The Religious Tolerance Thread

[Tom Snyder 4,112]

I'm fine with people believing in whichever religion they want, but as along as they leave me out of it, then they'll be fine.

[Jeric 46,851]

This topic was created as a platform to openly discuss a positive and idealized view of religious tolerance. It is in General Discussion, yet some of the posts are taking an approach closer to an open debate by questioning the merits of religion. Topics in General Discussion on sensitive issues like race, gender, orientation, and religious are areas that should be free of debate like that.  Debating the virtues and flaws of a religious belief system is allowed in the Forum designed for it, namely Debate Pit. There are several posts that will need to be removed in order to preserve the intent of the OP and thread. I would appreciate it if this topic remains free of discourse related to whether belief system has flaws. 

 

It will reopen shortly (5 minutes)

Thread unlocked. 

[HaroldGenhi 82]

I am an agnostic atheist since the terms are relatively exclusive from each other. Basically, I've lived with a set scale to place people in terms of belief. You have Radical Theists, Theists, Agnostic Theists, Agnostic Atheist, Atheist, Radical Atheist. My position basically states, I don't know if there is a God(s) or not, but I tend to lean on there being none. I lean very much in Atheist position, but I will always admit that I don't know that such a being exists, could, I don't know. 

 

My reason for being an agnostic atheist is that I have always lived with a set of standards for my beliefs. I need sufficient evidence to believe something if not, I take the null position until the positive claim has been made. I am a man of science, I'll be getting my bachelor's degree in Physics this May and I'll be working on my PhD next. I have worked with astronomy, light, magnetism, you name it and all of it can be explained through natural processes. Even when we look at the quantum level, sure it is pretty counter-intuitive, but it is still generally explainable. This of course brought about the whole idea of why a God(s) are even remotely needed. My position only solidified more as I see countless fallacious arguments, cherry-picked quotes, and dishonest science from members of the other side. If the position for God was so reliable then I would have expected no reason to fabricate results or to misconstrue words to support your claim. Such dishonesty, for me, destroys any position you are trying to make to me. I was this way since elementary school where I was bullied for a few days because of my lack of belief. It didn't bother me. In high school, I would say I was very much the bad guy. I enjoyed causing flame wars just to tear people's religion apart, but then I grew up from that to what I am now. I still love to debate it and to get to know about religion, but I won't start the debate. I've restricted myself to only butting into a conversation when a scientific error has been made and that will be the only thing that I correct. That is my current position.

 

A common stereotype that I get is that I am immoral, heartless, and filled with sin, and because of this I will be going to Hell. All of that because I am an atheist. I would just point to my criminal record for the immoral statement. Atheists are very moral people and do so for the sake of humanity.  As for heartless, there is nothing supporting this. An atheist will cry and laugh like any other human being. As for filled with sin, we don't believe in sin and if we equate it to immoral acts it has already been addressed. Telling an atheist they are going to Hell is one of the least effective things to do. 1) Why would I believe someone who just threatened me with eternal damnation? Scare tactics are weak. 2) We atheists don't believe in God, therefore we don't believe in Heaven or Hell. It would be like threatening someone that your unicorn guardian will stab them. It will be greeted as a very empty threat. The threat of Hell only works on those who believe that Hell exists.

 

Another stereotype is that all atheists believe in evolution and science. This is not the case. I believe in evolution and science, but I have seen other atheists who do not believe in evolution. So I fit the stereotype, but it is a misconception about atheists.

[Steel Accord 6,660]

"As long as it's not-"

 

"I don't care what you-"

 

"Not all atheists are-"

 

I keep hearing variations on this as well as other threads. Just as I do in life elsewhere. 

 

I think those of us here who are religious share the sentiment, so does it really need to be said? The thread is called "religious tolerance" and it seems that the above preference the conditions required of such tolerance rather than the act of posting here. Even then, is that really tolerance or just restraint?

 

If you are already tolerant of all religions, why do you need to re-peat that you are, if you're not, why are you posting here?

Edited April 16, 2015 by Steel Accord

[Steel Accord 6,660]

This might seem tangential to the topic at hoof, but I promise there is some overlap. Who here studies any martial arts?

Edited April 17, 2015 by Steel Accord

[Overlord0909 479]

This might seem tangential to the topic at hoof, but I promise there is some overlap. Who here studies any martial arts?

I used to... O.o Still don't understand though... (Just needed to say that, so I'd get the right amount of characters the first time I try to post )

[Steel Accord 6,660]

I used to... O.o Still don't understand though... (Just needed to say that, so I'd get the right amount of characters the first time I try to post )

 

What style and/or school did you practice?

[NavelColt 22,880]

My tolerance comes largely through complete indifference. I just don't care. x) I'm not religious, so I find it boring to discuss religion, no matter which one or with who.

[Overlord0909 479]

What style and/or school did you practice?

Karate... Haven't been at the place in awhile so I don't remember... Sorry.

[Henny Penny Benny 936]

This might seem tangential to the topic at hoof, but I promise there is some overlap. Who here studies any martial arts?

I studied for a while, a system of traditional Japanese mixed martial arts comprised primarily of karate and jiu-jitsu. I'd love to pick it up again, but college made it tough to keep up (and to pay).

[Steel Accord 6,660]

Karate... Haven't been at the place in awhile so I don't remember... Sorry.

 

Oh no it's fine, I was just asking. When I said "school" I didn't mean the physical building, I meant as in "school of thought."

 

I ask because the martial arts often have a very spiritual aspect about them. I've been practicing Kung Fu for a few months now, complete with meditation, and it's really helped me come along religiously as well as physically.

I studied for a while, a system of traditional Japanese mixed martial arts comprised primarily of karate and jiu-jitsu. I'd love to pick it up again, but college made it tough to keep up (and to pay).

 

Yeah I know how you feel. The fee for my school wasn't too bad but because I don't have a car I had to pay drivers for the trip there and back three times a week! So I had to switch to an online school. Ironically I'm advancing faster that way than before! 

[Henny Penny Benny 936]

Oh no it's fine, I was just asking. When I said "school" I didn't mean the physical building, I meant as in "school of thought."

 

I ask because the martial arts often have a very spiritual aspect about them. I've been practicing Kung Fu for a few months now, complete with meditation, and it's really helped me come along religiously as well as physically.

Well personally, my Sensei wasn't teaching anything spiritual along with the martial arts. In fact, I distinctly remember him going out of his way not to bring religion or spirituality into his dojo: at the beginning and end of each class, we would kneel in a specific way for a brief moment of reflection, with our hands out in front of us, but he told us not to bring our heads down to touch our hands as that would bring religion into it. I liked that about him.

Yeah I know how you feel. The fee for my school wasn't too bad but because I don't have a car I had to pay drivers for the trip there and back three times a week! So I had to switch to an online school. Ironically I'm advancing faster that way than before! 

Aach, I just fear online wouldn't be the same. Which is probably just because I'm quite attached to my Sensei. He's a great man, and he actually trained directly under Shogo Kuniba Soke, who (at least according to my Sensei) was one of the highest ranked martial artists in Japan before he moved to the-middle-of-nowhere Keezletown, VA.

[Steel Accord 6,660]

Well personally, my Sensei wasn't teaching anything spiritual along with the martial arts. In fact, I distinctly remember him going out of his way not to bring religion or spirituality into his dojo: at the beginning and end of each class, we would kneel in a specific way for a brief moment of reflection, with our hands out in front of us, but he told us not to bring our heads down to touch our hands as that would bring religion into it. I liked that about him.

Aach, I just fear online wouldn't be the same. Which is probably just because I'm quite attached to my Sensei. He's a great man, and he actually trained directly under Shogo Kuniba Soke, who (at least according to my Sensei) was one of the highest ranked martial artists in Japan before he moved to the-middle-of-nowhere Keezletown, VA.

 

Well that's good for you and how you learn, but I would then look for a different teacher. One cannot separate the philosophy from the martial aspects, and yes the spirituality, in the tradition that I've been taught in.

 

One must have the wisdom and maturity to interpret the spiritual lessons on their own. Omitting them entirely, from my perspective, smacks of telling Adam and Even not to eat the Golden Fruit. 

 

Deny someone something and they crave it more, and when they get a taste of it, they don't know what to do with it our how to responsibly handle it.

 

My martial arts are how I grow closer to my inner self, and to God.

 

That's just me though.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Steel Accord

[Henny Penny Benny 936]

Well that's good for you and how you learn, but I would then look for a different teacher. One cannot separate the philosophy from the martial aspects, and yes the spirituality, in the tradition that I've been taught in.

 

One must have the wisdom and maturity to interpret the spiritual lessons on their own. Omitting them entirely, from my perspective, smacks of telling Adam and Even not to eat the Golden Fruit. 

 

Deny someone something and they crave it more, and when they get a taste of it, they don't know what to do with it our how to responsibly handle it.

 

My martial arts are how I grow closer to my inner self, and to God.

 

That's just me though.

Well, that's gonna be one point on which you and I differ. I want no "spirituality" whatsoever but that which I find in my King. And if I went back and started training again, and my Sensei did start teaching the "spiritual" side of it, I'd leave. Anything from which unBiblical "spirituality" cannot be separated, I want no part in.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Henny Penny Benny

[Steel Accord 6,660]

Well, that's gonna be one point on which you and I differ. I want no "spirituality" whatsoever but that which I find in my King. And if I went back and started training again, and my Sensei did start teaching the "spiritual" side of it, I'd leave. Anything from which unBiblical "spirituality" cannot be separated, I want no part in.

 

Again, agree to disagree.

[Love//Hack 819]

*hugs thread*
FINALLY! SOMEONE MAKES SUCH A THREAD!

 

I'm a Muslim personally but I can confirm that I'm no terrorist living in a Muslim family.

I honestly don't care about much about other people's religious views anyways.

In fact, the majority of my friends are Christian and the other half being atheist. I even have a catholic friend.

Personally, I don't care at all whether you're religious or not long as you're nice and don't force down your beliefs down mine and other peoples' throat besides mine.

 

Also, speaking of Islam/being Muslim and other religions. Most people forget the fact that Muslims like me believe that Jesus was a prophet of god. He and Mary were mentioned in the Quran plenty of times as much as Muhammad (the one who spreaded Islam).

We Muslims also believe that the god that Christains and Jews worship is the same god we worship although we call god Allah. Which is simply arabic for him.

 

Also, I feel atheism is more common and popular than religions. I don't know why, but everywhere I turn I see atheism more than Christainity or other religions on the internet but in real life it's mostly Christians I see. And both Judaism and Islam make up 2% in the United States if I recall correctly.

Edited April 18, 2015 by InspireLavender

[Steel Accord 6,660]

 

 

I even have a catholic friend.

 

Now you have two.  

 

 

 

Also, speaking of Islam/being Muslim and other religions. Most people forget the fact that Muslims like me believe that Jesus was a prophet of god. He and Mary were mentioned in the Quran plenty of times as much as Muhammad (the one who spreaded Islam).

 

I did know this actually.

 

 

 

We Muslims also believe that the god that Christains and Jews worship is the same god we worship although we call god Allah. Which is simply arabic for him.

 

I knew this as well. (Much as my mother needs convincing, unfortunately.)

 

 

 

Also, I feel atheism is more common and popular than religions. I don't know why, but everywhere I turn I see atheism more than Christainity or other religions on the internet but in real life it's mostly Christians I see. And both Judaism and Islam make up 2% in the United States if I recall correctly.

 

I know, it's really sad isn't it?

 

I've said before I don't have anything against atheism, even admit to it possibly being true (that's why we call our way faith), and admiring many atheist thinkers and philosophers; it is still a little disheartening to feel so outnumbered in the day to day life, especially in the classroom. 

[Overlord0909 479]

~Snip~

I've heard that Muslims get a lot of bad rep. It is really ignorant to call someone a terrorist, just because they're Muslim. People like to take certain details into consideration, and ignore the rest. I completely respect your religion, and wouldn't assume such irrational things. I mean, looking at my own faith, we've done some terrible things, but no Catholic ever will mention that. I don't mind though.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Overlord0909

[Steel Accord 6,660]

I mean, looking at my own faith, we've done some terrible things, but no Catholic ever will mention that. I don't mind though.

 

The Inquisition, witch hunts, burning the Templars like human candles. There, I mentioned them, and? That was the past, that doesn't reflect what we are now.

 

We have to learn from the past, acknowledge it happened, but if you hold the sins of those who committed evil centuries before you were even born, you'll never be redeemed. You can't be forgiven, for something you didn't do.

 

I try to redeem the Church today, by being accepting of all religions, all paths to God, that's how I choose to be, not because I feel guilty for something I wasn't even alive to object to.

@,

 

On that note though, if I ever have questions about Islam, might I look to you for some assistance? 

Edited April 18, 2015 by Steel Accord

[Love//Hack 819]

Now you have two.

 

The more friends, the merrier<3

(I've actually seen you commented on 2 or 3 other topics before one of them being "Would You Sacifice Yourself for the Fandom?" Can't quite recall what it was called.)

It's kind of ironic because one of my favorite movies is pro-catholic (the Disney verison of The Hunchback of Notre Dame). Haha

 

I knew this as well. (Much as my mother needs convincing, unfortunately.)

 

You could use tom show her some internet resorces or resorces from any other text such as any books that state so. Or get her to learn it from other Muslims. Although I'm sure she might act stubborn and not listen I suppose.

 

I know, it's really sad isn't it? I've said before I don't have anything against atheism, even admit to it possibly being true (that's why we call our way faith), and admiring many atheist thinkers and philosophers; it is still a little disheartening to feel so outnumbered in the day to day life, especially in the classroom.

 

I don't mind as long as they don't shove anything down other people's throats including mine. But that's quite true although I have nothing against both atheism and any religion. Faith is all we believe, some of us may be right or wrong. I don't think it matters personally. We just live life and try to enjoy it the best we can.

 

As I had said before a big quarter of my friends are atheist and I personally wouldn't care any less.

 

But you're quite right about being outnumbered.

 

I've heard that Muslims get a lot of bad rep. It is really ignorant to call someone a terrorist, just because they're Muslim. People like to take certain details into consideration, and ignore the rest. I completely respect your religion, and wouldn't assume such irrational things. I mean, looking at my own faith, we've done some terrible things, but no Catholic ever will mention that. I don't mind though.

 

It mostly gets a bad name from bloody stupid terrorist.

I have heard of bad things from catholics and catholicism. But no religion is perfect I suppose.

 

I completely respect yours' as well as all religions!

I'm quite glad nice people like you won't assume such things. I personally don't really care that much or look into my religion much unless it's Ramdian. (When Muslims do fasting which is not eating nor drinking all day until after sunset.) I don't even wear a shawl until then.

 

The Inquisition, witch hunts, burning the Templars like human candles. There, I mentioned them, and? That was the past, that doesn't reflect what we are now.

 

We have to learn from the past, acknowledge it happened, but if you hold the sins of those who committed evil centuries before you were even born, you'll never be redeemed. You can't be forgiven, for something you didn't do.

 

I try to redeem the Church today, by being accepting of all religions, all paths to God, that's how I choose to be, not because I feel guilty for something I wasn't even alive to object to.

@,

 

On that note though, if I ever have questions about Islam, might I look to you for some assistance? 

 

I quite agree to all of that.

 

Also, of course you can ask me any questions you wish! I'd be more than excited to do such and try my best to assistant you!

Edited April 18, 2015 by GoldenGlintingPurple

[Steel Accord 6,660]

 

 

(I've actually seen you commented on 2 or 3 other topics before one of them being "Would You Sacifice Yourself for the Fandom?" Can't quite recall what it was called.)

 

I believe my words were:

 

 

 

If someone planted a bomb beneath Bronycon and my attempts to stop the bomber would succeed but get me killed? Absolutely.   If the fandom marched against an armed branch of Westboro Baptist Church and they needed a champion to charge into the gunfire, sword drawn? Without a doubt.   If the fandom had an explicit brony candidate running as president and someone tried to assassinate him/her? I'd take that bullet with a smile.   If the fandom rules a small moon terraformed to resemble Equestria and a threat from our neighbors comes down? Where's the sign up sheet for enlistment?   Don't mistake me, I'm not preoccupied with death and I love my life. I just think some things are worth fighting and if necessary, dying for.

 

 

Although I wouldn't call that movie explicitly "pro-Catholic" it used many images and Latin chants of the Church, but it's more set dressing than promotion.

 

Plus Frolo considers himself a man of God and he's one of the most diabolical Disney Villains ever!

 

Which comes out as a pretty balanced depiction of the faith and story. So I would say it's less "pro-Catholic" and more "not anti-Catholic" which frankly is enough for me in this day and age.

 

 

 

You could use tom show her some internet resorces or resorces from any other text such as any books that state so. Or get her to learn it from other Muslims. Although I'm sure she might act stubborn and not listen I suppose.

 

Oh she would, I get my open mindedness from my parents, 9/11 and everything from there just kind of shook her a bit more than it did me.

 

 

 

I don't mind as long as they don't shove anything down other people's throats including mine. But that's quite true although I have nothing against both atheism and any religion. Faith is all we believe, some of us may be right or wrong. I don't think it matters personally. We just live life and try to enjoy it the best we can.   As I had said before a big quarter of my friends are atheist and I personally wouldn't care any less.

 

That's what I was saying, I don't even think they are by nature wrong. God has a plan and path for everyone after all, if His plan involves the person coming to Him in some other way, who am I, to say that person is damned?

 

I choose to have faith, but I'm a very faith driven person, so the Divine speaks to me best that way.

 

 

 

Also, of course you can ask me any questions you wish! I'd be more than excited to do such and try my best to assistant you!

 

Well with that note, what are Djinn exactly? I've heard the term loosely associated with Islam and the original myth behind Genies. Are they a part of the religion or just loosely associated with it?

[Love//Hack 819]

I believe my words were:

 

 

 

 

 

Although I wouldn't call that movie explicitly "pro-Catholic" it used many images and Latin chants of the Church, but it's more set dressing than promotion.

 

Plus Frolo considers himself a man of God and he's one of the most diabolical Disney Villains ever!

 

Which comes out as a pretty balanced depiction of the faith and story. So I would say it's less "pro-Catholic" and more "not anti-Catholic" which frankly is enough for me in this day and age.

 

 

 

 

Oh she would, I get my open mindedness from my parents, 9/11 and everything from there just kind of shook her a bit more than it did me.

 

 

 

 

That's what I was saying, I don't even think they are by nature wrong. God has a plan and path for everyone after all, if His plan involves the person coming to Him in some other way, who am I, to say that person is damned?

 

I choose to have faith, but I'm a very faith driven person, so the Divine speaks to me best that way.

 

 

 

 

Well with that note, what are Djinn exactly? I've heard the term loosely associated with Islam and the original myth behind Genies. Are they a part of the religion or just loosely associated with it?

 

1) - Ah, then I was right that it was you although I've never talked to you in that topic or the other ones I've seen you in.

 

2) - Hmm, most people consider it as pro-catholic. I just say that since most people tend to. What's more scary about Frollo is that how he believes he's a "righteous" thinking what he does is right. But personally besides being the darkest Disney villian (and the first to fall in love with the girl besides Gaston in Beauty and the Beast with some lust...) I say he's the most human villian out of all the Disney villians. Also, I think "Hellfire" was a outstanding song for a Disney villian. I'd shared my review for it if I knew how to post blog posts on MLP Forums.

 

3) - I say 9/11 shook me more than your mother was. Her stubborniness sounds like how stubborn my sister and big brother (techically my cousin but I call him my brother since we live with each other) are like except my brother is more easy to accpect rather than my little sister.

 

4) - Very, very true.

 

5) - I honestly didn't knew much about Djinn much myself. I'll tell you the short answer. They're actually called Dijnn in the game Dungeons & Dragons. They're actually called "Jinn". They've been mentioned in the Quarn holy book often although I never really read it. They've also been mentioned in other Muslim/Islamic text before from what I heard. Jinn are supernatural creatures in Islam mythology (and pre-Islamic Arabian mythology too) that are made from smokeless scorching fire according to the Quarn. It's said they have an unseen universe world to themselves known as the Dijnnestan beyond our universe. (Maybe why they're called Dijinn in Dungeons & Dragons...) They're psychical by nature and can communicate in a tactile manner with other non-living and living things. Jinn, angels, and humans make up the three sapients of god. Jinn can be either good or bad. Depends. Unlike angels but like humans they may have free will. In Christainity, they're the analogue of demons. However the Quaran says otherwise that they're not angels. It shows a clear distinction between them both. The book states in the Cave (known as surat Al-Kahf), Ayah 50, that Iblis/Azazel is one of the Jinn

 

For your long answer to know more on them, there is a wikipedia page on them where I got some of this info.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinn

 

Edited April 18, 2015 by GoldenGlintingPurple

[Steel Accord 6,660]

 

 

2) - Hmm, most people consider it as pro-catholic. I just say that since most people tend to. What's more scary about Frollo is that how he believes he's a "righteous" thinking what he does is right. But personally besides being the darkest Disney villian (and the first to fall in love with the girl besides Gaston in Beauty and the Beast with some lust...) I say he's the most human villian out of all the Disney villians. Also, I think "Hellfire" was a outstanding song for a Disney villian. I'd shared my review for it if I knew how to post blog posts on MLP Forums.

 

Meh, just take my word with a grain of salt. Although, I do admit I like how the Archdeacon is portrayed as a true man of God, welcoming, wise, and compassionate, but also just in the face of cruelty as personified by Frollo.

 

Speaking of whom, yes I agree. His humanity is exactly why he's one of the darkest Disney villains! His conviction and faith that he's doing the right thing in the absence of self awareness, wisdom, and humility is what spills over into self-righteous delusion.

 

Which is why my absolute favorite part of that movie is when Frollo is about to strike the killing blow while quoting scripture.

 

Frollo: And He shall reach down and smite the wicked and plunge them into the fiery pit.

 

Me: Yes, He will.  :okiedokielokie:

 

And then Frollo falls into the molten slag.

 

 

 

5) - I honestly didn't knew much about Djinn much myself. I'll tell you the short answer. They're actually called Dijnn in the game Dungeons & Dragons. They're actually called "Jinn". They've been mentioned in the Quarn holy book often although I never really read it. They've also been mentioned in other Muslim/Islamic text before from what I heard. Jinn are supernatural creatures in Islam mythology (and pre-Islamic Arabian mythology too) that are made from smokeless scorching fire according to the Quarn. It's said they have an unseen universe world to themselves known as the Dijnnestan beyond our universe. (Maybe why they're called Dijinn in Dungeons & Dragons...) They're psychical by nature and can communicate in a tactile manner with other non-living and living things. Jinn, angels, and humans make up the three sapients of god. Jinn can be either good or bad. Depends. Unlike angels but like humans they may have free will. In Christainity, they're the analogue of demons. However the Quaran says otherwise that they're not angels. It shows a clear distinction between them both. The book states in the Cave (known as surat Al-Kahf), Ayah 50, that Iblis/Azazel is one of the Jinn

 

Hmmm that's honestly quite a fascinating cosmology right there.   I'll be sure to send you a PM if I have any further queries.   

[Love//Hack 819]

 

 

Frollo: And He shall reach down and smite the wicked and plunge them into the fiery pit. Me: Yes, He will. :okiedokielokie: And then Frollo falls into the molten slag.

 

Sweet, sweet irony at it's finest!<3

 

 

Hmmm that's honestly quite a fascinating cosmology right there.   I'll be sure to send you a PM if I have any further queries.   

Alrighty then. Would be ever so happy to answer them all.

[Suukorak 354]

 

 

Also, I feel atheism is more common and popular than religions. I don't know why, but everywhere I turn I see atheism more than Christainity or other religions on the internet but in real life it's mostly Christians I see. And both Judaism and Islam make up 2% in the United States if I recall correctly.

 

 

I've said before I don't have anything against atheism, even admit to it possibly being true (that's why we call our way faith), and admiring many atheist thinkers and philosophers; it is still a little disheartening to feel so outnumbered in the day to day life, especially in the classroom. 

Especially in the classroom. Yes, I've come across this, too - it seems to be the "cool" thing to be atheist now. If you want to feel smarter, why not explain to someone else why their religion, and hence their whole life, is dumb and founded on a lie?

Great way to make friends.

/sarcasm

I am curious, though, how the topic has come up. It's not something in the regular curriculum of most schools.

 

@, I have two questions, if you don't mind answering them.

1. I've often seen people trying to debunk the myth that all Muslims are terrorists. This would suggest that there are many people who believe the opposite, yet I have never met one. Of course, I wouldn't be as able to find them as a Muslim, so I'll ask. Are such people common? Have you met any before?

2. Out of curiosity, what do you think of Sufism? In fact, I wonder what anyone here thinks of it. It's an interesting approach to religion, one that I haven't seen much elsewhere.

[link for reference]