Male Ponies' Jobs/Roles and Gender Equality

[Zekromic 1,054]

I don't think there are gender equality issues in Equestria, just considering the target demographic and the female only focus in previous gen, it's very logical they'll keep focusing more on mares than stallions, so it would seem mares take most of the higher jobs. The reason for that, it's probably for young girls to have more productive and positive role models, something that's either lacking, or not having enough focus in real life. They only enforce girls to be famous or total sluts to be someone

 

Side note: among the founders of Equestria, Commander Hurricane was the only stallion according to the Journal of the Two Sisters

Edited August 31, 2014 by Zekromic

[Queen Majesty 2]

Do you guys ever desire more dynamic male roles within the show? Males seem to fall into two categories:

Nameless, voiceless menial labor support or transitory romantic interests.

[Abia 258]

It’s a show directed mainly (originally) girls, so it’s only natural that’s what the main characters would be. If we’re discussing Equestrian society itself…

 

A pony’s job is determined by their special talent and cutie mark. There’s little to do with gender.

• Big Mac works on the farm just as Applejack, Granny Smith, and Apple Bloom, and everyone else who’s lived in that barn did or still does.
• Shining Armor is the captain of the Royal Guard.
• Braeburn and Sheriff Silverstar are two males who have a huge part in managing Appleloosa.
• Mr. and Mrs. Cake are equals.
• Pipsqueak was a prominent and likable character, if only for one episode (plus his appearance in “Twilight Time”).
• Flim and Flam are far less repeatedly antagonistic than Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon.
• Featherweight is not only a male but a runty male, yet he became editor in chief of the school newspaper.
• Fancy Pants is one of the most widely liked and respected nobleponies in Canterlot.
• Trenderhoof is a famous travel writer and played no antagonistic role in the show.
• Hoity Toity’s right up there with Photo Finish and Sapphire Shores.
• Filthy Rich is filthy rich.
• Cheese Sandwich is a renowned party planner.
• Doctor Horse and Doctor Sneeze are both male doctors.

And then there are the background, non/rarely-speaking ponies…

• Crescent Moon participated in the Young Flyers Competition.
• Plenty of male and female ponies worked in the Rainbow Weather Factory.
• Bill Neigh is a schoolteacher or mathematician or something.
• Ceasar looks wealthy.

…there are plenty of well-off male characters in the show. Just because they don’t have a prominent role in the show doesn’t mean they have poor lives as Equestrians.

[Ziggy + Angel + Rain 11,302]

I think part of the reason I'm not at all bothered is because I don't particularly care about the majority of male characters on the show; Spike and Discord being two exceptions.  And perhaps it's difficult to be too irked by the relegation of male characters to lesser roles and positions of lesser power because I am not defined by my gender and do not personally feel cheated or wronged.  Also, we've seen patriarchy and male-centric (or male-aimed) television series and films a billion times.  I like that the ladies are at the forefront of this one, and shooting for a visible gender equality in the show would upset a formula and balance (or imbalance, rather xD ) that I actually appreciate.

 

And if Spike were "permitted" to grow up, we could see a repeat of "Secret of My Excess" where he makes off with a comparatively teeny Rarity.  Or he'd have to leave Ponyville due to his inconvenient size and uninhibited grabby behavior.  Spike essentially restored himself back to baby-sized Spike; he made a sort-of choice, consciously or otherwise.  The right one.  Just one of several reasons I actually like his character.

[Wishing Star 27]

lol I understand completely as im on that post aswell accept I can call myself feminist but im more equalist meaning im for pure equality no matter who we are or where we are from or even what we look like. Maybe I came across as close to extreme but im not its just its a massive subject. I would give my own life if it meant equality for everybody.

 

Also we are villified as bronies all the time anyway because we like a cartoon. People dont want to know a lot of the time.

Hm... you raise a good point. Do we need a new term to replace "Feminist?" Something that doesn't sound like it's just another kind of extreme?

[chaos rains 190]

hing Star" post="3051972" timestamp="1409585679"]Hm... you raise a good point. Do we need a new term to replace "Feminist?" Something that doesn't sound like it's just another kind of extreme?

 

nah its not the name its just like bronies its what people view as feminist that needs to change but me personally I like equalist better as thats how I describe myself and it sounds like im after more than just getting rid of the notorious gender rolse which have plagued our lives for centuries. On this I agree there could be better male characters but im happy with the ladies being the stars or even if it was like guys who are more concious and less im a badass type atleast show some real male emotion. Will smith does it good for example I am legend where he bursts into tears and has a very powerful breakdown in the store with the dummies he pretends are human as to get by. Robin williams is another where he shows some powerful emotion in both good morning vietnam and bicentinial man. Women need better representation where as men need to be shown as human and not sex crazed muscle bound badasses. What I mean is way too much misrepresentation which I have said in the feminist thread aswell. Anyway main point is its perception thats needing a good make over not quite the name.

[Zekromic 1,054]

Hm... you raise a good point. Do we need a new term to replace "Feminist?" Something that doesn't sound like it's just another kind of extreme?

Now that I think about it, the disproportional amount of females vs males shown in the show, they want to reinforce more positive female role models. You know, since they are pretty much lacking in other shows and real life (there are way more negative female role models these days). that's probably why we see more mares with big jobs than stallions 

[chaos rains 190]

Now that I think about it, the disproportional amount of females vs males shown in the show, they want to reinforce more positive female role models. You know, since they are pretty much lacking in other shows and real life (there are way more negative female role models these days). that's probably why we see more mares with big jobs than stallions 

 

Exactly its the kind of thing we need to promote equality of both genders and if im right the times are changing quite fast as we see more female roles like divergence and by the looks of it lucy. Them among other movies. Lets hope this is the direction we are going because without equality we are just like our ancestors who believed in slavery and women as being only good for cleaning and cooking. This is the new age and we must put our differences aside or what is the point in anything?

[Jennabun 1,579]

I always get kind of uncomfortable when people start complaining about the lack of male representation and the lack of well-rounded male characters in MLP. I always have a hard time wording why it makes me so uncomfortable, but I'm going to try to explain myself anyway.

 

When analyzing this show and the obviously female-centered plot, what people need to realize is that the alienation that some men might feel when watching a female-centered show is a mere taste of what women experience on a daily basis with almost all the other shows that exist. I kind of appreciate MLP because, for once, I'm seeing a society where women seem to have a vast amount of power and influence. Having a successful show where women are in the spotlight is a huge political statement, especially in a world where women are largely still trivialized.

 

It's true that, as the OP points out, that the male characters in MLP aren't fully explored. They are usually background characters with little speaking time or minor characters who fill a specific purpose for an episode or two and then disappear. If this was a widespread cultural trend across most of the media, this would certainly be worrisome. However, the trivialization of male characters is not a widespread trend; it's the exception to the widespread trend. MLP is one out of a mere handful of cartoons where men are in the background the main female characters are glorified doing typically-masculine activities. The vast majority of the time when it comes to the media, the women are in the background and the men are portrayed more positively.

 

I think MLP is structured the way it is (women in the spotlight, men in the background) on purpose. It turns the archetypical cartoon world on its head. Instead of a world where men are always the superheroes, bread-winners, and dynamic protagonists, it shows them in a typically "feminine" role: the sidekicks, the supporters, the love interests, etc. It's done to make you think. It's done as a critique of society. It's done to show young girls that they can be their own heroes, even though most shows tell them otherwise.

 

Though it seems "unequal" to say so: I don't really want male characters to be more in the spotlight when it comes to MLP. That negates the purpose of the show. Women should be able to have the spotlight in a show without people's knee-jerk reaction like "what about the men!?" especially since it is a show primarily made for young girls. I think that, if people are really concerned about gender equality, we should focus on pointing out the blatant, omnipresent misogyny in the rest of the media instead of critiquing a show like MLP which is actively trying to challenge misogynistic culture.

 

However, I also do think there could be subtle improvements to the show to promote a more equal society. I think it would be cool to see some royal guards who are women. I would also like to see more women in labor roles (besides Applejack). Adding some downright evil female villains would be amazing as well. All of these changes would provide more female diversity as well as make it clear that men are not the only people who can be physically strong, capable of evil, etc....

 

It's good to be critical of the media, including MLP.  But overall, MLP does a very good job with providing us well-rounded, dynamic, interesting female characters in a world where female characters are largely seen as background trinkets, sexual objects, or flat stereotypes. For that reason, as a feminist, this show is one of my favorite shows. I'm happy to say that this is a show that I would feel comfortable showing to my future children of any gender because I feel like it does such a great job at promoting positive messages about friendship that all genders can relate to.

[Wishing Star 27]

 

 

However, I also do think there could be subtle improvements to the show to promote a more equal society. I think it would be cool to see some royal guards who are women. I would also like to see more women in labor roles (besides Applejack). Adding some downright evil female villains would be amazing as well. All of these changes would provide more female diversity as well as make it clear that men are not the only people who can be physically strong, capable of evil, etc....

Hear, hear! Thanks for your point of view! 

[Wind Chaser 4,768]

I really have no trouble with the show being here for female empowerment, and at the same time I think that Shining Armor and Big Mac are strong enough male characters. The problem is that the writers need to take more care when writing male characters and avoid making an excess of jokes at their expense to avoid making the show seem misandric.

 

I mention I have no problem with a message of female empowerment, but that must not come at the expense of males. I agree that the genders should be treated as equal in most respects, nothing more or less.

 

The dynamic of the show is fine the way it is, with the main exceptions of Spike, Snips, and Snails.

 

For one, Spike's rampant butt-ending of jokes needs to be stopped. His arrested and inconsistent character development sticks out like a tumor against these well-developed, identifiable characters who are great role models. A character at his position in the show's universe craves exploration. What's it like being a dragon in a pony's world? What is it like to never get a cutie mark? Is it possible for him to ever grow up without decimating Ponyville and succumbing to the negative influences of greed? What does he want from life? Is he satisfied with where he is or would he like to move on?

 

Snips and Snails, I believe, should be removed from the series. Their very existence, like the abuse of Spike as a character, perpetuates a double-standard within the show. They only existed as a plot device in their first appearance in "Boast Busters" and despite subsequent appearances, have no personality other than being stereotypical spineless lackeys. Their names even evoke an old rhyme that itself portrays a sense of female superiority and perpetuation of the gender divide. What is most infuriating is that Derpy was once censored from this show while nothing was ever considered to be done about these two, who are arguably more offensive.

 

The whole problem is that more care needs to be taken in writing male characters. For one, this show has an outstanding reputation as quality entertainment for young girls. For another, this show has managed to attract a male audience unlike its predecessors, including boys. This show should not leverage its status to get away with portraying males negatively. It could give impressionable young girls the wrong image of boys and it could also give impressionable young boys the wrong image about themselves.

 

Those changes could uphold both the quality of the show and its standing on this issue. In the future, they just have to take a little more care when they do these things, stop, and think about the implications.

[Silver Letter 1,832]

 

 

They could give a more positive message with both being equal.

Yes but that would require work and as suggested, the writers might not want to bother with doing that just to make a more fleshed out and interesting fictional world.

[Nulln 755]

Let me start by saying, I'd love to have a show where the roles were reversed.  Sadly, mlp is absolute equality.  The men are allowed absolute freedom, there's just less focus on them, since the show is aimed at girls.  

• Big Mac - barely speaks, manual labor only.  The whole Apple family does manual labor, it is their farm and their job, and typically the job of earth ponies in general.  The girls all do manual labor as well.  
• Flim and Flam - practically villans, sleazy con men that get what they deserve.  Chrysalis was a female who also conned the ponies.  She suffered a fate worse than Flim and Flam.  They just went off to the next town, and even came back to ponyville with everyone welcoming them.
• Snip and Snails - uncoordinated, easily manipulated, blissfully unaware of their own failures.  Silver Spoon is just as easily manipulated, and so was Babs.  Except they did it while knowing what they were doing was wrong.
• Prince Blueblood - high status, but he's a jerk. There are plenty of high status jerky female ponies.

 

• Shining Armor - probably the strongest male character in the show, but always secondary to Cadence. His primary role is loving, supporting, and being saved by her.  Wow, that sounds familiar from real life XD I don't see what there is to complain about with the one story ever of the damsel in distress being able to save herself and her knight in shining armor.
• Spike - forced to stay a baby because his female friends/providers/captors (we don't even know how they got his egg in the first place) would rather he remain obedient and manageable instead of completing a natural life cycle.  Spike IS a baby.  No one is forcing him to not age.  He obviously doesn't have any captors, since Twilight even let him go to be with the other dragons when he wanted to.  He chose to come back to live with the ponies on his own.
• Finally my favorite: "Over a Barrel" Season 1 Episode 21 - in the first few seconds we see four male ponies pulling a train carrying the Mane 6. (I have looked for more train-pulling scenes, this seems to be the only one.   ).  That is their job.  They chose to do that, probably because they were extra strong ponies.  It would be the equivalent of human rickshaw pullers.

I wouldn't be bothered by any of this if the females were given the same treatment. The females are given the same treatment. 

Also all small-time service jobs in the show are dominated by males from taxi-pulling to waiting tables. This is especially discouraging because it reinforces the negative stigma of those jobs having lesser value along with female supremacy.  The spa ponies are female.  The fashion designer ponies are usually female.  The nurses are female, the doctors are male.  I don't see how having a male doing a job would mean it has lesser value.  Transportation and waiting are services and luxuries.  They're as important as the need for those services are.  Nothing wrong with female supremacy.

Edited September 1, 2014 by ScumCandy

[cuteycindyhoney 13,307]

 

• Spike - forced to stay a baby because his female friends/providers/captors (we don't even know how they got his egg in the first place) would rather he remain obedient and manageable instead of completing a natural life cycle

Where did you come up with that? From what I've seen, Dragons have hugely lengthy lifespans. He rapidly grew in one episode due to greed, but that doesn't say he won't grow naturally over the course of centuries. Besides, we DO know where he originated. Twilight's entrance exam for Celestia's magic school was to hatch a dragon egg. She managed it after being startled by Rainbow Dash's very first sonic rainboom. She also showed her true destiny when the pure omnipotent power of her unleashed magic threatened to destroy Canterlot and had to be contained by Celestia herself. Spike has become, not a slave, but Twilight's little brother. He looks up to her as a big sister. Am I the only fan that can see that they love each other?.

[chaos rains 190]

Let me start by saying, I'd love to have a show where the roles were reversed.  Sadly, mlp is absolute equality.  The men are allowed absolute freedom, there's just less focus on them, since the show is aimed at girls.  

 

• Big Mac - barely speaks, manual labor only.  The whole Apple family does manual labor, it is their farm and their job, and typically the job of earth ponies in general.  The girls all do manual labor as well.  
• Flim and Flam - practically villans, sleazy con men that get what they deserve.  Chrysalis was a female who also conned the ponies.  She suffered a fate worse than Flim and Flam.  They just went off to the next town, and even came back to ponyville with everyone welcoming them.
• Snip and Snails - uncoordinated, easily manipulated, blissfully unaware of their own failures.  Silver Spoon is just as easily manipulated, and so was Babs.  Except they did it while knowing what they were doing was wrong.
• Prince Blueblood - high status, but he's a jerk. There are plenty of high status female ponies.

 

• Shining Armor - probably the strongest male character in the show, but always secondary to Cadence. His primary role is loving, supporting, and being saved by her.  Wow, that sounds familiar from real life XD I don't see what there is to complain about with the one story ever of the damsel in distress being able to save herself and her knight in shining armor.
• Spike - forced to stay a baby because his female friends/providers/captors (we don't even know how they got his egg in the first place) would rather he remain obedient and manageable instead of completing a natural life cycle.  Spike IS a baby.  No one is forcing him to not age.  He obviously doesn't have any captors, since Twilight even let him go to be with the other dragons when he wanted to.  He chose to come back to live with the ponies on his own.
• Finally my favorite: "Over a Barrel" Season 1 Episode 21 - in the first few seconds we see four male ponies pulling a train carrying the Mane 6. (I have looked for more train-pulling scenes, this seems to be the only one.   ).  That is their job.  They chose to do that, probably because they were extra strong ponies.  It would be the equivalent of human rickshaw pullers.

I wouldn't be bothered by any of this if the females were given the same treatment. The females are given the same treatment. 

Also all small-time service jobs in the show are dominated by males from taxi-pulling to waiting tables. This is especially discouraging because it reinforces the negative stigma of those jobs having lesser value along with female supremacy.  The spa ponies are female.  The fashion designer ponies are usually female.  The nurses are female, the doctors are male.  I don't see how having a male doing a job would mean it has lesser value.  Transportation and waiting are services and luxuries.  They're as important as the need for those services are.  Nothing wrong with female supremacy.

 

the only issue would be when women or men even both in some cases end up trying to prove each other to be so much lesser. I dont see any intention of this in mlp and its partly why I love the show and im a 25 yo male. Women have every right to show they can be as strong as us guys and why because guys have a habbit of making the mistake in thinking women are objects of obsession and are weaker than them and no not all guys but too many none the less

[Wishing Star 27]

Where did you come up with that? From what I've seen, Dragons have hugely lengthy lifespans. He rapidly grew in one episode due to greed, but that doesn't say he won't grow naturally over the course of centuries. Besides, we DO know where he originated. Twilight's entrance exam for Celestia's magic school was to hatch a dragon egg. She managed it after being startled by Rainbow Dash's very first sonic rainboom. She also showed her true destiny when the pure omnipotent power of her unleashed magic threatened to destroy Canterlot and had to be contained by Celestia herself. Spike has become, not a slave, but Twilight's little brother. He looks up to her as a big sister. Am I the only fan that can see that they love each other?.

I stand corrected about his growth, I mis-remembered Zecora's explanation of that. 

About his egg, I've always been curious about how the ponies got his egg to begin with. Does the school regularly raid dragon nests for their exams? Do they have a dragon breeding program? Or a foster dragon program? I know the relationships between different species in MLP is usually pretty friendly, like the cows that live on Sweet Apple Acres. It's just too easy to interpret the ponies as humans, in which case using the egg of a sentient being for an exam and subsequently adopting without any mention of it's parentage seems wrong. 

I agree that Twilight and Spike love each other, but that doesn't mean she's always aware of his feelings, if only because she tends to get overly wrapped in her own projects.

[chaos rains 190]

I stand corrected about his growth, I mis-remembered Zecora's explanation of that. 

About his egg, I've always been curious about how the ponies got his egg to begin with. Does the school regularly raid dragon nests for their exams? Do they have a dragon breeding program? Or a foster dragon program? I know the relationships between different species in MLP is usually pretty friendly, like the cows that live on Sweet Apple Acres. It's just too easy to interpret the ponies as humans, in which case using the egg of a sentient being for an exam and subsequently adopting without any mention of it's parentage seems wrong. 

I agree that Twilight and Spike love each other, but that doesn't mean she's always aware of his feelings, if only because she tends to get overly wrapped in her own projects.

 

according to twi she has nonidea and nor can she find lore on dragons not a single thing which is why she lets him go. She states nobody has studied close enough. Also dragons are a fearsome race in equestria so its understandable and highly likely spike was found and maybe will discover who he is later. Oh and im sure big mac or some other ponies may become more frequent as its like with discord. Lets just see how things play out but not get carried away if males dont get better roles as it is a female driven show after all lets just love and tolerate it for what it is.

:-)