S09:E24+E25 - The End of the End

[Latecomer 439]

33 minutes ago, BastementSparkle said:

Basically, yeah. Discord meant for him to serve as an example and an easy starting test for the Mane Six, and he served that purpose pretty well. His plan didn't go quite as he expected even at the start, he didn't want the Mane Six to get their Elements or for the tree to get destroyed, but other than that the Sombra part went pretty much how he wanted.

I like to think he didn't really "Resurrect" Sombra because Sombra was never truly dead to begin with. Sombra is sort of like a half-pony/half-shadow kind of creature to me (Basically an Umbrum like in the comics, though I don't really count those as canon.) and very hard to kill unless you basically completely destroy him like the Mane Six did at the end of the Season 9 premiere. His horn wasn't destroyed by the Crystal Heart, so he was able to survive through that, he can't be resurrected after Season 9 though, he's actually genuinely dead now.

That's still part of why they're afraid of it, the forest is out of their control, but it's also just genuinely unnatural to their world. Even without the Plunder vines the thing grows wildly out of control when the tree or somepony isn't keeping it under control, and it's filled with all sorts of dangerous monsters and stuff. Ponies had a lot more reason to be scared of it back in the day, but due to the tree of Harmony being planted inside helping to keep everything under control and Grogar's magic fading, it just kept becoming safer over time, even if it's still more dangerous than most of Equestria itself.

The precise nature doesn't matter (although I hold him to have been a Crystal Unicorn at least originally and Discord to not be able to raise the dead) as much as the stupidity of it and it's consequences. If his crimes are on Discord's head, then I don't think I could forgive him, certainly not easily.

[Brainstorm 4,106]

3 hours ago, Latecomer said:

That remains very questionable - or rather, whether such an ally is not possibly worse than an enemy. Don't forget all the damage Sombra did.

It was only a theory. Discord did say he wanted to test Twilight, I think he might've forgotten to ask the princesses first. Yes, he should've talked to them first about Sombra, but I think Discord might've thought he could do it on his own.

And like I mentioned, Discord did redeem himself.

[Latecomer 439]

5 minutes ago, Brainstorm said:

 

And like I mentioned, Discord did redeem himself.

In your opinion, at least.

[Quinch 1,120]

Honestly, I think the whole issue could have been served a lot better with a single bit of dialogue along the lines of "we're going to talk about this later" or something of the kind. A reinforcement that what he did was not okay, but that they have bigger problems to deal with right now.

[Brainstorm 4,106]

2 minutes ago, Latecomer said:

In your opinion, at least.

But, one thing questions me, how can Celestia, Luna, and Discord cast the Stone Sleep Spell, I thought they needed the Elements for that.

Also, I think Discord could've at least told the Princesses and Twilight what he was doing.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Brainstorm

[Latecomer 439]

41 minutes ago, Brainstorm said:

But, one thing questions me, how can Celestia, Luna, and Discord cast the Stone Sleep Spell, I thought they needed the Elements for that.

Also, I think Discord could've at least told the Princesses and Twilight what he was doing.

Hell if I know - I guess if Twilight can offer it to Rockhoof, it makes sense that those three can use it too. But I really don't like the idea, especially since it opens up the whole can f worms that is Celestia's statue garden again.

[Ittoni 538]

speaking of Discord, I think he genuinely wanted to reform the villain trio (not sombra though). Just think about it. From the very start, a lot of people pointed out how Grogar's plan was illogical and doomed to fail because, he wanted to destroy friendship by making the trio become friends? That doesn't sound right. I think his plan actually was to see if they could become friends therefore be possible for them to be redeemed. Before knowing it was discord all along i had a few theories on how that could be possible, they would have to attack canterlot but when they started to see each other get in danger because of it they will protect themselves but now as genuine friends, and everyone would see how they actually care for each other, them realizing it, twilight doing a passionate speech about friendship, and become good. That's why Discord as Grogar spent so much time with them doing basically nothing but waiting for them to develop friendship by spending time together, then put on that retrieve the bell activity (maybe he knew there will be an actual bell, maybe not, who knows, because his replacement, the gem thing was as fake as chocolate coins) and it was actually working. But then Chrissy flipped out and everything fall apart without him knowing about what happened. Discord didn't expected to go this way, he expected something else, for them to have the bases for redemption.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Ittoni

[Latecomer 439]

19 minutes ago, Ittoni said:

speaking of Discord, I think he genuinely wanted to reform the villain trio (not sombra though). Just think about it. From the very start, a lot of people pointed out how Grogar's plan was illogical and doomed to fail because, he wanted to destroy friendship by making the trio become friends? That doesn't sound right. I think his plan actually was to see if they could become friends therefore be possible for them to be redeemed. Before knowing it was discord all along i had a few theories on how that could be possible, they would have to attack canterlot but when they started to see each other get in danger because of it they will protect themselves but now as genuine friends, and everyone would see how they actually care for each other, them realizing it, twilight doing a passionate speech about friendship, and become good. That's why Discord as Grogar spent so much time with them doing basically nothing but waiting for them to develop friendship by spending time together, then put on that retrieve the bell activity (maybe he knew there will be an actual bell, maybe not, who knows, because his replacement, the gem thing was as fake as chocolate coins) and it was actually working. But then Chrissy flipped out and everything fall apart without him knowing about what happened. Discord didn't expected to go this way, he expected something else, for them to have the bases for redemption.

And he would never admit this part because it compounds his failure?

[Ittoni 538]

7 minutes ago, Latecomer said:

And he would never admit this part because it compounds his failure?

Probably. Although it would have soften things with the cast because it was a good intention but his pride is a bit bigger. He wanted to do it all alone for starters and he feels pride in being a teacher of lessons.

[KH7672 1,604]

1 hour ago, Ittoni said:

speaking of Discord, I think he genuinely wanted to reform the villain trio (not sombra though). Just think about it. From the very start, a lot of people pointed out how Grogar's plan was illogical and doomed to fail because, he wanted to destroy friendship by making the trio become friends? That doesn't sound right. I think his plan actually was to see if they could become friends therefore be possible for them to be redeemed. Before knowing it was discord all along i had a few theories on how that could be possible, they would have to attack canterlot but when they started to see each other get in danger because of it they will protect themselves but now as genuine friends, and everyone would see how they actually care for each other, them realizing it, twilight doing a passionate speech about friendship, and become good. That's why Discord as Grogar spent so much time with them doing basically nothing but waiting for them to develop friendship by spending time together, then put on that retrieve the bell activity (maybe he knew there will be an actual bell, maybe not, who knows, because his replacement, the gem thing was as fake as chocolate coins) and it was actually working. But then Chrissy flipped out and everything fall apart without him knowing about what happened. Discord didn't expected to go this way, he expected something else, for them to have the bases for redemption.

Sorry, but he made his intentions quite clear.  He wanted to bring all of Twilight's old adversaries together as one of the biggest threats her and her friends ever faced but with him pulling the strings, he could make sure that they were defeated with ease, and thus instill confidence in Twilight's ability as a leader.  Discord's never been one for redemption himself, even going back to Twilight's Kingdom he didn't join Tirek with the intent to change him, but the intent to gain power again.  The thing with the bell has been probably my sorest spot in this whole twist because I sincerely don't know what he would've done if the trio actually would have given him the bell.  This kind of story contrivance really bugs me, and you know what I'm going to bring it up again, it's just as bad as Twilight's Kingdom for me.

I don't think I've ever properly explained how frustrating of a finale that was especially for a key episode, but let me break it down real quick.  The whole point of each character's key episode was to test or be challenged by their element (Rarity being too generous, Rainbow not being loyal, Pinkie being too prideful to bring laughter, Fluttershy being too kind, Applejack not being honest) but how is Twilight's element of Magic tested?  I guess you could say that she gave magic up to offer Discord forgiveness but the problem is that's all she did because the story pulled her along there.  She has this magic because the princesses gave it to her, they had to give it up because Discord betrayed them and is leading Tirek toward them, and that's probably the biggest contrivance of them all.  What would've happened if Discord never betrayed them?  Like the whole beginning of the finale was setting up Twilight not feeling fulfilled in the princess role, but instead of actually getting to make decisions and be challenged in this finale she just gets sidelined and thrown around until she's the only option left.  That doesn't feel fulfilling at all, and if Discord never betrayed them, then she never would've gotten her key or her castle and never would've felt the genuine fulfillment. It makes Celestia look like an even bigger idiot by one not actually helping Twilight, and two making a decision that leads to these contrivances, and not say have Twilight make the decision, make her doubt herself, make her actually mentally struggle in this finale. All the other element's made decisions that impacted their receiving of their key, but Twilight literally does nothing until the last act.

It's the same kind of contrived set up here as will, where "Grogar" does nothing, doesn't explain himself, doesn't hint at what his plan is, so that when the reveal comes you could piece together how Discord really was thinking ahead.  And that's the problem is none of these drawn out plans with good intentions think ahead.  So no I do not believe he had any good intentions for the villains, they were his cannon fodder for building Twilight's confidence, and why he couldn't do that without the bell, and the story had to make them this powered up is beyond me.

[Brainstorm 4,106]

2 hours ago, Latecomer said:

Hell if I know - I guess if Twilight can offer it to Rockhoof, it makes sense that those three can use it too. But I really don't like the idea, especially since it opens up the whole can f worms that is Celestia's statue garden again.

Okay. But, I'm just glad that Discord redeemed himself and Tirek, Cozy, and Crystalias was defeated.

[Latecomer 439]

24 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

 

I don't think I've ever properly explained how frustrating of a finale that was especially for a key episode, but let me break it down real quick.  The whole point of each character's key episode was to test or be challenged by their element (Rarity being too generous, Rainbow not being loyal, Pinkie being too prideful to bring laughter, Fluttershy being too kind, Applejack not being honest) but how is Twilight's element of Magic tested?  I guess you could say that she gave magic up to offer Discord forgiveness but the problem is that's all she did because the story pulled her along there.  She has this magic because the princesses gave it to her, they had to give it up because Discord betrayed them and is leading Tirek toward them, and that's probably the biggest contrivance of them all.  What would've happened if Discord never betrayed them?  Like the whole beginning of the finale was setting up Twilight not feeling fulfilled in the princess role, but instead of actually getting to make decisions and be challenged in this finale she just gets sidelined and thrown around until she's the only option left.  That doesn't feel fulfilling at all, and if Discord never betrayed them, then she never would've gotten her key or her castle and never would've felt the genuine fulfillment. It makes Celestia look like an even bigger idiot by one not actually helping Twilight, and two making a decision that leads to these contrivances, and not say have Twilight make the decision, make her doubt herself, make her actually mentally struggle in this finale. All the other element's made decisions that impacted their receiving of their key, but Twilight literally does nothing until the last act.

Twilight's key conflict should have been choosing Magic over Friendship. That is, it should have been her idea to face Tirek alone rather than getting help from her friends. It makes perfect sense given the vast power disparity between them at that point, while also missing the point of the show's main theme. Because she's so busy hiding her powerup from them, they get captured and used against her. Because she didn't trust her friends and tried to handle it all herself, she couldn't beat Tirek even with the magic of four alicorns.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Latecomer

[Senko 459]

8 hours ago, Brainstorm said:

But, one thing questions me, how can Celestia, Luna, and Discord cast the Stone Sleep Spell, I thought they needed the Elements for that.

I think they only needed the elements back then because they were attempting it on an embodiment of chaos (to the point if he acts orderly he ltierally fades away). Here its a normal pegasus filly, an old and weak centaur and Chryssalis who was probably the most powerful at this time but has presumably been without large amounts of drained love energy for a long time and the one's turning them to stone are 2 Alicorns and said embodiment of chaos. Very different circumstance.

[Rixton 1,105]

1 hour ago, Senko said:

I think they only needed the elements back then because they were attempting it on an embodiment of chaos (to the point if he acts orderly he ltierally fades away). Here its a normal pegasus filly, an old and weak centaur and Chryssalis who was probably the most powerful at this time but has presumably been without large amounts of drained love energy for a long time and the one's turning them to stone are 2 Alicorns and said embodiment of chaos. Very different circumstance.

And we can assume that this time the stone magic was even more distant in time, so it is not likely they have any change of "waking up". Like Discord sad: "Together for ever".
I'm curious will they ever get any chances to redeem them self.

[Sepul-Coloratura 762]

It was a far more better two-parter than the premiere. The only huge flaw was how and why Discord did things at the beginning and at the previous episodes.

And also, there were moments that were exactly like what I envisioned before watching the finale, like the riders of Rohan moment, that was awesome.

Starlight is the only unicorn that knows how to properly fight and others got nerfed.

[KatonRyu 1,033]

I liked this final. Discord being Grogar was unexpected, but taking into account the Beginning of the End it wasn't unreasonable. I also like Cozy Glow a lot as a psychotic villain, so it's always fun seeing her hamming it up. Sure, the episodes weren't perfect, but nothing about them was really bad, just a bit rushed sometimes. I would've liked to have seen more of the villains' work to destabilize Equestria during the season itself, since now we only got one episode where we actually see them trying to play ponies off against each other, yet in this episode Equestria's suddenly on the precipice of a civil war. In that respect, it comes off a bit like a game, where the world state changes instantly depending on one's progress in a quest, rather than truly feeling like the situation evolved into what it's depicted as being. It's also a bit strange that Big Mac and Sugar Belle are together when the tribes split up, but Lyra and Bon Bon (who also proposed to each other the previous episode) are not. Granted, The Last Problem does show they actually got married in the end, but still. And yes, I know they're background ponies despite their popularity, but both the preceding and following episodes reference their relationship, so it stands out that here they don't seem to trust each other enough to stand by one another.

That said, I like the poetic justice of turning the villains into a statue. They weren't reformed, which is good, and they got punished rather harshly, which is even better. I do question how the Princesses were able to do this without the Elements, since they definitely needed them to turn Discord into stone. I also wonder why they didn't do this sooner. Still, a fitting ending.

[Rixton 1,105]

2 hours ago, KatonRyu said:

That said, I like the poetic justice of turning the villains into a statue. They weren't reformed, which is good, and they got punished rather harshly, which is even better. I do question how the Princesses were able to do this without the Elements, since they definitely needed them to turn Discord into stone. I also wonder why they didn't do this sooner. Still, a fitting ending.

@Senko Had theory about it recently:

14 hours ago, Senko said:

I think they only needed the elements back then because they were attempting it on an embodiment of chaos (to the point if he acts orderly he ltierally fades away). Here its a normal pegasus filly, an old and weak centaur and Chryssalis who was probably the most powerful at this time but has presumably been without large amounts of drained love energy for a long time and the one's turning them to stone are 2 Alicorns and said embodiment of chaos. Very different circumstance.

It was sure a good ending, however they did not redeemed had a small down feeling, but anyway, it was still good.

[bwrosas 252]

Made Sure to Get The #MLPSeriesFinale Over This Past Weekend's Pony Palzooa Event , 

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[Senko 459]

Hmmm that reminds me I should back up my copies of the show.

[Rixton 1,105]

2 hours ago, Senko said:

Hmmm that reminds me I should back up my copies of the show.

I already did that, just in case...

[JCKane 345]

I'll do this in parts.

First thing is that, tbh I feel there was a bit of miss potential which I think would of been cool to have desperate stories on.  The Wendigo's being one.  Yeah I know we got their backstory but it would of been interesting to see the Mane 6 take on the Wendigo's separately.  Then, I would of loved if they dived more deeper into the fact that 'Grogar' was secretively Discord and that Discord had been manipulating things behind the scenes to help out his friends (in his mind) by sending them challenges for them to overcome.

Besides that, yeah it was a pretty good episode.  A lot of things came to a head here and it was pretty intense.  Very nice climax for the series.  Though, tbh, I'm slightly disappointed that the 3 main villains were trapped in stone instead of 'turned good' but *shrug*.  Guess that just makes the villain's that weren't turned in the end to 5 now.  (Sombra and ... the villain in the movie being the other 2 )

 

[Latecomer 439]

5 minutes ago, JCKane said:

I'll do this in parts.

First thing is that, tbh I feel there was a bit of miss potential which I think would of been cool to have desperate stories on.  The Wendigo's being one.  Yeah I know we got their backstory but it would of been interesting to see the Mane 6 take on the Wendigo's separately.  Then, I would of loved if they dived more deeper into the fact that 'Grogar' was secretively Discord and that Discord had been manipulating things behind the scenes to help out his friends (in his mind) by sending them challenges for them to overcome.

Besides that, yeah it was a pretty good episode.  A lot of things came to a head here and it was pretty intense.  Very nice climax for the series.  Though, tbh, I'm slightly disappointed that the 3 main villains were trapped in stone instead of 'turned good' but *shrug*.  Guess that just makes the villain's that weren't turned in the end to 5 now.  (Sombra and ... the villain in the movie being the other 2 )

 

I think they should have been frozen by the windigoes due to their powerful hate, leaving the army to face a windigo swarm with the power of their combined friendship.

[JCKane 345]

7 minutes ago, Latecomer said:

I think they should have been frozen by the windigoes due to their powerful hate, leaving the army to face a windigo swarm with the power of their combined friendship.

Eh, honestly Since the focal point of the 'bad guy thing' was the 3 of them, I think it'd be odd if they did it that way... not without setting it up better for it.  The windigo's being there felt more like a "Well, techincally this would of happened so better add it in there" than something they needed to overcome.  Since really, they were 'defeated' by merely defeating the main 3 badies... and :/ there wasn't really a point where they were really 'stopped' by the windigoes either so :/

[Latecomer 439]

1 hour ago, JCKane said:

Eh, honestly Since the focal point of the 'bad guy thing' was the 3 of them, I think it'd be odd if they did it that way... not without setting it up better for it.  The windigo's being there felt more like a "Well, techincally this would of happened so better add it in there" than something they needed to overcome.  Since really, they were 'defeated' by merely defeating the main 3 badies... and :/ there wasn't really a point where they were really 'stopped' by the windigoes either so :/

But the windigoes are an embodiment of anti-friendship, so a suitable final boss. And the villans being taken out by them would keep our heroes hooves clean. (Those who call such things cheap contrivances should see what happens in their absence.)

[Sovereign Leader Rarity 12,006]

Okay, I know that I'm pretty late to the punch with this one, but I'll just give my very brief opinion on the episode(s) anyway.

Overall, I very much enjoyed *The End of the End*. I thought that it's plot was compelling, that it was suitably dark for the final conflict of the show without forgetting the fact that, at the end of the day MLP:FiM IS a kid's show and I enjoyed the villains a lot, and I thought that keeping them from being reformed and then being turned to stone, was a suitable ending for their so-called "Legion of Doom".

Now I know that one of the largest talking points with this two-parter was the reveal at the beginning of the episode, in which we discovered that "Grogar", the presumed villain of the season, was in fact Discord, attempting to to puppeteer Twilight's coronation and an epic battle between her and the three villains, thus bestowing upon her great confidence that would help her rule Equestria in the future, with Discord himself acting as a self-proclaimed "safety-net" of sorts. As explained in the episode, it is then easy to deduce that this entire season, Sombra's attack on the kingdom included, was all staged by Discord for the purpose previously described. This has been a polarising topic amongst the community, with some enjoying the twist and deeming it to make sense, and others arguing that it makes Discord look like a complete and total dullard. I'm somewhere in the middle with this whole debate. You may recall that I mentioned not finding "Grogar" to be a very intriguing villain back when I did a mini-review of *The Beginning of the End*, and I maintained that viewpoint of him throughout the rest of the season to be honest. I didn't find him to be very entertaining, intimidating, really anything. I didn't think that he was a terrible antagonist, but I was very much thinking "Okay, take him or leave him, I've seen this character before, but he's fine, I suppose". The beginning of the episode had me surprised, even though I knew that something was going to take place between the arch-villain and his supposed minions. And I prefer having The Legion of Doom as the antagonists over Grogar, as I just find them to be far more entertaining personality-wise than Grogar ever could be. I don't think that he was squandered potential in that aspect either, nor do I think that explaining the bell's origins or what became if the ACTUAL Grogar enhances this episode's plot in anyway, since that was clearly never it's focus, intention or responsibility.

Now that being said, I do think that this twist DOES somewhat paint Discord in an unflattering light. It makes sense retroactively, and I don't question his motives, as Discord himself says, I'm sure that they were pure, but it does seem to be pretty careless on his behalf, and it does seem that a little bit of thinking ahead could've spared the rest of the kingdom a whole lot of trouble. It very much reminds me of my chief complaint with the episode *Shadow Play* two, in which I thought that Twilight's decision to free the Pillars of Equestria was totally stupid given the context behind it, and it completely undermined the rest on the entire episode for me. It's sort of the same case here, although I will say, nowhere close to the same extent, since I see Discord's intention here a great deal more than Twilight's back then, as it much makes a much greater deal of sense for his character. Twilight is a calculated academic who should have known the risks to her actions as their repercussions were totally expected given the linear situation, while Discord is a emissary of chaos, like a child in the way that he doesn't know his own strength, but at the same time always believes that he has an easy way out with his magic, and so, even though this episode did kind of make him look like a little bit of dum-dum (pardon my French), I personally don't see it as being too out-of character for him. A bit face-palm worthy perhaps, but nothing more.

My only other problem with the episode is that I felt that it was SLIGHTLY rushed and/or cluttered. Maybe it could've benefitted from having one more part, but it's nothing too serious, as I do believe that it's perfectly adequate as it is, even with the lofty expectations that it had to live up to taken into consideration.

So, as mentioned, not a perfect episode by any means, slightly rough around the edges, but, for the final two-parter of the show, I think it definitely works. Not my favourite of the bunch, but definitely in my top five, if not my top three.

Overall, I would give this episode a rating of 8/10.