news ToonKriticY2K and accusations of sexual misconduct

[Jeric 46,890]

1 hour ago, PathfinderCS said:

Some wise words from the good doctor. Maybe not everyone will agree, but he words do hold a ring of truth. Not necessarily forgiveness of Toon himself, but of something else...

 

He presents two options, drink the poison or forgive for yourself. He fails to understand that there is a third option ... simply say burn in hell and walk away without giving him a second thought. I don't personally believe in unearned forgiveness ... but this will be the last thought I give to that PoS. 

[Will Guide 21,376]

Just now, Jeric said:

He presents two options, drink the poison or forgive for yourself. He fails to understand that there is a third option ... simply say burn in hell and walk away without giving him a second thought. 

Your post confuses me. Please explain the differences between the 3 options?

Edited January 30, 2018 by WiiGuy2014

[Jeric 46,890]

Just now, WiiGuy2014 said:

Your post confuses me. Please explain the differences between the 3 options?

1. Be bitter and angry and let it fester 

2. Forgive so you can move on. 

3. Don't forgive, call it like you feel it, and move forward without wasting mental and emotional energy on it. 

[Ashen Pathfinder 16,165]

2 minutes ago, Jeric said:

He presents two options, drink the poison or forgive for yourself. He fails to understand that there is a third option ... simply say burn in hell and walk away without giving him a second thought. I don't personally believe in unearned forgiveness ... but this will be the last thought I give to that PoS. 

All fair; of course. I will agree that it feels like that while Dr. Wolf's intentions are sound, he doesn't really address that not everyone can deal with such a traumatic event the same way. While the method he describes can and will work for some, not everyone can deal with it like that and are just fine with calling it like they see it, and moving on with their lives.

[Yakamaru 3,136]

What the hell is this thread?

He knows it's ethically, morally and legally wrong do anything sexual in nature with minors, unless you're a nurse teaching about it. At a school. With a certificate or something similar.

And yet, he went for it anyway. And going by the video, this isn't the first instance either. I guess he enjoys black people in prison so much?

Don't do anything sexual in nature with minors. Period.

As a legal adult it's your moral and ethical responsibility to make sure you conduct and behave yourself accordingly.

School systems are failing hard, it seems. Creates all sorts of degenerates..

Edited January 30, 2018 by Yakamaru

[Dark Qiviut 22,656]

17 minutes ago, PathfinderCS said:

All fair; of course. I will agree that it feels like that while Dr. Wolf's intentions are sound, he doesn't really address that not everyone can deal with such a traumatic event the same way. While the method he describes can and will work for some, not everyone can deal with it like that and are just fine with calling it like they see it, and moving on with their lives.

That's something neither Wolf nor most of us can manage, I'm afraid. The trauma these girls experienced over the years at his hands and manipulation is beyond most of our imagination, and this scandal is very foreign territory in the brony fandom. He can't speak for TK's victims, but he can speak for himself, and using forgiveness in a very religious sense allows him to manage the issue constructively.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Dark Qiviut

[King of Canterlot 9,609]

Its sad that that girl had to go through all of that, but its still infuriating that he would think that its perfectly ok to have online sexual relations with a 14-15 year old girl, it doesn't matter that shes not from the U.S or that the age of consent is 12 in the Philippians, if your having relationships like that with anyone underage you should know that its wrong, you shouldn't have to be told by your friends that its wrong. That is what is so disgusting about it, that and the fact that this went on for well over a year.     

[PoisonClaw 8,175]

I am beyond disgusted. The further and further down this rabbit hole I look, the more and more things I learn about this man that makes me wish he spends the rest of his life behind bars. Which won't even be that long considering what they do to sexual predators in prison.

In order to prevent myself from devolving into an anger-fueled rant, I will just say that the women he manipulated and abused were incredibly brave to come forward about all this. I can't say I know personally what horrors they've had to experience and the scars it's inflicted upon them, but I do empathize that it couldn't have been easy to bear and I pray they get all the help and support they need.    

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Dark Qiviut said:

That's something neither Wolf nor most of us can manage, I'm afraid. The trauma these girls experienced over the years at his hands and manipulation is beyond most of our imagination, and this scandal is very foreign territory in the brony fandom. He can't speak for TK's victims, but he can speak for himself, and using forgiveness in a very religious sense allows him to manage the issue constructively.

As someone who has been an admin on a few brony sites... Sorry to say it's not that foreign, it's just regularly brushed under the rug and avoided because people fear talking about it will make the whole fandom look bad. I had to ban quite a few people for sexual harassment on all the sites I worked on, and many girls in this fandom regularly tell me about how they feel unsafe within the MLP fandom.

Sorry to burst the illusion, but this is far from foreign, it's a problem that's been around for a while and it's clearly not a shrinking one either. I get we'd all like to believe this fandom is special and avoids these things, but the fact is you get a fandom that is over 80% male with a lot of social awkwardness and sexual harassment is bound to happen. It's only bound to happen more when people try to bury it and brush it under the rug for fear that it will make the fandom look bad. There have been numerous negative incidents in the critic community alone in the past few years, not necessarily sexual harassment but obvious problems, from Lily Peet to ILoveKimPossible, the critic circle is clearly very toxic at the moment and needs some major bullshit busting.

Bronies are susceptible to all the same things as any other fandom on the internet, pretending they aren't only makes you look foolish. This isn't the first report of sexual harassment and it won't be the last either.

The first step to finding the solution is admitting there is a problem.

 

That being said: there's nothing constructive here to manage. Toon should turn himself in, face the consequences and he should never be given a chance to harm a child ever again. He does not warrant forgiveness. He warrants only tolerance of his existence after he serves his time and pays the punishment he is given. Only then can he potentially even begin the path to redemption, but given that this show is targeted at children and his crimes involved a child, he should be barred from having any kind of platform in this fandom if he is convicted.

[Nightfall Gloam 18,295]

I've already said a lot of how I feel about this on other websites and videos, but, I'll say it again, it has made me feel really upset and it only confirmed the suspicions I was having for a while during the end of last year and the start of this year that the fandom has an issue with pedophiles... Personally, I feel like we do as a fandom need to do something to prevent incidents like this as much as possible, though I don't have any ideas for solutions that could seriously work, especially when sometimes you might not even know when someone IS a pedophile until it is too late unfortunately...

[Guest]

Just now, Nightfall Gloam said:

I've already said a lot of how I feel about this on other websites and videos, but, I'll say it again, it has made me feel really upset and it only confirmed the suspicions I was having for a while during the end of last year and the start of this year that the fandom has an issue with pedophiles... Personally, I feel like we do as a fandom need to do something to prevent incidents like this as much as possible, though I don't have any ideas for solutions that could seriously work, especially when sometimes you might not even know when someone IS a pedophile until it is too late unfortunately...

Like I said, the first step is admitting there is a problem. This fandom is not perfect and it's a prime breeding ground for sexual predators and we need to recognize and acknowledge that. We need to be ready to call someone out and not fear the fandom looking bad for pedophiles or sexual predators being exposed within the fandom.

Admitting a real danger exists is step one. Step two is encouraging people to come forward regardless of how it makes the fandom look. We want people to see that this fandom takes these matters seriously and that they will take action regardless of circumstance. I myself have been sexually harassed many times in this fandom, and have had to deal with people sexually harassing others in it. This fandom is not any less susceptible than any other to these issues.

[Jeric 46,890]

43 minutes ago, Key Sharkz said:

Like I said, the first step is admitting there is a problem. This fandom is not perfect and it's a prime breeding ground for sexual predators and we need to recognize and acknowledge that. We need to be ready to call someone out and not fear the fandom looking bad for pedophiles or sexual predators being exposed within the fandom.

Admitting a real danger exists is step one. Step two is encouraging people to come forward regardless of how it makes the fandom look. We want people to see that this fandom takes these matters seriously and that they will take action regardless of circumstance. I myself have been sexually harassed many times in this fandom, and have had to deal with people sexually harassing others in it. This fandom is not any less susceptible than any other to these issues.

Extremely valid points. There is a recent topic tangentially discussing the potential of this issue on MLPF here. I think that some of the comments seen here definitely highlight a few concerns with silence. 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Jeric said:

Extremely valid points. There is a recent topic tangentially discussing the potential of this issue on MLPF here. I think that some of the comments seen here definitely highlight a few concerns with silence. 

I'll be blunt and reveal something I was told to "keep quiet" about when I worked for some of those sites which will remain nameless... When I encountered such things... I was explicitly told to keep quiet about them. The primary focus was always to silence them quietly and not let the users know. Now with regular discipline, I understood because a user's discipline is between them and the staff, but in this case where someone has committed sexual misconduct when there are children involved it's different because usually if there's one, there's more. And many of these people met up and went to cons with other people but we were even told to tell the victims to keep quiet about it. Now I understand innocent until proven guilty, but this tactic seemed to more or less shame victims and discourage them from coming forward at all.

I always suggested the middle of the road option: We simply keep quiet in public and report it to the police. That was discouraged by the staff of those sites as well. When I asked why, the answer I was given shocked me: because it would make the site look bad if they caught sexual predators on the site. I drew the line when we discovered one in our own staff and they had tons of evidence but they let the staff member bully his own victims into hushing up and then dropped the matter, allowing him to get away without ANY consequences. Why? Because god forbid we let the site look bad!

This was when I started to realize the prevailing mentality with the brony fandom is to keep things quiet unless they are put in a position where it's impossible. Protect the image of the fandom at all costs. This is a losing attitude and it only damages the fandom more.

I'll at least give a semi happy ending here and say that I didn't stand for it. The moment the staff wasn't looking, I contacted people to get the police involved. I told all of the people who worked directly under me to do the same and never tolerate this bullshit.

I wish I could say bronies proved better than other fandoms but the reality is... They proved no better or no worse. They react like any other fandom. However, because of that we basically need to acknowledge that we can't count on the fandom to report these things, so we have to be pro-active ourselves to do something about it. When you have a fandom that has children in it, you should always assume this is happening. Always be prepared to handle it. Don't go around false accusing, but ALWAYS be ready. When this stuff goes down, the image of the fandom should not even be a concern.

[RDDash 19,283]

It would seem that at this point Dr Wolf is the only one with a voice of reason in this conflict. Yes Toonkritick is a criminal, and yes what he did was wrong, however all I see is the mob with torches who just want to burn a witch on the stake. To a certain extent I feel disgusted with the community.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Rebellious Rainbow

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Rebellious Rainbow said:

It would seem that at this point Dr Wolf is the only one with a voice of reason in this conflict. Yes Toonkritick is a criminal, and yes what he did was wrong, however all I see is the mob with torches who just want to burn a witch on the stake

Sorry, I don't see "forgiveness" as reasonable or people calling for justice as unreasonable. The guy engaged in sexual misconduct with a child and then instead of turning himself in like he said he would, he deleted everything on the internet and is trying to hide to avoid getting caught. People are calling for him to turn himself in and for justice to be served to the victim.

Stop me at the part where it sounds unreasonable.

Dr. Wolf I get is trying to be more positive about this, but his opinion honestly is misguided. The guy is more or less trying to get us all to brush it under the rug and give the guy forgiveness. Sorry but that's not going to happen, and it should not even be suggested until Toon TURNS HIMSELF IN AND SERVES HIS PUNISHMENT. He should take his lumps THEN work toward forgiveness, however why should he get any forgiveness when he is running away? Trying to avoid serving his punishment? Trying to escape his fate? That says Toon does not feel remorseful for what he did. He is only remorseful that he got caught. If he wants forgiveness, he needs to come forward, turn himself in and face his punishment for it.

Offering forgiveness before he has done any of that is simply lunacy.

 

Also the term "burn a witch at the stake" doesn't apply here. Do you know what a witch was? A witch was someone who was falsely accused of using magic. All witches were innocent. Literally all of them. When we use the term "witch hunt" we're referring to the idea of trying to take anyone out regardless of their guilt being proven or not.

In this case, we have confirmed Toon did indeed do this. That makes it not a witch hunt. It makes it a hunt for justice. A victim was wronged and people are calling for the person who did it to serve his time.

Be disgusted in the people who are trying to brush it under the rug.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Guest
added

[RDDash 19,283]

@Key Sharkz

Forgive for your own sake, not specifically for the sake of the person you hate, that is his words. Simply put it he didn't said we should forgive Toon, he said that this hatred shouldn't consume our lives because this would be extremely unhealthy.

No offense but I really dislike those so called victims who would falsely accuse the person of rape and molestation, and guess what in our today culture it's so easy to shame a white heterosexual male.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Rebellious Rainbow

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Rebellious Rainbow said:

Forgive for your own sake, not specifically for the sake of the person you hate, that is his words. Simply put it he didn't said we should forgive Toon, he said that this hatred shouldn't consume our lives because this would be extremely unhealthy.

Except that's not the only option. Pretty sure most people have not forgiven Hitler or Stalin but their lives are not consumed by hatred. So that being said he does not need to be forgiven for people to move on. He just needs to be punished, people are calling for his punishment when that happens simply move on, but forgiveness is unnecessary. I dislike a lot of people but despite not forgiving them it doesn't consume my life. Wolf is trying to imply that the only way to move on is forgiveness, but that's simply not true. I despise tons of criminals and have never and will never forgive them, but I don't spend my life wasting away with hatred.

3 minutes ago, Rebellious Rainbow said:

No offense but I really dislike those so called victims who would falsely accuse the person of rape and molestation, and guess what in our today culture it's so easy to shame a white heterosexual male.

Don't mistake me. I am adamantly against the false accusations and even the bullshit that SJWs are pulling. However, this has nothing to do with that. This guy openly admitted what he did. He is guilty by his own admission. That crap is not even relevant here.

[Jeric 46,890]

2 hours ago, Key Sharkz said:

Don't mistake me. I am adamantly against the false accusations and even the bullshit that SJWs are pulling. However, this has nothing to do with that. This guy openly admitted what he did. He is guilty by his own admission. That crap is not even relevant here.

Agreed. It is far far too easy to accuse without evidence, so absent enough evidence, I try and reserve judgement. Sometimes this can be difficult because it's a highly emotional subject, but I've seen people go down over distorted truths made to take a person's bad judgement and twist it into something worse. Accusations are not enough for me to demand justice. Proof is. That's reasonable. 

However, when the evidence is strong, and in this case it doesn't get much stronger, I will not fault public pressure and accountability. I've already mentioned one half of my view on forgiveness, that I don't give it unearned. I'm quick to forgive, but until I see actions beyond simply apologies to atone ... any forgiveness is hollow. 

[Guest]

Just now, Jeric said:

Agreed. It is far far too easy to accuse without evidence, so absent enough evidence, I try and reserve judgement. Sometimes this can be difficult because it's a highly emotional subject, but I've seen people go down over distorted truths made to take a person's bad judgement and twist it into something worse. Accusations are not enough for me to demand justice. Proof is. That's reasonable. 

However, when the evidence is strong, and in this case it doesn't get much stronger, I will not fault public pressure and accountability. I've already mentioned one half of my view on forgiveness, that I don't give it unearned. I'm quick to forgive, but until I see actions beyond simply apologies to atone ... any forgiveness is hollow. 

Forgiveness can not be achieved from me until someone pays the price and accepts their punishment.

[Jeric 46,890]

One reaction that I do find puzzling that I've seen mentioned would be those that apparently have asked the analysis community what they did to help ToonKritic. Help him with what exactly? Is that to suggest his actions are a result of depression and not stepping in caused the predatory behavior? Or, help him overcome his predatory predilections? That confuses me ... unless I'm missing something. 

[12345678 9,962]

36 minutes ago, Jeric said:

One reaction that I do find puzzling that I've seen mentioned would be those that apparently have asked the analysis community what they did to help ToonKritic. Help him with what exactly? Is that to suggest his actions are a result of depression and not stepping in caused the predatory behavior? Or, help him overcome his predatory predilections? That confuses me ... unless I'm missing something. 

I’m pretty sure those people are referencing Toon’s depression. But that being said, asking the question of what they did to help him does seem to imply that everything he did was done because of his depression. Which I just can’t buy by any stretch. He was sexually role playing and manipulating a 14 year old girl for over a year. During this time (based on the screenshots of his chats with her) he even admits that he is a pedophile. Make no mistake. He was completely aware that what he was doing was wrong and illegal the whole time. Not to mention the dozens of other people who have come out saying they have been victimized by Toon as well. There are absolutely no excuses here. There is absolutely no justification here. These people probably don’t mean that, but the implications are there. 

[KillerKingBakudan 702]

11 hours ago, Jeric said:

He presents two options, drink the poison or forgive for yourself. He fails to understand that there is a third option ... simply say burn in hell and walk away without giving him a second thought. I don't personally believe in unearned forgiveness ... but this will be the last thought I give to that PoS. 

And with this, Doc Wolf has just lost a subscriber. I won't continue watching somebody who doesn't have a clue.

I've written off three people in my own family. THREE. And after several years of cutting off all contact with them, my life couldn't be happier. If I can refuse to forgive, I can certainly wish the worst for this pedo bastard and move on.

Edited January 30, 2018 by KillerKingBakudan

[Adamgreen 1,130]

I never known Toonkritic other than the few collabs he had done with other analyst. But what he did was not a mistake. It was a crime. Even if he knows it's a crime, that is not an excuse to defend yourself. Doing the things you had done for a long while with that type of mindset is not a mistake.

His personality was questionable enough, showing his true colors makes it all disgusting as the result. I'm glad that I wasn't his fan to begin with. At least i don't need to feel the feeling of betrayal again of someone I had looked up to.

Manipulation, sexual harassment, lying, these 3 things Toon had done should not deserve forgiveness. He could suffer the consequences for all I care and live with it till the end of his time.

Or go by the traditions, in prison and rot there. That work too.

 

[Varrack 1,080]

There are other predatory figures out there, and in the fandom. Don't let this incident make you assume that it's isolated; it's not. There very well could be other well-known horsefamous people with secrets that could land them in trouble like this. It's easy to put put this off as one crazy event that won't happen again, but this is a normalcy bias tendency we all have and doesn't reflect reality.

The Oxford definition of forgiveness is to "stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake." It is not about condoning an individual's actions; rather, it is about releasing your hurt from it. Therefore, it should be everyone's obligation to forgive, as it repairs ourselves and has nothing to do with the other individual.

Forgive not because the other person deserves redemption, but because you deserve freedom.

[Jeric 46,890]

51 minutes ago, Varrack said:

There are other predatory figures out there, and in the fandom. Don't let this incident make you assume that it's isolated; it's not. There very well could be other well-known horsefamous people with secrets that could land them in trouble like this. It's easy to put put this off as one crazy event that won't happen again, but this is a normalcy bias tendency we all have and doesn't reflect reality.

I am reassured by the views that the Feedback topic has that this area of the fandom hasn't fallen prey to that specific bias. I don't believe that anyone here feels this is all that isolated. It least that's what not what I'm picking up. 

 

53 minutes ago, Varrack said:

The Oxford definition of forgiveness is to "stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake." It is not about condoning an individual's actions; rather, it is about releasing your hurt from it. Therefore, it should be everyone's obligation to forgive, as it repairs ourselves and has nothing to do with the other individual.

There is a popular view that a lack of condemnation and removal of desire for punishment goes hand in hand with that. That said, I will not pardon or absolve him of my judgement toward his character. I do hope he faces criminal proceedings. He deserves anger though. 

As far as obligation, I disagree there too. There is a healthy schema in which to process these sorts of events, and anger is a legitimately understandable and potentially positive emotional to work through. Rushing through an internal process like that is not a goal anyone has an obligation to meet. This thread has been measured and restrained, considering the subject matter. That alone gives me hope that it's being processed in a positive and healthy manner. 

For me, I have an obligation to process this based around my own timeline and values. I admit fully that I am guided by my own biases here, but I'm not going to ignore them, rather they will guide me. This is one action that it's good to have biases.