An Important Unwritten Rule That Should Be Written Down

[Shanks 10,816]

I have seen a lot of topics about clop get locked and some even deleted because of flame wars, people posting NSFW/boderline NSFW material and other reasons which I guess is understandable but one thing I have noticed is that because of that past history a lot of those threads are pre emptively locked. One of the most common reasons given is that clop topics are now banned from MLP forums due to the long history of said topics being locked/deleted because of the reasons I have stated as well as others with this recently locked clop topic being a good example.

 

http://mlpforums.com/topic/105127-is-being-a-clopper-a-bad-thing/

 

I double checked the "global rules" and found nothing about clop topics being banned which begs the question of why is that? If something is banned then shouldn't it officially state that in the rules? Sexual subjects in general haven't been banned, just clop threads but while a lot of us who have been around long enough know the history of these threads going down and know the how when and why there are a lot of new users that join every single day that might not know this. A topic asking opinions on R34 in general was locked last night and while it being locked was understandable with the flaming, multiple off topic posts and multiple examples of backseat moderation I believe because of this users are owed more of an explanation than simply "enough".

 

http://mlpforums.com/topic/105090-is-rule-34-a-good-thing/page-11

 

I say this not to bash on Aquilla or any mod or admin in particular but while it may be frustrating for site staff to deal with all of this over and over again I believe that only saying "enough" as a reason to lock a thread such as this is insufficient in large part due to the confusion I mentioned in another thread I posted in the suggestions section about what constitutes "borderline NSFW".

 

http://mlpforums.com/topic/104462-more-clarification-and-consistent-enforcement-of-the-borderline-nsfw-rule/

 

 

[Khaoios 1,970]

I have to agree with you fully on that, Prodigy. 

[King 5,626]

On the topic of "not providing enough reason" for a thread lock, unlike a police force, moderators don't owe people a laundry list of reasons as to why things are closed down, we're a privately owned and operated website.

All moderators are chosen for their ability to handle things in a way that's deemed best for the community and should in turn be trusted to make proper decisions. However, we regularly provide reasons for what we do to make it clear as to why things are done rather then leaving people in the dark, and in the interest of making things clear I do agree that banned topics could be written down somewhere.

This could make it somewhat more clear as to what topics are not allowed on the forum.

Still though, its rare for new members to sit down and read the FAQ and Global Rules.



 

Edited July 23, 2014 by Dawn Rider
So much editing x_x

[Shanks 10,816]

On the topic of "not providing enough reason" for a thread lock, unlike actual an actual police force moderators don't owe people a laundry list of reasons as to why things are closed down, we're a privately owned and operated website.

The problem though is blanket statement like "enough" can come off as a tad condescending, who knows Aquilla might have just had a bad day or something but I am not asking for a novel to be written here when just a short summary would do fine.

 

 

Still though, its rare for new members to sit down and read the FAQ and Global Rules.

True, I won't deny that I wish more people actually would sit down and read them I mean they are not a dang novel and most of them make sense. It would still be helpful to write this down though, a quick edit of the "global rules" and an announcement in Canterlot Castle would probably suffice. That way moderators could simply link to that whenever a future clop topic get pre preemptively locked along with anything else they feel might be relevant.

[King 5,626]

 

 

The problem though is blanket statement like "enough" can come off as a tad condescending, who knows Aquilla might have just had a bad day or something but I am not asking for a novel to be written here when just a short summary would do fine.

For sure, and thats generally encouraged as you probably see by other such lock notices. In general though, its up to the moderator/admins discretion as to what they write.

 

True, I won't deny that I wish more people actually would sit down and read them I mean they are not a dang novel and most of them make sense. It would still be helpful to write this down though, a quick edit of the "global rules" and an announcement in Canterlot Castle would probably suffice. That way moderators could simply link to that whenever a future clop topic get pre preemptively locked along with anything else they feel might be relevant.

As I said earlier, I can agree with this. No harm in making it clear as to what topics are banned. Would at the very least make it clear to those who do intent to read the rules.

[ThePurpleK 71]

As with all forum communities, staff members hold the final decision. Staff members tend to take actions in the best interest of the community, whether members like it or not.

[Thrashy 2,800]

On the topic of "not providing enough reason" for a thread lock, unlike a police force, moderators don't owe people a laundry list of reasons as to why things are closed down, we're a privately owned and operated website.

 

You kind of do, actually. This may be an online community, but it is a community just like any other. And in any other community, one would expect the authorities to:

 

-Create fair rules

-Enforce said rules fairly (this includes not leaving members in the dark about issues like these)

-Play by their own rules

 

In the same way that the police are public servants, the mod team are here to serve the members. And I find it highly alarming that you basically just said "We don't owe y'all nothin'."

 

Also, as much as I hate to pull this card on you; this site may be privately owned, but it's completely fair that the many members who have thrown their own money at this site expect things to run as smoothly as possible.

[Shanks 10,816]

As with all forum communities, staff members hold the final decision. Staff members tend to take actions in the best interest of the community, whether members like it or not.

I want to make it clear that the purpose of this thread isn't to complain that said threads are locked down but only to state that if something is going to be "banned" than it should be made official, clear and part of the record so that users can go to it and moderators can link it to users. It benefits users by better letting them know the score and moderation by giving them something to link to users as a reason for a pre emptive lock down.

[Clarity 3,094]

Yeah, I gotta agree with this. While I haven't been a big participant in the clop threads myself and couldn't care less whether or not they're banned, rule enforcement is a necessity here. People who haven't been around as long as the old members who knew about these clop threads and the flamewars they cause wouldn't have the foggiest idea why they were banned if it says in the rules that general discussion of NSFW content is allowed. 

 

True, admins and moderators can do whatever they want. It's their site, their rules, et cetera. But I can't imagine it's so hard to write a small explanation like it's usually done. And yeah, we kind of do need to know why, because we're using the site and all.

[King 5,626]

In the same way that the police are public servants, the mod team are here to serve the members. And I find it highly alarming that you basically just said "We don't owe y'all nothin'."

I said no such thing. We do our best to provide members with everything required for them to behave within the rules. Apart from that, common sense is all that is needed.

 

What I was getting at is that we aren't a government. We don't have a series of governing councils and whatnot to tell us what rules to enforce. We write the rules, policies, faq's and so on and are required to enforce them. We don't "owe" people things in the sense that we aren't paid, we're volunteers and everything we do is done because we achieve some kind of satisfaction from serving the community. Do not mistake serving the community as being servants OF the community.

 

We decide the policies, we enforce the policies and we have the last say.

 

Now whilst you keep that in mind, I fully agree with making things clear enough as the situation allows. Im not about to warn someone for something thats not even expressed somewhere.

 

So yes, I agree it would be nice to have these threads written somewhere so people can clearly see what topics are a no go.

 

Edited July 23, 2014 by Dawn Rider

[Simon 4,557]

You kind of do, actually. This may be an online community, but it is a community just like any other. And in any other community, one would expect the authorities to:

 

-Create fair rules

-Enforce said rules fairly (this includes not leaving members in the dark about issues like these)

-Play by their own rules

 

In the same way that the police are public servants, the mod team are here to serve the members. And I find it highly alarming that you basically just said "We don't owe y'all nothin'."

 

Also, as much as I hate to pull this card on you; this site may be privately owned, but it's completely fair that the many members who have thrown their own money at this site expect things to run as smoothly as possible.

 

I definitely agree with the sentiment that it's best to disclose banned topics, but those types of things take time.  Unlike a police force, a forum mod doesn't have a full-time staff of legislators, judges, and lawyers constantly debating laws to tweak them and make them perfect.  No forum is going to have rules for everything that may need to be removed, and you can't expect a forum to bind itself to only enforcing rules when they're publicly posted.

 

The idea of auto-locking the clop topics is a fairly recent change that seems to have happened since every time the mods allowed one of these topics to be posted, it turned into chaos.  The mods have to make calls on the spot, and since the trend seems to be that clop topics are just outright banned now, it will in all likelihood end up on the rules page soon.  But the idea that mods should just leave all the clop topics up until they can get around to developing a rule, is a really bad idea since they already have a good idea that the topic will wind up causing problems. 

 

This is just how rules get developed on forums... when something causes issues the mods come up with a quick response while formulating a rule to address it more permanently... it's not ideal but it's the best system that you can use when you're dealing with a forum setting where you're playing police officer, judge, jury, attorney, and legislator all at once.

 

It's also worth noting that while it doesn't say in the rules that you can't post clop topics, every user on this site is very well aware of the fact that you are supposed to search the forum to make sure there's not already a topic that's the same before you post your own.  Had they done that, they would have found dozens of locked topics and got the idea that they shouldn't post another.  It's very, very far from some hidden issue that's impossible to know about it.  In fact, I'm sure more users on this site have seen at least one of the clop topics get banned, then the number of users who actually read the rules page, so I think you have to take that into consideration as well. 

[Shanks 10,816]

Do not mistake serving the community as being servants OF the community.

Yes, that is exactly what site moderation is a servant of the community. I get what you are saying about moderators having the final say and the staff making the rules and it being different from say a government but statements like "we don't owe you nothing" come as extremely condescending and only serve to widen the gulf between users and the staff by creating an atmosphere of resentment and hostility. As I have said in the "borderline NSFW" suggestion thread I have had experience in moderation before maybe not on this site but I think it still matters and one thing I have learned is that if a site staff do not listen to their user base than the users start to resent them and things start to fall apart. I get that you guys have to sometimes make decisions that may be unpopular, some of those decisions are crucial but at the same time blanket statements like "enough" and "we don't owe you anything" can easily be misinterpreted and create problems that are easily avoidable.

[King 5,626]

Please keep the thread on the topic of altering Global Rules to include topics that are banned, otherwise its slowly going to derail and miss the point entirely.
 

Edited July 23, 2014 by Dawn Rider

[Simon 4,557]

 

 

if a site staff do not listen to their user base than the users start to resent them and things start to fall apart

 

Since when does this staff not listen to the users?  Go back and look at the forum's home page again and see what the third topic from the top is, before all the pony topics, before all the discussions... it's the category this topic is in as a matter of fact... the suggestions topic.

 

Moderators don't have to allow members to make suggestions and debate site policies so openly, but this site does because this staff places an unusual value on allowing members to speak their mind and give their opinion.

 

I've even become pretty good friends with some of the staff because I talked with them about site policies I didn't agree with and we had a good conversation about those rules and what could be done to make them better.

 

Bottom line is this is a staff inordinately concerned with allowing users to express their minds, so I think it's pretty unfair to say that they don't listen to users.

[Thrashy 2,800]

Do not mistake serving the community as being servants OF the community.

 

Did I come off that way? Make no mistake, I'm not insisting that the staff bend over backwards for the userbase in a way that makes them, essentially, doormats. The mod team would have no point to exist if that were the case. But what I am saying is that it is the duty of a site's staff - regardless of who owns/pays for the site, and regardless of whether or not they're seeing monetary benefits for their work - to not only keep the peace, but ensure that this is a community people want to be a part of. And people won't want to be a part of a community where none of their concerns are given the consideration they deserve.

 

To be honest, the whole reason I became a subscriber was to contribute to the betterment of this community. But lately it's become increasingly clear that certain issues (such as clarifying BNSFW rules) aren't being taken the least bit seriously, or so moderator responses would have me believe. With all objections being met with "Nahh, it's fine the way it is," even when it's so clearly not fine, I just want to know one thing: Are you guys actually giving these issues serious discussion behind the mod panel? That's really all I want to know.

[King 5,626]

to not only keep the peace, but ensure that this is a community people want to be a part of. And people won't want to be a part of a community where none of their concerns are given the consideration they deserve.

I fully agree with this. I wouldn't have been a Tech Support staffer for 15 months if I didn't enjoy trying to make the place more enjoyable and helpful to members.

 

 

But lately it's become increasingly clear that certain issues (such as clarifying BNSFW rules) aren't being taken the least bit seriously, or so moderator responses would have me believe.

 

This is the issue. People believe they know what goes on behind the lines when they don't. When we say we will discuss something, we do. We don't just lie about it to make people back off. We activley seek to find a middle ground if at all possible so as to make the site more enjoyable for people.

 

Now, whilst I appreciate this discussion, as stated before this is getting slightly off topic in its focus. Please attempt to keep this focused on the topic of adding a list of banned topics to the forum rules.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Dawn Rider

[Simon 4,557]

I think you guys have to understand mod politics a little bit more.  If mods start coming on the thread and saying whether they agree or disagree with every idea and making arguments to support their personal views on here, and then behind the scenes the staff ultimately makes another decision, it makes the site look really, really bad.  Then they have to deal with the users who say "even your staff agreed with me, but you guys changed the rule without even considering that person's opinion blah blah blah". 

 

Staff are politicians... when suggestions get made, they explain why they do things the way they do, thank you for your suggestion, and then discuss it in depth behind the scenes on a staff chat.  You can't expect moderators to tip their cards and tell you all their personal opinions on every issue, but just because you're not seeing a bunch of staff members say "Your right the rules here suck, I think clop should be all over the place" doesn't mean all views aren't being considered by the staff.

 

This staff is staff because they care so much about this forum. They want it to be a better place as much or more so than any member does, so it's pretty harsh to say that they devote all their time and then just ignore everything you guys say.  It just isn't something they can discuss openly. 

[Yellow Diamond 7,576]

The rules are hard and binding, but they cannot hope to cover every case under the sun. In many cases we invoke a portion of the rules which would apply to instances that aren't otherwise explicitly covered; therefore, although we adhere closely to the text of the site rules, we aren't so slavish as to ignore potential infractions because the text says little or nothing. Our utmost priority is to protect the community and its members; as Simon said, sometimes that means we need to make judgment calls without drawing up a new entry into the FAQ section.

 

Simon is also correct with respect to the fact that we aren't legislators or lawyers: we don't have the time or resources to develop an intricate and comprehensive set of rules. Besides, in the vein of practicality, who would read them all? A number of members barely read over the the rules we currently have on the books! (That we have a rule on plagiarism is probably more comprehensive than most other forums.) Writing down more specific rules wouldn't necessarily enhance the justification of our decision making.

 

In the case of clop threads, we have chosen to cite precedent (or tradition) and experience. Those are perfectly legitimate tools for interpretation, especially since they are derived from the rules:

 

We do however, allow some discussion of NSFW material in a general sense. For example, it is ok for a member to provide his or her opinion on the presence of NSFW material on the internet. It is not ok for them to directly link any such material.

 

Note that "some discussion" is emphasized. This means we retain discretion regarding what is appropriate for the forums. The subsequent example does not box us into a corner, either, as experience, combined with the text, informs us that many discussions about clopping lead to that which is NSFW.

 

In sum, if someone takes the time to read the rules and quickly browse through the topics that have been closed, they should understand why such discussions are very often locked.

[Rainblow H. Ash 5,091]

The NSFW portion of the rules is up for some interpretation. That I understand.

 

But if clop topics are now being locked on sight, then why not just add a sentence that states the clop topics are not allowed?

 

I don't see what the problem here is. If that's the official response, then it might as well be made official in the rules, which, if taken by their lonesome, would indicate that creating a topic asking about clop is perfectly fine.

[Yellow Diamond 7,576]

For the sake of clarification, I have unilaterally added new text to the NSFW rule:

 

We do make one exception to discussing NSFW content: clopping. We have repeatedly encountered topics on the subject, almost all of which degenerate into members posting NSFW content or engaging in personal insults. Topics on clopping are thus prohibited, unless otherwise stated by a staff member in a particular case.

 

None of our past decisions are affected by this text -- but if you have a clopping thread locked, there is absolutely no excuse now.

[King 5,626]

As Spoon has added to the current NSFW rule to include a statement that disallows clop discussion, I see no reason for this thread to be open.

Thank you for the suggestion.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Dawn Rider