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[Buck Testa 5,505]

@BuckTesta

 

Your point is a fair one. But the show tells us ALICORNS are special. Take the hoof feilds and the mccolts. When they see Twilight one of them remarks "Say, your an alicorn!" Or something like that. Second, all the alicorns as we know them are princesses. If every pony is a princess it gets hectic. Third, how do we know you didn't have a hissy fit? >

Okay maaaybe I had a teeny tiny little one... maaaybe 

 

And yes, Alicorns are special in the same way diplomats or royalty are special. HOWEVER they aren't All Powerful immortal deities that should be instantly labeled Mary Sue upon sight. Dear Celestia I hate that phrase "mary sue", at this point its just a meaningless phrase to describe something you don't like 

[Metemponychosis 1,261]

 

 

And here we have the Alicorn hate train. Honestly I don't understand why people bother watching a show they get so up in arms about. The second another alicorns shows up Everybody loses there mind like its the end of everything you know and love. I love making head canon as much as the next bloke but great Celestia people need to chill the heck out when theirs gets shattered. I had this theory about Cutie marks that went on for days with references and the whole nine yards and it was destroyed in the span of an episode. Notice how I DIDN'T have a total hissy fit over it. Ultimately Head canons are only supposed to be place holders until the show answers those questions themselves. If the answer the show gives isn't the same as your answer then GO WRITE a FANFIC about it or something for Celestia's sake.    So what if she is an Alicorn! Here's a thought; Instead of thinking that it "contradicts canon" it instead REVEALS canon that you didn't know before? Like adding a new piece to the puzzle? When a scientist has something contradict his theory, he scraps the theory and he forms a new one based on the evidence given. Head canons should work the same way, if you don't you are just going to get frustrated to the point of not even enjoying the entertainment. And if you aren't enjoying it, what's the point of watching it?!    People lament when others leave a fandom but its just the natural order of things, they go on to enjoy something else thats new and shinier until that wears out. 

 First of all... Not liking something is different from hating it.

 

Second, this whole comment sounds like the inverse variation of "stop liking what I don't". It's a shut up tactic. Don't do that. My fellow watcher of cartoon ponies, this is THE place to have this conversation. Some of us actually are here to read to other people's opinions on the stuff and can have their minds changed.

 

Third... What does not liking something from the show has to do with headcanon? Arguing that the show is bastardizing it's concepts is a legitimate conversation to be had. Specially when we remember that it isn't perfect and writers can miss their mark for a variety of reasons, and people have different opinions on what that mark is.

 

 

And fourth: because I don't like how Flurry Heart looks, doesn't mean that I hate the show and can't watch it anymore. Specially when the episode can come and change a lot of preconceptions about the character.

[Buck Testa 5,505]

 First of all... Not liking something is different from hating it.

 

Second, this whole comment sounds like the inverse variation of "stop liking what I don't". It's a shut up tactic. Don't do that. My fellow watcher of cartoon ponies, this is THE place to have this conversation. Some of us actually are here to read to other people's opinions on the stuff and can have their minds changed.

 

Third... What does not liking something from the show has to do with headcanon? Arguing that the show is bastardizing it's concepts is a legitimate conversation to be had. Specially when we remember that it isn't perfect and writers can miss their mark for a variety of reasons, and people have different opinions on what that mark is.

 

 

And fourth: because I don't like how Flurry Heart looks, doesn't mean that I hate the show and can't watch it anymore. Specially when the episode can come and change a lot of preconceptions about the character.

 

You and I both know that there are more than enough people that are blindly hating this specifically because the foal is an alicorn. Blind hate doesn't add something to the conversation, its white noise. I'm not saying all people who have a problem with this are in this category, but when the only intelligible thing they have to say on the matter is a string of insults then yeah, that doesn't need to muck up the works. 

 

 the reason people hate on new Alicorns, unless I'm mistaken here, is because it goes against their preconceptions on "what an Alicorn is", As in, It goes against their head canon on what an alicorn is. It is NOT canon that the two Sisters are supposedly immortal or deities, nor has that ever been expressed. People have inferred it, but that is head canon territory, not set in stone fact. 

 

There are again, plenty of people who will claim the show is "absolutely ruined" do to this or any other little change the show has to the status quo. The Princess Twilight debacle alone should be evidence of this. If you can give it a chance then that's great, you have a leg up on the people who'll write it off as crap before anything even happens. 

[AccountNoLongerUsed 741]

Am i the only one wondering why her eyes arent colored dots like the Cake Twins, the first group of infants in the show?

[Metemponychosis 1,261]

 

 

You and I both know that there are more than enough people that are blindly hating this specifically because the foal is an alicorn. Blind hate doesn't add something to the conversation, its white noise. I'm not saying all people who have a problem with this are in this category, but when the only intelligible thing they have to say on the matter is a string of insults then yeah, that doesn't need to muck up the works. 

 People don't "blind hate". Saying that is like saying that they hate for the sake of hating and I don't think I've seen anyone actually do that. And even if they did, it would be a part of the conversation, even if a weak reason for disliking something. People have opinions and a forum is the place to voice them. Now, if you're getting insults, that is why we have mods. Report them.

 

 

 

 the reason people hate on new Alicorns, unless I'm mistaken here, is because it goes against their preconceptions on "what an Alicorn is", As in, It goes against their head canon on what an alicorn is. It is NOT canon that the two Sisters are supposedly immortal or deities, nor has that ever been expressed. People have inferred it, but that is head canon territory, not set in stone fact. 

They have (I happen to think that too) good reason to defend that being born an alicorn is a weaker idea than the idea that ponies become alicorns (and I don't think I've seen people saying that these are mutually exclusive). That is what I call bastardization of the concept. That and the fact that people say that alicorns are immortal are to different things. Nothing in this conversation needs to be about canon or headcanon. BUT, you are right; people saying that the sisters being immortal is canon are wrong. Main reason for that is because alicorn lore is a mess, specially when some people don't consider the books as canon or even secondary canon. And that is where these arguments are coming from. It doesn't help that the owners of the material don't care. It gives them more freedom, but it messes with the fandom. Blame Hasbro, DHX and IDW. And whoever is publishing the books.

 

 

 

There are again, plenty of people who will claim the show is "absolutely ruined" do to this or any other little change the show has to the status quo. The Princess Twilight debacle alone should be evidence of this. If you can give it a chance then that's great, you have a leg up on the people who'll write it off as crap before anything even happens. 

Honestly, I think that is also an argument that is worth being presented, specially when people can change their minds by talking to others. I don't think that the show is ruined and I think that most people that say that don't really think so, as much as I think some people overreact to these comments and misinterpret them. I think, like some people, that the show is slowly losing quality for several reasons and when I see a teaser that shows a new character and I'm confused if Twilight is shocked because it's an alicorn or she's shocked because it looks like a disproportionate little design that is trying too hard, I have to wonder if people in the production process even care about quality anymore (be it in narrative coherence or visual design). Much in the same way, people felt frustrated about how Twilight's princesshood tends to be treated and the significance it had for the cartoon and in-universe characters.

 

Finally, reacting to the teaser is one thing. Then people will react to the episode when it's available. I don't think I've seen anyone going "THIS EPISODE SUCKS BECAUSE THE TEASER SHOWED AN ALICORN NEWBORN! Nnneh!" in here. And honestly, if they did, they are idiots and are likely trying to get a reaction out of people. We have a name for that and the consensus is that it's better to ignore them.

[Buck Testa 5,505]

 

 

They have (I happen to think that too) good reason to defend that being born an alicorn is a weaker idea than the idea that ponies become alicorns (and I don't think I've seen people saying that these are mutually exclusive). That is what I call bastardization of the concept. That and the fact that people say that alicorns are immortal are to different things. Nothing in this conversation needs to be about canon or headcanon. BUT, you are right; people saying that the sisters being immortal is canon are wrong. Main reason for that is because alicorn lore is a mess, specially when some people don't consider the books as canon or even secondary canon. And that is where these arguments are coming from. It doesn't help that the owners of the material don't care. It gives them more freedom, but it messes with the fandom. Blame Hasbro, DHX and IDW. And whoever is publishing the books.

I'll give you that one, if they had defined how Alicorns work sooner it would of solved a lot of these issues, but that vagueness has been with the show since season one episode one. 

I don't agree about the bastardization of the concept though.Is it so terrible that there is two kinds of Alicorns, Born and Ascended? I don't think it takes away from Twilight and Cadence. I'm actually more perturbed that we still have no clue what Cadence did to become an Alicorn than that she gave birth to one. 

 

 

 

Honestly, I think that is also an argument that is worth being presented, specially when people can change their minds by talking to others. I don't think that the show is ruined and I think that most people that say that don't really think so, as much as I think some people overreact to these comments and misinterpret them. I think, like some people, that the show is slowly losing quality for several reasons and when I see a teaser that shows a new character and I'm confused if Twilight is shocked because it's an alicorn or she's shocked because it looks like a disproportionate little design that is trying too hard, I have to wonder if people in the production process even care about quality anymore (be it in narrative coherence or visual design). Much in the same way, people felt frustrated about how Twilight's princesshood tends to be treated and the significance it had for the cartoon and in-universe characters.

 

 

I wouldn't write them off just yet, Season 5 was one of my favorites and it was filled with continuity nods. If anything I'd argue the quality has greatly improved since season 1. I'm not super concerned with the Foals character design right now because they can always make it more appealing when it becomes a Filly. The wings are off putting I'll admit on that, and I even cracked a joke that by the time she's a filly she'd have Scootaloo's dream wings. For some reason these guys have a rough time introducing characters but they are able to make them work after the rough landing. I think the same will happen with the foal. 

 

still you make some fair points

[Metemponychosis 1,261]

 

 

I'll give you that one, if they had defined how Alicorns work sooner it would of solved a lot of these issues, but that vagueness has been with the show since season one episode one.  I don't agree about the bastardization of the concept though.Is it so terrible that there is two kinds of Alicorns, Born and Ascended? I don't think it takes away from Twilight and Cadence. I'm actually more perturbed that we still have no clue what Cadence did to become an Alicorn than that she gave birth to one. 

According to Twilight's chapter book,

Cadance was a pegasus living as an adopted foal in a earth pony village where she defeated a witch called Prismia, by reverting her love stealing spell. she then went to the same place where Twilight went and was met by Celestia.

 

This is very personal, of course. I'd prefer if alicorns earned their position always. It seems cheap that Twilight has to earn it, but not Flurry Heart, adding to it the fact that Flurry probably only exists because the marketing team told DHX to spawn her... It seems a bit cheap. But the episode may change my opinion. Maybe I'm wrong in calling the whole thing a bastardization of this idea in the end, if they convince me that Flurry isn't a slap to Twilight's face. At best I still think that this a crack in the narrative coherence, as much as I think the same of the Journal of the Two Sisters. In conclusion, I have been surprised by the staff and pleasantly so.

 

 

 

I wouldn't write them off just yet, Season 5 was one of my favorites and it was filled with continuity nods. If anything I'd argue the quality has greatly improved since season 1. I'm not super concerned with the Foals character design right now because they can always make it more appealing when it becomes a Filly. The wings are off putting I'll admit on that, and I even cracked a joke that by the time she's a filly she'd have Scootaloo's dream wings. For some reason these guys have a rough time introducing characters but they are able to make them work after the rough landing. I think the same will happen with the foal. 

Well, this IS subjective because people value different things. Continuity nods aren't that important to me as a solid worldbuilding and the sensical plots. But you're right. We'll see what'll come out of it. I think that there's more to this foal and the whole thing than what the teaser is letting on (obviously).

[BalanceBrony 259]

So, I want to try and do my best to address all of @@Buck Testa, points.

 

First off, the books are considered canon by many now more than ever, because all of the writers of the books have now written for the show, and the books are officially licensed. Stories made by people who work for the show count as canon.

 

That said, here goes the main arguments.

 

1) The show makes it very clear that Alicorns are supposed to be special. It's complete and utter break of continuity if too many Alicorns join the cast. If everyone is special, nobody is.

 

2) There are indeed two kinds of Alicorns, born and ascended. That's why I stopped complaining about that aspect. But, it is worth noting that most of the Alicorn tribe vanished (source: Book of Two Sisters, written by show staff).

 

3) However, the show makes it clear that the Two Sisters, Twilight, and Cadence are special even among Alicorns. The first 3 are connected to the Tree of Harmony, and Cadence to the Crystal Heart. Those 4 are special even among Alicorns. So, Flurry Heart should not be on their level. And giving her some grand destiny is a major risk to telling a good story. More on that later.

 

4) Born Alicorns are a thing, but the fact that she is a special Princess without earning the title puts her in a different status from the other 4 Princesses. Celestia and Luna had to prove themselves to the population of Equestria, even though they were elected into power by a council solely because of their Alicornness. The population was not completely in support, so they had to prove their right to rule over all ponies by uniting Equestria. Cadence saved the villlage by fixing the Crystal Heart Spell. Twilight mastered the Magic of Friendship. All of them did things before earning the full title of Princess of Equestria.

 

5) The earned title of the 4 Princesses was a major part of the show's intended feministic message. That females can earn powerful positions with hard work and determination. Strong females. Flurry Fart was born a Princess, which cheapens that message.

 

6) There are several issues related not only to her Alicorn and Princess status, but here status as a "special" baby. "Special" babies are notorious for being walking plot devices. If they don't give her any significant power, then this will be headed off. But if she is "special" and powerful, the risk for bad writing skyrockets.

 

7) If I were to use the example of Poof from Fairly OddParents, Poof was a MacGuffin and Deus Ex Machina at the same time. He was a walking plot device, existing only to serve as both conflicts and solutions. Given the general difficulty of writing a baby (since how deep and interesting can the character of a baby be?) it is all too easy for them to become a mechanic, rather than a character.

 

8) Further, if they do something stupid like a "Chosen One" type of story- not only has that been done already in this show- but it is an overused trope. And it's all the worse if you have a baby be the "special" character. Because a baby, lacking in reason or autonomy, can only be shallow. And if they make the baby smart, and/or powerful, it changes them into a character, sure. But that kind of OPness and Precociousness makes them a borderline Mary Sue/Gary Stu on TOP of being a walking plot device.

 

9) Babies are one of the worst characters to add to a show, and are notoriously easy to mess up. If she isn't special or powerful, then fair enough. Flurry Heart would then be in the same class as Cadence and Shining- just kind of there. But if she is made special and/or powerful, it would be horrible.

 

10) Regardless of whether she is special or not, the chances of her being anything other than a stupid plot device is very low. In all likelihood, she'll be more of an object than a character.

 

11) Underneath it all, it can't be forgotten that a historically bad character type was forced into the show by a toy company that cares about profits way more than writing a cohesive story. No sane writer would add one of the worst archetypes to a show if they weren't forced to. Babies are an inherently easy character to mess up, because their inferior capacities make them an object, and not a character. And adding higher capacities makes them OP and boring instead of a walking plot device. There are two extreme sides of adding a baby to a show, and very little middle ground

 

So, there are all the reasons it can go wrong, or is perceived as a major threat to the quality of the show. That said, let me preemptively state some solid counterarguments.

 

It could be said that the writers are very capable, and indeed they are. They have taken plenty of lemons from Hasbro and made them something cool or interesting. However, it is verrry hard to fix babies.

 

It could be said that the books are only semi-canon, and I want to say no to this. I don't think something officially sanctioned, and officially written by the writers is anything other than canon.

 

It could be said that Flurry Fart being a walking plot device is no different from Cadence or Shining, and a couple of other characters, and to be fair, that's right. However, that doesn't mean it is excusable to add ANOTHER boring MacGuffin/Deus Ex Machina, who, if done wrong, might ALSO be a Mary Sue.

 

It could be said that maybe MLP isn't intended to be feministic anymore, and that it has deviated from the original path, but I disagree. Because, even as recently as Season 5, we saw plenty of cases where the strength of the main cast as self-made, independent females, was made very clear. And even if that is not the direct intention anymore, having even one character that breaks the mold of strong females is definitely a disconnect from some of the feel of the show, which features many strong female characters that do things to show their strength, ability, and they earn their achievements. Making being born an achievement is a disconnect.

 

It's obvious to say that I am jumping to conclusions about her being "special" and that I should wait until the episode actually comes out. But, don't forget that Alicorns are by definition "special" in the world of MLP. So, that's very much a given conclusion. The odds of her being normal  are outweighed by the chance she'll be a special snowflake. You said in one of your posts that this is a good step towards "Killing the notion that alicorns are supposed to be special." But the thing is, killing that notion is completely retconning the canon. Even if the books were not canon, the show itself makes it very clear that Alicorn = Special. "Killing" that notion means the writers would be giving a direct middle finger to the story. So no, "Killing" this idea is objectively a break in continuity. Nobody will deny that the show itself is canon.

 

Believe me, I would love  if she is just a normal pony. That would stop her from being a Mary Sue, at least. That would actually make an interesting notion that the 4 Princesses > normal alicorns > normal ponies. Which is an interesting power dynamic. It would also make for some Alicorn lore, and more specialness to the main 4 Princesses. And also that Alicorns aren't inherently powerful. Which is definitely one of the better ways they can handle this. But will the writers make her normal? Time will tell. It would still be a contradiction to the existing story, but it would be better than having an OP special snowflake baby.

 

Tangentially related, but not really- Mane 6 as Alicorns would be cruddy for different reasons. It would make it a bit more boring if they all had the same abilities. Putting them in the middle ground or normal alicorns > normal ponies would be a disservice to their importance, but making them all on the same level as the 4 Princesses would be boring. Also, that would make Alicornness TOO normal. I like the idea of "normal" Alicorns, but seeing a bunch of them, and seeing everybody attain that just gets rid of diversity, and makes things flat. There should be such a thing as "special". Because if nobody is above the rest, then it becomes washed out.

 

At first that may seem contradictory, but the short way of saying it is this. There should be "special" characters. But that specialness should be earned, not given. Also, if too many people are special, nobody will be, hence having an entire cast of "special" characters (ascended alicorns) would cheapen the value of that gain.

 

It can be said that MLP was created to sell toys, but it should be subtle, and it isn't good if the story we love is harmed by MLPs status as a toy commercial. The writers chose to make a good show, and when Hasbro makes an executive decision in affront to the canon, it is infuriating. Just a reminder that they only care about their bottom line, breaking through the 4th wall without a care. When stuff like this happens, it snaps the viewer back to reality, saying "That doesn't fit! HASBROOOOO!"

 

That's what I can think of in terms of direct responses to my points

 

Now, how can the baby be done as well as possible? (in order of preference)

1) The Changeling theory is fascinating and would actually be amazing. But I doubt it

 

2) She is disabled/deformed and she can't fly or use magic or something like that. This gives her flaws. If her power is negated in this way, it's an interesting way to use her. The only exception is I don't want a darn dumbo story where the only thing she has to worry about is bullies. Bullying has been done very well in this show already. Don't need to cover it anymore.

 

3) She is some kind of omen. Not my favorite choice, but if it's something where she is barely featured, then I don't mind much.

 

4) She is just a normal pony. Nothing special about her, and she's just there. This makes her no better or worse than Cadence and Shining in their first appearances.

 

5) Don't feature her like, at all, outside of these two episodes

 

Stories I DON'T want.

1) Chosen One BS

 

2) As powerful as the Princesses

 

3) Poof-format stories where she goofs stuff up only for everyone else to clean it up

 

4) Kidnapping. Unless it is related to the changeling story possibility mentioned above.

 

5) The only conflict is dealing with a "special" baby that is harder to take care of than normal babies

 

6) Dumbo/bullying type of story

 

Anyways, that is a big read, I know, but please do.

 

Also, I should point out that her eyes being bigger is just the new Foal model. If you remember the Pinkie Pie episode, AJ had this eye style in her baby picture as well.

Edited February 12, 2016 by BalanceBrony

[Limeblossom 482]

We're getting more alicorns in town.

 

 

6) Dumbo/bullying type of story

You will be lucky. They "reformed" Diamond Tiara.

Personally, the whole reformation of that filly was bullshit. If you look back at her actions against the CMC and other ponies... and no, having a mother with the same rhetoric is no excuse.

[IvaCatheriaNoid 115]

Ohh, so many messages and so many long text.... People, answers is so easy:

1). Alicorn can born from pegasus and unicorn fusion or magic like Twilight and Cadence. in all they won't be special if they won't learn magic. Just imagine what if Twilight was alicorn when she didn't known anything?.. Alicornity - it's just like ponies DLC XD, yay, +wings and nothing so special. I don't really think that Celestia or Luna had their abilities like now from the beginning. 2). Mane 6 alicorns?.. Bhahm, useless and not really posible. I don't think that Hasbro don't looking at fans and doing really everything they want. They have plans and they won't do anything without reasons, i think.

So, questions that i see in this thread is simple to answer, just need to know how. And yay, if it was all quetions that i din't miss.

[Buck Testa 5,505]

1) The show makes it very clear that Alicorns are supposed to be special. It's complete and utter break of continuity if too many Alicorns join the cast. If everyone is special, nobody is.

They are special, in the sense of royalty, not in the sense of some kind of deities. They seem like deities to us because what they do is far beyond our capabilities sure, but if you look in the context of equestria they are not revered or worshiped like gods nor do they really have the powers of such. Like I said, a group of Unicorns could do what Alicorns can do (at least in terms of of the raising the sun and moon). Alicorns were chosen as a ruling class because of their connection to the three tribes, and it seems to of worked for the most part. Hell Sombra was a Unicorn (or something else in the IDW comics, but I forget what they called it) and he ended up with enough power to match Celestia in that alternate universe.

3) However, the show makes it clear that the Two Sisters, Twilight, and Cadence are special even among Alicorns. The first 3 are connected to the Tree of Harmony, and Cadence to the Crystal Heart. Those 4 are special even among Alicorns. So, Flurry Heart should not be on their level. And giving her some grand destiny is a major risk to telling a good story. More on that later.

She may not be. Even if she was she is an infant, so the likelihood of her even doing anything besides your typical baby antics isn't that high. She didn't come out of the womb speaking like Stewie Griffin...Although that would of been hilarious now that I think about it.

 

"Mother, I am going to take over Equestria, Muahahaha!"

"That's nice dear"

 

Anyway I digress. The point is she is a baby, and is probably not even going to be a thing for the majority of the season. It would offer a chance to have a time skip to when the baby is a filly (probably a following season deal), which would lead to a whole bunch of interesting shifts in the status quo.

4) Born Alicorns are a thing, but the fact that she is a special Princess without earning the title puts her in a different status from the other 4 Princesses. Celestia and Luna had to prove themselves to the population of Equestria, even though they were elected into power by a council solely because of their Alicornness. The population was not completely in support, so they had to prove their right to rule over all ponies by uniting Equestria. Cadence saved the villlage by fixing the Crystal Heart Spell. Twilight mastered the Magic of Friendship. All of them did things before earning the full title of Princess of Equestria.

Like I mentioned before, EVEN IF she wasn't born an Alicorn, she would of STILL been a princess because her mother is royalty. No matter if she were an earth pony, a unicorn, or a Pegasus, she would of still been a princess. The power dynamic, again, really isn't as big of a part of the equation that people try to make them out to be. This isn't like Dragon Ball Z, where "super Saiyans" were cheapened because every body could do it. DBZ is a predominantly action centered show, and one of its greatest flaws has always been "power creep", or the the increasing of the powers of the characters to the point where there isn't even any realistic threat for them that isn't some super powered deity or demon from another dimension. The reason this isn't the same is because MLP isn't focused on "power levels", despite the whole threats from thousand year old enemies of equestria on the premiers and finale's of nearly every season. In fact, not a single threat was ever defeated purely with Alicorn magic.

 

I'll repeat that: No serious enemy in the entire series either past or present, as far as the show is concerned, has ever been defeated purely by Alicorn magic. The closest thing they had was a stalemate with Tirek. It has always been the Tree of Harmony and the things that come from it like the elements, map, and castle that always ends up ending the fight once and for all, every single time it intervenes. Even in the instances that The Tree of Harmony didn't intervene on affairs, their still isn't an example of pure brute force from an Alicorn solving any threat. Sombra was Defeated by the Crystal heart returning to its proper place (I do recall reading an IDW comic saying that the Crystal heart is actually enemies with whatever crystal that gave Sombra his powers. Makes me wonder if there are more of these sentient Crystals out there like the Tree and the Crystal heart). The closest thing to an Alicorn winning by her own power was against Chrysalis, but if you recall, she had touched horns with Shining Armor and lent him power specifically so he could use HIS spell to send her away. It was a joint effort, not just her.

 

In terms of proving herself, right now Flurry Hearts is just a baby; the only thing she needs to prove herself on right now is potty training and being able to eat her food properly. Given we've already had episodes following such escapades with the Cake twins, I doubt it would be much of a gripping episode to retread those steps. I'm thinking they may go the route of Cadence trying to learn how to take care of a foal, maybe even seeking advice from the Cakes.

2) There are indeed two kinds of Alicorns, born and ascended. That's why I stopped complaining about that aspect. But, it is worth noting that most of the Alicorn tribe vanished (source: Book of Two Sisters, written by show staff).

 

And the presence of another born Alicorn could lead into world building on what happened to the Alicorn tribe! A lot of the problems with Alicorn lore is that its largely unexplained. This could give them a reason to expand and solidify what the nature of Alicorns really are, which I'm all for. Sure they could screw it up, but from what I've seen out of the writers of the show, including larson, is that they love what they do and enjoy the stories they tell. If they were lifeless and just doing it for the cash like Teen Titans Go I'd be right there with you on the concern thing.

5) The earned title of the 4 Princesses was a major part of the show's intended feministic message. That females can earn powerful positions with hard work and determination. Strong females. Flurry Fart was born a Princess, which cheapens that message.

Like I mentioned earlier, She'd of been a princess regardless of what she was born as. Being born into royalty doesn't cheapen royalty or females, its just a fact of life in an Autocracy. I also wouldn't say its losing its pro woman message, its part of why I love the show. So many females in media, even stuff aimed at "adults" have characterization as thin as wafers. This show isn't perfect in that regard, some characters are pretty under developed on this show; However that has more to do with Hasbro intervention than the writing staff. For instance in Party Pooped, Cadence was originally going to go with Pinkie to the Yak kingdom (instead of just standing there and pointing in a general direction like a living sign) and more things were supposed to happen in that episode, but last minute changes from on high prevented that from happening.

I'm sure though, to the best of their ability, and despite limitations that may be placed on them, that they are going to treat the show with the same care as they have this whole time.

6) There are several issues related not only to her Alicorn and Princess status, but here status as a "special" baby. "Special" babies are notorious for being walking plot devices. If they don't give her any significant power, then this will be headed off. But if she is "special" and powerful, the risk for bad writing skyrockets.

I think the show learned from Flash Sentry on the dangers of walking plot devices. That is Flash in a nutshell, and the poor reception seems to of staved off characters like that since then. Even if she were as strong as the other alicorns, I would again point out that the "specialness" of the Alicorns lies more in their connection to the three tribes and their royal status, not so much in their powers. Like I've previously stated, No major threat to equestria had ever been been brute forced by an alicorn's power alone. Now if the baby was Taking down big time baddies with a flap of her wing and a spark of a horn, THEN we'd be wandering into bad fanfic territory. I highly doubt this is the case though.

8) Further, if they do something stupid like a "Chosen One" type of story- not only has that been done already in this show- but it is an overused trope. And it's all the worse if you have a baby be the "special" character. Because a baby, lacking in reason or autonomy, can only be shallow. And if they make the baby smart, and/or powerful, it changes them into a character, sure. But that kind of OPness and Precociousness makes them a borderline Mary Sue/Gary Stu on TOP of being a walking plot device.

I doubt the show would become the "Flurry Hearts show, featuring my little pony characters" , If they did do that it would probably be a spin off series aimed at an even younger audience. The main series would not suddenly switch gears just because of a baby. I also don't think the show will retread a chosen one angle, that has been reserved for the mane six. Also, Tropes aren't inherently bad, but you have to make them your own. Undertale for example is Filled to the brim with tropes, but the spin that it takes WITH those tropes are what make it what it is. Its when there is nothing there besides tropes that it becomes just another thing you've seen before.

9) Babies are one of the worst characters to add to a show, and are notoriously easy to mess up. If she isn't special or powerful, then fair enough. Flurry Heart would then be in the same class as Cadence and Shining- just kind of there. But if she is made special and/or powerful, it would be horrible.

 

Not necessarily, for many of the points I've already stated.

10) Regardless of whether she is special or not, the chances of her being anything other than a stupid plot device is very low. In all likelihood, she'll be more of an object than a character.

11) Underneath it all, it can't be forgotten that a historically bad character type was forced into the show by a toy company that cares about profits way more than writing a cohesive story. No sane writer would add one of the worst archetypes to a show if they weren't forced to. Babies are an inherently easy character to mess up, because their inferior capacities make them an object, and not a character. And adding higher capacities makes them OP and boring instead of a walking plot device. There are two extreme sides of adding a baby to a show, and very little middle ground

 

This is a valid point. Hasbro is notorious for mucking up the works in the series, and some of the most maligned episodes can have their transgressions traced back to intervention from on high. HOWEVER, considering how well they've managed to keep the quality going despite this should be enough to give the writers some credit. Hasbro keeps its proverbial hooves out for the most part, but the show is ultimately a high quality commercial for their toys. The writers have been able to work with this pretty well so far. They've handled baby characters alright so far as well considering the cake Twins.

 

I say, considering the writers track record, and the pretty uniform quality of the show up to this point, Lets give them a chance to prove themselves like the way you say Alicorns had to prove themselves.

 

On the point of the Alicorn mane six: That would be something that would lead to a series finale. I am very much in favor of the idea that Celestia and Luna eventually retires and the Mane six ends up taking their place as the six rulers of Equestria, each taking care of a specific aspect instead of everything like the two sisters had to do. It would be interesting to see how their characters would handle such responsibilities.

Edited February 13, 2016 by Buck Testa

[Metemponychosis 1,261]

The canonicity of the books and comics can be disputed. Specially when the staff working on them has no clear answer about it and the bast that has been said is "It is if you want them to be." As far as I care, they are secondary canon until they get mentioned in the cartoon.

 

I don't care if Luna and Celestia where born alicorns or not, but I think that people are mentioning the Journal of the Two Sisters a bit too much for a book that doesn't say that they were born alicorns. What it says is that alicorns age differently and that is why they were adults (more like mindless teenagers) in the story and still were blank flanks. It also says that Star Swirl "approached" them and the ponies decided the two should protect the friendship the tribes found. Since alicorns are basically the three tribes in one. How that means that are going to be good rulers (or guardians as Celestia says it), I don't know.

 

Another thing the book mentions is that the two were educated by alicorns. Anywhere between two and two billion. Never mentioned again. Nothing is clearly said about them and that is the problem with this whole book. It's bland, vague and unimaginative in everything. Not to mention that it's more of Celestia just being there and Luna doing stuff. It feels like it's trying to plug the wholes after Hearth's Warming Eve more than tell a story.

 

TL; DR: alicorns are a mess. The lore about the alicorns is a mess. People are assuming as much as I was assuming when I thought that Celestia and Luna were deities back in season one. The only consistent thing we have about the origin of alicorns, is that ponies can become alicorns. And by ponies, I mean Twilight, because Cadance's story in Twilight's book is weaker than ice in the desert.

 

But all that is just my opinion. If next season comes and says that Flurry Heart is an alicorn (what she seems to be), then okay. Ponies can be born alicorns. But Luna and Celestia's origins are still unexplained.

[Buck Testa 5,505]

 

 

TL; DR: alicorns are a mess. The lore about the alicorns is a mess. People are assuming as much as I was assuming when I thought that Celestia and Luna were deities back in season one. The only consistent thing we have about the origin of alicorns, is that ponies can become alicorns. And by ponies, I mean Twilight, because Cadance's story in Twilight's book is weaker than ice in the desert.

 

I do wish they had some kind of quality control when it comes to the extra material. I've liked some of the IDW comics for example, but others were just cringe worthy in how bad they were. The show itself holds up fine in my opinion, but when it comes to the extra stuff its really hit or miss. That probably a big reason why people are so tentative about declaring it absolute canon. 

[Rainbow Diamonds 282]

So much for Starlight as the mane seventh. This definitely gives us some notion of her status now. 

She wasn't in that particular scene, but she was in other scenes. They are storyboard, though. I think I know why Starlight wasn't there at the time. I won't spoil it for you, though. 

[Megas 27,618]

She wasn't in that particular scene, but she was in other scenes. They are storyboard, though. I think I know why Starlight wasn't there at the time. I won't spoil it for you, though. 

Those were fake though, Big Jim confirmed it himself

[Rainbow Diamonds 282]

Those were fake though, Big Jim confirmed it himself

That sucks. I hope she's in the episode. She doesn't have to be a main character, but her not being there just wouldn't make sense.

[CastletonSnob 3,074]

http://www.equestriadaily.com/2016/02/new-hearthswarming-eve-season-6-song.html#more

 

http://www.equestriadaily.com/2016/02/new-griffon-character-revealed-at-toy.html#more

 

Here's some information about S6.

[Buck Testa 5,505]

http://www.equestriadaily.com/2016/02/new-hearthswarming-eve-season-6-song.html#more

 

http://www.equestriadaily.com/2016/02/new-griffon-character-revealed-at-toy.html#more

 

Here's some information about S6.

Holy fuck.... that second link...that's some head canon demolishing stuff right there... 

[BalanceBrony 259]

They are special, in the sense of royalty, not in the sense of some kind of deities. They seem like deities to us because what they do is far beyond our capabilities sure, but if you look in the context of equestria they are not revered or worshiped like gods nor do they really have the powers of such. Like I said, a group of Unicorns could do what Alicorns can do (at least in terms of of the raising the sun and moon). Alicorns were chosen as a ruling class because of their connection to the three tribes, and it seems to of worked for the most part. Hell Sombra was a Unicorn (or something else in the IDW comics, but I forget what they called it) and he ended up with enough power to match Celestia in that alternate universe.

 

She may not be. Even if she was she is an infant, so the likelihood of her even doing anything besides your typical baby antics isn't that high. She didn't come out of the womb speaking like Stewie Griffin...Although that would of been hilarious now that I think about it.

 

"Mother, I am going to take over Equestria, Muahahaha!"

"That's nice dear"

 

Anyway I digress. The point is she is a baby, and is probably not even going to be a thing for the majority of the season. It would offer a chance to have a time skip to when the baby is a filly (probably a following season deal), which would lead to a whole bunch of interesting shifts in the status quo.

 

Like I mentioned before, EVEN IF she wasn't born an Alicorn, she would of STILL been a princess because her mother is royalty. No matter if she were an earth pony, a unicorn, or a Pegasus, she would of still been a princess. The power dynamic, again, really isn't as big of a part of the equation that people try to make them out to be. This isn't like Dragon Ball Z, where "super Saiyans" were cheapened because every body could do it. DBZ is a predominantly action centered show, and one of its greatest flaws has always been "power creep", or the the increasing of the powers of the characters to the point where there isn't even any realistic threat for them that isn't some super powered deity or demon from another dimension. The reason this isn't the same is because MLP isn't focused on "power levels", despite the whole threats from thousand year old enemies of equestria on the premiers and finale's of nearly every season. In fact, not a single threat was ever defeated purely with Alicorn magic.

 

I'll repeat that: No serious enemy in the entire series either past or present, as far as the show is concerned, has ever been defeated purely by Alicorn magic. The closest thing they had was a stalemate with Tirek. It has always been the Tree of Harmony and the things that come from it like the elements, map, and castle that always ends up ending the fight once and for all, every single time it intervenes. Even in the instances that The Tree of Harmony didn't intervene on affairs, their still isn't an example of pure brute force from an Alicorn solving any threat. Sombra was Defeated by the Crystal heart returning to its proper place (I do recall reading an IDW comic saying that the Crystal heart is actually enemies with whatever crystal that gave Sombra his powers. Makes me wonder if there are more of these sentient Crystals out there like the Tree and the Crystal heart). The closest thing to an Alicorn winning by her own power was against Chrysalis, but if you recall, she had touched horns with Shining Armor and lent him power specifically so he could use HIS spell to send her away. It was a joint effort, not just her.

 

In terms of proving herself, right now Flurry Hearts is just a baby; the only thing she needs to prove herself on right now is potty training and being able to eat her food properly. Given we've already had episodes following such escapades with the Cake twins, I doubt it would be much of a gripping episode to retread those steps. I'm thinking they may go the route of Cadence trying to learn how to take care of a foal, maybe even seeking advice from the Cakes.

 

 

And the presence of another born Alicorn could lead into world building on what happened to the Alicorn tribe! A lot of the problems with Alicorn lore is that its largely unexplained. This could give them a reason to expand and solidify what the nature of Alicorns really are, which I'm all for. Sure they could screw it up, but from what I've seen out of the writers of the show, including larson, is that they love what they do and enjoy the stories they tell. If they were lifeless and just doing it for the cash like Teen Titans Go I'd be right there with you on the concern thing.

 

Like I mentioned earlier, She'd of been a princess regardless of what she was born as. Being born into royalty doesn't cheapen royalty or females, its just a fact of life in an Autocracy. I also wouldn't say its losing its pro woman message, its part of why I love the show. So many females in media, even stuff aimed at "adults" have characterization as thin as wafers. This show isn't perfect in that regard, some characters are pretty under developed on this show; However that has more to do with Hasbro intervention than the writing staff. For instance in Party Pooped, Cadence was originally going to go with Pinkie to the Yak kingdom (instead of just standing there and pointing in a general direction like a living sign) and more things were supposed to happen in that episode, but last minute changes from on high prevented that from happening.

I'm sure though, to the best of their ability, and despite limitations that may be placed on them, that they are going to treat the show with the same care as they have this whole time.

 

I think the show learned from Flash Sentry on the dangers of walking plot devices. That is Flash in a nutshell, and the poor reception seems to of staved off characters like that since then. Even if she were as strong as the other alicorns, I would again point out that the "specialness" of the Alicorns lies more in their connection to the three tribes and their royal status, not so much in their powers. Like I've previously stated, No major threat to equestria had ever been been brute forced by an alicorn's power alone. Now if the baby was Taking down big time baddies with a flap of her wing and a spark of a horn, THEN we'd be wandering into bad fanfic territory. I highly doubt this is the case though.

 

I doubt the show would become the "Flurry Hearts show, featuring my little pony characters" , If they did do that it would probably be a spin off series aimed at an even younger audience. The main series would not suddenly switch gears just because of a baby. I also don't think the show will retread a chosen one angle, that has been reserved for the mane six. Also, Tropes aren't inherently bad, but you have to make them your own. Undertale for example is Filled to the brim with tropes, but the spin that it takes WITH those tropes are what make it what it is. Its when there is nothing there besides tropes that it becomes just another thing you've seen before.

 

 

Not necessarily, for many of the points I've already stated.

 

 

This is a valid point. Hasbro is notorious for mucking up the works in the series, and some of the most maligned episodes can have their transgressions traced back to intervention from on high. HOWEVER, considering how well they've managed to keep the quality going despite this should be enough to give the writers some credit. Hasbro keeps its proverbial hooves out for the most part, but the show is ultimately a high quality commercial for their toys. The writers have been able to work with this pretty well so far. They've handled baby characters alright so far as well considering the cake Twins.

 

I say, considering the writers track record, and the pretty uniform quality of the show up to this point, Lets give them a chance to prove themselves like the way you say Alicorns had to prove themselves.

 

On the point of the Alicorn mane six: That would be something that would lead to a series finale. I am very much in favor of the idea that Celestia and Luna eventually retires and the Mane six ends up taking their place as the six rulers of Equestria, each taking care of a specific aspect instead of everything like the two sisters had to do. It would be interesting to see how their characters would handle such responsibilities.

1) True, but it drained them of their power. Celestia and Luna did not get sapped in doing it. Also, they are connected to the Tree of Harmony, so there's more towards their significane than just their alicorn-ness.

 

2) You mention it at a later point- but typical baby antics are also an undesirable thing. As for time skipping to Fillihood- I couldn't give half a darn, because it stands that a being that is born powerful and significant is boring. If she is important enough to change the status quo, even at a later date, then I'm not going to be too happy. If there's going to be another damn Alicorn, i don't want it to change the show much. That's literally the best that cna be done. Besides, both EQG and the CMC stand as far more interesting story premises for spin-offs imho.

 

3) And who says royalty should work the same in MLP as the real world? All of the Princesses earned their title. And being born makes it so like "Oh, you don't need to actually do anything. Just get born lucky and you're special!" The whole notion of being born special is ugh. Especially in MLP.

 

4) True. But they are still inherently more powerful within the current lore. More raw power. If Alicornhood is not inherent power, then that is the best solution for this point. But if it is, ugh.

 

5) Boring foal-sitting is just about as bad as OP Mary Sue. maybe a bit better in this case, because maybe Cadence will finally get flaws.

 

6) Agree on the fact I want Alicorn lore. But there would have been much better ways then a stupid baby. I'm on board if the twerp gets as little attention as possible.

 

7) See point 3

 

8) Yeah, but what can a baby really become? Also, royal status and alicornhood are not inherently linked. The royal status of these specific alicorns is related mostly to what they've done, more than anything else, and a bit of the alicornness. But mostly what they've done.

 

9) Tropes are not inherently done. But the same one should not be used too much in one story. Especially the Chosen One trope.

 

10) Yeah. And that is probably one of the biggest sources of outrage here. Hasbro meddling. It was going to be a dang unicorn until they stepped in. Removing all of these issues. Babies are horrible for storytelling. "Special" ones are even worse.

 

11) Eh. It was supposed to be Twilight succeeds the Princesses and the others are her advisers. According to the original story layout. Confirmed by several writers.

Holy fuck.... that second link...that's some head canon demolishing stuff right there...

I mean, Zecora has a cutie mark. Granted, she is Equine, whereas Griffons are part lion, but it's not that much of a stretch.

[Unlikeable Pony 2,698]

. And being born makes it so like "Oh, you don't need to actually do anything. Just get born lucky and you're special!" The whole notion of being born special is ugh. Especially in MLP.

 

The "chosen one from birth" stuff has been part of FIM ever since they started Shilling twilight's background more.

 

She had a cutie mark that was the tree of harmony's symbol after all, showing her to be destined from the start; Her Element started from the get-go as her Cutie mark's shape, unlike the others which were generic shaped and only changed later to be the other 5's cutie mark. (as per S4's retconning the element of magic being on the tree of harmony and the EOM being her shape when celestia wielded it)

 

 

So FIM already has the idea that a pony can be special before earning anything, so Princess flurry heart being an alicorn isn't really much different than twilight having the tree of harmony's symbol on her flank, it just means that flurry heart is pre-destined in the same way twilight was.

(not that I like that, but its already how things seem to work in FIM)

[CastletonSnob 3,074]

A little worried about S6:
 

• No AKR, Larson probably won't be as involved since he's working on his book
• Flurry Heart
• Griffon cutie marks
• ANOTHER Hearthswarming episode. Did we really need a third one? I'd rather have another Hearts and Hooves Day episode.

[Unlikeable Pony 2,698]

 

A little worried about S6:

 

• No AKR, Larson probably won't be as involved since he's working on his book
• Flurry Heart
• Griffon cutie marks
• ANOTHER Hearthswarming episode. Did we really need a third one? I'd rather have another Hearts and Hooves Day episode.

 

 

Also worried about Starlight glimmer possibly having a heavy role in this season >.<

[CastletonSnob 3,074]

Also worried about Starlight glimmer possibly having a heavy role in this season >.<

Do the things I listed worry you too?

[Unlikeable Pony 2,698]

Do the things I listed worry you too?

The griffon one does, yes. As does AKR and Larson leaving.

 

However, I'm more concerned with the rumors that Josh haber is taking over for McCarthy's position than AKR leaving, as I HATED friendship games and found many issues with Cutie remarked as the finale for the season.

 

 

I actually am fairly chill about Flurry heart because I figure she'll be pushed straight into the background after the premier never to be seen again, but I understand where people's concerns come from.

 

 

The hearth warming one I'm a little more neutral about as I have very little to go on so far. The only thing that has me worried is the "Christmas dragons" part. Like. WHAT. WHAT THE HELL DO WE NEED CHRISTMAS DRAGONS FOR?!

I don't mind a hearth's warming eve episode if it focuses on family, I just worry that they'll focus on something else.

[CastletonSnob 3,074]

The griffon one does, yes. As does AKR and Larson leaving.

 

However, I'm more concerned with the rumors that Josh haber is taking over for McCarthy's position than AKR leaving, as I HATED friendship games and found many issues with Cutie remarked as the finale for the season.

 

 

I actually am fairly chill about Flurry heart because I figure she'll be pushed straight into the background after the premier never to be seen again, but I understand where people's concerns come from.

 

 

The hearth warming one I'm a little more neutral about as I have very little to go on so far. The only thing that has me worried is the "Christmas dragons" part. Like. WHAT. WHAT THE HELL DO WE NEED CHRISTMAS DRAGONS FOR?!

I don't mind a hearth's warming eve episode if it focuses on family, I just worry that they'll focus on something else.

 

I thought Cutie Re-Mark was style over substance. And it had not just the worst redemption of the show, but possibly the worst villain redemption I've ever seen.