Is Chrysalis truly more powerful than Celestia

[TheMarkz0ne 962]

Forgive for what I am about to say. But after the Queen sent Celestia to the glue factory it had me thinking. If Celestia is this all powerful demigod and Chrysalis is just some powerful being an has no god like abilities. Then how was she able to beat her. I know it was the love power from Cadence and Shining Armor that fed her. But isn't Celestia the be all end all? 

[DBG 79]

As far as I'm concerned, Chrysalis just had a massive power boost in that confrontation because Shining Armor's love.

 

I guess alicorns aren't completely perfect and infallible after all, eh?

[MelancholicMemory 2,025]

No one ever said she was all-powerful or anything. She's powerful, but not the be-all end-all. For example, I'm sure the Elements of Harmony easily have more collective power than Luna and Celestia put together. Discord obviously had more power than her because it took Luna and the EoH to defeat him the very first time.

 

Considering the fact that Celestia was surprised and Chrysalis was all super-changeling from Shining Armor's love, I do not find it particularly surprising that Celestia was defeated, in retrospect.

[Leafeon 2,702]

Depends. With no variables, Celestia is more powerful. If there is a strong love source, Chrysalis. Like any other power boost, it's temporary.

[Scootalove 10,689]

Celestia is actually more poweful. But if, gaining power from controlling someone's love then Chrysalis has the amount of power in her court.

[Betez 1,734]

I really don't think so. I mean, Chrysalis had a massive army of Changelings with her, and even then, Celestia, along with Twilight and the Mane 6, took them all, at least enough so that they left. I do think that, if it was just one-on-one, Celestia could defeat Chrysalis.

[NavelColt 22,882]

As far as I'm concerned, Chrysalis just had a massive power boost in that confrontation because Shining Armor's love.

This. Chrysalis is a parasite. She feeds to get strength. If she hadn't been devouring Armor's love, Celestia would have toasted her.

 

She acted surprised when actually beat Celestia, then said, "Shining Armor's love for you is even stronger than I thought. Consuming it has made me even more powerful than Celestia!"

 

Underline, bold font, 'MADE me even more powerful'.

[Zygen 6,066]

Well without feeding off of anything she obviously wouldn't be more powerful then Celestia, its just a temporary power boost she got.

 

But with that powerboost yes she was more powerful then Celestia, Celestia hasn't ever been totally blatantly said to be an all powerful God or anything, shes just powerful.

 

However without that power boost Chrysalis doesn't stand a chance.

[Motion Spark 7,807]

Chrysalis is stronger and weaker than Celestia, how?, her power source is variable and obtained from other creature's love feelings, if she can feed from enough love, she is capable of kicking Celestia's flank. In exchange Celestia's power (which is a lot) is constant and won't fluctuate.

[Alex Kennedy 1,228]

If Celestia was as unstoppable as you say she is, Discord wouldn't have escaped and stolen the elements. I think Chrysalis probably has the potential to become more powerful than Celestia, or anyone for that matter, since it's not really her power but power that she steals from others.

[poniesforfun 716]

Power levels or who is stronger than who is not important in a girl's cartoon show. But by Chrysalis' surprised reaction and how she said "Shining Armor's love has made me more powerful than Celestia" this can imply that she is weaker than Chrysalis in a horn magic standoff without the love boost.

[Harmonic Revelations 8,835]

Shining-Armor's love was the whole reason that Chrysalis could pull it off in the first place. I'm assuming that since it hasn't been said that Alicorns are not immortal or gods/godesses,

[Firelord Derpy 310]

Somepony had a theory that I saw somewhere that Chrysalis also tapped into Celestia's love for Equestria in addition to Shining Armor's love. 

I think Chrysalis by default is weaker then Celestia but since she had power ups she was able to get the best of her.

Another thing to note may be that Celestia was concerned about making sure nopony else got hurt and or a desire to incapacitate not kill. She might have been able to defeat Chrysalis if she had fought an epic battle and send blasting spells and shot beams of light from the sun down, but that could have hurt others so she focused her power into one single attack that had no fail safes and probably was created to not kill, but to disable. And by the time she realized that Chrysalis was more powerful then she expected and she needed to pour more power into it, it has already back fired.

Like if your pushing against someone and they shove you and you lose your balance. You may be stronger then them but if they surprise you and you lose your footing you will end up on the ground.

 

 

Also just because Celestia was defeated does not make her a poor leader, rule by strength rarely works for prosperous nations.

[Metemponychosis 1,262]

I have a theory...

Lazy writing! The staff behind the episode couldn't think of a better reason why Celestia would perhaps "limit her power output"...

 

It's the Worf Effect.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect

[Veylon 255]

I have a theory...

Lazy writing! The staff behind the episode couldn't think of a better reason why Celestia would perhaps "limit her power output"...

 

It's the Worf Effect.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect

A big chunk of why Worf comes across as incompetent is because he always charges these aliens head-on and thinks he's going to win. He eponymous effect would be much reduced if he either changed his strategy, gained some humility, or encouraged others (or himself) to have a Plan B.

 

And....that's kind of what happened with Celestia. The lazy writing isn't so much that she lost (which, given the script, was inevitable) but how she lost. Celestia's role in the show is to be the wise mentor to Twilight, but she shows a considerable lack to wisdom by apparently being completely unaware that she could confront Chyrsalis and end up losing. And there's two ways to deal with that.

 

Plan A is simply have Celestia go in knowing she's going to lose. She can send the Mane Six to get the Elements and fight to buy them time. That's the kind of self-sacrifice we expect from a leader and it's hard to see how you can criticize her for going that route.

 

Plan B would be to acknowledge her fall. She failed, a lot of ponies almost died, and it really was her fault for charging in blindly. She learns a lesson in humility and other ponies now feel freer to question her wisdom. It's a genuine loss to her stature that she has to accept.

 

Either of those would be fine - though I think most writers would rather write 'A' - but that's not what we get. Instead, nobody ever calls Celestia on it. There's a blot on her record, but the show will just go on as if nothing happened. And that's where the Worf Effect comes in for her; she's been badly outwitted and outmanuevered, but we'll just pretend it didn't happen and that she's still possesses nigh-perfect judgement.

[Metemponychosis 1,262]

A big chunk of why Worf comes across as incompetent is because he always charges these aliens head-on and thinks he's going to win. He eponymous effect would be much reduced if he either changed his strategy, gained some humility, or encouraged others (or himself) to have a Plan B.

 

And....that's kind of what happened with Celestia. The lazy writing isn't so much that she lost (which, given the script, was inevitable) but how she lost. Celestia's role in the show is to be the wise mentor to Twilight, but she shows a considerable lack to wisdom by apparently being completely unaware that she could confront Chyrsalis and end up losing. And there's two ways to deal with that.

 

Plan A is simply have Celestia go in knowing she's going to lose. She can send the Mane Six to get the Elements and fight to buy them time. That's the kind of self-sacrifice we expect from a leader and it's hard to see how you can criticize her for going that route.

 

Plan B would be to acknowledge her fall. She failed, a lot of ponies almost died, and it really was her fault for charging in blindly. She learns a lesson in humility and other ponies now feel freer to question her wisdom. It's a genuine loss to her stature that she has to accept.

 

Either of those would be fine - though I think most writers would rather write 'A' - but that's not what we get. Instead, nobody ever calls Celestia on it. There's a blot on her record, but the show will just go on as if nothing happened. And that's where the Worf Effect comes in for her; she's been badly outwitted and outmanuevered, but we'll just pretend it didn't happen and that she's still possesses nigh-perfect judgement.

 

That's actually what I meant. You worded it way better than I did, though. The problem is not that she lost, but how she lost.

Thanks!

[Fridge 382]

The queen actually says it herself (paraphrasing here) as long as she remains feeding from Shining Armours love for Cadance she is more powerful. So her magical strength seems to rely heavily on who she's feeding from at the time, although I suspect she still has a great deal of power of her own.

[TheMarkz0ne 962]

Chrysalis has the potential to be the most powerful being in all of Equestria if she absorbs all of it's love. She could be like Thanos with the infnity gauntlet.

[~Starlight~ 764]

I don't think so, in my opinion it was only because she had Cadence's and Shining Armour's love on her side, this is what made her so powerful. Yet queen Chrysalis is powerful, she would not be able to raise the sun, moon and the elements of harmony in one year of ruling.  

[Anadu Kune 668]

Chrysalis's normal ability is obviously less than that of Celestia's given even Chrysalis seemed a bit surprised that she had bested her. However Chrysalis's potential for power may be boundless. She draws her power from the love of others. So her power is directly proportionate to the amount of love her victim feel for the one she is disguised as. There's no real way to measure love or its limits nor its conversion rate to magical power, so her Limits are also unknown perhaps even to Celestia.

Though I feel its important to say this isnt the only time Celestia has been defeated or outmatched. Nightmare Moon  defeated her, banishing her to some unknown place. Discord was clearly too much for her to handle without the elements of harmony. Sombra though physically beaten managed to work a curse that Celestia and Luna had no way of getting around. So there was already a precedence for Celestia being defeated which is why I was pretty confused about some getting mad at that scene. 

[Rainbow Dash Loyalty 1,275]

You can see that Celestia was winning at the start of their 'Magic Duel', but Chrysalis defeated her in the end because of the power boost she got from Shining Armor's love. And you can't underestimate the power of love, that's how they defeated Chrysalis in the end right?

[Veylon 255]

 

 

Though I feel its important to say this isnt the only time Celestia has been defeated or outmatched. Nightmare Moon  defeated her, banishing her to some unknown place. Discord was clearly too much for her to handle without the elements of harmony. Sombra though physically beaten managed to work a curse that Celestia and Luna had no way of getting around. So there was already a precedence for Celestia being defeated which is why I was pretty confused about some getting mad at that scene. 

People are mad because Celestia failed at something she intended to accomplish. She was wrong about something and it cost herself and her ponies. In the other scenarios, Celestia - though outmatched - was still in the game on her own terms. Against Nightmare Moon and Discord, her agents took up the battle with a plan of her devising and ultimately succeeded. She played the Chessmaster role very well.

 

Against Chrysalis, she botched a whole series of decisions. She missed a Changeling right under her nose, placed her city's defence in the hooves of a pony under said changeling's sway, missed the replacement of a key ally, Princess Cadance, failed to heed Twilight's warning, picked a fight she couldn't win, and failed to have a contingency in motion in case she lost. All of which hit her Chessmaster credentials very hard.

 

In a tougher setting, it would lead to characters justifiably questioning her judgement when the chips are down. She wouldn't be able to say, in effect, "I'm Celestia, so you should just accept what I decide is right." No, she'd have to offer reasons and explanations to win them over. This isn't one of those settings, so we get the Crystal Empire episodes.

 

Personally, I don't mind Celestia failing once in a while. It humanizes her by pulling her away from the inhuman Chessmaster role and show a wider range of emotions and character. The show doesn't actually go to the extent of characters challenging her decisions or hedging their bets against her being wrong or showing her experiencing the mortal pain of screwing things up. Though any and all of those would be nice.

[Nature's Spell 526]

There are a lot of great theories, and I agree with them, but the bottom line is she had to fail so Cadence and Shinning Armor could do their love spell. Even the Mane 6 failed and ended up sitting on the sidelines.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Nature Spell

[Dreadmallon 353]

    As far as I know, Chrysalis is as powerful as Sweetie Belle at her typical, starved stage. The only reason she beat Celestia was because she had consumed so much love from Shining Armor.

 

    However, it still bothers me that she was defeated, and defeated so easily. I know Celestia has been defeated before, by Nightmare Moon, but that's different. Chrysalis is just a unique, alien creature never seen before in Equestria, yes, but not a goddess like Celestia or Luna. Not only is she somewhat a goddess, which by the way is my theory, but she is also that wise mare everyone looks up to. It's like having Yoda or Dumbledore lose to some new, unknown OC.

 

    Quite honestly, despite being a fan of her character, I believe the writers inserted that whole "consuming love=power" concept partially to justify Chrysalis for being a Mary Sue late in "A Canterlot Wedding."

[Anadu Kune 668]

People are mad because Celestia failed at something she intended to accomplish. She was wrong about something and it cost herself and her ponies. In the other scenarios, Celestia - though outmatched - was still in the game on her own terms. Against Nightmare Moon and Discord, her agents took up the battle with a plan of her devising and ultimately succeeded. She played the Chessmaster role very well.

 

Against Chrysalis, she botched a whole series of decisions. She missed a Changeling right under her nose, placed her city's defence in the hooves of a pony under said changeling's sway, missed the replacement of a key ally, Princess Cadance, failed to heed Twilight's warning, picked a fight she couldn't win, and failed to have a contingency in motion in case she lost. All of which hit her Chessmaster credentials very hard.

 

In a tougher setting, it would lead to characters justifiably questioning her judgement when the chips are down. She wouldn't be able to say, in effect, "I'm Celestia, so you should just accept what I decide is right." No, she'd have to offer reasons and explanations to win them over. This isn't one of those settings, so we get the Crystal Empire episodes.

 

Personally, I don't mind Celestia failing once in a while. It humanizes her by pulling her away from the inhuman Chessmaster role and show a wider range of emotions and character. The show doesn't actually go to the extent of characters challenging her decisions or hedging their bets against her being wrong or showing her experiencing the mortal pain of screwing things up. Though any and all of those would be nice.

Yeah but everyone one failed to notice Chrysalis intrusion. The rest of the mane six, Princess Luna, all of the royal gaurds. Heck there had to be a point before Shining wasnt under the spell, and he the captain of the royal guard at some point had to have some lapse in perception or judgement that led to him being under her spell. To be honest I'm not sure how Celestia would have a way of knowing without it seeming unbelievable. After all when presented with these two possibilities which seems more likely?

 

1. Cadance is a being of pure evil and is only trying to use Shining Armor for her own evil goals rather than love him...cause shes evil.

 

2. Cadance is stressed out because of the upcoming wedding and as a result comes off a bit meaner than she normally would.  

 

I think any reasonable person in that situation would almost certainly come to conclusion 2 before 1. Heck even Twilight questioned her own logic afterwards. Shining's explanation was the more common sense explanation. Twilight went in accusing Cadence with no evidence other than her own account which appeared to be emotionally driven to the others.  If they did question Celestia and not everyone else including her sister Luna I would find that pretty silly.

 

pony: Celestia you piece of garbage how could you not see this coming. Why even a stupid child could see that Cadence was impostor the whole time.

 

Celestia: I did not and neither did my sister, or any of the royal guards, or most of the elements of harmony, or you for that matter. My most faithful student was the only one to even suspect it. Say of me as you will, but I will not hear any insults or questioning against my sister or any of the others involved in this. They carried out their duties as best as they or anypony else could. rather than lay blame on any one of these parties we should all work together to prevent it from happening again. 

 

pony: Yeah...whatever. But you didn't have any contingency plans!

 

Celestia: In fact I had three separate lines of defense. Shining armors shield and the whole of the palace guards was the first. The second was direct confrontation to which most enemies would fail. I had not anticipated a channeling's love absorption would be that strong. I then sought to use the Elements of harmony on her. However it seems Chrysalis was prepared for this. I also technically had a forth. Had my sister not been occupied with her duties we both could have taken her down. Unfortunately it seems that Chrysalis had been walking among us for a considerable amount of time. At least enough to know the habits and duties of all those in Canterlot Castle. (technically 5 if you count the gaurds as separate from the shield. 

 

I think Celestia had it pretty well covered for most situations. I think it a little bit too much to expect she would catch on to Cadance being a shape shifting emotional parasite. After all Celestia has undoubtedly seen stress effect ponies before. All of Cadance's behaviors could easily be seen as symptoms of stress. Heck she saw her most faithful student drive herself crazy with it. Despite having coping technique stress can find a way through at times. 

 

 I mean that's kinda the point of a shape shifter to become physically indistinguishable from the actual being which they mimic. What better time to do so than right before and during a huge event like a royal wedding. Everyone's attention is on planing said event and on the apparent "threat". They probably wont be as aware of your behavior and if they are your actions are quite in line with what is expected of a stress reaction. All the while you suck the energy out of the one creating the shield protecting the city. That same person will also defend you passionately if you are to be questioned. All the while your minions eat away at the severely weaken shield to to a full on attack. An attack that would happen when they least expected it as they thought they were fully prepared for it.