[jeray2000 111]

Could you specify justice for me, as at this point I'm unsure if you mean justice according to the law, justice according to 'eye for an eye', justice so that the criminal suffers equally to the victim, or justice so that the criminal has learnt his/her lesson.

[Alpha-neos 46]

Revenge is not really justice.

 

Vengeance is a little bit farfetched in the end of it all.

 

Still better than our current system of justice.

 

Wait, what's wrong with our justice system?

 

Could you specify justice for me, as at this point I'm unsure if you mean justice according to the law, justice according to 'eye for an eye', justice so that the criminal suffers equally to the victim, or justice so that the criminal has learnt his/her lesson.

 

I'd say all of the above, but I think the last three are what I'm talking about.

[jeray2000 111]

Wait, what's wrong with our justice system?

 

 

I'd say all of the above, but I think the last three are what I'm talking about.

Now that I'm trying to write it out, I believe I would also need more detail on the revenge, as revenge can mean just about anything. It could mean murdering the person and his/her family, or could mean setting his/her alarm clock an hour early. So, what would the criminal's crime be, and what would the revenge be, is what I'm asking for.

[Alpha-neos 46]

Now that I'm trying to write it out, I believe I would also need more detail on the revenge, as revenge can mean just about anything. It could mean murdering the person and his/her family, or could mean setting his/her alarm clock an hour early. So, what would the criminal's crime be, and what would the revenge be, is what I'm asking for.

 

Oooooh! Well, I'm mostly taking about any kind.

Just not something too simple or too extreme.

A revenge that a person can justify as the right to do basically.

The crime could be anything.

Nothing simple or too extreme though.

I hope that makes sense. ^__^

Edited June 28, 2014 by Alpha-neos

[jeray2000 111]

Oooooh! Well, I'm mostly taking about any kind.

Just not something too simple or too extreme.

A revenge that a person can justify as the right to do basically.

The crime could be anything.

Nothing simple or too extreme though.

I hope that makes sense. ^__^

I believe I understand. So, let us say the crime is murder of ones parents, and the revenge is the murder of the murderer's parents.

1. Not justice at all. Murder is always illegal, even if it is for revenge. (I'm assuming we are working according to Modern First World Nation laws, not some Dark Ages laws.) To get justice through this method you would need to arrange a fair trial for the murderer.

2. Yes, this is justice. You take away the same thing the murderer took from you.

3. This depends on how close you were to your parents and how close the murderer was from his/her parents. Depending on those factors, it could be incredible crueler than the murderer deserved or not nearly cruel enough.

4. This depends on the criminal's psyche. If it worked so that the criminal realizes how much pain s/he brought his/her victims and therefore gave up murdering, then it is justice. If the murderer takes this as proof that the world is evil and everyone needs to be murdered, or doesn't care, it is not justice.

[Alpha-neos 46]

I believe I understand. So, let us say the crime is murder of ones parents, and the revenge is the murder of the murderer's parents.

1. Not justice at all. Murder is always illegal, even if it is for revenge. (I'm assuming we are working according to Modern First World Nation laws, not some Dark Ages laws.) To get justice through this method you would need to arrange a fair trial for the murderer.

2. Yes, this is justice. You take away the same thing the murderer took from you.

3. This depends on how close you were to your parents and how close the murderer was from his/her parents. Depending on those factors, it could be incredible crueler than the murderer deserved or not nearly cruel enough.

4. This depends on the criminal's psyche. If it worked so that the criminal realizes how much pain s/he brought his/her victims and therefore gave up murdering, then it is justice. If the murderer takes this as proof that the world is evil and everyone needs to be murdered, or doesn't care, it is not justice.

 

Huh....I never thought about that.

You've made some great points. Thanks!

[aoEAF2FBvC0MIo2Q 3,673]

Solving violence with more violence makes so much sense is so normal that you got your work cut out for you. May as well try and make it look as cool as possible. I guess you could say all the superhero stories testifies to how much writers attempt to make it look as cool as possible.

 

Pay it no mind. Just griping about one of society's perpetuated nonsense.

[SCS 7,537]

What's a Bryonic Hero?

 

A Byronic hero has deep passion and ideology but is also deeply flawed in certain ways. They also have zero regard for the social norm and act according to their own moral compass.

 

They are deep and thought-provoking characters, and their inner conflicts are romanticized.

[crisahys 149]

I think that if revenge and justice are going to go hand-in-hand, the revenge has the equal the wrong that was done against the victim getting revenge. For example: Somepony decides to break into your house and steal your tv, then you decide for a good revenge plot to break into his/her house and steal their tv, and if you found out that they sold your tv, you sell his/hers.

[Alpha-neos 46]

Solving violence with more violence makes so much sense is so normal that you got your work cut out for you. May as well try and make it look as cool as possible. I guess you could say all the superhero stories testifies to how much writers attempt to make it look as cool as possible.

 

Pay it no mind. Just griping about one of society's perpetuated nonsense.

 

Heh, I think society already makes no sense as much as life. XD

If that makes sense, heh.

 

 

 

A Byronic hero has deep passion and ideology but is also deeply flawed in certain ways. They also have zero regard for the social norm and act according to their own moral compass.

 

They are deep and thought-provoking characters, and their inner conflicts are romanticized.

 

I need to look more that then.

Seems like something I can use someday.

 

 

I think that if revenge and justice are going to go hand-in-hand, the revenge has the equal the wrong that was done against the victim getting revenge. For example: Somepony decides to break into your house and steal your tv, then you decide for a good revenge plot to break into his/her house and steal their tv, and if you found out that they sold your tv, you sell his/hers.

Twilight Insane Plan.gif

 

Steal a tv? XD

Wait...Do ponies even have tv? O____o

Edited July 7, 2014 by Alpha-neos

[LightningMana 146]

Revenge is a ugly disease that turns the venger into a larger monster than the actual monster needing "justice served" by revenge

[Archi the Atmomancer 564]

I think it depends, if the revenge is propulsion proportionate to the crime committed it could be considered "just" in the sense of fair.

 

As an example that has already been given, someone steals your TV, so in return you steal their TV, and it balances out.

 

Just because it's "fair" though doesn't make out right. Killing someone for, say, killing a close family member just ends up in more death which is never good, no matter the victim. Revenge just perpetuates conflict.

 

It's a bit like (and this is a crap example) Romeo and Juliet. It's never explained why the Capulets and Montagues hate each other but it's likely one family slighted the other, so the other family decided to get back at the first somehow, and they ended up in a cycle of revenge.

 

In conclusion, while revenge is in some respects fairer than the legal system, it's certainly not good as it doesn't necessarily solve the problem; in fact, it is likely to compound it.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Archi the Atmomancer

[Alpha-neos 46]

Revenge is a ugly disease that turns the venger into a larger monster than the actual monster needing "justice served" by revenge

 

If its a disease, whats the cure?

 

 

I think it depends, if the revenge is propulsion proportionate to the crime committed it could be considered "just" in the sense of fair.

 

As an example that has already been given, someone steals your TV, so in return you steal their TV, and it balances out.

 

Just because it's "fair" though doesn't make out right. Killing someone for, say, killing a close family member just ends up in more death which is never good, no matter the victim. Revenge just perpetuates conflict.

 

It's a bit like (and this is a crap example) Romeo and Juliet. It's never explained why the Capulets and Montagues hate each other but it's likely one family slighted the other, so the other family decided to get back at the first somehow, and they ended up in a cycle of revenge.

 

In conclusion, while revenge is in some respects fairer than the legal system, it's certainly not good as it doesn't necessarily solve the problem; in fact, it is likely to compound it.

 

I always thought they did something stupid and betrayed each other trust.

[LightningMana 146]

If its a disease, whats the cure?

 

 

Forgiveness and understanding~ in some cases, law decides~

 

(I probably have been watching too much He-Man) xDD