Religion in MLP, Sun worship & Hearth's Warming. Yay or nay?

[ManaMinori 4,145]

This has been something that hasn’t sit well with me for a long time now, and that’s religious references and undertones in MLP. This is mainly seen through the character Rarity, who- on occasion, uses terms such as “For Celestia’s Sake”, which is a phase that switches out “God’s” (sake) and replaces it with “Celestia’s” (sake). Now this is a problem, because it replaces God’s name with that of a fictional character’s. Furthermore, this implies that Rarity, and perhaps other ponies, might view Celestia as some sort of deity (as many of the fandom tends to do).

 

The phrase in and of itself in its original context, could be seen as blasphemy toward God, as Rarity uses it (“for Celestia’s sake.”/ “with Celestia as my witness”) or Rainbow Dash uses it when addressing Derpy (“In the name of Celestia, just sit there and do nothing!”) (God replaced with Celestia, and thus revering her as God) as a sign of urgency, impatience, or annoyance, does not “bless”, “praise”, or “glorify God”, as Psalm 113: 2-3 clearly states, in relation to Exodus 20:7, which outlines that God condemns those who take up the name of him in “a worthless way” (or abuse of his name by disrespecting it; or by saying it in vain).

 

King James Version

“Blessed be the name of the Lord from this time forth and for evermore. From the rising of the sun unto the going down of the same the Lord's name is to be praised.”

 

New World Translation:

“May Jehovah’s name be praised From now on until forever. From the rising of the sun to its setting, let Jehovah’s name be praised.”

 

New American Standard version:

Blessed be the name of the Lord From this time forth and forever. From the rising of e sun to its setting The name of the Lord is to be praised.

 

Byington:

“Be Jehovah’s name blessed from now to eternity! From sunrise land to sunset Jehovah’s name is to be praised”

 

Aside from Rarity and Rainbow, we’ve often seen ponies bow before Celestia, who they clearly seem as God, or a god(dess). Exodis 20:4 states “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth” while Exodus 20: 5 states “Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them”

 

The Hebrew word for “image” (tselem (צלם)) translates to “likeness”, as seen in the scripture of Genesis 1:27 “God made man in his image” (or likeness) "b'tselem elohim".

 

The Summer Sun Celebration in FiM also points back to religious origins, as the Summer Solstice (irl) was a time of the year where the sun was at its highest peak in the sky, and where many ancient cultures marked this date as significant enough to implement the tradition of sun worship. Societies that were agricultural (such as Ponyville, in fiction), depended on the sun for life and sustenance, and thus, the sun became defied.

 

Celestia fits the definition of being a ‘God”, as she is the image- or “likeness” of the sun, has power over the sun itself- thus, a SUN GOD(dess), much like real life lore of sun gods/ goddesses, who have the populace of their kingdom held in reverential awe and worship of them (“bowing down” Exodus 23: 24 “You must not bow down to their gods or be persuaded to serve them, and you must not imitate their practices ”

Exodus 20:5 “You must not bow down to them or worship them, for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God who will not tolerate your affection for any other gods”.

Deuteronomy 4:15 “Therefore, watch yourselves closely- that you may not act corruptly by making for yourselves any carved image having the form of any symbol, the representation of male or female, the representation of any animal on the earth or the representation of any bird that flies in the sky, the representation of anything creeping on the ground or the representation of any fish in the waters under the earth. And when you raise your eyes to the heavens and see the sun and the moon and the stars—all the army of the heavens—do not get seduced and bow down to them and serve them.”)

 

Sun Worship is also evident in the tradition of MLP’s Hearth’s Warming, which is seen as a parallel to Christmas, which is frequently focused on, moreso than any other holiday tradition. Louis Réau, a member of the famed French Institute who occupied the chair of Middle-Age art at the Sorbonne, France’s leading university, wrote “Despite the theologians’ aversion to admitting the pagan origin of Christian ceremonies, most of them recognize however that one must look to the agrarian and funeral rites of the [pagan] Romans to find the origin and explanation of numerous Christian celebrations.” Réau says, Christian leaders “maintained the date of the [pagan] religious feasts.” He points out that the adoption of heathen holidays and the continuing of them under another name “considerably facilitated the rapid Christianization of the pagan world.”

 

The Great Soviet Encyclopedia states ““Christmas .... was borrowed from the pre-Christian worship of gods ‘dying and rising from the dead,’ which was especially prevalent among agricultural peoples who, in a period usually confined to the winter solstice from December 21-25, annually celebrated the ‘birth’ of the God-Savior, who wakens nature to new life.” Originally, this was adopted from pagan practices who venerated the sun. Ancient northern peoples feared that the long darkness of December would conquer the sun. As part of a magical rite, they decorated their homes with holly, ivy, mistletoe, laurels and other evergreens because these seemed to have supernatural ability to survive. Candles and fires were burned in an attempt to revive the dying sun. In parts of Europe the ceremonial burning of a log is still practiced.

 

This largely coincides with the Roman festival of Saturnalia, which involves feasting at one anothers’ houses, roaming the streets calling to one another ‘Io Saturnalia”, which is equivalent to “Merry Christmas”. In the middle of this period of general gaiety,” explains The Story of Christmas, “there was a day set aside for special reverence to the sun whose apparent rebirth on the Winter Solstice had originally provided the excuse for all these widespread pagan jollifications. This day was known as Dies Solis Invicti Nati, the Day of the Birth of the Unconquered Sun, and it fell on what corresponds to 25 December in our calendar.” This celebration was later labeled Christmas so that the Roman population might be attracted to a decadent “Christianity.” As the book Christmas admits: “The Christian Church .... in the 4^th century found it convenient to take over the sacred pagan day of December 25, the winter solstice ... The birthday of the sun became the birthday of the Son of God.”

 

We see many of these things incorporated into the Equestrian festival of Hearth’s Warming. Lights with the evergreens, dancing, the exchanging of gifts, and the burning of candles and fireplaces. the New Americanized Encyclopedia Britannica, 1900, Vol. IX, page 5236, says: “Saturnalia . . . celebrated on the 19th . . . lasted seven days. During the festival schools were closed. . . . Gambling with dice, at other times illegal, was practiced. All classes exchanged gifts, the commonest being tapers and clay dolls. These dolls were especially given to children. Varro thought that these dolls represented original sacrifices of human beings (children to the ‘Infernal God’).” The fact that Equestrian ponies also exchange dolls and leave them on the fireplace- fire being attributed to the sun god- is telling.

 

The celebration can be further traced back to ancient Babylonia where the people worshiped the sun-god Shamash.

 

How do people feel about this?

 

 

Edited November 10, 2018 by Nightmare Muffin

[O-78 28,607]

Nay! No religion exists in Equestria, just happy little ponies! 

[Midnight Solace 5,132]

Whoa, this is crazily deep.

Yeah, Celestia is kinda like a god in Equestia because she is the ruler.

I wonder how Luna thinks about this...

[ManaMinori 4,145]

Just now, Midnight Solace said:

Whoa, this is crazily deep.

Yeah, Celestia is kinda like a god in Equestia because she is the ruler.

I wonder how Luna thinks about this...

a topic without research is nothing.

5 minutes ago, shyabetes3939 said:

Nay! No religion exists in Equestria, just happy little ponies! 

I beg to differ.

 

"Horse Play" (Season 8, episode 7)

Raspberry Beret: A puppy! A duck-billed platypus! Antidisestablishmentarianism! Oh, I give up! What?!

 

Antidisestablishmentarianism:

is a political position that developed in 19th-century Britain in opposition to Liberal proposals for the disestablishment of the Church of England—meaning the removal of the Anglican Church's status as the state church of England, Ireland, and Wales. The establishment was maintained in England, but in Ireland, the Church of Ireland (Anglican) was disestablished in 1871. In Wales, four Church of England dioceses were disestablished in 1920 and became the Church in Wales.

 

church:

a building used for public Christian worship.

[Sunlight Glisten 368]

I think you're reading a bit to much into this. If you are worried kids watching will get confused about celestia being a god have them watch the ever so biblical veggie tails. Nothing says biblical truths like talking tomatoes and rubber ducks. The religious ideals are no more intrusive than the avengers. 

[Dashy 4 Ever 4,835]

Super deep. My head hurts thinking about it.

You may have a point about what you're saying. Really interesting.

[Black Sabbath 2,486]

17 minutes ago, Nightmare Muffin said:

How do people feel about this?

 

I literally could not care less about what or who cartoon horses worship.

[Gestum 2,493]

I fail to see your point. Is that cartoon ponies aren't Christian and therefore bad?

[ManaMinori 4,145]

22 minutes ago, Gestum said:

I fail to see your point. Is that cartoon ponies aren't Christian and therefore bad?

no. Just the fact that it has religion in it.

Edited November 10, 2018 by Nightmare Muffin

[DonMaguz 1,023]

I think that the concept of religion in Equestria would either be considerably different or simply non existent.

What could be worshipped in their world?

• Celestial objects: the sun, the moon, the stars.
• Natural phenomena: weather, rivers, mountains, the sea.
• Superior entities: Discord, Windigoes, Harmony, the Shadow.
• Magic itself.
• Magical objects: the Crystal Heart, Chrysalis's throne, the seaponies' pearl, the idol of Boreas. 
• Civilization leaders and sages: the Alicorn Princesses, the Changeling Monarch, the Dragon Lord, the Pillars of Equestria.

All of these possible targets of worship have something in common, they are provable entities and do not rely on blind faith to experience their effects on FiM's world. There's where religion in Equestria could never be like the one we have in the real world, at least not like humanity's main religions.

[Gestum 2,493]

7 minutes ago, Nightmare Muffin said:

no. Just the fact that it has religion in it, period.

And why is it bad that it has religion in it? And considering that all that religion really is is a couple of expressions and a couple of holidays (that don't really even has any religious connections), can you even call it a religion?

[ManaMinori 4,145]

8 minutes ago, Gestum said:

And why is it bad that it has religion in it? And considering that all that religion really is is a couple of expressions and a couple of holidays (that don't really even has any religious connections), can you even call it a religion?

all I asked was what others thought of the fact

[Gestum 2,493]

3 minutes ago, Nightmare Muffin said:

all I asked was what others thought of the fact

Ah, sorry. I was being stupid and got thrown of by the "The phrase in and of itself in its original context, could be seen as blasphemy toward God, ".

[Denim&Venöm 19,162]

I don't think anyone else has looked that deep. Not the writers, not we the audience, and certainly not the target demographic. Such holiday staples have now transitioned from spiritual practice to cultural tradition. There are a potential many things in our society that stemmed from spiritual and ritual practices, and many of those things are probably in each and every episode.

[Jordan D 149]

1 hour ago, shyabetes3939 said:

Nay! No religion exists in Equestria, just happy little ponies! 

Actually, they've made very brief mentions to possible religious aspects of Equestria in some spin-off materials.

Micro-Series #1, Twilight mentions Notre-Dame, a real-life church, that's apparently also in Equestria (and yes, she said it in the context of the church, not the sports team), and Tails of Equestria briefly mentions that Celestia is seen more of a mythological figure to some. While mythology and religion isn't one of the same, they often go hand-in-hand. In "The Return of Queen Chrysalis - Part IV", Applejack met a evil priest (granted, he was based off Mola Ram from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom). Another possible sign of religion is from Friendship is Magic #24, which had Fluttershy, Discord and the CMC travel to the ancient kingdom of "Anugypt", where Sweetie Belle came across seemingly religious depictions of the Elements of Harmony defeating Nightmare Moon.Lastly, the Legends of Magic storyline introduced a species of shadow monsters that seemed to worship Luna and Celestia as "The Destroyers", beings meant to bring about the destruction of all worlds (seriously).

Not quite the same, but fictional gods and deities have been shown from time to time, such as "Lovecarts Horror", which would imply some sort of religious background.

Otherwise, yeah, Equestria doesn't seem like a religious place. Spiritual seems like a better term, since some degree of nature worship seems to be afoot (with ponies acting as if the Everfree Forest has magical properties, and the citizens of the Forest having a great deal of respect for all nature) but that's just my speculation. Heck, most of this post is just speculation but I think it's interesting to piece this stuff together. I'm doing a project of trying to piece together the language of Equestria and trust me, that's a nightmare in of itself!

Edited November 10, 2018 by Jordan D
Grammar

[They call me Loyalty 1,948]

Ponies are inspired after human beings, and so is with some of their customs.

[SharpWit 2,692]

1 hour ago, DonMaguz said:

I think that the concept of religion in Equestria would either be considerably different or simply non existent.

What could be worshipped in their world?

• Celestial objects: the sun, the moon, the stars.
• Natural phenomena: weather, rivers, mountains, the sea.
• Superior entities: Discord, Windigoes, Harmony, the Shadow.
• Magic itself.
• Magical objects: the Crystal Heart, Chrysalis's throne, the seaponies' pearl, the idol of Boreas. 
• Civilization leaders and sages: the Alicorn Princesses, the Changeling Monarch, the Dragon Lord, the Pillars of Equestria.

All of these possible targets of worship have something in common, they are provable entities and do not rely on blind faith to experience their effects on FiM's world. There's where religion in Equestria could never be like the one we have in the real world, at least not like humanity's main religions.

That really is the big difference here, there's no need for faith so over time things that could be worshipped are done so in more of an idol stance or they become used to it and it's a part of everyday life. Celestia walks among her subjects and for most of her life was the only Alicorn present or likely known to have existed. Then there was Cadence, the return of Princess Luna, and Twilight of course, and finally the surprise birth of Flurry. Celestia may still hold quite a bit of esteem, but through her public interactions and acting as an official head of state she's maintained her importance but lessened her significance.

Originally I think her status has a ruler and goddess were regarded as being one in the same. Life would have operated something reminiscent of Greek mythology. As society grew, advanced, and became evermore complicated, there had to be changes for her role. She could be seen much like the queen of England today. Not wielding a whole lot of power but still technically able to.

I think whether or not there was ever really religion in Equestria really depends on how seriously we take individual lines within the show. We could go back and forth on this all day, however,,,

Antidisestablishmentarianism is a political position that developed in 19th-century Britain in opposition to Liberal proposals for the disestablishment of the Church of England—meaning the removal of the Anglican Church's status as the state church of England, Ireland, and Wales.

The fact that this word was used at all and specifically towards Celestia I personally think holds a lot of weight. It would clearly be something dealt with in the past with how this whole interaction went, but at the very least I think this is enough to say some form of religion has existed.

But then there's this,

And if Celestia is ignorant of such a common phrase then maybe she has failed to realize just exactly how highly her subjects view her which would be astounding if she weren't aware of the nation worshipping her. Not sure how one in that position could be so sheltered.

As for Hearths Warming, it's actually their Founder's Day, which is the equivalent to our Independence day. Why it's like Christmas for them? Perhaps because it's in winter and they like to uphold traditional festivities, as @Nightmare Muffin said in Pagan holidays being adapted into Christian ones. Why it's really like Christmas though is for marketing and so they could make show specials. Hearts Warming allows a world without Christmas to still have Christmas.

[Singe 2,111]

Since ponies can travel to the other world, they could go there from time to time to get ideas for advancement.

[MangoFoalix 25,029]

I think you are thinking too much into this, NMM.

[Passion 3,484]

Hm. Now, the real question that rumbles itself inside of my head is as follows:

 

Is this truly an unequivocal reference of religious undertone aimed to indicate that all sorts of occultism and beliefs are truly grounded in Pony society or maybe... just maybe... call me insane, I know, but just MAYBE... ...it's just a gag?

 

Nevertheless, since you've put some effort into the thread I don't want to derail it Just keep in mind you guys are not discussing religions, but potential religious references within the show. And that's a major difference.

[Singe 2,111]

I see more of a leaning towards Confucianism with the ideological tone of the show and their society. Princesses would fall similar to the Mandate of Heaven concept.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucianism

[Misty Shadow 7,937]

Religion in the world of MLP is technically possible considering its acknowledgement of otherworldly forces being very much real...but I highly doubt that Celestia is meant to be a substitute for God and that there is a religion in the show meant to represent Christianity. It's very much apparent that the Biblical God and Christianity do not exist in the world of MLP and that there are no conspiracies being manufactured by the chocolate companies. Hearth's Warming is obviously meant to be a parallel to Christmas, sure, but the lore of Hearth's Warming in the show also obviously has nothing to do with either the Christian or pagan origins of Christmas. The God/Celestia substitute is clearly only done for a joke, akin to something like SpongeBob's God/Neptune substitute (a show that also doesn't have a religion focused around Neptune) and while the show has used words and references associated with religion, that is very likely only coincidental and even if you really want to push death of author, it still doesn't mean that an established, organized religion exists in the show. Though the possibility of religion existing in the world of MLP is fun to tease, religion is obviously not meant to be part of the show's message, as what it means to teach through its acknowledgement of the magical and supernatural is that the world is full of wonderful things for us to explore and learn from. 

[ManaMinori 4,145]

29 minutes ago, TwilySparky said:

I think you are thinking too much into this, NMM.

or maybe I'm thinking just enough. Who can say?

It all stacks up, whether you think I'm overthinking or not.....

Edited November 10, 2018 by Nightmare Muffin

[Brony Number 42 10,069]

Celestia is not a god, she's not evan that powerful. Equestria gets invaded every year and she can't stop it. The ponies don't worship her like a god. They show fealty to her as royalty, and that is not the same thing.

Hearthswarming is not a religious holiday. It is a tradition.

[Hardway Bet 96]

The ponies, presumably, would never have heard about the Abrahamic god. Is it really blasphemy if a heathen does it?