S08:E25+26 - School Raze

[Ganondox 899]

4 hours ago, Jeric said:

DEM requires an inability for the reader is audience to predict an outcome. That isn't semantics it's part of the definition. If you couldn't see the final act coming a mile away, that is on you. 

The definition of something is literally semantics. Lisfen to what I mean, not what I say, it’s the pragmatics of the argument that matters. I could tell what Quivit meant even though he didn’t use sentience correctly. In this case, Aristotle’s criticism of DEM still applies, so the modern definition isn’t important. And no, the outcome wasn’t predictable. I mean, it was only predicatable in the sense the show frequently does stuff like this, but this particular power was new.

Edited September 9, 2018 by Ganondox

[Ganondox 899]

1 hour ago, twichlove said:

  Hide contents

 

I'll say that i was mainly focusing on Autism' other symptoms, but it's entirely possible for an autistic patient to lie. She's spent a long time in Twi's School, yet she's still ignoring other's feelings, being obsessive over MoF, constantly lying, and other behaviors that pointed me to that conclusion. However yes, it's unlikely for an autistic person to manipulate like she did, i will say that.

Are you sure the problem isn't that she doesn't understand friendship? Because her not understanding friendship and directly relating it to power is the exact reason she planned the takeover in the episode, pointed out several times by Cozy herself and Twilight.

 

I respect that you disagree with my opinion, however it'd be better if you point out everything else you disagree about, so that i can get a better understanding of your points.

She wasn’t ignoring others feelings, she was using other’s feelings to get what she wants. That’s not autistic at all. She also wasn’t obsessed with anything in any sort of autistic manner, she was just power hungry. 

Yes, I’m sure, because she was a model student. She was great at friendship. It could be argued she didn’t understand the purpose of friendship, but that’s just a matter of perspective, she got what she wanted out of it so why should she care?

Countless other people have countered the rest of what you said, it would not be fruitful for me to go into detail when I’d mainly just be repeating others. 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Ganondox

[Jeric 46,851]

28 minutes ago, Ganondox said:

The definition of something is literally semantics. Lisfen to what I mean, not what I say, it’s the pragmatics of the argument that matters. I could tell what Quivit meant even though he didn’t use sentience correctly. In this case, Aristotle’s criticism of DEM still applies, so the modern definition is important. And no, the outcome wasn’t predictable. I mean, it was only predicatable in the sense the show frequently does stuff like this, but this particular power was new.

That came from the modern definition and criteria. Modern as in Elements of Style, On Writing, and even modern as in TV Tropes. 

And it absolutely was predictable. Are you here to argue just to argue, because on this one ... you are almost perfectly wrong. 

:V

[Ganondox 899]

32 minutes ago, Jeric said:

That came from the modern definition and criteria. Modern as in Elements of Style, On Writing, and even modern as in TV Tropes. 

And it absolutely was predictable. Are you here to argue just to argue, because on this one ... you are almost perfectly wrong. 

:V

YOU’RE the one arguing just for the sake of arguing as I think it made it pretty clear I don’t really care! I made my argument, and you’re just going into a completely irrelevant tangent in an attempt to out do me. Insisting the outcome is predictable and faulting me for disagreeing isn’t an argument, it’s just being a jerk. What’s important is not whether the ply device meets some arbitrary criteria, it’s whether it was effective or not. Your reply doesn’t even make sense in context, did you even read what I wrote? The irony is I never actually called it a Deus Ex Machina!

Edited September 9, 2018 by Ganondox

[Ganondox 899]

Just realized I made one little typo that Jeric seemed to base his entire response on. I wrote the modern definition is important, I meant to write the modern definition ISN’T important. I have sense corrected it. 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Ganondox

[Dethde 20]

47 minutes ago, Ganondox said:

She wasn’t ignoring others feelings, she was using other’s feelings to get what she wants. That’s not autistic at all. She also wasn’t obsessed with anything in any sort of autistic manner, she was just power hungry. 

Yes, I’m sure, because she was a model student. She was great at friendship. It could be argued she didn’t understand the purpose of friendship, but that’s just a matter of perspective, she got what she wanted out of it so why should she care?

Countless other people have countered the rest of what you said, it would not be fruitful for me to go into detail when I’d mainly just be repeating others. 

Spoiler

Model student? She's shown racism and discrimination even BEFORE she was revealed, in the show, she has been pointed out by herself and other characters to directly relate friendship and power, calling her "great" at friendship is a bigger matter of perspective, people will argue that she sees friends as materials to own, and she's truly horrible at friendship as she just doesn't get it. 

An autistic person CAN manipulate, i should have clarified that by "feels austistic" i meant that she showed traits which i personally relate to an autism victim, yes, you can make the argument that she was hungry for power, but i personally feel that she's being obsessive over friendship, like i said you can have your own opinions.

And i have countered back, i've responded to every argument they made, it really wouldn't be fruitful to repeat what others have said that i already countered, yes.

Sheesh, chill man, don't need to be fired up over this, that's what turns an argument toxic.

 

[bwrosas 252]

Spoiler

 

 

[Dethde 20]

Just now, Ganondox said:

Just realized I made one little typo that Jeric seemed to base his entire response on. I wrote the modern definition is important, I meant to write the modern definition ISN’T important. 

idk man, not her fault if you didn't properly word it. And you DID call it a borderline deus ex machina.

Predictability can't be fully measured, it varies based on the person, so honestly, the argument about it being predictable is pretty much irrelevant and will easily rile up a toxicity feud.

If you've been out competed in an argument and use "I don't care!" as an argument you're pretty much arguing for the sake of arguing, but just don't get too heated up.

[Ganondox 899]

17 minutes ago, twichlove said:

  Hide contents

Model student? She's shown racism and discrimination even BEFORE she was revealed, in the show, she has been pointed out by herself and other characters to directly relate friendship and power, calling her "great" at friendship is a bigger matter of perspective, people will argue that she sees friends as materials to own, and she's truly horrible at friendship as she just doesn't get it. 

An autistic person CAN manipulate, i should have clarified that by "feels austistic" i meant that she showed traits which i personally relate to an autism victim, yes, you can make the argument that she was hungry for power, but i personally feel that she's being obsessive over friendship, like i said you can have your own opinions.

And i have countered back, i've responded to every argument they made, it really wouldn't be fruitful to repeat what others have said that i already countered, yes.

Sheesh, chill man, don't need to be fired up over this, that's what turns an argument toxic.

 

So what she’s said racist things? She doesn’t appear to actually be racist, she just uses it as a tool to get what she wants, and she hasn’t gotten in trouble for anything she said so how does that make her bad at what she’s doing?

Yes, she sees her friends as tools, but that has nothing to do with autism, that’s more of a sociopathy thing (though again I caution against equating sociopathy with evil). The reason you sometimes see claims that autistic people see people as tools says based on symptom of autism in early childhood called hand-as-tool. Bad theories about autism hypothesized that this meant people with autism viewed others as objects, but this is clearly not the case in many individuals. My believe is that the behavior is just a crude attempt at communication that makes no respect to taboos. 

Sure, a person with autism can manipulate, and someone who is legally blind can hit a baseball. That doesn’t mean you’re going to recruit them for the major league, only people with incredible vision get that far. Effortless manipulating so many people like Cozy Glow is like that for someone with autism. 

Cozy Glow had no concern about friendship in and of itself, it was just a means to an end for her. Sure, you can have your own interpretations, but it’s pretty clear that she is not intended to be a sympathetic character. 

I’m not digging back through the thread through every counter you made. If your opinion hasn’t changed yet, it’s probably never going to change. I was just addressing the one thing I found important to address is the last thing I need is people thinking autistic people are like Cozy Glow.

While I was getting heated up with Jeric, I can assure you I’ve always been perfectly chill when replying to you. 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Ganondox

[DonMaguz 1,023]

24 minutes ago, twichlove said:

  Hide contents

Model student? She's shown racism and discrimination even BEFORE she was revealed, in the show, she has been pointed out by herself and other characters to directly relate friendship and power, calling her "great" at friendship is a bigger matter of perspective, people will argue that she sees friends as materials to own, and she's truly horrible at friendship as she just doesn't get it. 

 

She was a model student in Twilight's and the rest of the main characters eyes, even if they had shown to the audience that she really wasn't. She played Twilight amazingly by luring her with her own administrative skills, which Twilight saw as something really valuable about Cozy Glow's importance as a star student.

Edited September 9, 2018 by DonMaguz

[Ganondox 899]

19 minutes ago, twichlove said:

idk man, not her fault if you didn't properly word it. And you DID call it a borderline deus ex machina.

Predictability can't be fully measured, it varies based on the person, so honestly, the argument about it being predictable is pretty much irrelevant and will easily rile up a toxicity feud.

If you've been out competed in an argument and use "I don't care!" as an argument you're pretty much arguing for the sake of arguing, but just don't get too heated up.

Context, the rest of what I wrote should I have made my intention clear. Anyway, I fixed it. 

Borderline Deus Ex Machina is not a Deus Ex Machina. Maybe I should have used a better word than borderline, my intent was approaching the idea, but having not actually reached it. 

No, it’s not that I had been outcompeted, it’s not a competition. It’s that the argument was derailed so people are arguing about things I made no claim to. The point I made was not to discuss the semantics of Deus Ex Machina, it’s that the plot device wasn’t used in the most effective manner. 

This is all of topic, let’s go back to discussing the episode. 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Ganondox

[Dethde 20]

Just now, Ganondox said:

So what she’s said racist things? She doesn’t appear to actually be racist, she just uses it as a tool to get what she wants, and she hasn’t gotten in trouble for anything she said so how does that make her bad at what she’s doing?

Yes, she sees her friends as tools, but that has nothing to do with autism, that’s more of a sociopathy thing (though again I caution against equating sociopathy with evil). The reason you sometimes see claims that autistic people see people as tools says based on symptom of autism in early childhood called hand-as-tool. Bad theories about autism hypothesized that this meant people with autism viewed others as objects, but this is clearly not the case in many individuals. My believe is that the behavior is just a crude attempt at communication that makes no respect to taboos. 

Sure, a person with autism can manipulate, and someone who is legally blind can hit a baseball. That doesn’t mean you’re going to recruit them for the major league, only people with incredible vision get that far. Effortless manipulating so many people like Cozy Glow is like that for someone with autism. 

Cozy Glow had no concern about friendship in and of itself, it was just a means to an end for her. Sure, you can have your own interpretations, but it’s pretty clear that she is not intended to be a sympathetic character. 

I’m not digging back through the thread through every counter you made. If your opinion hasn’t changed yet, it’s probably never going to change. I was just addressing the one thing I found important to address is the last thing I need is people thinking autistic people are like Cozy Glow.

 

 

Spoiler

Because of her saying racist things, in front of student six may i add, she's not a model student as you implied her to be? 

I respect your beliefs, certain individuals have shown similar symptoms as Cozy however, and as an opinion it's not worth arguing.

Cozy wasn't shown to be a master at manipulating either, she's shown to be able to play innocent, lying in self defense, and manipulate others, even autism victims can achieve that.

Cozy Glow directly related Friendship to Power, and she was obsessed with obtaining as many friends as she could to achieve power, she doesn't have to be intended to be a sympathetic character either, wasn't my point.

I could change my opinion if someone gives a factual counter argument that does a very good job of completely disproving my arguments, the fact that you implied that people have completely destroyed my arguments didn't feel like you understood the conversation, instead it felt insulting and a passive aggressive attack, if you're not willing to put in the work to dissolve my points, Very Well.

I have never stated that Autistic people were all like Cozy Glow, you brought it up yourself that a legally blind person can score a home run, i was stating that Cozy Glow COULD be autistic as she's shown in what i'd imagine to be symptoms of autism, but i apologize if it made you feel that way, if you would like it to be worded another way, be sure to state it.

 

9 minutes ago, DonMaguz said:

She was a model student in Twilight's and the rest of the main characters eyes, even if they had shown to the audience that she really wasn't. She played Twilight amazingly by luring her with her own administrative skills, which Twilight saw as something really valuable about Cozy Glow's importance as a star student.

Spoiler

 

In the eyes of the students, yes.

I do agree that she did very well at fooling twilight, she played the right cards and made the right steps, which is part of Cozy's personality as a whole.

 

[Ganondox 899]

10 minutes ago, twichlove said:

  Hide contents

Because of her saying racist things, in front of student six may i add, she's not a model student as you implied her to be? 

I respect your beliefs, certain individuals have shown similar symptoms as Cozy however, and as an opinion it's not worth arguing.

Cozy wasn't shown to be a master at manipulating either, she's shown to be able to play innocent, lying in self defense, and manipulate others, even autism victims can achieve that.

Cozy Glow directly related Friendship to Power, and she was obsessed with obtaining as many friends as she could to achieve power, she doesn't have to be intended to be a sympathetic character either, wasn't my point.

I could change my opinion if someone gives a factual counter argument that does a very good job of completely disproving my arguments, the fact that you implied that people have completely destroyed my arguments didn't feel like you understood the conversation, instead it felt insulting and a passive aggressive attack, if you're not willing to put in the work to dissolve my points, Very Well.

I have never stated that Autistic people were all like Cozy Glow, you brought it up yourself that a legally blind person can score a home run, i was stating that Cozy Glow COULD be autistic as she's shown in what i'd imagine to be symptoms of autism, but i apologize if it made you feel that way, if you would like it to be worded another way, be sure to state it.

 

  Hide contents

 

In the eyes of the students, yes.

I do agree that she did very well at fooling twilight, she played the right cards and made the right steps, which is part of Cozy's personality as a whole.

 

Regarding her being a model student, DonManguz hit the nail on the end. The context is in regard to whether or not she’s autistic. Being deliberately racist has nothing to do with autism, and the fact she can get on Twilight’s good side while still being a jerk to others shows she has advanced social skills, not very autistic at all.

Everyone shares traits with anyone, that doesn’t mean they all have every condition. I fear people may use Cozy Glow in order to interpret autistic people’s behavior as having malicious intent, that’s why I’m cracking down on this.

She got the whole school on her side, that’s pretty masterful. It’s not merely that she lied, she lied effectively. That requires advanced perspective taking. If autism could be defined, the defining trait would be difficulty with perspective taking. What Cozy Glow did would be incredibly hard for someone with autism.  

I read your original post, your whole point was essentially that Cozy Glow is more sympathetic than Starlight Glimmer so why is she punished but not the later? Now it seems you’re trying to move away from that just to justify your opinion that Cozy Glow feels autistic, even though objectively she’s probably the least autistic character in the entire show.

I frankly don’t care about your opinion, we can just agree to disagree. I didn’t reply to persuade you, but to challenge your assertion for everyone else who was reading as your assertion had some nasty implications due to being based on false premises.

You missed my point with the analogy. I was a “so what” to your claim that autistic people can manipulate. What she pulled off here requires far more than just being able to manipulate, it requires being a master as the show established it.

Finally, I’d appreciate if you didn’t use the phrase “autism victim”, it makes it very hard for me to take anything you say about autism seriously. 

[Pixel Dusk 207]

Pretty cool episode, Cozy is an interesting villain which I'm sure we'll see again...
Some of the best parts: 

Spoiler

1) Magical animals are literally animals fused with magic.
2) Tirek was back! (at least for a bit)
3) We now know the Student Six's elements!
Yuna = Honesty (I mean, she is pretty honest with her feelings)
Sandbar = Kindness (thought this would go to ocellus or yuna but fair enough)
Silverstream = Laughter (this was obvious)
Gallus = Magic? (I mean... ok?)
Ocellus = Generosity (good enough)
Smolder = Loyalty (perfect)
 

 

[Dethde 20]

Just now, Ganondox said:

Regarding her being a model student, DonManguz hit the nail on the end. The context is in regard to whether or not she’s autistic. Being deliberately racist has nothing to do with autism, and the fact she can get on Twilight’s good side while still being a jerk to others shows she has advanced social skills, not very autistic at all.

Everyone shares traits with anyone, that doesn’t mean they all have every condition. I fear people may use Cozy Glow in order to interpret autistic people’s behavior as having malicious intent, that’s why I’m cracking down on this.

She got the whole school on her side, that’s pretty masterful. It’s not merely that she lied, she lied effectively. That requires advanced perspective taking. If autism could be defined, the defining trait would be difficulty with perspective taking. What Cozy Glow did would be incredibly hard for someone with autism.  

I read your original post, your whole point was essentially that Cozy Glow is more sympathetic than Starlight Glimmer so why is she punished but not the later? Now it seems you’re trying to move away from that just to justify your opinion that Cozy Glow feels autistic, even though objectively she’s probably the least autistic character in the entire show.

I frankly don’t care about your opinion, we can just agree to disagree. I didn’t reply to persuade you, but to challenge your assertion for everyone else who was reading as your assertion had some nasty implications due to being based on false premises.

You missed my point with the analogy. I was a “so what” to your claim that autistic people can manipulate. What she pulled off here requires far more than just being able to manipulate, it requires being a master as the show established it.

Finally, I’d appreciate if you didn’t use the phrase “autism victim”, it makes it very hard for me to take anything you say about autism seriously. 

Spoiler

However she ISN'T a model student? And the context was if she didn't understand friendship, Being deliberately racist (I'm not exactly sure how you're supposed to be indeliberately racist.)goes against the basis of friendship and being a model student, hiding your thoughts doesn't mean you're not autistic, in fact if she was extremely good at socializing, she would have refrained from expressing racism in the first place.

And i saw that cozy glow shared some traits with an autistic person, doesn't mean everyone who acts like cozy glow has to be Autistic. I don't see how someone would interpret sharing autistic traits to being Cozy Glow, a serial killer may have say, ADHD, doesn't mean everyone with adhd is a serial killer.

And the whole school were full of kids with no direct insight on what's going on? I haven't denied that she's special as a kid, being able to effectively manipulate crowds, i haven't said that she's purely autistic and anti social.

My point was that Sending a filly to hell while instantly sparing an extremely powerful unicorn who almost destroyed equestria with the ability to manipulate time was wrong, and i haven't moved away from that point? No, not objectively, your statements are influenced by your own opinions, being able to express a point completely objectively is like manipulating crowds as a completely autistic kid.

You actually do care, you care about my opinion influencing others in an absurd way, and i still don't get why "feels autistic" turns into "Every autistic kid alive is as morally inferior as Cozy Glow.", but if you have a better suggestion for wording, go right ahead.

I didn't miss your point in the analogy, I was pointing out that it is entirely possible to do what cozy glow did and still show symptoms of autism, which your analogy actually proved, I haven't denied that yes, she's most likely not autistic, but to me, she feels autistic in it's other symptoms.

Why does stating that people are victims of a crippling disorder make it hard to take my points seriously? Is that just something you personally have trouble with or...

6 minutes ago, Pixel Dusk said:

Pretty cool episode, Cozy is an interesting villain which I'm sure we'll see again...
Some of the best parts: 

  Hide contents

1) Magical animals are literally animals fused with magic.
2) Tirek was back! (at least for a bit)
3) We now know the Student Six's elements!
Yuna = Honesty (I mean, she is pretty honest with her feelings)
Sandbar = Kindness (thought this would go to ocellus or yuna but fair enough)
Silverstream = Laughter (this was obvious)
Gallus = Magic? (I mean... ok?)
Ocellus = Generosity (good enough)
Smolder = Loyalty (perfect)
 

 

Spoiler

Nice job pointing out the positives of the episode, i like the fact that some people do in fact enjoy this finale!

In all honesty i feel like the Student Six could have used more character development, Gallus and magic.... uh... 

 

[Ganondox 899]

1 hour ago, twichlove said:

  Reveal hidden contents

However she ISN'T a model student? And the context was if she didn't understand friendship, Being deliberately racist (I'm not exactly sure how you're supposed to be indeliberately racist.)goes against the basis of friendship and being a model student, hiding your thoughts doesn't mean you're not autistic, in fact if she was extremely good at socializing, she would have refrained from expressing racism in the first place.

And i saw that cozy glow shared some traits with an autistic person, doesn't mean everyone who acts like cozy glow has to be Autistic. I don't see how someone would interpret sharing autistic traits to being Cozy Glow, a serial killer may have say, ADHD, doesn't mean everyone with adhd is a serial killer.

And the whole school were full of kids with no direct insight on what's going on? I haven't denied that she's special as a kid, being able to effectively manipulate crowds, i haven't said that she's purely autistic and anti social.

My point was that Sending a filly to hell while instantly sparing an extremely powerful unicorn who almost destroyed equestria with the ability to manipulate time was wrong, and i haven't moved away from that point? No, not objectively, your statements are influenced by your own opinions, being able to express a point completely objectively is like manipulating crowds as a completely autistic kid.

You actually do care, you care about my opinion influencing others in an absurd way, and i still don't get why "feels autistic" turns into "Every autistic kid alive is as morally inferior as Cozy Glow.", but if you have a better suggestion for wording, go right ahead.

I didn't miss your point in the analogy, I was pointing out that it is entirely possible to do what cozy glow did and still show symptoms of autism, which your analogy actually proved, I haven't denied that yes, she's most likely not autistic, but to me, she feels autistic in it's other symptoms.

Why does stating that people are victims of a crippling disorder make it hard to take my points seriously? Is that just something you personally have trouble with or...

I’m not debating whether or not she’s a model student with you anymore. She can pull it off to get what she wants, that’s all that’s relevant. Your belief that racism is a reflection of bad social skills is irrelevant to how autism actually impacts people.

(it’s very easy to be indeliberately racist, people do things without thinking it through and absorb beliefs from their surrounding culture)

I don’t know why you are going on about everyone with autism having to be like Cozy Glow as I said nothing of the sort. What I’m saying is that Cozy Glow’s profile is so far from autism that the fact you feel she’s autistic reflects a fundamental misunderstanding about what autism even is. If you can misinterpret autism, than so can other people. I’m here to correct that as autistic people are often confused for sociopaths despite being VERY different.

The fact the whole school didn’t suspect her makes it all the harder to belief that she’s autistic.

That filly nearly destroyed all the magic Equestria, and unlike Starlight Glimmer she did it deliberately, and would do it again. WHY is it wrong to send her to Tartarus while sparing Starlight Glimmer? What it boils down to is you argued that she’s more deserving of sympathy because she’s an autistic filly or something, I really don’t care to get into that argument.

No, that’s not what I was saying at all. I don’t care about your opinion, I care about the argument you made that you are trying to defend by saying it’s just your opinion. My issue is you essentially justified Cozy Glow’s evil by equating it with autism. That’s what you’re saying when you confuse using your friends as tools for self-gratification with not knowing how to make friends, the former is evil and the later is autistic, and then you write her off as more sympathetic than Starlight Glimmer. That’s bad on two accounts. Autism is no excuse for being evil, nor does autism lead to being evil. The fact she blatantly isn’t autistic makes the argument all the easier, but even if she was I’d being pointing out the fallacy all the same. Notice how I’ve also been making an argument about how sociopathy isn’t evil on the side, when she actually does display sociopathic traits.

No, it isn’t. Someone with autism could be as manipulative as Fluttershy, or Zephyr Breeze, or maybe even Rarity (though that’s starting to push it), but what Cozy Glow did is on a whole ‘nother level. Maybe she could boost herself by reading the The Prince or How to Win Friends and Influence People, but that can only get you so far. It’s not going to help her when she needs to improvise and she can’t because of neurological differences. She managed to not just win the favor of the crowd, but turn them on unanticipated rivals. That’s the nigh impossible part. 

Maybe because they aren’t victims of a crippling disorder? First off, people aren’t victims of any sort of disorder, that’s just a misuse of the word of the word victim. Second, autism is complex, and MANY people would take offense to your claim, people both on and off the spectrum. Unlike “autism victim”, “people suffering from autism” is medically correct terminology due to an alternative definition of suffering, but people WILL chew you out even for using that. The fact you use the phrase makes it clear you know very little about autism. 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Ganondox

[Dethde 20]

35 minutes ago, Ganondox said:

I’m not debating whether or not she’s a model student with you anymore. She can pull it off to get what she wants, that’s all that’s relevant. Your belief that racism is a reflection of bad social skills is irrelevant to how autism actually impacts people.

(it’s very easy to be indeliberately racist, people do things without thinking it through and absorb beliefs from their surrounding culture)

I don’t know why you are going on about everyone with autism having to be like Cozy Glow as I said nothing of the sort. What I’m saying is that Cozy Glow’s profile is so far from autism that the fact you feel she’s autistic reflects a fundamental misunderstanding about what autism even is. If you can misinterpret autism, than so can other people. I’m here to correct that as autistic people are often confused for sociopaths despite being VERY different.

The fact the whole school didn’t suspect her makes it all the harder to belief that she’s autistic.

That filly nearly destroyed all the magic Equestria, and unlike Starlight Glimmer she did it deliberately, and would do it again. WHY is it wrong to send her to Tartarus while sparing Starlight Glimmer? What it boils down to is you argued that she’s more deserving of sympathy because she’s an autistic filly or something, I really don’t care to get into that argument.

No, that’s not what I was saying at all. I don’t care about your opinion, I care about the argument you made that you are trying to defend by saying it’s just your opinion. My issue is you essentially justified Cozy Glow’s evil by equating it with autism. That’s what you’re saying when you confuse using your friends as tools for self-gratification with not knowing how to make friends, the former is evil and the later is autistic, and then you write her off as more sympathetic than Starlight Glimmer. That’s bad on two accounts. Autism is no excuse for being evil, nor does autism lead to being evil. The fact she blatantly isn’t autistic makes the argument all the easier, but even if she was I’d being pointing out the fallacy all the same. Notice how I’ve also been making an argument about how sociopathy isn’t evil on the side, when she actually does display sociopathic traits.

No, it isn’t. Someone with autism could be as manipulative as Fluttershy, or Zephyr Breeze, or maybe even Rarity (though that’s starting to push it), but what Cozy Glow did is on a whole ‘nother level. Maybe she could boost herself by reading the The Prince or How to Win Friends and Influence People, but that can only get you so far. It’s not going to help her when she needs to improvise and she can’t because of neurological differences. She managed to not just win the favor of the crowd, but turn them on unanticipated rivals. That’s the nigh impossible part. 

Maybe because they aren’t victims of a crippling disorder? First off, people aren’t victims of any sort of disorder, that’s just a misuse of the word of the word victim. Second, autism is complex, and MANY people would take offense to your claim, people both on and off the spectrum. Unlike “autism victim”, “people suffering from autism” is medically correct terminology due to an alternative definition of suffering, but people WILL chew you out even for using that. The fact you use the phrase makes it clear you know very little about autism. 

Spoiler

"Your belief that racism is a reflection of bad social skills is irrelevant to how autism actually impacts people." What? I have never stated that Racism is a reflection to bad social skills, at this point, you're twisting my words, and i don't appreciate it.

You're still being deliberately racist if you personally believe a racist statement/culture.

You stating that i was relating Autism and evil, you're even relating those two in your reply, and my entire point here is that, No, Autism =/= Evil, and that i don't understand why someone would even think about Autism meaning Evil. I am in no means an expert in autism and has never claimed to be, if your entire goal is to correct and prevent people from confusing autistic people and socialpaths, you could have ended this right there and then by saying "It'd be great if you changed your wording to _____" instead of starting an argument to the point where you're being aggressive in wording and twisting words. I will admit that Cozy Glow most likely isn't autistic, and i apologize if anyone is offended by me stating that she "feels autistic".

Is destroying all the magic in equestria even slightly comparable to the havoc that starlight would have caused? A barren land filled with dust and nothingness? No, you are again twisting my words, i never had the intention of justifying her due to her seeming autistic, you're criticizing me for thinking Cozy is autistic, when you're twisting my words and wrongfully generalizing my arguments.

You clearly are caring about my opinion if you're even replying about an argument started by said opinion. Please do not ever state that i'm using the Opinion card if i haven't been shown using it, f i said "My argument is undisprovable due to it being my opinion" Sure, call me out, but when i haven't used the Opinion card, don't say i have, it's quite insulting to me. I have NEVER said or intended to say that autism is an excuse for being evil, yet you're implying that i have, i'm not sure if this is you twisting words or just not understanding at this point.

Now i do agree here, an autistic person most likely wouldn't achieve such feats, granted the crowd were young fillies, but all the same. She's not nearly as socially impacted as other children with autism.

I don't see why using the term victim is wrongful here, they've suffered from a neurological disorder that impacts their lives, I am by no means an expert, however if people do take offense in a verbal inaccuracy, i apologize, but you don't have to be politically correct to be an expert, it's comparable to me calling you an amateur at understanding opinions due to you misusing the term objectively.

 

[Ganondox 899]

52 minutes ago, twichlove said:

  Hide contents

"Your belief that racism is a reflection of bad social skills is irrelevant to how autism actually impacts people." What? I have never stated that Racism is a reflection to bad social skills, at this point, you're twisting my words, and i don't appreciate it.

You're still being deliberately racist if you personally believe a racist statement/culture.

You stating that i was relating Autism and evil, you're even relating those two in your reply, and my entire point here is that, No, Autism =/= Evil, and that i don't understand why someone would even think about Autism meaning Evil. I am in no means an expert in autism and has never claimed to be, if your entire goal is to correct and prevent people from confusing autistic people and socialpaths, you could have ended this right there and then by saying "It'd be great if you changed your wording to _____" instead of starting an argument to the point where you're being aggressive in wording and twisting words. I will admit that Cozy Glow most likely isn't autistic, and i apologize if anyone is offended by me stating that she "feels autistic".

Is destroying all the magic in equestria even slightly comparable to the havoc that starlight would have caused? A barren land filled with dust and nothingness? No, you are again twisting my words, i never had the intention of justifying her due to her seeming autistic, you're criticizing me for thinking Cozy is autistic, when you're twisting my words and wrongfully generalizing my arguments.

You clearly are caring about my opinion if you're even replying about an argument started by said opinion. Please do not ever state that i'm using the Opinion card if i haven't been shown using it, f i said "My argument is undisprovable due to it being my opinion" Sure, call me out, but when i haven't used the Opinion card, don't say i have, it's quite insulting to me. I have NEVER said or intended to say that autism is an excuse for being evil, yet you're implying that i have, i'm not sure if this is you twisting words or just not understanding at this point.

Now i do agree here, an autistic person most likely wouldn't achieve such feats, granted the crowd were young fillies, but all the same. She's not nearly as socially impacted as other children with autism.

I don't see why using the term victim is wrongful here, they've suffered from a neurological disorder that impacts their lives, I am by no means an expert, however if people do take offense in a verbal inaccuracy, i apologize, but you don't have to be politically correct to be an expert, it's comparable to me calling you an amateur at understanding opinions due to you misusing the term objectively.

 

 I’m not trying to twist your words, I’m just trying to stay on topic. Anyway, beliefs are NOT deliberate, but that’s beside the point. The point is that Cozy Glow didn’t say racist things because she’s actually racist, it’s to get her social leverage. For example, shutting down Smolder’s challenge to her legitimacy. It has nothing to do with her ability to act as a friend if she so desires. 

But you’re not argument they aren’t equivalent correctly, it’s the truth that matters. You took evil and called it autism instead and then argued that makes it less bad, but that doesn’t help. Instead it both legimitizes evil and vilifies autism. Since this has been clarified, let’s stop arguing about arguing as that gets no one anywhere. 

Your opinion is strictly personal to you. Your argument meanwhile is in a public space where it is subject to scrutiny. I don’t care what you belief and I can’t change how you feel, but I care about what you’re adding to a dialogue far greater than you where many people might be listening. See the difference?

If she’s not only not significantly socially impacted, but socially gifted, then why even label her as having autism? Having ambitions is not enough to make someone autistic. 

Victimhood requires a perpetrator, that’s why regardless of how much some with a disorder suffers they aren’t victims. The disorder is part of them, it’s not something sepperate that acts on them. But again, suffer is also a medical term, and many people on the spectrum are adamant that they don’t actually suffer in the way the term is commonly used. Sure, their abilities are impaired in some areas, but variation of ability is true for the entire population, not just those considered disabled. Two more things. If you’re trying to argue in favor of a group, don’t use language they would find offensive, regardless of whether you’re right it certainly doesn’t help your cause. Second, experts in a field also know the terminology a field uses, and as you admitted yourself you’re not an expert. 

[bwrosas 252]

Overall the finale was pretty decent.  
 

Spoiler

There were some funny moments, from Starlight's sarcasm, to Rarity's "Woah", there were very light-hearted moments.  Also, it was nice to see Cadance there at the meeting as well.

 

And I will say, that things really picked up in the 2nd and 3rd act of Part 1 and really picked up in the 2nd part.  

 

As far as Cozy Glow goes, as a villain, she was exactly what was needed.  A villain, that even in the moment was able to stay one step ahead, except when she disrespected the Tree of Harmony.

 

Now as far as punishment, Some may agree with it and some will not.  But let's be honest, yes Starlight and Tempest did things that deserve a sentience to Pony Alcatraz.  But question, did they attempt murder on several occasions and not give a darn, some will say "yes" and that's fine.  But were they willing to give friendship a second chance. The answer is yes. Especially when you understood their backstories.  

But what about Cozy?  Well let's see, she mocked what the elements were about, was going to let the Young Six and Starlight die, heck she was already technically killing Starlight by having her kept in that orb, tricked the Mane 6 and Spike into traveling into Tatruas and trapping them there., Drained all the Magic from Equestria, then try to escape to another school to continue her plan, and through all that, not once did she give a flying F*** about anyone but herself.

So yeah, I'd say she got what she deserved in the end.

 

Overall, again as I said, a pretty decent finale.

what you say?

 

[Dethde 20]

5 minutes ago, Ganondox said:

 I’m not trying to twist your words, I’m just trying to stay on topic. Anyway, beliefs are NOT deliberate, but that’s beside the point. The point is that Cozy Glow didn’t say racist things because she’s actually racist, it’s to get her social leverage. For example, shutting down Smolder’s challenge to her legitimacy. It has nothing to do with her ability to act as a friend if she so desires. 

But you’re not argument they aren’t equivalent correctly, it’s the truth that matters. You took evil and called it autism instead and then argued that makes it less bad, but that doesn’t help. Instead it both legimitizes evil and vilifies autism. Since this has been clarified, let’s stop arguing about arguing as that gets no one anywhere. 

Your opinion is strictly personal to you. Your argument meanwhile is in a public space where it is subject to scrutiny. I don’t care what you belief and I can’t change how you feel, but I care about what you’re adding to a dialogue far greater than you where many people might be listening. See the difference?

If she’s not only not significantly socially impacted, but socially gifted, then why even label her as having autism? Having ambitions is not enough to make someone autistic. 

Victimhood requires a perpetrator, that’s why regardless of how much some with a disorder suffers they aren’t victims. The disorder is part of them, it’s not something sepperate that acts on them. But again, suffer is also a medical term, and many people on the spectrum are adamant that they don’t actually suffer in the way the term is commonly used. Sure, their abilities are impaired in some areas, but variation of ability is true for the entire population, not just those considered disabled. Two more things. If you’re trying to argue in favor of a group, don’t use language they would find offensive, regardless of whether you’re right it certainly doesn’t help your cause. Second, experts in a field also know the terminology a field uses, and as you admitted yourself you’re not an expert. 

Spoiler

You see, even if you're not Trying to twist my words, when you say "Your belief that racism is a reflection of bad social skills is irrelevant to how autism actually impacts people." it paints me in a horrible way, and i don't appreciate you doing that. "You took evil and called it autism instead and then argued that makes it less bad" This certainly doesn't help it, you're either making horrible things up, twisting my words, or just not getting it. I'll agree on stopping the argument, but just can you please not do crap like that?

I never said that my opinion shouldn't be subject to scrutiny, you're not giving me an example of how to change the wording.

I loosely based "Autistic" on Autism's other symptoms, which i'm at fault for, and i do apologize.

Ah, i see where that'd offend some people, very well, but please just correct me next time instead of "

Finally, I’d appreciate if you didn’t use the phrase “autism victim”, it makes it very hard for me to take anything you say about autism seriously. "

I'm not an expert, however you painted people who aren't politically correct as people who know nothing about their topic, which i don't appreciate and i'm certain other people wouldn't appreciate either.

We can agree to end this argument, it's getting to the point where nothing productive is being done, give me a different way to word the part, and i'll happily change it.

 

 

[Dethde 20]

2 minutes ago, bwrosas said:

Overall the finale was pretty decent.  
 

  Hide contents

 

There were some funny moments, from Starlight's sarcasm, to Rarity's "Woah", there were very light-hearted moments.  Also, it was nice to see Cadance there at the meeting as well.

 

And I will say, that things really picked up in the 2nd and 3rd act of Part 1 and really picked up in the 2nd part.  

 

As far as Cozy Glow goes, as a villain, she was exactly what was needed.  A villain, that even in the moment was able to stay one step ahead, except when she disrespected the Tree of Harmony.

 

Now as far as punishment, Some may agree with it and some will not.  But let's be honest, yes Starlight and Tempest did things that deserve a sentience to Pony Alcatraz.  But question, did they attempt murder on several occasions and not give a darn, some will say "yes" and that's fine.  But were they willing to give friendship a second chance. The answer is yes. Especially when you understood their backstories.  

But what about Cozy?  Well let's see, she mocked what the elements were about, was going to let the Young Six and Starlight die, heck she was already technically killing Starlight by having her kept in that orb, tricked the Mane 6 and Spike into traveling into Tatruas and trapping them there., Drained all the Magic from Equestria, then try to escape to another school to continue her plan, and through all that, not once did she give a flying F*** about anyone but herself.

So yeah, I'd say she got what she deserved in the end.

 

Overall, again as I said, a pretty decent finale.

what you say?

 

Spoiler

Humor was pretty good to me, i came to your stream and said some things, the fact that the princesses were actually active was pretty good.

I've already stated my points in previous pages, so i won't bother with points already stated.

Buuuuut, Cozy Glow, she wasn't planning on Young Six and Starlight dying i'm pretty sure, Tartarus isn't a place where you die (pretty sure), as cozy herself was trapped in there later. A big part of what made Starlight and Tempest change was that they saw their consequences, Starlight would destroy Equestria, Tempest got betrayed, Cozy Glow..... would take over and gain power, there were no consequences for Cozy at the time, not much to open her eyes with.

I was disappointed with the finale, but it leaves room for Cozy Glow's revenge. 

 

[Dark Qiviut 22,388]

8 hours ago, Mesme Rize said:

Spoiler

They thought that tirek was behind all of this, but they should know how Tirek actually gets all of his magic, which is through actual contact with ponies.

 

The show flat-out explained that even though Tirek may eat magic, it's possible for him to be involved in the magic-draining scheme from behind the scenes. Which is exactly what happened. He co-conspired with Cozy by giving her instructions on how to use the vortex and the six magical artifacts to drain Equestria's magic and helped successfully trick them into getting trapped with him in Tartarus. He took part in one of Equestria's evilest plots while imprisoned.

9 hours ago, Mesme Rize said:

Spoiler

And it also made Tirek look like an idiot later, because he admits that he didn't thought his plan through of Cozy Glow draining all of the magic away, eventhough we should believe that Tirek is that big smart and mighty conquerer.

 

I have to disagree here. Tirek looked for revenge and got it. But he had a major flaw in the plan: The RM7 were going to be stuck with him, and without his magic, they're free to make fun of him and harass him. Pinkie annoying Tirek to the point of capituation's one of the funniest moments of the episode, because he's a big, bad villain getting his comeuppance the hard way.

The RM7 also showed competence. Despite being trapped, they believed the imprisoned creatures, Cerberus, and Tirek stored enough magic for them to potentially pry open the door and free themselves, all the while hoping magic doesn't disappear by nightfall. They stayed composed the entire time and came up with a solid plan.

9 hours ago, Mesme Rize said:

Spoiler

Speaking of Cozy Glow, her sudden reveal as the main villain of this arc would even make M. Night Shymalan give a headache.

Spoiler

I have no idea why any of the ponies should listen to her and why she even has that high of a status in the school to begin with.

 

Cozy's reveal to be the villain isn't all that surprising. For most of the season, she did some really shady things.

1. Manipulated the CMCs into helping her study the MoF, framed them to Twilight after she intentionally failed the exam in hopes thee CMCs get enrolled with her.
2. Spent a great deal of time working with Twilight in hopes of getting her to trust her, such as checking the mail and organizing the library. She was one of her most successful and studious students.
3. Gave the Flim Flam brothers a copy of Twilight's curriculum so she can alert Twilight and the rest of the school of the competition and enlist more trust between her and the student body.
4. Casually dressed up her racism against non-ponies in What Lies Beneath and became entranced by the Tree of Harmony's powerful glow.

Cozy wasn't just nice, but extremely nice and used her friendships with everyone else for her own gain. She made sure she was successful in the school, learned the concept of friendship, created valuable first impressions with everyone, sounded remorseful when she screws up, and became close with classmates and authority so they can come to her in times of need. And in the finale, when everyone was dumbfounded by the events, she identified a potential culprit and prepared everything so they travel safely, further ensuring their trust for her.

[Dethde 20]

4 minutes ago, Dark Qiviut said:

  10 hours ago, Mesme Rize said:

  Hide contents

And it also made Tirek look like an idiot later, because he admits that he didn't thought his plan through of Cozy Glow draining all of the magic away, eventhough we should believe that Tirek is that big smart and mighty conquerer.

 

Honestly i believe it wasn't tirek being smart, it was discord being er...

Let me explain, Discord is intelligent, he doesn't have to have a plan, to make a plan, however, as is chaos, when something goes out of his plan and surprises him, he knows nothing of what to do, he's stunned, and panics, in a way he behaves like a child, easy to manipulate, shunned by consequences.

Spoiler

 

getting off topic though, now i'll say that tirek was just seeing red with revenge, and didn't bother to think about what'll happen next, when you're locked in pony hell for all of eternity due to some magic pony princess, you're going to be angered to no end.

I don't see him as too intelligent, he's just got a broken ability that alone can mortify all of equestria.

 

 

[Will Guide 21,360]

I will say this: Cozy Glow makes an excellent pony version of Darla Dimple from Cats Don't Dance.

someone already did a pony music video of Diamond Tiara, but I think it's more appropriate with Cozy.

Here's the DT Good version if you're interested:

And here's the Evil reprise:

Yeah, I think Cozy Glow did it better, don't you think?

[Ganondox 899]

2 hours ago, twichlove said:

  Hide contents

You see, even if you're not Trying to twist my words, when you say "Your belief that racism is a reflection of bad social skills is irrelevant to how autism actually impacts people." it paints me in a horrible way, and i don't appreciate you doing that. "You took evil and called it autism instead and then argued that makes it less bad" This certainly doesn't help it, you're either making horrible things up, twisting my words, or just not getting it. I'll agree on stopping the argument, but just can you please not do crap like that?

I never said that my opinion shouldn't be subject to scrutiny, you're not giving me an example of how to change the wording.

I loosely based "Autistic" on Autism's other symptoms, which i'm at fault for, and i do apologize.

Ah, i see where that'd offend some people, very well, but please just correct me next time instead of "

Finally, I’d appreciate if you didn’t use the phrase “autism victim”, it makes it very hard for me to take anything you say about autism seriously. "

I'm not an expert, however you painted people who aren't politically correct as people who know nothing about their topic, which i don't appreciate and i'm certain other people wouldn't appreciate either.

We can agree to end this argument, it's getting to the point where nothing productive is being done, give me a different way to word the part, and i'll happily change it.

 

 

Look, how you look is not my responsibility. I’m just replying to what you said. The implicitions of what you said is your own. I’m not attributing any malice to you, your claims just had implications you didn’t intend because you didn’t autism. I didn’t make anything up or twist anything, I just explained those implications. If you want me to stop, you gotta stop making these claims. Take some responsibility for yourself.

I don’t want you to change your wording (and how am supposed to tell you what to say when you just claim I misinterpret what you said anyway?). You said what you said, I commented on it, and that’s the end of it. I’m frankly tired of arguing with you. I don’t care about your opinion, you can believe Cozy Glow is autistic against all evidence all you want, I was just challenging your claim and it has been challenged. I have nothing more to say, and apparently neither do you.

She doesn’t have any autistic symptoms though. As you could come up with was that she is obsessed when she’s really just ambitious. But again, her being autistic or not is irrelevant, what she did was evil either way.

You know what I don’t appreciate? People who constantly whine about political correctness. As a matter of fact, I can’t take people who complain about that seriously when they then complain about being misrepresented. Words are words, you can’t have it both ways. Now you know better, let’s just end this. 

Edited September 10, 2018 by Ganondox