How Dark do you want FiM to be?

[ideaguy1998 15]

Oh yeah, how would you react if this were in the show:

Long ago, Direx was an angel who made stars of great beauty, but wanted to surpass his capabilities.  One day, he tried to make a star, but accidentally incorporated somepony's soul.  But the star looked more beautiful than before.  The soul suffered the intense heat of the star, but it looked so beautiful, Direx overlooked the pain he was causing.

Blinded by his urges, he recklessly went from world to world to kill ponies and harvest their souls and create even more masterpieces, no matter what ponies would suffer.

Tau Sunflare, the god above even Celestia and Luna and their mother, confronted Direx.  After reason failed, Tau Sunflare was forced to imprison Direx.  Still persistent, Direx did one of the most painful things ever: split his soul.  Each half reincarnated into two beings.  One became a unicorn and grew to be the dictator of the Crystal Empire.  The other grew up to be the most feared Changeling Queen ever.

[Cloud Strife 928]

I think how dark it is right now fits perfectly with the tone that it's supposed to be. After all, this is a show for kids - wouldn't want to make it too dark.

 

I think that the more dark stuff that would appeal to an older audience should stay within fanworks.

[Wulfgar Von Heltzer 42]

As I just said in the other thread about this, the show is consistently light-hearted and silly, adding serious, dark tones to it would clash HORRIBLY. It shouldn't be any darker. I'm shocked at how many people don't understand that you can't have clashing moods in a story.

[Dark Qiviut 22,464]

After all, this is a show for kids - wouldn't want to make it too dark.

"It's a kids' show" kills your opinion right here. There have been many great family shows with very dark backgrounds. Courage the Cowardly Dog is at least twenty times darker than what we have in FIM, and Hey Arnold isn't afraid to get quite dark every now and then. FIM's tone, on the other hand, is relatively safe because of Hasbro's treatment, but even that didn't stop DHX from putting in serious subjects and moments multiple times.

 

This leads me to you:

the show is consistently light-hearted and silly, adding serious, dark tones to it would clash HORRIBLY. It shouldn't be any darker

FIM may be silly, but it's not as innocent as you or everyone else here thinks. There have been so many moments where FIM's tone shifted towards dark, quality notwithstanding.

1. A Bird in the Hoof: Philomena catching fire.
2. Party of One: Pinkie becoming crazy and depressed at the end of Act 2 and deep into Act 3.
3. Return of Harmony: Twilight losing her color and quitting her fight for harmony and friendship.
4. Lesson Zero: Twilight's whole ordeal is black comedy through and through.
5. Hurricane Fluttershy: Fluttershy's imagery of stage fright becoming a crippling phobia.
6. Sleepless in Ponyville: Scootaloo waking up from her nightmare in Act 3.
7. Magical Mystery Cure: During "I've Got to Find a Way," Ponyville turned gray and depressing.
8. Flight to the Finish: Self-explanatory.
9. Rarity Takes Manehattan: Suri's blatant plagiarism greatly impacting Rarity's creative viewpoint and friendship.
10. Testing Testing 1, 2, 3: It may be the funniest episode in season four, but it tackled a very sensitive issue about how people learn differently.

And these are just some examples.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Dark Qiviut

[Moved to Elsewhere 11,331]

"It's a kids' show" kills your opinion right here. There have been many great family shows with very dark backgrounds. Courage the Cowardly Dog is at least twenty times darker than what we have in FIM, and Hey Arnold isn't afraid to get quite dark every now and then. FIM's tone, on the other hand, is relatively safe because of Hasbro's treatment, but even that didn't stop DHX from putting in serious subjects and moments multiple times.

 

This leads me to you:

FIM may be silly, but it's not as innocent as you or everyone else here thinks. There have been so many moments where FIM's tone shifted towards dark, quality notwithstanding.

• A Bird in the Hoof: Philomena catching fire.
• Party of One: Pinkie becoming crazy and depressed at the end of Act 2 and deep into Act 3.
• Return of Harmony: Twilight losing her color and quitting her fight for harmony and friendship.
• Lesson Zero: Twilight's whole ordeal is black comedy through and through.
• Hurricane Fluttershy: Fluttershy's imagery of stage fright becoming a crippling phobia.
• Sleepless in Ponyville: Scootaloo waking up from her nightmare in Act 3.
• Magical Mystery Cure: During "I've Got to Find a Way," Ponyville turned gray and depressing.
• Flight to the Finish: Self-explanatory.
• Rarity Takes Manehattan: Suri's blatant plagiarism greatly impacting Rarity's creative viewpoint and friendship.
• Testing Testing 1, 2, 3: It may be the funniest episode in season four, but it tackled a very sensitive issue about how people learn differently.

And these are just some examples.

Another one to add is most of the second part of Twilight's Kingdom. I don't even have to explain that.

[PsychedelicPony 440]

I like seeing the dark parts when it comes to epic parts like finales and premiers and such, but I watch MLP to smile and for the fun aspect so I wouldn't want it getting that much darker if any when it comes to the middle parts of the season. The darkest maybe is some serious issues that characters resolve between each other that end up with a happy resolve

[Gatekeeper Giggle 2,902]

At least this dark:

Seriously though, I think it's fine the way it is. Let's not mess with success! 

[Guest]

Personally, I like MLP as it is already. So far, the show has handled the darker moments incredibly well, they're also often counterbalanced with humour and/or positivity. The real world is dark enough, no need to make MLP darker IMO. MLP is a great form of escapism for me.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Guest

[Wulfgar Von Heltzer 42]

FIM may be silly, but it's not as innocent as you or everyone else here thinks. There have been so many moments where FIM's tone shifted towards dark, quality notwithstanding.

1. A Bird in the Hoof: Philomena catching fire.
2. Party of One: Pinkie becoming crazy and depressed at the end of Act 2 and deep into Act 3.
3. Return of Harmony: Twilight losing her color and quitting her fight for harmony and friendship.
4. Lesson Zero: Twilight's whole ordeal is black comedy through and through.
5. Hurricane Fluttershy: Fluttershy's imagery of stage fright becoming a crippling phobia.
6. Sleepless in Ponyville: Scootaloo waking up from her nightmare in Act 3.
7. Magical Mystery Cure: During "I've Got to Find a Way," Ponyville turned gray and depressing.
8. Flight to the Finish: Self-explanatory.
9. Rarity Takes Manehattan: Suri's blatant plagiarism greatly impacting Rarity's creative viewpoint and friendship.
10. Testing Testing 1, 2, 3: It may be the funniest episode in season four, but it tackled a very sensitive issue about how people learn differently.

And these are just some examples.

 

I don't think you understand what dark really is. I'm talking death, murder, horror (actual horror), gore, rape, tragedy, war, genocide, severe mental trauma. All of what you listed are extremely tame, something bad happening does not equal dark, that's called conflict, which is necessary in any story. You may argue that the moment where Philomena bursting into flames and turning to ash was dark, but within moments, she was reborn, preventing it from being a truly dark moment (there wasn't even any blood or gore, or graphic immolation).

 

Dark would be Death Note, Hannibal Lector, Game of Thrones, etc., Fallout 3, Law and Order, etc. Or, a dark comedy example, the Pony .Mov series (particularly the infamous Shed.mov). Tho MLP occasionally takes a darker than usual route, it never, at any point, goes all the way with it.

 

I know you're arguing in support of a darker MLP, but you and everyone else who want that SERIOUSLY need to understand that ANY good story cannot have conflicting moods going on. Some work together, others don't. You can't have a serious story and then suddenly throw some comedy in there, or have comedy in a horror or sad story. MLP could only have dark if it was a comedy (because of the existence of black humor), based on the silly looking character designs that make it impossible to take seriously. But even then, it would've had to have started out that way. Because of the fact that it didn't, you can't suddenly change the mood of a series without it being too jarring to the audience.

[Princess-Sunbutt 268]

It doesnt need to be too dark, we arent making a dark night movie or anything. Though I would like if there where a couple things few and far in between like that one part in S4E2 where it looked like Celestia had died, not too dark but its good enough for the show. 

[Dark Qiviut 22,464]

@@Wulfgar Von Heltzer, Actually, the one who needs to learn what dark means is yourself, because your viewpoint of dark is narrow and stereotypical. Darkness in a show isn't exclusive to the topics you listed. "Dark" also means how the writers address certain issues.

 

Let's take a look at some I listed.

1. Party of One: Pinkie becomes lost, crazy, and depressed, and the way she addresses it is very creepy. How? The color is very bleak. Pinkie's eyes cross quite a bit. The background changes and sometimes becomes surreal. She talks to imaginary rock friends, and none of what she says make any sense.
2. Lesson Zero: A perfect example of dark comedy. The creepy imagery of Twilight being laughed at. Twilight's crazy faces throughout the episode. Plenty of Ponyville fighting for Smarty-Pants. A lot of this was done for humor, but executed sensitively to not make it mocking.
3. A Bird in the Hoof: No matter how much you slice it, it doesn't change the fact that Philomena's death is dark. How? Because the mood suddenly changed and wasn't innocent anymore. It wasn't long, but it is a dark moment.
4. Magical Mystery Cure: The ReMane Five's whole livelihoods had their lives switched. Whatever they knew about themselves the day before was gone because their lives were supposedly fixated on their cutie mark. As a result, everyone's lives became miserable. Twilight felt very guilty. Sweet Apple Acres became barren. Ponyville bickered at Fluttershy's expense. Applejack closed up shop. Rainbow Dash and Rarity felt hopeless. What was bright and cheerful turned sad, overcast, and gray to symbolize the tone change.

And two other examples:

1. Twilight's Kingdom: @ alluded to this, and I'll exemplify one instance. Tirek destroyed her home, and the whole mood changed. What was once bright and comical with some danger on the side became bleak, red, and urgent. The stakes escalated very quickly.
2. The Crystal Empire: One big moment was after Twilight opened the door. Twilight's biggest fear came true. Even though it was only an illusion, the tone felt very real.

I know you're arguing in support of a darker MLP

Don't put words in my mouth. What I'm saying is you claim the show is silly and innocent. While that's true, it's ridiculous to claim the show hasn't had serious/dark moments. They're not be at the scale compared to other shows, but it doesn't change the fact that they're there.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Dark Qiviut

[Jeric 46,866]

that ANY good story cannot have conflicting moods going on

 

 

Ever read Hamlet, Stranger in a Strange Land, the Good Earth, To Kill a Mockingbird, The Stand? 

Ever seen Full Metal Jacket & Return of the Jedi?

 

A masterpiece can have conflicting moods. 

[Cloud Strife 928]

"It's a kids' show" kills your opinion right here. There have been many great family shows with very dark backgrounds. Courage the Cowardly Dog is at least twenty times darker than what we have in FIM, and Hey Arnold isn't afraid to get quite dark every now and then. FIM's tone, on the other hand, is relatively safe because of Hasbro's treatment, but even that didn't stop DHX from putting in serious subjects and moments multiple times.

 

This leads me to you:

FIM may be silly, but it's not as innocent as you or everyone else here thinks. There have been so many moments where FIM's tone shifted towards dark, quality notwithstanding.

1. A Bird in the Hoof: Philomena catching fire.
2. Party of One: Pinkie becoming crazy and depressed at the end of Act 2 and deep into Act 3.
3. Return of Harmony: Twilight losing her color and quitting her fight for harmony and friendship.
4. Lesson Zero: Twilight's whole ordeal is black comedy through and through.
5. Hurricane Fluttershy: Fluttershy's imagery of stage fright becoming a crippling phobia.
6. Sleepless in Ponyville: Scootaloo waking up from her nightmare in Act 3.
7. Magical Mystery Cure: During "I've Got to Find a Way," Ponyville turned gray and depressing.
8. Flight to the Finish: Self-explanatory.
9. Rarity Takes Manehattan: Suri's blatant plagiarism greatly impacting Rarity's creative viewpoint and friendship.
10. Testing Testing 1, 2, 3: It may be the funniest episode in season four, but it tackled a very sensitive issue about how people learn differently.

And these are just some examples.

 

You know, I thought that that whole "kids' show" thing was going to be a buzz word, but I didn't expect it to be the only thing you would fixate on the post, to the point that you would say I was making an argument that I wasn't. I think I need to elaborate here.

 

Firstly, I never said that MLP should not cover dark topics, nor did I say that they haven't. I didn't say that it was an innocent show, either. Perhaps that one sentence may have given you that impression, but that's not what I meant by it. Let me quote my first sentence, because that was the main point of my post, not the "kids' show" thing:

 

 

 

I think how dark it is right now fits perfectly with the tone that it's supposed to be. 

 

This was the main point that I was trying to argue. It wasn't that I think MLP should never cover dark topics. It wasn't that I think MLP needs to be sunshine and rainbows. It was that, as it is now, MLP is already dark enough. All of the examples that you provided already show that for me.

 

Now that that's out of the way, I'm going to address an elephant in the room that was brought up in this topic too, and I've seen brought up multiple times: the comparison between MLP and Courage the Cowardly Dog. It seems like, without fail, that cartoon gets brought up whenever there's an argument about the tone that MLP should have. Here's my personal take on it:

 

Courage the Cowardly Dog may be a "kids' show", but it's not the same kind of kids' show as MLP is. Courage is not aimed primarily at little kids; that's not its target demographic. Yes, it aired on Cartoon Network, but it didn't air on any broadcasts that were designed for little kids. Courage the Cowardly Dog's intended audience, to me, appears to be toward preteens and young teens - the same target demographic as Ned's Declassified School Survival Guide. Those dark themes are not going to bother preteens and young teens much because by that period, they're already exploring those dark topics. Courage is a wonderful show, I'm not going to argue against that. But it doesn't have the same goal in mind as MLP does. When I say "kids' show", I'm not talking about this preteen/young teen range. I'm talking about little girls, age five to nine. MLP is not designed to be shocking, or cover up dark and controversial topics with a funny, lovable protagonist. It's supposed to provide young girls with role models to look up to and to realize that they can embrace being a girl without thinking of it as something shameful. It's supposed to be a show that doesn't talk down to its audience, but at the same time still addresses it. Try to lower down the pitchforks; I'm not arguing "kids' show" is an excuse to get away with shoddy writing, but I personally feel that an overly dark tone would not fit for a show like that, that's primarily designed to take a Slice of Life approach and teach valuable lessons.

 

There's a lot of fantastical plots that it's covered over the times it's run, and I think those are enough. I'm not watching MLP because I want huge lore building, or super heroes, or mystical beings; those are fun additions to the show but that's not what makes it so great. It's the character development and interaction that makes it the show that it is, and saturating it with these dark tones, I believe, will defeat that purpose.

[Steel Accord 6,660]

I think they are at a good place right now.

 

Really "dark" isn't as much dependent on content as it is on tone. I mean, plenty of Schwarzenegger or Indiana Jones movies have lots of violence and death, but that doesn't make them dark. In contrast, Coraline or the Halloween Tree are both almost gruelingly dark but they're never explicitly violent.

 

So I think the question should be split in two:

 

"Are you happy with the tone of the show between seriousness and levity?"

 

"What mature content do you think can be talked about on the show?"

 

Really, they've covered a lot of bases already. Fair treatment of the disabled and the disabled themselves feeling empowered. (Flight to the Finish) Sacrifice of effort and time for a goal not being the same as compromising one's morals in pursuit of the same. (Wonderbolt Academy) Redemption being a two way street. (Discord's entire arc.)

 

So no, I don't want the show to try and be Batman: The Animated Series or even Teen Titans because that itself would compromise what made the show great in the first place. There's a big difference between mature topics and fetishized bleakness.

 

It's like growing old enough to use swear words. You can, but you don't have to.

[Wulfgar Von Heltzer 42]

@@Wulfgar Von Heltzer, Actually, the one who needs to learn what dark means is yourself, because your viewpoint of dark is narrow and stereotypical. Darkness in a show isn't exclusive to the topics you listed. "Dark" also means how the writers address certain issues.

 

Let's take a look at some I listed.

1. Party of One: Pinkie becomes lost, crazy, and depressed, and the way she addresses it is very creepy. How? The color is very bleak. Pinkie's eyes cross quite a bit. The background changes and sometimes becomes surreal. She talks to imaginary rock friends, and none of what she says make any sense.
2. Lesson Zero: A perfect example of dark comedy. The creepy imagery of Twilight being laughed at. Twilight's crazy faces throughout the episode. Plenty of Ponyville fighting for Smarty-Pants. A lot of this was done for humor, but executed sensitively to not make it mocking.
3. A Bird in the Hoof: No matter how much you slice it, it doesn't change the fact that Philomena's death is dark. How? Because the mood suddenly changed and wasn't innocent anymore. It wasn't long, but it is a dark moment.
4. Magical Mystery Cure: The ReMane Five's whole livelihoods had their lives switched. Whatever they knew about themselves the day before was gone because their lives were supposedly fixated on their cutie mark. As a result, everyone's lives became miserable. Twilight felt very guilty. Sweet Apple Acres became barren. Ponyville bickered at Fluttershy's expense. Applejack closed up shop. Rainbow Dash and Rarity felt hopeless. What was bright and cheerful turned sad, overcast, and gray to symbolize the tone change.

And two other examples:

1. Twilight's Kingdom: @ alluded to this, and I'll exemplify one instance. Tirek destroyed her home, and the whole mood changed. What was once bright and comical with some danger on the side became bleak, red, and urgent. The stakes escalated very quickly.
2. The Crystal Empire: One big moment was after Twilight opened the door. Twilight's biggest fear came true. Even though it was only an illusion, the tone felt very real.

Don't put words in my mouth. What I'm saying is you claim the show is silly and innocent. While that's true, it's ridiculous to claim the show hasn't had serious/dark moments. They're not be at the scale compared to other shows, but it doesn't change the fact that they're there.

 

Well I hardly see that as dark. When I think of dark, I think of mature themes, stuff you wouldn't put in a kids show. The things you mentioned are so tame that they don't break the mood of the show. Honestly, they don't even phase me. And that's why they were able to get away with adding those moments.They're darker than usual, but barely. Just barely.

 

And while yes, the show has it's serious moments, rarely has it gone super serious like in Hurricane Fluttershy. It mixes in serious moments with silly, it manages to balance it by almost never being too serious. So to answer the question of the thread, MLP is dark enough, anymore would be a bad idea. It get's it just right (well, except when it pulls a Hurricane Fluttershy, episodes I think shouldn't happen because of the extreme shift in mood

 

Ever read Hamlet, Stranger in a Strange Land, the Good Earth, To Kill a Mockingbird, The Stand? 

Ever seen Full Metal Jacket & Return of the Jedi?

 

A masterpiece can have conflicting moods. 

If you want comedy in a serious story, you shouldn't go very far with the seriousness. I think in order for that to work, it needs to balance it. There's a point where it's too serious and you can't throw in comedy without it being jarring. Horror, on the other hand? Never, ever have humor in a horror, for they rely on being consistently suspenseful in order to be scary. Comedy completely obliterates that.

[Jeric 46,866]

 

 

Comedy completely obliterates that.

 

Poltergeist , Evil Dead 2, Nightmare on Elm Street, Gremlins. 

[Wulfgar Von Heltzer 42]

Poltergeist , Evil Dead 2, Nightmare on Elm Street, Gremlins. 

 

I haven't watched/played any of those but I'm just going to assume they're bad if they're trying to mix comedy and horror. Unless you consider jump-scares to be good horror. I don't. A legitimate horror story/game has a consistent mood of dread, suspense, eeriness, and occasional terror. You must to maintain that air. If, at ANY point, anything humorous happens (either intentional or unintentional), that mood is gone, and you're never getting it back. All you can do after that is rely on jump scares, which won't salvage it.

 

 

Edited October 22, 2014 by Wulfgar Von Heltzer

[Arican 100]

So dark I can't see. can we have Discord break out in to song and dance?

[Wild Star 141]

id like it to be more serious, not exactly darker-believe it or not they are different.

[Jeric 46,866]

I haven't watched/played any of those but I'm just going to assume they're bad if they're trying to mix comedy and horror. Unless you consider jump-scares to be good horror. I don't. A legitimate horror story/game has a consistent mood of dread, suspense, eeriness, and occasional terror. You must to maintain that air. If, at ANY point, anything humorous happens (either intentional or unintentional), that mood is gone, and you're never getting it back. All you can do after that is rely on jump scares, which won't salvage it.

 

 

None of the movies I mentioned are considered bad. In the end you definition of Dark is subjective, and your desire to keep a singular mood is personal taste. It is not represented in the writing community at large, flies against the elements of style, and is not taught in any accredited MFA course.

 

There is no must.

[Twilight The Creator 298]

Blood, sex, drugs and gangsters.

[Moved to Elsewhere 11,331]

I haven't watched/played any of those but I'm just going to assume they're bad if they're trying to mix comedy and horror. Unless you consider jump-scares to be good horror. I don't. A legitimate horror story/game has a consistent mood of dread, suspense, eeriness, and occasional terror. You must to maintain that air. If, at ANY point, anything humorous happens (either intentional or unintentional), that mood is gone, and you're never getting it back. All you can do after that is rely on jump scares, which won't salvage it.

 

 

You know, assuming they're bad because they mix comedy and horror without even watching/playing any of them is like judging a book by its cover. Also, you want good of mix of comedy and horror. Look no closer to Courage the Cowardly Dog.

[Ashen Pathfinder 16,162]

Well, I would appreciate some mature themes that kids can connect with and learn from, but it doesn't have to be too dark.

 

As much as I love shows like Courage the Cowardly Dog and Digimon (Digimon pretty much died on screen, specifically the friendly ones as the first season went on), to me those represent different types of shows that can't exactly be compared with FiM. I'm not saying that FiM can't be dark, but I don't think it has to be in the same vein as other shows.

 

For example, let's think of Static Shock. In most episodes, Static seems like your normal teenager doing normal teenage things, who also happens to be a super hero. One of the best episodes of any series that I saw was when they brought up the death of his mother, and how he had to come to terms to accept that. Not only was it dark, but it was VERY powerful and VERY moving. That single episodes pretty much changes my entire view on the series.

 

Similarly, FiM can tackle certain things that would be considered as dark. People have mentioned AJ's parents, but I think Scootaloo's issue with flight is a perfect example of this. IMO, that is some fairly dark territory the show entered into, and I think it handled it quite well.

 

In the end, I would like to see the show handle some more mature themes, but again, not in the same vein as other shows being mentioned.

[Zygen 6,066]

Honestly, I think the show should stay exactly the same level of dark as it is already, or rather the limit should be the same more or less.

 

It's not that I would dislike the show if it went to any darker territory, but it would change the reasons why I enjoy the show to an extent, since right now I quite like the unique charm it has of being very happy and cheery in contrast to the plenty of other darker shows out there. 

 

Would it succeed as a darker show? Probably so, but it would leave the place it is in right now in terms of shows, and instead of being a happy cheery show overall that does have darker turns which are dealt with in a very interesting and well thought out way, it would become a lot more like other shows. 

 

And is this a bad thing? Not necessarily no, but again, it would just be different. It would have the same charm. Would it be bad? Would it have no charm? No, but it would be different. 

 

I'm not entirely against the show getting darker, but if it does, it shouldn't be very much, I think the S4 finale was pretty close to, if not at the limit of dark I think should be in MLP(Seriously, Tirek kinda scared me to be honest to an extent ;p.) 

 

And also, I like the way that MLP does in fact deal with darker stuff, it's just got this special way of dealing with it, I can't really place my finger on it, but I like it.

 

Of course, part of me like others wouldn't mind seeing some things addressed in the show, that are already heavily implied, like AJ's parent's death, but another part of me likes the more implied way it deals with darker things, and how some things are left to fan interpretation. 

 

So I think my overall thoughts is that I like the show overall pretty well at the level of dark it is currently, if it were to get any darker, I wouldn't mind, but I don't think I want it to get too much darker, just a little maybe at most. Otherwise it risks losing it's unique charm, not becoming bad again, just losing it's unique charm, if that makes sense.

 

That is just my opinion of course though.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Zygen

[Tetrakemy 221]

Anyone remember in Full metal alchemist when that little girl is crying " Why are they putting my daddy in the ground, why are they putting all that dirt on daddy?" " If they bury him, he wont be able to do all his work!" "No! He has a lot of work to do! Stop putting dirt on my daddy! DAADDYYYY!!"

 

It needs to GO there. Just like Full metal Alchemist did.