S07:E14 - Fame and Misfortune

[SugarCoatxMarblePie 701]

Just now, AlexanderThrond said:

I liked "Slice of Life" because there was usually an in-universe joke or at least a degree of surrealism to balance out the fandom references, and "Stranger than Fanfiction" because it kept itself entirely in-universe. I didn't really like "Fame and Misfortune" because the dialogue doesn't match the situation, to the degree that it's clearly an unsubtle allegory for people talking about fiction. 

I think we're at an impasse here if you're equating harsh wording in posts on a fan forum to harassment of the characters (who here stand in for the writers). I don't find @Dark Qiviut's aggressive phrasing worthy of mockery, and that's part of why this episode wasn't funny to me. 

Also, of course the episode can't be objectively bad, because "good" and "bad" are inherently subjective judgments when it comes to art and entertainment. 

 

 

No art can be objectively bad, like you draw a singular line, then compare it to a Dali painting. One is objectively worse. Or like you draw a sandwich just a sandwich then say its representative of something entirely unrelated no one could have figured it out on their own.

Overall we can see from the votes above the episode had more hits than misses. So it has more enjoyment than unenjoyment. Which means it accomplished a bit of its purpose, appeal to a demographic. Some shows can't even do that.

[CypherHoof 26,482]

Just now, SugarCoatxMarblePie said:

No art can be objectively bad, like you draw a singular line, then compare it to a Dali painting. One is objectively worse. Or like you draw a sandwich just a sandwich then say its representative of something entirely unrelated no one could have figured it out on their own.

Overall we can see from the votes above the episode had more hits than misses. So it has more enjoyment than unenjoyment. Which means it accomplished a bit of its purpose, appeal to a demographic. Some shows can't even do that.

Have to wonder how much of that is schadenfreude though; "it isn't really about ME, its about THEM so I can laugh at THEM"..... even when a quick look at posts from a few years ago and, yeah, it was you

[Jeric 46,850]

1 minute ago, AlexanderThrond said:

Also, of course the episode can't be objectively bad, because "good" and "bad" are inherently subjective judgments when it comes to art and entertainment. 

In general I agree with this completely, though there are examples of artistic failures at a technical level -- so if one focused on technique and intent I suppose you could grade something objectively. As far as pony, it's honestly something that is almost impossible to do with a cartoon episode. 

[Thrond 3,263]

1 hour ago, CypherHoof said:

I think there are plenty of reasons to hate him.

Personally? I look at how badly Fluttershy was neglected as a filly, look at things like @Queen Cassie's awesome PA where she speculates that Flutters is actually an orphan...  Then Flutter Brutter. I am sitting thinking "hold on, what happened here? they seem perfectly fine parents, why in Equestria....." and then Zephyr breezes in and it clicks.  Flutters is the second child in a modest working family, where there is never quite enough left over for her - because Zephyr always got the lion's share and squandered it.  Worse yet, times an older brother SHOULD have been there for her, Rainbow Dash had to fill in the gap, because her brother was so self-centered he wasn't - and while RD's parents were enthusiastic fans of their child, Fluttershy's parents were probably just happy that at least ONE of their children wasn't demanding and attention seeking all the time.

So.. yeah. Zeph, please die in a fire. seriously.

 

Zephyr is the second child. 

[CypherHoof 26,482]

Just now, AlexanderThrond said:

Zephyr is the second child. 

Hmm. That puts a different spin on it then.   So, he is just a jerk, and I have to still wonder why Fluttershy?

[Jeric 46,850]

1 minute ago, SugarCoatxMarblePie said:

. Or like you draw a sandwich just a sandwich then say its representative of something entirely unrelated no one could have figured it out on their own.

Eh. Pollack kinda represents that, and I don't think it's fair to say it's objectively bad. In fact, some famous Expressionist art can't be pinned down to what the artist was hoping to convey. It's occasionally the point. 

In this episode, during the song, there were moments that the mouth animations didn't sync right. That's an example of bad technique that could be seen as objectively bad. 

[Sparklefan1234 169,647]

Just now, Jeric said:

In this episode, during the song, there were moments that the mouth animations didn't sync right. That's an example of bad technique that could be seen as objectively bad. 

 

I noticed that, too. It's weird someone didn't catch that.

[Batbrony 16,051]

5 minutes ago, Jeric said:

In general I agree with this completely, though there are examples of artistic failures at a technical level -- so if one focused on technique and intent I suppose you could grade something objectively. As far as pony, it's honestly something that is almost impossible to do with a cartoon episode. 

Almost... there are of course exceptions to this rule.

Both good, if not downright amazing...

And, well, bad, like...

[Jeric 46,850]

1 minute ago, CypherHoof said:

Hmm. That puts a different spin on it then.   So, he is just a jerk, and I have to still wonder why Fluttershy?

Read up on some Erikson. He had a few ideas that may apply. Nature vs. Nurture stuff. 

[Music Chart Fan 819]

2 hours ago, Jeric said:

I wouldn't go that far. Obviously when pressed for time they can't delve into the complexity of each individual fan representation, but what they can do, and what they did do, is take an accurate snapshot of things fans have done or said that have perplexed the staff over the years.

...

This wasn't an episode that was supposed to address all aspects of the fandom to provide a balanced perspective, it was a platform to touch on the more perplexing moments that the staff have experienced over the years. And I'm honestly fine with that. 

12 minutes ago, Truffles said:

I can't argue that the things they portrayed haven't happened in the fan community. And I admit that as they hit on each one of them, I laughed because I've seen it myself. But it's still a little shallow even if it is an accurate rendering, especially because it's first airing was right after a really fulfilling and emotional episode. It was kind of like following up a full-course meal with a red hot gumball - it's fun at first for the shock value but leaves one feeling a little empty on repeated viewings.

I wouldn't deny that most of the complaints or behaviors alluded to in the episode have happened in the fandom in some capacity, but I think damage can still be done by drawing an incomplete, unrepresentative, or one-sided picture. Even if this episode's creators intended for the ponies' harassing and insufferable behavior in the episode to represent only isolated incidents (which I'm not sure that that's the case), there are a lot of people who seem to believe that the ponies' behavior in this episode is a realistic depiction of a large part of the fandom. In other words, they seem to believe that a large part of the fandom, including people who critically analyze the show, really act just like the ponies in this episode. And as I discussed in my previous post, my concern is that some of those people, after seeing this episode, will feel justified and vindicated in stifling, stigmatizing, and attacking others who express dissenting or critical opinions about the show.

 

8 minutes ago, SugarCoatxMarblePie said:

Overall we can see from the votes above the episode had more hits than misses. So it has more enjoyment than unenjoyment. Which means it accomplished a bit of its purpose, appeal to a demographic. Some shows can't even do that.

Regarding this, I would give a disclaimer that I've given to others before: I don't think that the results of a poll in an episode topic like this should be considered a particularly accurate representation of what the fandom at large, or even members of MLP Forums at large, think of the episode. Whatever the results are, they're bound to be skewed by the fact that there will be a lot of people who haven't seen the poll, people who aren't able to convert their feelings on the episode to a 1-5 scale in order to vote in the poll, people who have opinions of the episode but don't see much value or point in voting in the poll, etc. So, as a general rule, I wouldn't base any firm conclusions just on the results of a poll like this one.

[SugarCoatxMarblePie 701]

16 minutes ago, Jeric said:

Eh. Pollack kinda represents that, and I don't think it's fair to say it's objectively bad. In fact, some famous Expressionist art can't be pinned down to what the artist was hoping to convey. It's occasionally the point. 

In this episode, during the song, there were moments that the mouth animations didn't sync right. That's an example of bad technique that could be seen as objectively bad. 

That's like eating a cake and its delicious but accidentally had a cherry stem in it, minor issue. We would need to weigh velocities of all good and bad and to all audience members, so its just better to check what kind of audience enjoyed it vs didn't enjoy it and weigh each of those. More people enjoyed it, and the ones who enjoyed it are more reasonable than the ones who didn't enjoy it. Both sides could have perceptional biases. The ep did convey its point well though, if not people would be more often noting how the message was poorly said or such. Instead we get people mad because 'they were mean to muh ponies!' or because 'Hasbro is being rude to us!' which means they missed the point. Which means their negative doesn't count as much because they misunderstood it, but still partially counts because it wasn't showing itself well enough to appeal to them.

 

In a way its like food, some people just never ever ever try sour food. Or spicy food or pickled food etc. That's them missing out, they can't objectively say the food is bad. Plenty are enjoying it. Like how the Simpsons made fun of how they went to Japan just to try Japan's version of Western food. They could say ew Japanese food is gross 0/10. Doesn't mean their opinion means anything to those who enjoy the food already, and saying its bad because to them it tastes bad, that's just them not being used to it. So saying its objectively bad is objectively wrong, it has objective value.

7 minutes ago, Music Chart Fan said:

Regarding this, I would give a disclaimer that I've given to others before: I don't think that the results of a poll in an episode topic like this should be considered a particularly accurate representation of what the fandom at large, or even members of MLP Forums at large, think of the episode. Whatever the results are, they're bound to be skewed by the fact that there will be a lot of people who haven't seen the poll, people who aren't able to convert their feelings on the episode to a 1-5 scale in order to vote in the poll, people who have opinions of the episode but don't see much value or point in voting in the poll, etc. So, as a general rule, I wouldn't base any firm conclusions just on the results of a poll like this one.

Technically yeah. But because we are not having a huge science over this, and because its what I have seen elsewhere I am prone to thinking its a healthy representation. I may very well be wrong. But in the objective case of good art being perceived poorly, is that we would expect those that do enjoy the art, if they understands the intent, that it is possible to understand the intent thus they have more weight to it than those misunderstanding the episode. Tho it could be an expressional flaw on the writer's part, the fact they get side-stepped by their own emotional needs does prove its more on them being silly than the show. Like if I mention a study that offends a demographic of people but its true, then some people end up focusing more on the emotional aspect and ignore the technical aspect. It doesn't mean it was a bad study, it means the audience isn't good enough. But this being a show they are to blame somewhat because ya know, appealing to demographics being valued. However critics gonna criticize, and etc, so they might've been displeased with any other episode anyways if they more often than not criticize the show, and this could give them anger and the show more negative attention, which gives more optimists more chances to fight the negativity which means if anything, making the show fan demographic more optimistic about the show which is a good thing, but this isn't a strict possibility, and theres more possibilities we could prolly get into.

Edited August 13, 2017 by SugarCoatxMarblePie

[Jeric 46,850]

5 minutes ago, SugarCoatxMarblePie said:

That's like eating a cake and its delicious but accidentally had a cherry stem in it, minor issue.

Exactly. The cake, while still delicious, did have an objective flaw in it. There are some techniques than can be graded. It's weight and impact to the overall piece is still subjective. 

Basically, I'm saying it's more complicated than nothing objective or nothing's subjective. 

[GrimGrimoire 4,973]

4 hours ago, Dark Qiviut said:

Fame is how NOT to write a FIM meta episode. Rather than welcoming, the atmosphere's really mean-spirited, and every adult portrayed here aside from the RM7 is a stereotype, a jerk, or both.

Much like a large part of the fandom itself.

Everyone has their own opinion about what makes the show good, what characters they like, what characters they don't care for, what they want to see more of, stuff they just don't care at all about.... etc... pretty much how any show is.

However, for a certain amount of the fandom, they just seem to think only their opinion matters, and as such if it does not fall into that vision, that it somehow inherently makes the show worse and they have to let everyone know about it. I have seen and been involved in several "conversations" with this type of individual, and you can't help but feel like they are not talking to you, so much as talking down to you... as if your opinion is not only pointless, but in truth damaging to what they see as the "ultimate truth" when it comes to the show and they are desperately trying to make you understand that.

The fandom is really great and supportive about the show, but there are far too many of them that seem to think only their vision is the accurate one. They take the show far too seriously in such a way that they forget or just plain disregard that the show is made by ALL OF US and not just their select groups.. and they very often come off as "jerks" when trying to push their opinions. It was mean spirited... because the fandom is very often mean spirited itself... pretty much like every modern day fandom actually.

[Zachary 5,521]

I really don't like that Episode.

Really like the song but I hate the Part where Rarity being Stressed.

At least I got to see Toola Roola and Coconut Cream.

4/10

[SugarCoatxMarblePie 701]

10 minutes ago, Jeric said:

Exactly. The cake, while still delicious, did have an objective flaw in it. There are some techniques than can be graded. It's weight and impact to the overall piece is still subjective. 

Basically, I'm saying it's more complicated than nothing objective or nothing's subjective. 

If one wanted to they could measure each, it'd require far more science than would be reasonable tho lol. And science would likely need to have a full plan in advance to record reactions and stuff. But this episode was well conveyed for me. Others, perhaps not, but so far the people who are mad at it seem to be projecting or misunderstanding the episode. So if someone understands it and its right just means the others have bad perspective. Like when Bob Dylan changed music genres it made alot of their fans angry, but its objectively speaking good music still.

Edited August 13, 2017 by SugarCoatxMarblePie

[Hierok 11,831]

1 hour ago, Steve Piranha said:

Still, with so many rabid fans it made fun off, I've expected Twilicorn levels of freakout  

Yeah, but I think they are there, but not so many. 

[Truffles 2,033]

1 hour ago, AlexanderThrond said:

I liked "Slice of Life" because there was usually an in-universe joke or at least a degree of surrealism to balance out the fandom references, and "Stranger than Fanfiction" because it kept itself entirely in-universe. I didn't really like "Fame and Misfortune" because the dialogue doesn't match the situation, to the degree that it's clearly an unsubtle allegory for people talking about fiction.

That brings up another thing that I found unusual: There's this one moment where a pony fan says Twilight's "character" was more interesting in Canterlot. His saying that would make sense in the context of their world, since he was referring to her "character" in the journal. But Twilight's response took me out of the story:

She shouts back to him that she's a real pony and not a character, and while that may be true from her perspective, it's not true for us - she is most definitely a fictional character - whose sole purpose is to educate and entertain us viewers. Not a bad calling in life (as far as life of fictional characters go), but she'd be floored if she could see the true nature of her universe. 

 

50 minutes ago, Music Chart Fan said:

Even if this episode's creators intended for the ponies' harassing and insufferable behavior in the episode to represent only isolated incidents (which I'm not sure that that's the case), there are a lot of people who seem to believe that the ponies' behavior in this episode is a realistic depiction of a large part of the fandom. In other words, they seem to believe that a large part of the fandom, including people who critically analyze the show, really act just like the ponies in this episode.

Many in the fandom hated the portrayal of the Canterlot delegates in "Princess Spike," and that's what I'm using as a baseline in to how I see these journal fans coming at the Mane 6 with questions and insults. Those delegates were the thing I hated most about that episode, and even if it turned out they were based on the interactions with real-life attendees at a pony con, somehow I don't think that would endear them to me any further. (Though like now I guess I'd laugh if I recognized anything that stood out.) They were basically there to bend the plot into a way that worked for Spike to do his thing and be a schmuck in that episode.

So the same goes for the journal fans in this episode here - if any of them had more depth, the plot would have resolved itself sooner than when it did with Toola and Coconut being the only ones who understood what the journal was really for.

[Ganondox 899]

6 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

You got it backwards. Starlight is the stand-in. And even though he is in the journals, he has his fame and pony fans handled. Mane 6 could have used a bit of Spike life coaching. Anyway, have you seen the trailer for the new episode? I have a pretty good idea why he was missing.

 

No, I'm not. I'm saying shes NOT a stand-in because Spike was never meant for the role in the first place as it wouldn't have worked for him, and you're trying to place Spike as a stand-in when you assume that she was his stand-in. 

[Phirun Natela 77]

Today I heard something new and unmemorable.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Phirun Natela

[Silver Note 735]

I think this has to be my favorite episode out of the whole show. Basically, this is the show telling us to except the Mane 6 as they are. Sure, the writers have flaws. Sure, the show isn't perfect. This is everyone who works hard to make this show telling us to focus on what's good about the show, the Mane 6 and their strengths. 

This is basically this episode:

[Ganondox 899]

3 hours ago, Amys-pmvs said:

Well its good to remind us of the old episodes but can we get over twicorn

No. 

[Goat-kun 2,527]

16 minutes ago, Ganondox said:

No, I'm not. I'm saying shes NOT a stand-in because Spike was never meant for the role in the first place as it wouldn't have worked for him, and you're trying to place Spike as a stand-in when you assume that she was his stand-in. 

How do you know he was never meant to be in that role? You could remove Starlight from the episode entirely and it wouldn't change anything. The two fillies could come to Mane 6 of their own and no one would notice some particular void within the cast. Spike would provide better insight into the situation along with his humor. Of course, you wouldn't get that outside perspective, but was that outside perspective relevant? No, it wasn't. Besides, a couple more inconsistencies here and there wouldn't mean a thing in this episode.

[Ganondox 899]

On 2017-08-13 at 9:47 PM, Phirun Natela said:

Dont know what you're smoking, but Spike wouldve fit sooo much better. 

Are you capable of expressing your opinions without resulting to insults?

On 2017-08-13 at 10:10 PM, Goat-kun said:

How do you know he was never meant to be in that role? You could remove Starlight from the episode entirely and it wouldn't change anything. The two fillies could come to Mane 6 of their own and no one would notice some particular void within the cast. Spike would provide better insight into the situation along with his humor. Of course, you wouldn't get that outside perspective, but was that outside perspective relevant? No, it wasn't. Besides, a couple more inconsistencies here and there wouldn't mean a thing in this episode.

 

And how that you know he was? The point is that the only reason Starlight can fill the role she did is because she wasn't in the journal, she didn't even know it existed. They could have given a "different" role to Spike and reshaped the episode around that, but they didn't. 

No, you can't just remove Starlight, her outside perspective was the driving force behind all the changes. Of course they could rework the episode to not include her, but they didn't. 

On 2017-08-13 at 7:00 PM, CypherHoof said:

I think there are plenty of reasons to hate him.

Personally? I look at how badly Fluttershy was neglected as a filly, look at things like @Queen Cassie's awesome PA where she speculates that Flutters is actually an orphan...  Then Flutter Brutter. I am sitting thinking "hold on, what happened here? they seem perfectly fine parents, why in Equestria....." and then Zephyr breezes in and it clicks.  Flutters is the second child in a modest working family, where there is never quite enough left over for her - because Zephyr always got the lion's share and squandered it.  Worse yet, times an older brother SHOULD have been there for her, Rainbow Dash had to fill in the gap, because her brother was so self-centered he wasn't - and while RD's parents were enthusiastic fans of their child, Fluttershy's parents were probably just happy that at least ONE of their children wasn't demanding and attention seeking all the time.

So.. yeah. Zeph, please die in a fire. seriously.

 

The one problem with your analysis is that Fluttershy is the older sibling. 

[Goat-kun 2,527]

16 minutes ago, Ganondox said:

And how that you know he was? The point is that the only reason Starlight can fill the role she did is because she wasn't in the journal, she didn't even know it existed. They could have given a "different" role to Spike and reshaped the episode around that, but they didn't. 

No, you can't just remove Starlight, her outside perspective was the driving force behind all the changes. Of course they could rework the episode to not include her, but they didn't. 

A reasonable doubt, wouldn't you agree? Starlight was not the driving force but a passive bystander with but a few token duties separating her from a pot plant. The audience themselves could have filled that role. Anything could have filled that role, including Spike. It's not the involvement with the Journal that matters but that he would not be affected by the crowd the same way as Mane 6 and could thus still serve as the detached dragon on Twilight's back commenting on the situation. It wouldn't be the first time.

[CypherHoof 26,482]

25 minutes ago, Ganondox said:

The one problem with your analysis is that Fluttershy is the older sibling. 

Yup. AlexanderThrond pointed that out a couple of hours ago, which leaves me wondering why Flutters was so neglected?

Zeph is still a jerk of course, but less of a one if he was too young to be responsible...