Trans characters in video games.

[CastletonSnob 3,063]

How do you feel about the representation of (or lack of representation of) trans video game characters? Do you think that there should be more video games with trans protagonists?

[Castle Bleck 19,295]

If I recall correctly, Vivian was implied to be one in the Japanese version of Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.

[MasterOfHugs 45]

I don't get the mentality "I'm different, every form of media NEEDS to represent me". Its petty, and silly.

[Jeric 46,848]

1 minute ago, MasterOfHugs said:

I don't get the mentality "I'm different, every form of media NEEDS to represent me". Its petty, and silly.

You don't get the mentality or don't like the mentality? The first one has to do with the psychology of relatability in media. I can point you to several studies that would help you understand the basic motivation in people when they want to see something that has similarities to them in gaming, books, movies, TV. 

If you meant you don't like it, well that is a completely different discussion. 

[MasterOfHugs 45]

1 minute ago, Jeric said:

You don't get the mentality or don't like the mentality? The first one has to do with the psychology of relatability in media. I can point you to several studies that would help you understand the basic motivation in people when they want to see something that has similarities to them in gaming, books, movies, TV. 

If you meant you don't like it, well that is a completely different discussion. 

I don't GET the mentality. How many video game characters have openly gone through bariatric surgery?... a lot less  than there are trans video game characters. How many people exist that have gone through bariatric surgery?.... A lot more than existent trans people.  and yet I have never heard ANYONE complain that bariatric patients are unrepresented in video games (I certainty do not care that there's next to no bariatric patients in games). There seems to be only a few groups actually caring about their personally representation in games. Feminists, trans and homosexuals to name most of them. It just seems like a petty and oversensitive mindset to me.

[Zyrael 1,471]

Birdo is one of the oldest trans characters in video games

 

 

I'd love to see more of course. A trans protagonist would be great 

[Retro*Derpy 3,180]

It doesn't really matter to me much.

However I think it's funny shadow warrior 2 made a joke about it.

[K.Rool Addict 718]

No way!

This would be awful. If they WANTED to put in trans character OF THEIR OWN VOLITION, I would have no problem with it. Artistic expression is a positive thing. BUT I can assure you all that if we were to see more "Trans" characters in games nowadays, it would be the result of societal pressure to be "inclusive" and get publicity for doing so. Therefore, it would very likely not be the artist's vision, but instead some Trans flavored sprinkles added to the "dish" in order to get more $$$ from the progressively leaning mainstream videogame consumers >.<

[Hazard Time 1,127]

The problem with trans characters in video games is that the AAA industry is more interested in pandering to them than they are in actually representing them.  I wouldn't mind a trans protagonist in any game, the problem is that the current media zeitgeist has no idea how to treat them.  The most controversial examples of trans characters in video games, such as Mizhena from Baldur's Gate:Siege of Dragonspear and Hainley Abrams from Mass Effect: Andromeda, were absolutely poorly written stereotypes that based the entire character around the fact that they're trans, yet I find it ironic that the games media was more than willing to universally defend the former yet bash the latter.

There's no sense in trying to pander to an audience by including a diverse cast.  Just write characters, and if they happen to be trans, so be it.  What most gamers DON'T want, and why Mizhena and Hainley were so poorly received, is a character who is only in the game to lecture the player about morals while signalling the virtue of the developers.  How kind and thoughtful they were to include such a marginalized, misunderstood individual who can't help who she is but still remains strong when presented with all these hateful, bigoted people who have no reason to hate such a saintly human being except that they're just meanies.  Bless her heart 

But seriously, putting trans people on a pedestal of virtue simply because they're marginalized won't do anything towards making them more accepted in society.  What most AAA writers have yet to understand is that making someone a marginalized demographic doesn't automatically make them sympathetic, unless you already have such a low opinion of them that you think that simply including one in a video game is progress.  If you want people to sympathize with your characters, then you give them dreams, faults, weaknesses, personality.  In other words, you make them human, and until I see a trans character with a developed personality whose identity isn't a defining personality trait, I will never be convinced that the AAA industry actually gives a shit about "diversity".

[FlitterFlutter 1,580]

As someone who is trans, I hate the idea. A character's gender identification is really irrelevant, in like most games. Then when it is relevant it comes off as pandering bullshit.

[Jeric 46,848]

22 minutes ago, MasterOfHugs said:

Feminists, trans and homosexuals to name most of them.

Disability, mental illness, and race are also widely discussed when it comes to media representation. It basically comes down to a desire to see ourselves in whatever art we consume as part of our many biases. Similarly we also become that which we experience, at least to a small degree. 

Here is some foundational literature on the latter. 

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797611415541

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0055003

Then next delve into the basis of where empathy comes from (right supramarginal gyrus). The study below shows what happens when scientist delve into that part of the brain. 

https://www.mpg.de/research/supramarginal-gyrus-empathy

That's a bit to consume for now. Later I'll post competing views on relatability vs. association when it comes to fictional characters. Taken together it builds a scaffold of information that explains why every group likes to see either an association or relation on screen or in their minds eye. 

It's complex human social psychology. 

[Nerdy Luigi 2,065]

I don't see why everyone is getting so butthurt about it at all... I personally see no issues with a transgender video game character at all. It makes literally zero difference.

[FlitterFlutter 1,580]

2 minutes ago, Jeric said:

Disability, mental illness, and race are also widely discussed when it comes to media representation. It basically comes down to a desire to see ourselves in whatever art we consume as part of our many biases. Similarly we also become that which we experience, at least to a small degree. 

Here is some foundational literature on the latter. 

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797611415541

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0055003

Then next delve into the basis of where empathy comes from (right supramarginal gyrus). The study below shows what happens when scientist delve into that part of the brain. 

https://www.mpg.de/research/supramarginal-gyrus-empathy

That's a bit to consume for now. Later I'll post competing views on relatability vs. association when it comes to fictional characters. Taken together it builds a scaffold of information that explains why every group likes to see either an association or relation on screen or in their minds eye. 

It's complex human social psychology. 

 

Mostly, the problem is most people making video games do the topic a horrible disservice. I would rather not see myself at all rather than see myself as nothing more than a minority group to market and pander too. This is especially true with trans people, most trans people I have met and myself included are for all intensive purpose the gender they identify as. They are not a trans girl they are a girl... This fact created an interesting problem.... How do you make a trans character in a video game and write it well? If they make a big spectacle of it, the whole thing comes off a dissentious and pandering. Then if you don't mention it no one even knows they were supposed to be trans in the first place. 

[Mesme Rize 15,683]

As a bisexual myself, i don't really see the need of adding any trans characters in the game, if there really isn't any point to it.

Like, if imagine i play an RPG like Final Fantasy and i get introduced to a new character and that character says "oh and i am transsexual" All i am thinking is "...yeah...and?" What's the point?

 

[Lightwing 12,967]

This is one concept where I'm kind of divided in what I do want. For one thing, I really do like the better representation of how the world is not just straight white cis poeple, which is just an outright lie, and giving more realism to a world. There is a lot of people and many kinds of behaviors to take into consideration; representation of non-straight people comes to my mind when I think of that; which is one reason of why I would like to see a transgender character written correctly...

...And here is where the problem starts. Sadly today we are in an age where it's very easy to fall into the trap of pandering to a group of people to gather support due to either a quick buck or just bad writting. It doesn't happen everytime though, but it happens more than the cases where other groups are written well. But on their defense, writting a transgender character(and any display of minorities, mind  you) is just very difficult:

• Constant reminder of the gender of the character is just bound to annoy people or even leave a negative impression of the character in question. Most of the bigger cases of bad writting of minorities come from just overusage of their identity as a gimmick and representation of their persona, instead of letting their true personality shine. 
• There is also the whole opposite case, which while rare, can still happen. While reminding the audience of who is this character can bring annoyance, just outright denying it can also create another problem, which is simply "Who is this character supossed to be?". For the better or the worse, it would still be a part of their character, and just denying it can be even more harmful than just acknowledging it too much.

A perfect balance of writting such character would be through the portrayal of both the character in question and the world around as actual people and show the world around them actually being... well, the world, instead of just either praising it 24/7 or disliking it 24/7. Don't make them tokens, make them real people. While it's not about transgender people, there is an example of portayal that is brilliant in a game I have played recently, and which I would recommend anyone curious to read:

I will agree in one thing though, it's not 100% needed to portray all the social groups like this, but while they have potential to go the wrong way, there is also potential for great writting and to create relatable characters and show the viewer that things are not what it seems in both senses of the word. I have been playing games since I have use of memory, and while I understand perfectly the fears and thoughts of this by many, I do actually would like to see more risks like this being taken, but actual risks with effort put into them, not just some cheap trick to gather attention from the public. The world is a very wide and different place, after all, and again, I can talk about those cases where the writting and the portrayal were perfect, which made them some of hte most memorable characters I have ever seen in any game or media.

[JonasDarkmane 19,781]

Nah, don't like panderings like that which are forced (because that is what it would be). 

 

If it needs to be stated that a character is trans, I won't play. Joke with it a bit (not making a huge deal) and I'll play. That is why I did not mind my favorite game introducing a trans in their third game, Patapon 3. Miss Covet Hiss 

 

 

 

[Kyoshi Frost Wolf 41,206]

Make it part of a character's story, don't beat everyone over the head with it (that is bad writing no matter the subject) and let it go from there. Pretty simple way to go about it. Yes, some devs would do the whole pandering thing, but I don't think that would be as bad as some make it out to be. There's always a possibility for it to be part of a character, just like any other sexual orientation or gender identity. I personally would give this idea a chance.

[honk friend 1,978]

Adding a trans character for the sake of pandering isn't representation, I can't relate to a trans character if the fact that they're trans is tacked on for pandering purposes, and the entire purpose of trans representation is to give trans ppl well written characters that they can relate to, and that share their struggles. I want more well written lgbt characters even if it means making the pandering business more lucrative.

[TBD 17,252]

meh I don't care, but there's not need to strain it. 

[Catpone Cerberus 23,539]

I feel nothing. I couldn't give lesser crap about the character's gender, or anything in that matter. If character is well written and acts like a person (and has good dialogue (if has dialogue)) , I like it. If not, I don't. 

[SONICchaos 824]

Capcom USA still makes me laugh. Poison originally being a normal woman in Japan but when ported over to the states Capcom USA is like "We cant have people beating up on women! Thats considered rude! Lets change her into a dude!", because you know...hitting a transgender is so much more acceptable than hitting a woman?  

That was in the arcades however. When ported to the SNES, Nintendo I guess had a moment of clarity and is like "woah woah woah. You cant have half naked transgenders running around...turn them into half naked men".

 

This concept of a transgender character became such a controversy that it actually reached back to Capcom Japan where they ran with the idea but stated she "simply tucks her business away to look female". Whatever you say Capcom

Also a bit of clarification. For the sake of you know...sensibilities Poison is officially a transgender in japan while she is a post operation transsexual in USA. Because that makes all the difference you know when it comes to running around the streets beating up everything that moves.

A last bit of info is a character that looks exactly the same to Poison except has red head instead of pink is an enemy called Roxy. She was originally changed to a man as well when ported to the SNES but then was returned to her original incarnation later. Capcom was like "...na we dont need to change her into a transgender too", so she is a normal woman. Why just her...i dunno.

[Jeric 46,848]

On 5/28/2017 at 10:42 PM, Kyoshi said:

Make it part of a character's story, don't beat everyone over the head with it (that is bad writing no matter the subject) and let it go from there.

Key statement here, and something I think others have latched onto. It is how I prefer elements in most fictional worlds. Narrative elements should be in service to character, theme, and story. If you do that you side-step any rational critique related to pandering. 

In the end, complaints of pandering seem to fall into two camps. One would be, "I see x character represents y and deem it pandering as y groups are vocal. Bad!" The other would be, "The character isn't written well, or doesn't seem to fit exactly. It's like it was added just to appease y group." 

There are others, but those shades of discussion are not common. If they create a decent trans, disabled, gay, or whatever character that is well thought out -- people will care less about pandering and celebrate the character instead of the traits. At the same time, those that see themselves in the character will find satisfaction. 

The best result would probably be from a player who isn't trans finding that they somehow relate to the character in other ways, or find that the character invokes a sense of inspiration independent of being transgender. An example of the later is that I don't relate to Picard, but I find him inspirational. If that happens, chances are that a worthwhile character was created that fits the overarching theme and story of the game.