S07:E25+E26 - Shadow Play

[Hierok 11,831]

2 minutes ago, Jeric said:

Sees the "where's Discord?" mention that impacted someone's enjoyment of the episode. 

Honestly, Discord's reformation might well be the worst thing to happen to the show from a narrative point of view. Not for me, but certainly for many others who can't seem to get past the fact he isn't going to be Voltron's Blazing Sword like they seemingly want.

The problem with Discord is that is too strong. If you put him in an episode the episode is over in less then a minute. He was the reason Chrysalis had an anti-magic throne. 

[AlbaTross 1,586]

I first saw these episodes a couple weeks ago, and then rewatched them last night, but I wanted to wait until they officially aired to comment on them.  I actually think the season7 finale is better than the much more hyped up theatrical movie.  Having the pillars return and learning they were the ones who essentially planted the Tree of Harmony blows my mind, and I look forward to seeing how these characters fit into season 8.

[Sly 236]

2 hours ago, Dark Qiviut said:

@Sly made a point in the past. When you compare this to the FIM Movie, SP blows it out of the water in sheer, overall quality, and especially the characterization of the cast. The film had 99 minutes to juggle with close to 20 characters, yet several of them (including AJ, FS, Grubber, and Novo) were very flat, didn't contribute to the story beyond being there, and sometimes had awful dialogue. If comparing story, music, animation, and characters, the characters are the weakest and worst part of the film. However, in less than half the time, Haber juggled with 15 characters, not including side ones, and each line was important, organically placed, and had personality. Not one of the large group was slighted in any way. It wove Starlight into SP without feeling out of place or making the others look unlikeable.

Darn straight!

But by the time it officially aired in USA, I also considered another little detail: as he was their teacher over a thousand of years before the events of the series, now that Starswirl is back in the present timeline, the possibilities of seeing the backstory of Luna and Celestia have been highly raised!

[Truffles 2,033]

2 hours ago, WiiGuy2014 said:

Perhaps a little bit of all 3.

I definitely see him being a combination of the three side characters:

- He has Sunburst's penchant for being studious but not good at performing magic.

- He seems to be their go-to guy like Spike whenever they need assistance with something.

- And he clearly has Starlight's hurt feelings that led her to becoming evil.

 

1 hour ago, Aethylynn said:

Technically he is not one of the pillars, so he wouldn't necessarily have a counterpart. He was sort of like their manager.

You know, the one who books their appearances, and pays off the hotel when they trash their room.

Heh, I guess he really is like their own version of #1 assistant Spike, then. XD

 

54 minutes ago, CloudMistDragon said:

No, not the scene of Pinkie hugging AJ’s ass and possible implications of Garble being a pedo (HE HAS TO LET ME GIVE IT TO HIM)

Wait, wut? Usually I don't miss an opportunity to note saucy humor, but somehow I did this time. XD

 

10 minutes ago, Jeric said:

Honestly, Discord's reformation might well be the worst thing to happen to the show from a narrative point of view. Not for me, but certainly for many others who can't seem to get past the fact he isn't going to be Voltron's Blazing Sword like they seemingly want.

This. I was thinking the same thing while watching the movie. Fluttershy was in danger but Discord wasn't around to lift a finger to help her during that conflict. But it would have been completely unsatisfying to have him swoop in and save the day or have some sort of macGuffin around to nerf his powers (though I do wonder if the cage and orbs that trapped the princesses was made of the same stuff Chrysalis' throne was made of), so unfortunately having him be reformed and at full power really is like the proverbial concrete block weighing the whole series down due to his fans complaining about the lack of logic of him being there to set things right, at least for Fluttershy. 

 

So as I type this I am sitting in my car getting internet where I can because my modem bricked itself and won't be back online until sometime next week, so these will probably be my only other comments on the episode for a little while, aside from the ones I made in the leak thread a few weeks ago while traveling.

On the plus side, DirecTV finally added the HD feed of Discovery Family, so I got to see this episode in glorious high-definition. 

Anyway, I mostly like the finale just as well as when I saw the leaked version. I do agree some some of the comments, however, that it would have been good if they had included a bit more of the Shadow Pony wreaking havoc to make it clear why everyone's instinct would be to banish him again. Also, I wonder if the dark force that gave him his power was somehow related to the same one that gave Nightmare Moon her power? It would have been fantastic if they had been able to link the two, but the episode still did an amazing job with juggling all the characters in the limited time it had.

I wonder if they'll make Flash Magnus an honorary Wonderbolt? Either way, the shipping fuel between him and Rainbow is already large enough to catch fire as it is now...

[The Nth Doctor 662]

Can't wait for all the Stygian/Luna fanart this is gonna spawn.

Rather disappointed Twilight failed miserably in being the Princess of Friendship though, but she's been Celestia'd, so I guess that can't be avoided.

I mean, it could, but that'd be giving the writers too much credit.

[Courageous Thunder Dash 7,824]

This episode was epic! Way to chain it with both Campfire Tales and Daring Done. Daring Do's appearance was great, and the redemption was amazing! I knew Star Swirl had some flaws in him and I'm glad he admitted to his mistakes. Great to see all the legendary ponies alive and back in Equestria again, and boy, the lesson hit home yet again. You can't let pride into your heart, which may lead to ignoring someone. That someone will be hurt and seek revenge as anger and jealousy fills their heart. 

 

100/10 would re-watch many more times. 

[Truffles 2,033]

One other thing that's worth mentioning is how this episode showed the growth of Rainbow Dash's character since season 1. If she were like how she was in "Fall Weather Friends," she would have insisted on doing the second race with Garble for the artifact, even though Spike had already won it fair and square.

It surprised me even more when she used her noggin and actually tricked him into giving her the shield, avoiding a waste of time (and potentially another double-cross) and simply flew off with it! It was amusing to say the least.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Truffles

[Jade Fire 7,059]

this episode was great! ^-^ my only complaint and was that starlight's cutie mark wasnt with the other 6 on the map, even though the map called her earlier in the season and she was the one that really fixed the issue, and i know it only called the 6 way to show where the pony of shadows was anyway so it doesnt really matter, and that it's a small continuity issue, but this show is normally really great with continuity and it would been a great way to tie the season together.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Jade Fire

[Sonic5421 423]

I think this is one of my favorite finales out of the series so far. Not only do we finally see Star Swirl the Bearded after so many mentions during the course of the series, but also all the Pillars from the Legends of Magic comics. Also, we get a cameo appearance from our old enemies from Rainbow Rocks, the Dazzlings, when the Pillars fought them and first banished them to the human world all that time ago. Not to mention that once everything is set and done, Star Swirl is given a chance to meet his former pupils in the Royal Sisters after so long, who are hoping to have him return to Canterlot to continue his teachings with the new generation of ponies.

However, Star Swirl feels that he and the other Pillars need some time to explore Equestria and see how much has changed over the last 1,000 years before they settle down and get used to life in the modern world. Celestia and Luna accept their decision, but hope they return to Canterlot on occasion to spread their experience to today's ponies so the Magic of Friendship can become even stronger thanks to them.

Twilight really showed some character development here. As far as she was concerned, she wanted to meet Star Swirl after so long, but because she undid his spell and released the Pillars and the corrupted Stygian from limbo, Star Swirl was deeply upset with her actions, since she never considered the consequences for if she even tried to undo the spell in the first place. Hoping to make it up to him, she tried to improve on his banishment spell so the Pillars could stay in present day Equestria, even if it meant the loss of the Elements of Harmony in the process. Though Star Swirl was still upset with her, the Mane Six rally to her defense and convince him to look the spell over after all, convincing him to get her support to finish it before confronting Stygian. In the process, Twilight begins to lose faith in friendship solving the problem as she begins to believe there's no way to help Stygian and the Elements have to be sacrificed to stop him, but when Starlight tells her that had she been in Stygian's hooves at the time, she probably would have met the same fate, Twilight begins to reconsider that this is a friendship problem after all between Stygian and the Pillars.

When it comes time to send Stygian back to limbo, Twilight prepares to follow Star Swirl's orders, when she hesitates upon seeing Stygian's true self trying to separate from his dark side. Confronting him within the Pony of Shadows, Twilight gets the full story of how Stygian only wanted to become the Pillars' equal, ally, and friend, never to take their power for his own gain. Realizing their error in judgement in not taking into account listening to Stygian's side of the story, the Pillars regret sending him down his dark path to becoming the Pony of Shadows, and together with the Mane Six, Starlight, and Sunburst, they are able to pull Stygian free of his dark side and leave it to be sucked back into limbo for eternity. As a result, Star Swirl apologizes to Twilight for his lack of faith in the Magic of Friendship, and gains a newfound respect for her for having proven to him and the Pillars just how powerful the Magic of Friendship truly is, even to legends such as themselves.

Amazing finale, and on a scale of 1 to 10, I give this a full 10/10.

[Midnight Blaze 98 1,138]

I loved this finale! It was quite different to others, and I was so happy to see Starswirl! (I thought he was dead and we’d only ever see him in illustrations.)

I don’t really like Starswirl’s design though- I mean, it’s ok, just not what I imagined!

I was very worried that Starlight and Stygian were going to become the 7th element/ pillar of forgiveness or something at the end, but thankfully that didn’t happen!

 

[Celli 4,338]

Fantastic episode. Starswirl was a bit of an asshole, but if you think about it, it makes total sense. Magical Mystery Cure made it out that he was terrible at making friends, and it shows here, thinking the only way to defeat the pony of shadows is to banish it, not make amends with Stygeon. Definitely an A+.

[Jade Fire 7,059]

24 minutes ago, Midnight Blaze 98 said:

I was very worried that Starlight and Stygian were going to become the 7th element/ pillar of forgiveness or something at the end, but thankfully that didn’t happen!

im kinda hoping starlight becomes element or something at this point my self, she's done as much to help equestria at this point as the other 6 without an element. i mean without an element she was the one to actually fix the Stygian issue. she's earned it by now i think xD

Edited October 28, 2017 by Jade Fire

[Midnight Blaze 98 1,138]

15 minutes ago, Jade Fire said:

m kinda hoping starlight becomes element or something at this point my self, she's done as much to help equestria at this point as the other 6 without an element. i mean without an element she was the one to actually fix the Stygian issue. she's earned it by now i think xD

Yeah, if anypony’s earned it Starlight has, (hey, and Spike) and don’t get me wrong, I really like her, but I just don’t think I want her added to the Mane 6- they’ve been together since the first episode and it just wouldn’t feel right to suddenly get a new member. 

I think she should have some kind of role though; I’m wondering if she’s going to move out of Twilight Castle at any point and go and do something somewhere? I got nothing! 

[Jade Fire 7,059]

10 minutes ago, Midnight Blaze 98 said:

Yeah, if anypony’s earned it Starlight has, (hey, and Spike) and don’t get me wrong, I really like her, but I just don’t think I want her added to the Mane 6- they’ve been together since the first episode and it just wouldn’t feel right to suddenly get a new member. 

I think she should have some kind of role though; I’m wondering if she’s going to move out of Twilight Castle at any point and go and do something somewhere? I got nothing! 

it wouldent be sudden, they've been slowly working her into the mane group since season 5 if you go back and watch. as to your 2nd part 

Spoiler

if you watch the season 8 animatic closely. it makes it clear she's teaching the new school of friendship along side the other 6

 

[Megas 27,624]

Yeah, didn't expect this one to be as good as it was. Lots of lore, all the characters in top form. I guess the only flaw I can really find is that Starswirl is a huge dick, but that goes back to MMC where it's stated that he wasn't that good at friendship. Though it has less to do with that and more with Twilight just taking it(though we got the scene of the remane 5 defending her which I thought was great)

[Sly 236]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNPP8qGU8AUbh6W?format=jpg

If you remember any episode with such a long list of VAs involved (also it's even longer since this is the part 2 list and doesn't include the ones appeared only in the first half)...... I think putting both the parts together, this was the MLP episode with the largest cast of voice actors of the entire series.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Sly

[Thrond 3,263]

So what's this Equestria Girls thing everyone's talking about? I totally missed it. 

[Music Chart Fan 819]

Overall, I thought these episodes were okay - kind of underwhelming when compared to the hype. On the plus side, occasional "epic" episodes like these can be entertaining in their action and in giving a wider scope to the world. I enjoyed Twilight's fangirl reactions to Star Swirl, especially her gleefulness at seeing him in action and at his praise directed her way. Rainbow and Spike also made for a good team against Garble; I liked seeing Rainbow demonstrate her caring for Spike, and seeing her outsmart Garble.

However, I can't help feeling that all the other group members were dumbed down and/or made into jerks so that Starlight would be the sole voice of reason and restraint, and in the process, be proven right on the two major plot points of these episodes. Also, there's a bit of weirdness and/or contrivance to how the special artifacts were used and how they got where they are in the present time, as well as the backstory of how Stygian was turned to the dark side.

As for the Pillars, most of them seem to do little else than give a few lines of exposition and tag along for the plan, without much other independent comment or judgment. Most of them get essentially no additional characterization (other than hearing their voices) beyond what was seen in their initial legends, which for some of them didn't amount to much in the first place. So I don't dislike the Pillar characters, but I'm just not sure what roles they'll play in the future, or how interesting and entertaining they'll end up being.

As you can see, there's a lot to talk about here, so I'll try to divide my thoughts into sections.

----

First, one big issue I have is that, for part 1 of the finale, Starlight is inexplicably the one and only member of the group who has any concerns about using a spell to release the Pillars from limbo. A big reason for this seems to be that everyone is in a great big hurry to bring the Pillars back, even as I don't see any particularly compelling reason why that needs to be done right now without slowing down and considering the consequences. It also seems incongruous with Starlight's characterization for her to be the only one suggesting caution and restraint.

To start, what's the urgency of figuring out the mystery of what happened to Star Swirl, other than Twilight's being impatient and excited? Is that really all that driving the Mane Seven and Sunburst (and maybe Starlight) to study for three days straight? Rarity even suggests that taking a break for a day or two won't make a difference, to which the only reply is Twilight saying that she doesn't even want to wait two seconds.

And after the group discovers what happened at Ponehenge, I don't see why everyone except Starlight is so determined to pull Star Swirl and the other Pillars out of limbo as soon as possible, apparently without fully thinking through the consequences or making any backup plans or anything. What are the arguments that are made? I'll try to go through them here.

(1) First, Twilight says that Starlight used one of Star Swirl's spells to open portals through time, and if Star Swirl were there, he could have stopped it. But could he have, really? Is it necessarily the case that, because Star Swirl wrote the spell, he could stop the spell from being used by Starlight (or somebody else)? Or would Starlight still ultimately need to be talked down from using the spell, in which case Star Swirl wouldn't be of much (if any) help?

(2) Twilight also declares that "the chance to have [Star Swirl] back in Equestria is worth the risk" and that "Equestria would be safer with him in it". But what would Equestria be safer from? What exactly makes it "worth the risk" to try to bring the Pillars back? Equestria has seemed to manage for 1000 years without him or the Pillars around, so what's the urgency? Furthermore, once they're brought back, they'll presumably resume the aging process and die sooner or later. So, even if it's taken for granted that the Pillars would make Equestria safer, wouldn't it be fair to ask whether they're actually needed right now?

(3) Sunburst describes the plan as "saving the most legendary ponies of all time from a thousands-year-old prison", but is that really an accurate way to think about it? If time doesn't pass in limbo, then I don't see how the Pillars could be suffering or feel trapped or anything like that. Whenever they exit limbo, wouldn't they not have any awareness or recollection of being in limbo, since it would just feel as though no time had passed since they first entered limbo?

(4) Sunburst tells Starlight that the Pillars "did the best they could back then, but magic has come a long way. Mostly because of the work they did". And Twilight replies "Exactly" to Starlight's saying that Twilight got her wings from finishing one of Star Swirl's spells. So do Twilight's and Sunburst's replies here essentially boil down to "Trust us, we know what we're doing with this magic stuff"? If so, could they explain how they're "correcting" what the Pillars did, what the effects will be of this new magic they're going to do, and what could go wrong and how that would be mitigated? Of course, as revealed soon after freeing the Pillars from limbo, Twilight and Sunburst didn't really know what they were doing or have any contingency plans.

(5) And again, there's an ever-present motivating factor of Twilight's desire to meet her idol Star Swirl. But that doesn't necessitate getting him out of limbo right now, without carefully planning it out. Twilight ought to be able to be patient and think this through. Plus, that wouldn't seem to an urgent motivating factor in itself for any of the rest of the group, nor would I really expect that to prevent any of them from questioning what could happen by hastily going through with this spell.

And besides these kind of "half-baked" arguments, it seems rather contrived and hamfisted for Starlight to be the one and only pony with any doubts about any of this. Starlight tells Twilight that the Pillars might have known what they were doing, and that all of them "shouldn't mess with it". And that would seem prudent. If the Pillars had to take the Pony of Shadows to limbo, and were trapped in limbo with him, then it's likely that opening a portal to limbo to get them back out would also enable the Pony of Shadows to get back out. However, all this seems more than a little incongruous coming from the pony who has repeatedly used magic to "mess with" plenty of things, particularly other ponies, without considering the consequences, including in the current season. It was even suggested in "A Royal Problem" that Starlight was called by the Map specifically because no one else would do what she did - i.e., magically altering others' bodies without consent and without regard to consequences - and she was praised for it. But all of a sudden Starlight is now the voice of reason, calling for caution and restraint?

So it just looks to me like there are a lot of complicating factors here that Twilight and friends could and should consider. But they don't, seemingly just so that the plot can be driven forward by releasing the big bad villain, and so that Starlight can inevitably be proven right.

----

Next, it isn't really clear to me what significance the artifacts of the Pillars have, or how they came to be where they are in the current time.

The holographic depiction of the Pillars trapping the Pony of Shadows (and themselves) in limbo shows them using their special artifacts to do so, with those objects then falling to the ground after they go to limbo. Is that supposed to be like a recording of the actual event? In other words, is that what actually happened? It would seem so. But then, that implies that the Pillars carried their special artifacts with them, and that their objects would have all been at Ponehenge, since they fell to the ground in the holographic depiction. So then how did their special artifacts get scattered across Equestria? The overgrowth and disrepair of Ponehenge would seem to indicate, as Rainbow said, that no one's seen any of this for a long time. Did some ponies at some point in the (distant) past stumble across Ponehenge and these seemingly ordinary objects and take them to sell or give away or something?

Furthermore, the locations of all of these special artifacts don't necessarily lend themselves to any clear explanation of how they got where they are. Star Swirl's diary is eventually found in a random blind barrel at an antique shop, and Flash Magnus's shield was apparently found by Garble "out in the desert", so these objects did not seem to be stored in any special way, such that the significance of them (or their owners) was realized. On the other hand, Mistmane's flower was being "guarded" by the gardener in what appears to be the original gardens from the legend; Mage Meadowbrook's mask was hanging on the wall at her tree house; and Rockhoof's shovel appeared to be in a tomb or shrine of some kind. So these artifacts either never left their original locations, or somehow made their way back there, such that ponies might have been aware of the significance of the objects and/or their owners.

The location of Somnambula's blindfold is particularly problematic. How did the blindfold come to be stuck in the "drain" of the pit of green slime? That would almost suggest that the blindfold was simply discarded right after it was removed when Somnambula rescued Prince Hisan. But that would contradict the holographic depiction of the blindfold being used by Somnambula at Ponehenge. Furthermore, if the blindfold were really discarded into the pit as though it was useless and it didn't matter what happened to it, then why is it one of the six special objects to bring the Pillars back from limbo? I looked back at the depiction of Somnambula's legend in the episode "Daring Done?", but it's not clear what happened to the blindfold. Prince Hisan drops it after removing it, but we don't see whether it fell into the pit or was picked up afterward.

So what can be concluded from all of this? Was the holographic depiction of the Pillars using these special objects to seal the Pony of Shadows (and themselves) in limbo accurate? If so, then did the special objects simply fall down and stay at Ponehenge? Were they found by other ponies at some point and taken or sold or given away? How was it, then, that some of the special objects seemed to be recognized as significant and made their way back to locations associated with their original owners, while others seemingly weren't, and Somnambula's blindfold appears possibly not to have been taken to Ponehenge or considered significant at all? It's all rather muddled, and I don't know if a single unifying explanation can be made.

----

Now here are some observations I had from the Mane Seven going around to find the special artifacts.

Applejack tells the archaeologist and the students that she can "guarantee" that Rockhoof was a real pony. But even if Applejack is convinced that Rockhoof was real, how does she plan to prove that to the other ponies there? And why bother saying that in the first place? It kind of just seems like a set-up for Applejack to prove that stuck-up archaeologist wrong and put her in her place.

The gardens that Rarity visited to retrieve Mistmane's flower didn't look as though they could be fixed with a few seconds of pruning; besides the sheer amount of overgrowth and disrepair, a good number of the plants were brown. How did the garden come to be in such a state, anyway? If the gardener apparently isn't maintaining the gardens, what is she doing? The gardener says that ponies used to come from far and wide to see the gardens, but now the flower's the only worthwhile thing left. However, what was the cause and effect? Did the gardens fall into disrepair, causing ponies to stop coming to see them? Or did ponies stop coming to see the gardens for other reasons, and with no one visiting, there was no motivation to maintain the gardens? Either way, the problem isn't going to be fixed just with Rarity's one-time pruning job.

Garble says that he found Flash Magnus's shield out in the desert, and "finders keepers", to which Rainbow replies "it isn't yours". So what's the argument here, that the shield actually belongs to Flash Magnus? Why would that mean that Rainbow has a better claim to ownership of it than Garble? I would think that abandoned property can be homesteaded, especially when the original owner has disappeared and no one else has apparently claimed title to the property, and Garble makes it sound as though the shield was abandoned when he found it.

So Garble's idea of "trash talking" Spike right before the race is to give him a thumbs down and blow a raspberry? Wow, how intimidating.

Spike's hugging Rainbow after she swoops in and throws Garble's rock back at him is pretty heartwarming.

Rainbow's burn that Garble "must be slow if all Spike had to do to win was fall down" is actually a pretty good point, and it's cool how Rainbow outsmarted Garble. But after seeing Rainbow and Spike flying off with the shield, why wouldn't Garble give chase? It's not as though Rainbow was flying away super quickly at that time, although she could surely outfly Garble if she needed to.

Pinkie just hops out of the deep diving suit and stands on the glowing green slime, and allows the slime-soaked blindfold to smack her in the face as she holds it in her mouth. Shouldn't the slime be acidic or dangerous or something? Otherwise, why is it a glowing fluorescent green?

----

Next there's the other major plot point about which Starlight is inevitably proven right - namely, the idea that the Pony of Shadows just needed to be talked to and befriended, rather than banished. Why is Starlight alone so concerned about it not being right to banish the Pony of Shadows to limbo, even as she admits that she knows essentially nothing about him?

Part of the problem is that once again, there seems to be an inevitable sense of urgency which I'm not sure is justified based on the circumstances. Star Swirl and the other Pillars seem just to want to recast the same spell they used before to trap both themselves and the Pony of Shadows in limbo as soon as possible. The other Pillars are resigned to going back to limbo, and of course, Star Swirl initially doesn't even want to consider Twilight's alternate spell, saying that "this is hardly the time to take risks on half-baked spells". And even after Star Swirl assents to using Twilight's spell, neither Twilight nor Star Swirl want to hear Starlight's reasons for why they should try to talk it out with the Pony of Shadows, saying that "the stakes are too high". But what's driving the assessment that the stakes are too high? Why can't all of them take a little time to consider alternate means of defeating or containing (or talking down) the Pony of Shadows? It's not as though he's wreaking havoc across the land (as, say, Tirek was); he disappeared somewhere for an indefinite length of time. Flash Magnus even says that the Pony of Shadows "will have a hard time regaining power" because of the lack of dark corners in Equestria these days.

But also, I tried to think about whether it makes sense for only Starlight to be suggesting the "talk it out/make friends" approach to the Pony of Shadows. However, it seems that the show hasn't been clear about taking a single "correct" approach to handling big bad villains. On the one hand, it's not as though anyone was really searching for the tragic backstory or innocent initial motivations of Discord (the two times he was turned back into stone), Chrysalis (the first time around), Sombra, or Tirek. Nor was anyone particularly concerned in those cases about whether those four villains were "redeemable". So there's precedent for big bad villains to be simply driven out or contained, full stop.

On the other hand, Discord was freed again and "reformed" at the behest of Princess Celestia. Twilight attempts to tell Starlight about the power of friendship (and of everyone having unique talents, passions and personalities) at the end of "The Cutie Map", and when Starlight rejected the lesson and ran away, the Mane Six didn't pursue her. Starlight was talked down and (supposedly) set on a path to reformation in "The Cutie Remark". And Starlight attempted to persuade Chrysalis to change after she was defeated and the other changelings transformed, and again, when Chrysalis rejected the lesson, she was allowed to get away. So, in other cases, dialogue and reformation were attempted, rather than just defeating and containing the villain.

With all this in mind, are there any clear guidelines as to which approach should be taken for any particular big bad villain? I'm not sure that there are. Maybe it could be argued that villains actively causing mass harm and destruction, such as Discord (the first two times) or Chrysalis (the first time) or Tirek, had to be stopped as soon as possible, although that doesn't apply for the Pony of Shadows in this episode. Did some of these villains display some vague potential to be reformed and/or to be useful fighting for the "good side", like Starlight and (eventually) Discord, and so were talked to and befriended, rather than defeated and contained? But that doesn't feel like a very satisfactory explanation, either. I'm not sure that there's a way to put all these pieces together.

So I don't know that Starlight is justified in assuming, a priori, that the Pony of Shadows can and should be talked to and befriended. It seems to me like the situation and the Pony of Shadows himself would need to be evaluated to see if that's possible and feasible. The Mane Six have arguably been able to do that before. Fluttershy saw a way to break through to Discord and befriended him, and Twilight and friends decided to befriend Starlight. So then could we expect any of the other group members at least to entertain such a possibility here? Do Twilight, the rest of the Mane Seven, and the Pillars all just have excessive admiration of and deference to Star Swirl, such that none of them can exert any independent judgment of the whole situation? In other words, is Starlight supposed to be the one and only member of the group free of the Star Swirl cult of personality? It feels contrived and unsatisfying that nobody else is willing or able to consider what the appropriate means of stopping the Pony of Shadows should be, just so that Starlight can be inevitably proven right once again.

----

In the last big section here, I'll talk about the backstory of what happened between Stygian and the Pillars, and how it seems like both parties could have handled the situation better.

The Pillars say that Stygian stole the artifacts from them to use in a spell to take their powers for himself, but then, how can they be sure of that if they never talked to Stygian about it? Was taking the Pillars' powers for himself the only possible explanation for Stygian's taking the artifacts? If the Pillars were friends with Stygian, why would they immediately assume the worst from him without ever trying to find out what he was doing? Stygian would be at fault for taking (or borrowing) the Pillars' artifacts without permission, but couldn't they at least ask why he took them and what he was doing with them? The flashback implies that Stygian was cast out as soon as he was discovered with the artifacts, without any discussion. Were the Pillars and Stygian already falling out for other reasons before the artifact incident? So yeah, the Pillars do share some of the blame here.

But then the story as Stygian tells it is that he essentially borrowed the artifacts to make copies of them, so that he apparently "could be a Pillar, too, and stand by their side in battle". But how would that work? Would the copied artifacts boost his own strength or magic by virtue of having copied the inherent magic contained in the artifacts? Or would the copied artifacts just be mere objects? Also, why couldn't Stygian ask the Pillars about borrowing the artifacts for this plan, rather than trying to use the artifacts behind their backs? And even if the Pillars overreacted to seeing Stygian with the artifacts, isn't it at least understandable that they would be upset and suspicious at his taking their artifacts without their permission? Even if the Pillars apparently weren't interested in apologies or explanations at the moment, couldn't Stygian have allowed some time for things to cool down, and then tried to apologize and explain himself? Somnambula says that the Pillars thought he would return to seek forgiveness, but apparently he never did. So it seems that Stygian could have handled the situation better, too.

----

One more larger point I'll discuss is the language that the Pillars speak upon emerging from limbo. We've seen that ponies from long ago (including Star Swirl) at least wrote in Old Ponish, and we've heard Old Ponish spoken, implying that there was a verbal form of it. So then might we expect the Pillars to emerge from limbo speaking Old Ponish, or even other languages? The Pillars were originally from all around Equestria, so did all of them necessarily speak the same language back then? It wouldn't be unreasonable to think that different regions of Equestria might have used different languages, particularly if there wasn't widespread travel and communication 1000 years ago. But in the episode, all of the Pillars seem to speak the modern language, such that everyone else can understand them. I guess it's just easier to write the episodes that way. For example, even though Nightmare Moon was banished to the moon for 1000 years, she apparently doesn't speak Old Ponish after returning; Princess Luna speaks in a bit older, more proper style, at least for a while, but that's about it.

Now, finally, are the rest of my miscellaneous observations:

Twilight asks whether Celestia and Luna can "verify that this journal really belonged to Star Swirl the Bearded", and Luna replies "Indeed". So how can the two of them verify it? Do they recognize Star Swirl's hornwriting and writing style well enough after 1000 years to be able to tell with confidence? Are there other indicators in the diary that would definitely confirm that it was written by Star Swirl?

I counted about 25 or so visible burned candle stumps in the garbage during the studying scene, and Applejack says that they've been working for 3 days straight. So, assuming that Twilight was burning one candle at a time for that whole period, that would mean that each of those candles burned for about 3 hours or so - less time if there are more candle stumps that aren't visible. I suppose that's plausible for the size of the candles being burned.

When seeing the Mane Seven and Sunburst (and maybe Starlight) intensely studying, I couldn't help recalling that, in "A Health Of Information", only Twilight and Fluttershy were researching where to find the Mystical Mask, and Twilight took a break to sleep properly while doing so. I could see an argument that the scene of the Mane Seven & Co. intensely studying is what should have been happening in that episode, since finding a way to stop Zecora from turning into a tree would be serious business.

Twilight says to Sunburst "I can't believe I'm gonna meet Star Swirl the Bearded! You know, outside of my dreams", while giving a devious smirk. Uh, is Sunburst really interested in what Twilight dreams about? That might be too much information there.

Why did the Pillars come out of limbo with giant stones over their heads, such that the Pillars had to be pushed out of the way before they were crushed? Where did those come from? We don't see giant stones transported into limbo with the Pillars and the Pony of Shadows, and Ponehenge has the same giant stones in the current time as it apparently did 1000 years ago, judging from the illustration in Star Swirl's diary.

Somnambula says that the Elements of Harmony (laughter, honesty, generosity, loyalty, kindness, and magic) are reflections of the Pillars' elements (hope, strength, beauty, bravery, healing, and sorcery, respectively). But are they, really? I'm not sure I see the connections between some of the elements exhibited by the Pillars and their analogs in the Elements of Harmony. How is generosity necessarily a reflection of beauty, loyalty a reflection of bravery, etc.?

I don't think that Starlight's gloating about how a conversation can really save Equestria is really accurate. After all, the darkness itself that was consuming and using Stygian still had to be banished to limbo with the spell and the Pillars and Elements of Harmony.

Finally, I can imagine how it could be pretty emotional and profound for Celestia and Luna to talk to Star Swirl again after 1000 years. How many generations of ponies, and friends in particular, have they had to see grow old and pass away, just to have to move on and make new friends again? And yet now their mentor's back, whom they still have fond memories of even after all of the centuries they've been through.

[Megas 27,624]

36 minutes ago, AlexanderThrond said:

So what's this Equestria Girls thing everyone's talking about? I totally missed it. 

The Sirens appear, yes those Sirens(script specifically mentions them)

Edited October 29, 2017 by Kiryu-Chan

[ggg-2 3,553]

A friend of mine ended up quitting the finale due to Twilight's decision to bring Starswirl back and accidentally bringing back the Pony of Shadows. Should I try to convince him otherwise? I do agree it was a dumb decision on Twilight's part, at least at first.

[Buck Testa 5,505]

They came dangerously close to destroying my Tree of harmony head canon, but that doesn't affect my rating of this finale. Definitely one of the best this show's put out so far, and it raises this season up a few notches in my book. The new writers have had me worried about the show's quality, but this was a strong sendoff for the season. I'll be interested to see what they do from here now that we have all these new characters to work with. 

Also Equestria Girls is now canon, so that's a thing. 

[DonMaguz 1,023]

1 hour ago, Kiryu-Chan said:

The Sirens appear, yes those Sirens(script specifically mentions them)

I liked how they managed to show that scene as a clear nod and shared lore for the Dazzlings, but at the same time it remains transparent to "FiM only" viewers as an example of the dangers that were faced by the pillars in their time.

[Fluttershutter 2,455]

Poni

Rules

lol!

[Thrond 3,263]

1 hour ago, Kiryu-Chan said:

The Sirens appear, yes those Sirens(script specifically mentions them)

There's still some plausible deniability for much of what happens in Equestria Girls, but as a (somewhat lapsed) fan of that series, I'm glad to have at least a little confirmation of its legitimacy. 

[Ganondorf8 11,303]

The Dazzlings are now canon in the show thanks to this finale though I wished they had been given some dialogue rather than what ended up happening. Granted, I do understand why they went with this approach given that they weren't meant to play a significant role other than to serve as an explanation--Legends of Magic on the other hand will be doing something but I'll let you figure it out by reading it--but it would have been nice had it happened. In any case, I'm glad they appear because it gives me hope that Sunset may one day make an appearance in the show.

I didn't like how Starswirl came off as being a jerk but then he was supposed to have been someone who didn't understand friendship so at least he remained consistent though one has to wonder how he befriended the likes of Scorpan. But, his voice made up for some of his actions not to mention his actual appearance after being referenced for the past seven years as having been a legend.