If there has to be a Queen to be a Princess why is there no Queen

[Unity 332]

3 minutes ago, Fhaolan said:

In real life, Princess is simply the female form of Prince. The term 'Prince' predates the terms King and Queen. To put it simply, there were Princes *long* before there were Kings and Queens, and there are current nations who have Princes, without Kings or Queens.

Now the short version is out of the way...  The longer version is that Prince/Princess comes from Latin: Princeps, meaning basically 'the one who takes the first place/position'. After the Roman Empire fell, it was still used as a generic title across Europe to mean the sovereign of a particular area regardless of local language and terminology. Basically Latin was still used as the 'base language' everyone used to translate between. Slowly it morphed to be applied to all members of the nobility as the various local ranks and terms became more codified, while still popping up here and there as a specific, but inconsistent, title. By the end of the Medieval Period, there were only a few localities where Prince still held it's older meaning, and those were tiny countries like Liechtenstein and the like. Most of those have stuck with 'Prince' ever since. Even now, there are odd occasions when Kings, Rajas and whatevers, fall back to that older meaning and call each other 'Prince' due to weird issues of preeminence that they don't want to waste time working out.

However, the simplest way to explain it is that there isn't a central body of certification for rulers. There's nobody that can tell a true sovereign what title to use. If they want to call themselves 'Princess', 'Queen', or 'Mighty Jagrafess of the Holy Hadrojassic Maxarodenfoe' that's completely up to them.

So pretty much.

The Princesses are the rulers of Equestria. and they are only Princesses because that is one of many titles for a leader.

And they choose Princess.

correct?

[Fhaolan 4,484]

8 hours ago, Unity said:

So pretty much.

The Princesses are the rulers of Equestria. and they are only Princesses because that is one of many titles for a leader.

And they choose Princess.

correct?

Yup. That's what it boils down to.

Also remember they made this choice over a thousand years ago when they were a lot younger, and by now it has become so ingrained into the culture that anyone who is an Alicorn like them is automatically considered a Princess, and possibly visa-versa. (In one of the earlier episodes there's a storybook about a Love Poison, and the 'princess' in the book was drawn as an Alicorn. She may have been one, but it's also very possible that she was a unicorn princess and the artist who drew it just assumed that Princess = Alicorn when they were handed the task of illustrating that particular fairy tale.)

[ggg-2 3,553]

12 hours ago, Will Guide said:

I'm simply pointing out that this question already has a topic made about it before. 

And as for Disney and Pixar, they already have a good Queen named Elsa and Elinor, respectively. So, the poor excuse for and argument that "ALL Queens are evil" is invalid. That's all I'm going to say.

While that's true, remember that that mandate was set in place before FIM premiered in 2010. Brave and Frozen didn't exist until 2012 and 2013 respectively. Citing these movies that came out after FIM doesn't work.

[Unity 332]

3 hours ago, Fhaolan said:

Yup. That's what it boils down to.

Also remember they made this choice over a thousand years ago when they were a lot younger, and by now it has become so ingrained into the culture that anyone who is an Alicorn like them is automatically considered a Princess, and possibly visa-versa. (In one of the earlier episodes there's a storybook about a Love Poison, and the 'princess' in the book was drawn as an Alicorn. She may have been one, but it's also very possible that she was a unicorn princess and the artist who drew it just assumed that Princess = Alicorn when they were handed the task of illustrating that particular fairy tale.)

What other titles would be apropriate for them to use?

[Megas 27,751]

Disney and marketing happened

[Fhaolan 4,484]

6 hours ago, Unity said:

What other titles would be apropriate for them to use?

The fun thing about nobility at that level is that they could easily be accumulating titles for subsections of their domain.

Technically Celestia and Luna *could* call themselves Kings in order to match the 'Kingdom of Equestria'. There are several times in history when there were female Kings, so while that's a bit of a mental hiccup for us it's not unheard of. We're now a lot less flexible around noble terminology than it used to be. Using England as a model, Queen is on the table, of course.

Cadence could easily call herself 'Empress' given she's running the Crystal Empire. For that matter, since the Crystal Empire appears to be a vassal state under Equestria now, both Celestia and Luna could call themselves Empresses as well.

We don't quite know what the actual relationship between Equestria and Mustangia, Maretania and Maretonia are. We've heard the names, but no idea if they are part of Equestria or not. If they're like districts of Equestria, that would likely grant Celestia and Luna titles like Countess, Duchess, etc. of those areas, depending on how they work.

Celestia and Luna are also likely the holders for the old supreme titles used by the pre-Equestria tribes, the ones that Princess Platinum, Chancellor Puddinghead,  and Commander Hurricane had (or whoever *they* reported to, if they did.)

The Equestrian Games threw a wrench into things as there was a gryphon team (yes, I spell it gryphon, it's the spelling I grew up with.) If they were from the Gryphon Kingdom proper then is the Gryphon Kingdom another vassal state? Or is there a Gryphon community in Equestria established enough to put forward a one-species team like that?

[Singe 2,111]

My best guess is this is Celestia's doing to promote a union of equality among the royal echelon of Equestria so that there can be many Prince and Princesses to fill roles while not having a higher rank that would cause them to squabble for power.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Singe

[EpicEnergy 23,223]

There is no queen in Equestria most likely because of their government system. I believe Equestria is an oligarchy, which means there is a group that rules instead of a single individual. That group is the alicorn princesses.

The reason why there are queens/ leaders in other lands is because I see a different governmental system that they use. Yack-Yakistan, the dragon-land, the Changeling Kingdom, and the land of the Hippogriffs seem to all have autocracy governments, meaning that they have one ruler who is in absolute authority.

Edited August 11, 2018 by EpicEnergy
grammar correction

[Wonderbolt Slipstream 263]

Because Disney portrayed queens as bad and princesses as good and Hasbro just ran with it.

[FizzyGreen 909]

I guess in cartoons queen means dictator. 

 

Edited August 12, 2018 by FizzyGreen

[ManaMinori 4,145]

On 8/6/2018 at 3:13 PM, TBD said:

Based on what  Lauren said in "my little pony: official guidebook", disney portrayed the Queens  as "evil,"  while the princess were portrayed as the good guys.  So that's why she doesn't want to add a "queen" title for Celestra, and have her keep the princess title. Generally in my own opinion that's bullcrap at this point since well...Queen elsa. 

Sorry, but that doesn't hold water. Disney is disney. Hasbro is Hasbro. LF took much inspiration from g1MLP, which DID have good queens. Queen Rosedust of the Flutterpnies, and 4 or 5 Princess ponies who wanted to be Queens. 

 

There is no excuse.

5 hours ago, Wonderbolt Slipstream said:

Because Disney portrayed queens as bad and princesses as good and Hasbro just ran with it.

Except they didn't in g1. Or g3.

[TBD 17,256]

4 hours ago, Nightmare Muffin said:

Sorry, but that doesn't hold water. Disney is disney. Hasbro is Hasbro. LF took much inspiration from g1MLP, which DID have good queens. Queen Rosedust of the Flutterpnies, and 4 or 5 Princess ponies who wanted to be Queens. 

 

Just saying whatever's on the book.

Edited August 12, 2018 by TBD

[Will Guide 21,362]

@TBD

Disney had good queens in the past, even before Frozen. Look at Sleeping Beauty's mother who ran to protect her child when Maleficent cursed her. Or Rapunzel's mother who nearly died had it not been for an elixir made from a magic golden flower.

[SBaby 660]

They indirectly explain this in the Season 3 finale.  Pretty much 'Princess' is more of a formal title in Equestria (like being knighted), and not necessarily inferring royal birth or anything.  And contrary to popular belief, it has nothing to do with being an Alicorn.

Edited August 16, 2018 by SBaby

[Unity 332]

53 minutes ago, SBaby said:

They indirectly explain this in the Season 3 finale.  Pretty much 'Princess' is more of a formal title in Equestria (like being knighted), and not necessarily inferring royal birth or anything.  And contrary to popular belief, it has nothing to do with being an Alicorn.

I agree but i am not sure about the whole not being an Alicorn thing.

could i get a source or something else that explains otherwise?

[Ganondox 899]

My headcanon is that they (Luna and Celestia) were literal princesses in the old kingdom, but after it fell Discord and they took power neither claimed the title of queen as they ruled together. Overtime the meaning of princess changed in reflection of their leaders.

[Will Guide 21,362]

9 hours ago, Unity said:

I agree but i am not sure about the whole not being an Alicorn thing.

could i get a source or something else that explains otherwise?

In the Heartwarming Play from Season 2, we learn that in the founding of Equestria over 1000 years ago there was a Princess Platinum of the unicorns (played by Rarity) who was clearly not an Alicorn.

This is proof that NOT ALL Princesses are Alicorn. Not to mention they have hippogriff/seaponies who can also be Princesses.

[Unity 332]

3 hours ago, Will Guide said:

In the Heartwarming Play from Season 2, we learn that in the founding of Equestria over 1000 years ago there was a Princess Platinum of the unicorns (played by Rarity) who was clearly not an Alicorn.

This is proof that NOT ALL Princesses are Alicorn. Not to mention they have hippogriff/seaponies who can also be Princesses.

Well, you aren't wrong, or at least weren't wrong.

but that is the equivalent of saying that we have not evolved politically since the bronze age.

China does not still have am emperor.

While this may have been true at one point that was before they were united together and I really think "princess" just means leader in Equestria.

[SBaby 660]

On ‎8‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 11:20 PM, Unity said:

I agree but i am not sure about the whole not being an Alicorn thing.

could i get a source or something else that explains otherwise?

Actually, there's a source right in the show.  Blueblood is a Prince, but he isn't related to any of the characters by blood and he isn't an Alicorn.

[Unity 332]

30 minutes ago, SBaby said:

Actually, there's a source right in the show.  Blueblood is a Prince, but he isn't related to any of the characters by blood and he isn't an Alicorn.

Well, he is one of cadance's cousin, but this is mainly about princesses, Prince Blueblood has the title of prince, but that doesn't mean that prince and princess are reserved for Alicorns only.

Clearly, they aren't real princesses (not in a traditional fashion), but we can tell that princess is probably just a title for a leader, they could be called queen if they wanted.

 

It would make sense to assume that since princess is used as the title for someone who is always an Alicorn that prince would require being an Alicorn, but it doesn't, and we don't even know if it applies that way for other Princesses

But, We have not seen Prince Blue Bloods parents, so he could be from somewhere completely different and his parents could be the leaders of that place, or at least be royal to some degree there, prince would be his title in the traditional fashion then.

 

[starrymiss 114]

Good question! I don't think there's any logical reason behind it. Just another cliche done by Hasbro to fit the cliches of the target market.

Comes from the dumb cartoon stereotype that queen = evil and princess = pure. Like Disney movies have evil queens (Snow White, Alice in Wonderland) or women that are queen-like that are evil, like Maleficent. 

It's always bugged me that it's "Princess" Celestia and not "Queen" Celestia. Princess just doesn't have as much oomph. Yet Chrysalis, who's evil, is "queen."

Edited September 1, 2018 by starrymiss

[SBaby 660]

On ‎9‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 12:32 PM, Unity said:

Well, he is one of cadance's cousin, but this is mainly about princesses, Prince Blueblood has the title of prince, but that doesn't mean that prince and princess are reserved for Alicorns only.

Clearly, they aren't real princesses (not in a traditional fashion), but we can tell that princess is probably just a title for a leader, they could be called queen if they wanted.

 

It would make sense to assume that since princess is used as the title for someone who is always an Alicorn that prince would require being an Alicorn, but it doesn't, and we don't even know if it applies that way for other Princesses

But, We have not seen Prince Blue Bloods parents, so he could be from somewhere completely different and his parents could be the leaders of that place, or at least be royal to some degree there, prince would be his title in the traditional fashion then.

 

Likely, Cadence wasn't a Princess until she was made one (probably from saving the Crystal Empire in some way). 

Same as Celestia and Luna.  They were not Princesses to begin with.  They only became such after saving Equestria from Discord and the ponies of Equestria made them their Princesses.  Despite the title, they really don't make the laws in each area, as each town seems to be more self-governed.  They only step in when things either get really out of hand, or when there is a special event.  So they're almost more like figureheads, and the title of Princess is likely a formal one.

Same with Blueblood.  Whether or not he's related to Cadence, the fact is he has a royal title even though he isn't an Alicorn.  And given that Celestia and Luna were Alicorns before they became Princesses, we know for a fact that there are Alicorns that aren't Princesses, and we can safely deduce that not all Princesses are Alicorns.

[sweetolebob18 728]

IMO, it is a translation problem.

King/Queen = absolute ruler no limits to their authority.

Prince/Princess = limited authority (i.e., a constitutional monarchy)

English doesn't have words that mean exactly that. Princess is closest.

[Splashee 28,566]

We have a Queen: Chrysalis!

 

In Equestria, Princesses are good, and Queens are evil. Simple Disney logic!

[ExplosionMare 18,080]

I know the show’s over but here’s a season 9 spoiler tag anyways:

Spoiler

I can’t BELIEVE they called the taller Twilight QUEEN Twilight!! All she did is take Celestia’s place, she didn’t need a higher title! 
 

It was honestly just really confusing. I know Twilight was supposed to be special and all that, but she shouldn’t have been a queen. No one else but the bad guys were queens.