S05:E13 - Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep?

[melody5697 195]

I saw that a few people don't like the fact that Celestia didn't do anything to try to help Luna. Because of my past experiences, I think I may be able to give a bit of insight into that. I think it's pretty obvious that Luna just didn't tell her. But I guess some of you people don't understand WHY she didn't tell her. If you don't want to read about my feelings that I will be using as examples, stop reading this. Anyway, for a lot of people, it's very difficult to talk about those kind of things. I don't really know why, though. I did some very bad things (not nearly as bad as Nightmare Moon, but still bad, and I hurt people who were very important to me, and I once thought of doing something that nobody would ever forgive me for) and I absolutely hated myself for it. People knew about some parts, but I didn't talk about it and I didn't tell anyone how upset I was about it. I was mentally beating myself up and I started hurting myself as punishment for the things I did. But of course I didn't tell anyone. That would've made them worried about me. And I was very good at hiding it. My dad had no idea anything was wrong until I was in the hospital for my first suicide attempt, and when I started seeing a therapist I was able to hide it from him too. I didn't tell him anything and he thought I was fine. It's actually pretty easy when you don't have full-blown major depressive disorder. Princess Luna was most likely the same in many ways. She did something terrible. She hated herself. People knew about what she did, but she didn't show just how bad she felt. She started punishing herself with nightmares (although her exact motives were different from mine). She loves Celestia and didn't want Celestia to know how much she was hurting because she knew it would hurt Celestia, especially the part about self-harming. She was able to hide her feelings very well. But I could be completely wrong about all this. After all, how everything started going long for me was very different from how everything started going wrong for Luna. It's pretty amazing that she wasn't a lot worse off than she was (mentally, I mean). Of course, she DID probably have therapy 24/7 until Luna Eclipsed (she was probably such a wreck before that episode she couldn't be out in public). Or it could just be that they couldn't show her being any more traumatized than she's shown to be in this episode since MLP is a kids show.

 

I hope I didn't say anything stupid...

Edited July 12, 2015 by melody5697

[VengefulStrudel 1,486]

I loved this episode! It had a good story and pretty good moral, I used to be quite harsh and unforgiving on myself, so I can relate to Luna. It also had a good share of "what the hay is going on?" moments xD I fell in love with the final dream sequence...Also, more Lyrabon, yay! (Catdog, anyone? )

[IcefireInfinite 227]

I guess when the voice actor of Big Mac cosplayed as the alicorn version of himself the writers saw it and were like, "Hey guys! I just had the best idea!"

[Pastel 7,630]

Luna's episodes are always awesome, this one makes no exception.

The big dream at the end was a bit disappointing (too much references to previous episodes, and Princess MacIntosh WTF), but other than that, great plot and animation.

 

Also, we can briefly see Fluttershy's fang at the beginning of the episode.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Blobulle

[Guest]

From a psychological perspective, I believe some of the themes explored in Season 5 are the most mature (and maybe darkest) of FiM to date and I have a feeling this will increase as the season progresses.

[Antidaeophobia 299]

Really cool episode, of course for a moment there, I thought they were following the plot for the first MLP comic with Nightmare Rarity, and I started getting all pumped about seeing that. But I enjoyed this episode anyway. The idea that Luna has been systematically punishing herself for being Nightmare Moon is sort of sad. I always liked Luna, but now I think for sure she's best princess. 
Also, does anyone else think the Tantabus looks like the nightwalker from Princess Mononoke. 

Edited July 12, 2015 by Antidaeophobia

[DJShy 873]

Not to be that guy, but I've been told that the name of the "villain" of this episode is spelled wrong in the original post.

 

It isn't 'Tantabus', it's 'Tantibus' and it is latin for nightmare.

 

Then again, my informant and I could easily be wrong...

Also, does anyone else think the Tantabus looks like the nightwalker from Princess Mononoke. 

 

That's actually the third time I heard that, and I've never seen whatever kind of show that is... Although, from that picture, the animation looks cool.

Edited July 12, 2015 by DJShy3

[Tao 7,599]

This minus the opening two eps is the best far of season 5.  Once more a good shout out to the fans of the show and adding

in a little something for all watchers. Some throw backs also to the past seasons is a nice touch down memory road.  Good timing

on the humor only added more.  Luna is a win and knowing Tia has somethings she can't do is a good grounding to hear.

[Thaliel 116]

some ponies really have weird dreams.
I absolutely adored Luna's Bedroom, especially the bed itself, I wish I had a bed like that.
Also, could I have a gif of her head bobbing due to spike tugging on her mane? (which I still think was really bad behaviour)
 

That's actually the third time I heard that, and I've never seen whatever kind of show that is... Although, from that picture, the animation looks cool.

It is a spiritual being/deity that the forest god changes into every night (he/it is a deer during the day), though my memory tells me neither of the forms meant any harm to the living beings. I suggest you catch the movie when it's on TV or buy the dvd, Mononoke is a great movie

Edited July 12, 2015 by Thaliel

[Antidaeophobia 299]

Not to be that guy, but I've been told that the name of the "villain" of this episode is spelled wrong in the original post.

 

It isn't 'Tantabus', it's 'Tantibus' and it is latin for nightmare.

 

Then again, my informant and I could easily be wrong...

 

That's actually the third time I heard that, and I've never seen whatever kind of show that is... Although, from that picture, the animation looks cool.

Princess Mononoke is a fantastic animation. It really is about learning to respect and live in harmony with your environment. It's one of my favorite animations. 

 

 

It isn't 'Tantabus', it's 'Tantibus' and it is latin for nightmare.

 

I think you might be right now that I take it into consideration. I know a little latin, and it would make sense it would be called 'Nightmare'.  

[Lexamena 391]

Is Big Mac the first male alicorn the show has had?

[StitchandMLPlover 930]

Of course didn't you see him? Fluttershy transformed in to Flutterbat and bit a house monster freeing him.

Yeah thought that was him but I wasn't sure until I saw the episode a 2nd time. I like that they are using the background characters from ep 100 as a way of further developing them. 

Is Big Mac the first male alicorn the show has had?

Yes, as far as I know he is the first and only male Alicorn we have seen.

[BlackWater627 700]

I've been thinking about this episode ever since I watched it. I'll be honest, whilst I like Luna, I have always like the other princesses above her. That was until now. Luna's self-punishment to remind her of her guilt is something I can really relate to, as such, my dreams nor my sleep are particularly pleasant experiences most of the time. From a psychological perspective, I believe some of the themes explored in Season 5 are the most mature (and maybe darkest) of FiM to date and I have a feeling this will increase as the season progresses.

 

I can definitely say that the most liked episodes so far have been ones that people could personally relate to. I also related to this one, which is partly why I liked it so much (also because I love Luna, though  ). My sleep is kind of mixed. I prefer dreamless sleep. When I remember any part of my dreams, they are usually horrifying, tiring, or just plain weird.  I think I had a really awesome and pleasant dream...once. 

[ManaMinori 4,145]

Did anyone notice big Mac BECAME A ALICORN IN THE DREAM + images (55).jpg

I'd be more surprised if someone DIDN'T notice Edited July 12, 2015 by Nightmare Muffin

[Blaze Bronson 343]

Am I the only one who felt like the resolution was somewhat a reference to this scene?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwFNWyqHHyY&ab_channel=Typhii

[Thunderlane 550]

On second viewing, it's still amazing. They captured Luna's desperation so well...

[Denim&Venöm 18,756]

Oh what a freakin trip this was.  I promised myself that if we got Nightmarity in this, I was going to german suplex the recliner I was on.

 

The recliner is still in it's usual spot, suffice to say. 

 

Not much to say when it's been already said. Pacing seemed to be the only issue, at least based on your tastes on what constitutes a good episode.  It seems for the most part, the craziest episodes curry the most favor with the fans. 

 

I like how the show appears to be growing with it's audience. Think about it, members of the target demographic are teens or pre-teens at this point. This show started almost 5 years ago. They're getting to the point in life where issues like forgiving yourself or even self harm are going to confront them, and it's a noble thing for the show to address such things for those that have stuck around, yet not in a way that alienates newer viewers. Many kids shows refuse to grow up, or on the rare occasion, remain exclusive to its early audience. MLP is managing to grow with old fans and embrace new ones. And I applaud it and all who work to make it the show what it is today. 

 

Related song is related. 

Edited July 12, 2015 by Denim&Venom

[Music Chart Fan 819]

Overall, this episode was okay. It's good to see more development of Princess Luna's character. Luna's guilt about becoming Nightmare Moon, and the scene where Twilight and the Mane Six convince her that she doesn't need to beat herself up for it, are at least somewhat relatable, understandable, and emotionally impactful. The zaniness of the Mane Six's dreams, and especially the shared dream, was a bit eyeroll-inducing, but otherwise not too bad. However, there was some clunky dialogue, and the resolution of Luna's deep-seated and serious conflict (and by extension, that of the episode itself) does seem to come too quickly and easily right at the end of the episode.

 

One big question I had was about the Mane Six's dreams, namely, was Luna controlling or steering their dreams in her efforts to contain the Tantabus? One reason I thought of this is seeing how the Mane Six all dreamed specifically about things they like, and none of their dreams, other than Pinkie's at the end, had any other ponies in them. That would seem like a massive coincidence by itself; I would think that most people don't dream specifically of things they like to do, and I would think that a lot of dreams would have other people in them. So maybe Luna was guiding their dreams to be positive and not to have other ponies in them, so that the Tantabus would become obvious in ruining their positive dreams, and so that the Tantabus couldn't enter anyone else's dreams. But, Luna doesn't seem to be in control of where Pinkie's dream goes, and when Luna enters Rainbow Dash's dream, Luna isn't aware that Rainbow punching/kicking out changelings is her favorite dream. Thus, it would appear that Luna isn't dictating their dreams; that is, Luna doesn't seem to know or control exactly what they're dreaming about. So I don't know, the extent to which Luna might be steering their dreams is unclear.

 

Another big concept brought up in the episode is obviously Luna's guilt about the harm she's caused for others, particularly as Nightmare Moon, which goes mostly unquestioned and without comment until the resolution of the episode. Luna says to the Mane Six (and Spike) gathered in the bedroom that they have suffered so much because of her, and so she initially rejects their help. Luna repeats this to Rarity in her dream. And, of course, Luna later reveals that she created the Tantabus to punish herself for the evil she caused as Nightmare Moon, and to make sure she never forgave herself for how much Equestria suffered because of her. As Luna made all these statements, I wondered just how much harm Luna caused specifically as Nightmare Moon, and whether her guilt is really justified. So, below, I'll try to explore that.

 

First, Princess Celestia has both said and demonstrated that she was deeply hurt by seeing her own sister turn into Nightmare Moon (and seeing the feelings that caused that), and by having to banish her own sister and co-ruler of Equestria to the moon for a thousand years. Celestia's suffering is very legitimate and understandable, and that is something that Luna would have to work out between her and Celestia. In fact, Luna might have already done that, or at least might be working on doing that. So, taking Celestia's grief, additional responsibilities, etc. as a given, what other evil and suffering did Luna as Nightmare Moon actually cause?

 

Let's consider the day when Luna became Nightmare Moon. Going by the flashback in "Princess Twilight", Luna didn't seem to cause much enduring suffering, especially considering that she was banished to the moon about 5 minutes after becoming Nightmare Moon. In the flashback, we don't see Nightmare Moon harm or even scare anyone at the castle other than Celestia. She did zap and destroy parts of the Castle of the Two Sisters, and that (along with perhaps the grief of the memories of Luna there) caused Celestia and the castle staff to move to a (presumably new) castle in Canterlot. So Luna as Nightmare Moon caused suffering basically equivalent to a natural disaster striking the castle - wealth was spent building a new castle, and Celestia and the castle staff were displaced. Additionally, some of the castle staff or others who knew Princess Luna may have been traumatized/depressed/etc. that the Princess Luna they knew and served had turned into Nightmare Moon and was banished to the moon. All in all, that's not nothing, but, assuming the ponies back then were reasonably resilient, Luna probably didn't cause too much lasting harm. And in any case, those events are long in the past, and would not be causing any significant suffering in the present.

 

In between her banishment and return, Luna as Nightmare Moon again probably didn't cause any lasting suffering. Equestrians were apparently so unconcerned about Nightmare Moon that she and the story of her banishment passed into legend; that is, Equestrians didn't even think that Nightmare Moon was real, let alone that she could cause them worry or harm.

 

Finally, let's consider what Luna as Nightmare Moon did upon returning from the moon in the first two episodes of the show. Again, she only see her cause temporary harm to a few guard ponies and creatures in the Everfree Forest. She did give Ponyville (and anyone else who heard) a scare by coming back, threatening to make the night last forever, and causing Celestia to temporarily disappear, but this would have only lasted until Nightmare Moon was defeated, which was probably a few hours or so. Nightmare Moon made the Mane Six have to brave the Everfree Forest and eventually defeat her, but if they were to be asked, they would probably all say that they have no long-lasting suffering from that, and they even became friends and realized that they're the bearers of the Elements of Harmony in the process.

 

So, in conclusion, Luna's guilt about the evil and suffering she caused as Nightmare Moon, whether for the Mane Six, for Ponyville, or for Equestria in general, seems largely misplaced. For all we know, the only way that Nightmare Moon affected the average Equestrian was by (1) turning day into night for a few minutes on the day she was banished, and (2) delaying the sunrise for a few hours on the day of her return. It appears as though the Mane Six, Ponyville, and maybe even Celestia have mostly forgiven and/or forgotten her past misdeeds as Nightmare Moon.

 

Now, it's still possible, and even probable, that Luna is blowing her past misdeeds out of proportion in her mind, and believing that she caused much more evil and suffering than she actually did. It would be understandable and believable for her to do that. So I think it would be worth pointing out to Luna, as I outlined above, that she caused relatively little harm to Equestria as Nightmare Moon in the grand scheme of things, especially since she seems committed now to protecting Equestria, fending off nightmares, etc.

 

Now for some of my other observations:

 

Luna has slippers by her bed, as though she just took them off or would put them on when getting up, but she's already wearing her metal hoofwear while sleeping, so when would she wear the slippers?

 

I don't know why Rainbow Dash, of all the Mane Six, sounds the most concerned about the Tantabus escaping the dream realm and turning Equestria into a living nightmare.

 

In Twilight's bedroom, we first see Pinkie fall asleep in Applejack's bed along with Applejack, but when they all wake up, Pinkie and Applejack are in their own beds. When (and how) did that happen?

 

When the Mane Six first wake up, Spike appears to be hiding a comic book inside of a regular book, but why does he have to hide the fact that he's reading a comic?

 

Luna says that the Tantabus infecting more dreams gives it more power, and I guess that might be true, but only indirectly because Luna feels more guilt about causing more ponies to suffer.

 

Would the Mane Six actually need to save the residents of Ponyville in the shared dream? Would any actual physical harm come to them if they're harmed in the dream? Do they need to make sure no one wakes up from fright and exits the shared dream?

 

Twilight says to the Ponyville residents in the shared dream that anything the residents of Ponyville can do in their dreams, they can do now, but what does that mean exactly? We see, for example, spike turn into "brave knight" mode, and Scootaloo grow enormous wings, perhaps indicating that "dreams" might refer to "greatest desires". But does that necessarily correspond to their literal dreams when they're asleep? For example, the dreams I remember after waking up haven't really involved me having superpowers or even having my greatest desires (to the extent I would be able to articulate such things). Or does Twilight mean that in the shared dream, they can do anything they can imagine? If that were the case, then why couldn't one of them, say, imagine that the Tantabus is contained in an impenetrable container and be done with it?

 

When the Mane Six first wake up from the shared dream at the end of the episode, Luna and the pillows she sleeps on aren't anywhere in sight; they only appear when Fluttershy shushes Spike and points Luna out on the floor.

[Time Shield 402]

*lot of stuff*

 

We have no idea what Luna did prior to the flashback we saw.  She may have caused a lot of suffering in some shape or form before she was confronted by Celestia and turned into Nightmare Moon.  This could only make Luna feel more guilty, since it was technically before her full transformation.

[Poetic Stone 1,040]

Love this episode, it was awesome, I loved the Alicorn Big Mac that was so cool. I also like the power ponies reboot, and it was a luna episode so you can't go wrong, AWESOME!!!!!!!!!

[roptiriolg 49]

An episode focusing on Princess Luna - I was looking forward to it! And I can say the best episode that features her (how long ago such episode was present?), imo. There is never enough of Princess Luna <3  :comeatus:  - she was participating throughout the whole episode and that was good - but I agree it was rushed ending. When I first read the title it looked like a weird episode name but now what matters is the episode itself. Indeed, Luna's character's been developed further, and since she didn't say much throughout past episodes, one couldn't tell before.

 

I loved it! Starting from the very plot - I myself do experiments with my dreams to as much as their occurrence randomly allows me, so an episode about that - awesome!

 

 

some ponies really have weird dreams.
I absolutely adored Luna's Bedroom, especially the bed itself, I wish I had a bed like that.

 

I thought I was the only one who paid attention to it, I love her bed! Feels so Luna-like - the whole bedroom and the shape of her bed!

 

 

 

I liked the Canterlot Wedding and seeing the changelings again was also good. Also the Flutterbat from Season (2 or 3) - wow! Yeah Princess BigMac was funny but really - I was seeing PRINCE, did he really turn into princess xD

 

My most fave 2 ponies seen in one screenshot, arent they nice

 

 

Followed by my third and most fave background pony, Lyra (and Minuette was in the episode again). Lyra and Sweetie Drops are sooo dreaming of bonding together.. literally. I knew it - it is more than friendship and I love it

 

 

So was there a Powerponies reference like they appeared in Manehathan?  I have to watch again, still,  I did see their outfits as they appeared in Twilight's Kingdom.

 

Above all, I was just in love with the cuteness of Princess Luna since 'Luna Eclipsed' and now seeing her in sweat and in tears - for some reason makes me love her even much more, maybe because of compassion for her sadness. I mean isn't she godlike cute:

 

 

 

 

 

 

I love how Luna even admits that Celestia is useless

Hah did she? (I agree) Must have missed/forgotten that.

 

 

It really should have been a two-parter, some kind of mid-season finale.

I agree,I like the separation into halves, I myself do it to compare first half and 2nd half of a season, as other shows also had a difference in the first 13 and last 13 episodes, usually the 2nd half being even better.  It is not uncommon to have a 2 part episode before last episodes in 26 ep shows (like what I watched in the past with same format and duration - Totally spies they also would separate the season by 1/2 and air them in different months). Though, if they wondered how to fill in the episode count to 26,  2nd part of this would've made it.

 

In conclusion: Hasbro you made us EXPLODE with some of these episodes and this one, good job !    And awww from the posts I learnt that 2nd half of Season5 isn't coming until (October), I was fine with them having a break, didn't think it would be that big - but they should use it to continue to deliver such episodes like today's and even better.

 

 

For example, the dreams I remember after waking up haven't really involved me having superpowers or even having my greatest desires (to the extent I would be able to articulate such things)

I previously mentioned I have done some experimentation on my dreams, I know that there are these types of dreams - random and illogical, realistic (informative), nightmares and warnings. I know the dreams as explained by science are simply a representation of emotional state, but I can say, I've had dreams of future places I would later go to,  without knowing what they look like, people I would meet without expecting or planning it. I had dreams that can become reality especially in recent world events that I would call warning - especially climate dreams - and none of these dreams are provoked by my continuous thinking about them. They happen exactly when I don't expect or think about such things for months or more, they occur at the least expected times and I can't control when they occur. And speaking of powers (yes I know, from the unrealistic ones - I do keep track on some of them):

 

19.10.2011. Someone, not seen who, tells me how to levitate myself using my mind and thinking of something related to charges. I can then see myself levitating any time I want and with ease. I feel the levitation as absolutely real. I state that at first it was hard, then it became easy to do.

 

(never thought about it or anything air related but the flying was so real that I really wanted it to have it in the dream and I don't dream about it outside a dream)

Edited July 12, 2015 by ImtR

[Horse 63]

Princess Big Mac!!!  Awesomeness.

[Abia 258]

@@Music Chart Fan, as always, your thoughts are a pleasure to read. One thing:

 

I believe the point was that Luna's guilt was unnecessarily intense. Very few bad things actually happened when Luna became Nightmare Moon: some property was destroyed, Celestia was traumatized. When she returned, some ponies were scared, Celestia was thrilled, and the princess resumed her role in Equestria. Nightmare Moon's goal was eternal night, which isn't that bad at all. I mean, I'd be bummed, but I'd definitely prefer the wrath of Nightmare Moon to that of Discord, Chrysalis, Tirek, or Starlight Glimmer.

 

Luna's guiltiness was exaggerated in her own mind, which was the idea. Everyone makes mistakes and, while you should recognize when you've done something down, torturing yourself over past misdeeds isn't going to benefit anyone.

In other words, her guilt was intentionally overdone (to my interpretation).

 

--

 

The episode was okay. The dreams of the mane six were all pretty boring and eyeroll-worthy. Goofy-looking monsters aren't all that nightmarish in my book, especially when compared to Luna's dream, and the other things the mane six have endured.

 

Luna's guilt was pretty tiring in my opinion. Her creating the blue smoke thingy (I don't remember the name of it and I don't feel like looking it up) was cool, but her big confession at the end didn't do anything for me. It was exasperating. I don't enjoy watching characters pity themselves.

 

Parts were interesting, other parts were exasperating and boring. They even out to an acceptable but dull and tired episode.

 

Edit: After further thought, I didn't like this episode because I am sick of Nightmare Moon. She was a weak villain who made virtually no effect and I see no reason to keep rehashing Luna's guilt. I get it, she feels bad. Move on to something interesting.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Abia

[Brainstorm 4,107]

One of the best mlp episodes yet

[Music Chart Fan 819]

We have no idea what Luna did prior to the flashback we saw.  She may have caused a lot of suffering in some shape or form before she was confronted by Celestia and turned into Nightmare Moon.  This could only make Luna feel more guilty, since it was technically before her full transformation.

 

 

Yeah, fair enough, although Luna does specifically say that she created the Tantabus "to punish myself for the evil I caused as Nightmare Moon", and right after says that it was "to make sure I never forgave myself for how much Equestria suffered because of me", which might be seen in the context of her immediately previous statement to refer to suffering because of her transformation into Nightmare Moon. I'll admit I'm not sure what Luna might have done pre-transformation that would have caused Equestria in general to suffer, considering that it seems to me like even Luna as Nightmare Moon did very little to interrupt the day-to-day lives of the average citizens of Equestria. But, of course, since Luna seems to be inflating her relatively minor misdeeds in her mind and feeling overly guilty about them, any pre-transformation misdeeds would be included in that.