Chaos: is it Really Evil?

[BalanceBrony 259]

While chaos is not bad, discord is. There is a difference between chaos and discord, Discord obviously following discord. 

 

Discord is disagreement between people, i.e. strife, hostility, bad blood, etc.

Chaos is lack of order, i.e. confusion, mayhem, disorder, etc.

 

Discord is quite clearly following discord by creating strife and disagreement. Were he true chaos, he'd have no alliance and would do good as well. Discord also knows he's bad and enjoyed doing evil, another point against him embodying chaos, which is neither good nor bad. 

 

As for the Changelings, they just committed a terrorist attack and their feeding method apparently reduces the victim to a lifeless husk and mind-rapes them in the process. To propose an alliance right after an attack would be foolish, especially since the comics show that the Changelings regret nothing and that Chrysalis is a monster. 

 

Evilness chart: Sombra>Nightmare Moon>Chrysalis>Demon Sunset Shimmer>Discord

But do the Changelings have a will of their own, or are they mindlessly enslaved to Chrysalis? If the latter is the case, I wonder what would happen if Chrysalis were out of the picture.

 

Discord as a concept is the one thing I think is inherently evil. It is the opposite of Harmony, and results only in widespread misery, as you point out.

[Winona the Dog 1,984]

I think it's really just the classic "It's what you do with X that determines it good or evil" So Incoherently you can be born of chaos (Discord) and still do mane great things. Or you can do bad or among all others, neutral things.

[Hive King 2,001]

But do the Changelings have a will of their own, or are they mindlessly enslaved to Chrysalis? If the latter is the case, I wonder what would happen if Chrysalis were out of the picture.

 

Discord as a concept is the one thing I think is inherently evil. It is the opposite of Harmony, and results only in widespread misery, as you point out.

Good point with the Changelings but they seem to have some emotions. They made evil grins and leers to the Mane 6. Still though, the fact that a Changeling victim has their soul drained slowly raises questions about them being able to ally with Equestria. It'd be like zombies allying with humans, it just wouldn't work out in the end due to the inherent species problems.

[Flutter's lover <3 8,205]

Did somepony say chaos?

 

Chaos is simply going against the rules,wreaking havoc across a town or city. Though there can be Good Chaos and there can be bad chaos...Pinkie is a great example of "Chaotic Good" where as Discord is a good example of "Chaoitic Evil" Just look at the "Alignment System"

 

[Scootalove 10,689]

It's pretty hard to understand chaos, since it is something that we can not control. Chaos is something that is neither good or bad, it is more of a neutral odd occurrence in nature that we do not understand and can not analyze it.

[The Prime Reaper 180]

 

 

Also, please don't bring religion into this.

 

I am not religious but just a scientific deist.

Deism and atheism are the two common believes which scientists choosing.

I just want to clarify that to you that i don't believe Big Bang can create the universe out of nothingness. 

[Malinter 3,064]

I am not religious but just a scientific deist.

Deism and atheism are the two common believes which scientists choosing.

I just want to clarify that to you that i don't believe Big Bang can create the universe out of nothingness. 

 

no one ever said it was made of nothingness. we just don't have a clue was was before the big bang so we've 'nothing' to to subsitute for it until we do (if we do)

[The Prime Reaper 180]

no one ever said it was made of nothingness. we just don't have a clue was was before the big bang so we've 'nothing' to to subsitute for it until we do (if we do)

Stephen Hawking and other scientists stated that there is nothing before the big bang but they don't really know who made the big bang.

The only thing that before Big Bang is only an omnipotent creator and order.

Chaos doesn't exsist yet!

[Malinter 3,064]

Stephen Hawking and other scientists stated that there is nothing before the big bang but they don't really know who made the big bang.

The only thing that before Big Bang is only an omnipotent creator and order.

Chaos doesn't exsist yet!

 

How can there be nothing when one the rule of 'energy can neither be created or destroyed, it can only change form one form to another' exists. something would have to be there.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Malinter

[The Prime Reaper 180]

How can there be nothing when one the rule of 'energy can neither be created or destroyed, it can only change form one form to another' exists. something would have to be there.

 

Dalton has been wrong about that atom can't be divided (nuclear reaction).

He might be probably wrong that energy can't be destroyed too. We only know about 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000001% about the universe. As some chances, energy can be created or destroyed?

We just don't know but i am very sure that in the beginning there is nothing except for a creator. (That is something would have been there).

[Arcangel 9]

the only thing wrong about the big bang theory is that while it logically explains the creation of the universe, there are two things it cannot (possibly ever) cover/or explain.

 

1/ What existed before the big bang.

2/ What exists outside of it.

Before the big bang, there was one very tiny, very dense singularity, which rapidly expanded because of the Higgs-Boson. Before that, there was another universe which collapsed into said singularity. Outside our universe, there are infinite universes existing within a four dimensional plane.

[Malinter 3,064]

Dalton has been wrong about that atom can't be divided (nuclear reaction).

He might be probably wrong that energy can't be destroyed too. We only know about 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000001% about the universe. As some chances, energy can be created or destroyed?

We just don't know but i am very sure that in the beginning there is nothing except for a creator. (That is something would have been there).

 

Wait... wouldn't that imply our 'creator' blew himself to pieces with the big bang? Hmm.. the universe is one big 'Oops' i'm quite content with that for some reason.... dunno why.

[The Prime Reaper 180]

Wait... wouldn't that imply our 'creator' blew himself to pieces with the big bang? Hmm.. the universe is one big 'Oops' i'm quite content with that for some reason.... dunno why.

 

Let's strike this further.

Our Creator said : "Let's there be light!"

Then there was a Big Bang, creating the stars and planets even organic lives.

[Malinter 3,064]

Let's strike this further.

Our Creator said : "Let's there be light!"

Then there was a Big Bang, creating the stars and planets even organic lives.

 

Thats boring. I like mine better.

 

"Come on... Come on... alittle more.... Ah it wor... oh fuc... *boom*

 

*universe is born, creator is just a disembodied voice*

 

"For F**k sake.... thats the 6th time this has happened... now i have to wait for it to reset again..."

[BalanceBrony 259]

Guys, I think we are deviating from the topic here. The discussion of the origins of our Universe is best left to the off-topic forums, and religion should be entirely avoided, as it can lead to flame wars.

 

The focus of this discussion is simply to meditate on whether the Equestrians are approaching Harmony, Order, and Chaos properly. Discussion of where our Universe came from, and religious notions are moot for our purposes here. Please let's bring this back on topic. I don't want any unwanted mod attention.

[TheSupremeLeaderOfChaos 1,206]

Your post =

 

 

Seriously. This is an awesome explanation of chaos and order and all things in between. My mind has just been blown. Thank you for that. I don't even know how to reply to that. Except that you are amazing. And Equestria is a very flawed place. Yeah, that's about all I can come up with at the moment. But really. You are awesome. Thank you.

 

 

[Koelath 445]

No, chaos is not inherently evil and anyone who has ever even remotely suggested otherwise, real or fictional, does not understand morality.

[Frith is Magick 1,471]

Disclaimer: This is my belief and philosophy, and should not be interpreted as me trying to state fact or imply that I have some sort of understanding that others lack.

 

I agree largely that the only thing that can be considered "bad" (meaning it has harmful consequences) is extremism. Pure Chaos is strife and pain, there is change, but no creative direction, causing everything to fall apart. Pure Order is stagnation and death. Nothing changes, nothing grows. There is a guide, but nothing driving growth. Harmony and Balance do not mean pure order, and they do not mean a 50/50 split, Harmony is the point at which the sum of benefits exceeds the sum of the drawbacks.

 

Equestria seems to be on the Order side of Harmony. It has a relatively homogeneous population, and experiences little turmoil. The status quo is maintained longer, and there is little deviation from what is "normal". Technological, social and linguistic development seem to occur at a slow rate. Luna's speech, supposedly from 1000 years ago, resembles the English spoken 300-500 years ago on Earth. There is just enough Chaos to keep things from stagnating and becoming an endless, perfect cycle, but more would bring Equestria closer to Balance.

 

The problem with Discord is that despite bringing much needed Chaos and stirring the pot, the effect is concentrated in a relatively small area, shifting the imbalance to the other side of the spectrum in one region without affecting it elsewhere. If Discord were to travel Equestria, it would encourage growth and change, without becoming too concentrated. 

 

Long story short I do not believe Chaos to be inherently evil. Ignoring the fact that I don't truly believe in evil in the first place, Order needs an opposite, both to define it and to balance the effects. Too much medicine quickly becomes a poison. Sorry for the discontinuity, I wrote the first little bit a few hours earlier than the rest, so there is a shift in the train of thought.

[The Prime Reaper 180]

Did somepony say chaos?

 

Chaos is simply going against the rules,wreaking havoc across a town or city. Though there can be Good Chaos and there can be bad chaos...Pinkie is a great example of "Chaotic Good" where as Discord is a good example of "Chaoitic Evil" Just look at the "Alignment System"

 

 

We believe chaos is good because of our rebellious minds.

The Creator gave us free will so we can reshape our fate whenever we desire. We created chaos in our thought!!

We created chaos in which it had been harming the world for aeons.

There is no such thing is chaotic good! Chaotic good is good when it is against the man-made laws but not natural made-law. Man-made laws are always flawed since our petty rebellious minds aren't omniscient to judge people. But it is never good when you are chaotic good against natural order beside lawful evil is also chaotic because there is no such thing in the universe can make their own laws except the Creator.

 

I am not religious but scientifically saying with full sense of logic.

[BalanceBrony 259]

We believe chaos is good because of our rebellious minds.

The Creator gave us free will so we can reshape our fate whenever we desire. We created chaos in our thought!!

We created chaos in which it had been harming the world for aeons.

There is no such thing is chaotic good! Chaotic good is good when it is against the man-made laws but not natural made-law. Man-made laws are always flawed since our petty rebellious minds aren't omniscient to judge people. But it is never good when you are chaotic good against natural order beside lawful evil is also chaotic because there is no such thing in the universe can make their own laws except the Creator.

 

I am not religious but scientifically saying with full sense of logic.

I am trying very hard to be open-minded here. Now, I am going to try and list your points, to see if I can follow the logic chain. I will then explain where I take issue with your logic, or see holes in it.

 

1. Humans were given free will to shape their fate.

2. Humans created the notion of chaos. 

3. We created chaos.

4. There is no such thing as Chaotic Good 

 

Now, to be a little more specific, I will give you somewhere to start with your counterarguments.

 

On your second point, I see no evidence that Chaos is a strictly human construct. Until you provide your reasoning for this point, your whole argument will not work.

 

Now, let us assume that you prove that Chaos is a strictly human construct, what then? You still need to explain to me why Chaos is Evil. From what I read, you are defining "evil" as anything that goes against natural law. But natural law is all-encompassing. All man-made laws are derived from it.

 

Further, natural law applies to the whole of the Universe, including Chaos. I see no evidence whatsoever that Chaos is unnatural. Chaos just happened, because when Order was created, its opposite was created too, since Order and Chaos rely on each other to exist. You can't have one without the other. It's not possible. So in short, I still do not see your reasoning for your statement that Chaos is evil. Arguments of natural law actually support the fact that Chaos is not evil.

[Galen 1,354]

As OP says, there seems to be some level of misunderstanding over what Harmony actually is, but I have to wonder whether or not that has to do with Equestria itself or people's perception of Equestria.

 

Harmony can be seen all around us in the natural world. Nature is neither orderly nor chaotic. It is neutral. The wind blows when it needs to just as the rain falls when it needs to. Plants grow, die, and become part of the earth once more. Animals establish their home but often don't stay in one place, birds being a good example of this. There is no overemphasis on achieving a certain state of being in society, whether that is one of absolute order or total chaos. The fact is, everything that can happen within the bounds of reality will happen, regardless of how much you try to stop it by enforcing order.

 

This, I believe, can be said to form the basis behind Newtown's law where every force will be met by an equal and opposite force. Thus you find more civil unrest in a totalitarian state which uses fear to oppress people into living by a certain fashion, which anarchistic societies often meet self-destruction when anyone and everyone is allowed to do whatever they want regardless of other people's subsequent sufferings. As OP said, Harmony is not about shutting out deviances, but welcoming them and adapting to new environments all the while maintaining a level of respect for your surroundings and the people you see.

 

But how much does all this have to do with Equestria? Throughout the series you don't really get a sense of order being enforced on anyone, especially when every individual has virtually complete free reign over what they want to do in their lives from an early age. Despite this very chaotic aspect of Equestrian society, a very good degree of order is maintained. This is indeed because harmony is achieved among its citizens. Outliers such as Discord and Chrysalis do exist. Discord, to me, was never outright evil, but his form of chaos wanted to shut out everything that was orderly. His aim was to disrupt harmony, not order. Not even Chrysalis can be said to be outright evil, but defending Canterlot was necessary purely for the fact that her people's survival depended almost entirely on the extermination of Equestrian society.

[BalanceBrony 259]

As OP says, there seems to be some level of misunderstanding over what Harmony actually is, but I have to wonder whether or not that has to do with Equestria itself or people's perception of Equestria.

 

Harmony can be seen all around us in the natural world. Nature is neither orderly nor chaotic. It is neutral. The wind blows when it needs to just as the rain falls when it needs to. Plants grow, die, and become part of the earth once more. Animals establish their home but often don't stay in one place, birds being a good example of this. There is no overemphasis on achieving a certain state of being in society, whether that is one of absolute order or total chaos. The fact is, everything that can happen within the bounds of reality will happen, regardless of how much you try to stop it by enforcing order.

 

This, I believe, can be said to form the basis behind Newtown's law where every force will be met by an equal and opposite force. Thus you find more civil unrest in a totalitarian state which uses fear to oppress people into living by a certain fashion, which anarchistic societies often meet self-destruction when anyone and everyone is allowed to do whatever they want regardless of other people's subsequent sufferings. As OP said, Harmony is not about shutting out deviances, but welcoming them and adapting to new environments all the while maintaining a level of respect for your surroundings and the people you see.

 

But how much does all this have to do with Equestria? Throughout the series you don't really get a sense of order being enforced on anyone, especially when every individual has virtually complete free reign over what they want to do in their lives from an early age. Despite this very chaotic aspect of Equestrian society, a very good degree of order is maintained. This is indeed because harmony is achieved among its citizens. Outliers such as Discord and Chrysalis do exist. Discord, to me, was never outright evil, but his form of chaos wanted to shut out everything that was orderly. His aim was to disrupt harmony, not order. Not even Chrysalis can be said to be outright evil, but defending Canterlot was necessary purely for the fact that her people's survival depended almost entirely on the extermination of Equestrian society.

Well, I would argue that free will isn't even truly existent in Equestrian society. You have your cutie mark, which determines your purpose in life, and no matter what you try or may be good at, you have only one duty to fulfill in society, and that is the duty prescribed by your cutie mark. Mind, this is not something instituted by choice. It is just the nature of ponies.

 

Regarding your point about Newton's law, I have actually been down this train of thought many times, regarding Harmony and Balance. After much dialectic with various other philosophically minded people, I reached the conclusion that, while all things strive towards a relatively equal state, the causal chain is very much different  from the notion of equal-but-opposite.

 

In essence, Balance works like this. In a given duality, represented by the Yin Yang, the two opposing forces tug equally on each other. The actual process is more complex, but in essence that is what is occurring. At face value, equal-but-opposite vs. push-and-pull seem very similar causally. But in actuality, there is a crucial distinction. Equal-but-opposite is more along the lines of a constant struggle between two forces, constantly beating at each other.  This is not Harmony. The push-and-pull model is Harmony, where the two forces are not at conflict, but rather they work together to form an endless cycle, where no force overcomes the other. It took me a while to note that distinction, and up until I reached that epiphany, all of my arguments for Balance seemed to fall short. Now I know why.

Edited October 25, 2013 by BalanceBrony

[Galen 1,354]

 

 

Well, I would argue that free will isn't even truly existent in Equestrian society. You have your cutie mark, which determines your purpose in life, and no matter what you try or may be good at, you have only one duty to fulfill in society, and that is the duty prescribed by your cutie mark. Mind, this is not something instituted by choice. It is just the nature of ponies.

 

Cutie marks are like D&D alignments. They're not what determine what you should be, but an indication of what you're already good at. Applejack's cutie mark, for example, exists to symbolize her honesty and her loyalty to her family and the farm. It has nothing to do with her ability to applebuck. Twilight's cutie mark denotes not her talent for magic, but her talent for understanding concepts not normally comprehensible to others. Her unparalleled talent for magic is merely a consequence of this. A good indication for this is Twilight's great skill for organization, which has nothing to do with magic. It's not the cutie mark that dictates you. It's you who dictates the cutie mark, similarly to D&D alignments which are defined by your choices rather than the alignment itself telling you what to do.

 

 

 

In essence, Balance works like this. In a given duality, represented by the Yin Yang, the two opposing forces tug equally on each other. The actual process is more complex, but in essence that is what is occurring. At face value, equal-but-opposite vs. push-and-pull seem very similar causally. But in actuality, there is a crucial distinction. Equal-but-opposite is more along the lines of a constant struggle between two forces, constantly beating at each other. This is not Harmony. The push-and-pull model is Harmony, where the two forces are not at conflict, but rather they work together to form an endless cycle, where no force overcomes the other. It took me a while to note that distinction, and up until I reached that epiphany, all of my arguments for Balance seemed to fall short. Now I know why.

 

I can agree with this. Granted, my understanding of Newton's laws aren't all that great. Yinyang is a much better concept to explain harmony since that is its ultimate goal. Yin and Yang both contain elements that directly oppose each other but a truly balanced and harmonious being or society cannot exist without the other. Light can't exist without dark and vice-versa for instance, for both concepts only exist because the other is there to balance it.

[BalanceBrony 259]

Cutie marks are like D&D alignments. They're not what determine what you should be, but an indication of what you're already good at. Applejack's cutie mark, for example, exists to symbolize her honesty and her loyalty to her family and the farm. It has nothing to do with her ability to applebuck. Twilight's cutie mark denotes not her talent for magic, but her talent for understanding concepts not normally comprehensible to others. Her unparalleled talent for magic is merely a consequence of this. A good indication for this is Twilight's great skill for organization, which has nothing to do with magic. It's not the cutie mark that dictates you. It's you who dictates the cutie mark, similarly to D&D alignments which are defined by your choices rather than the alignment itself telling you what to do.

 

 

 

 

I can agree with this. Granted, my understanding of Newton's laws aren't all that great. Yinyang is a much better concept to explain harmony since that is its ultimate goal. Yin and Yang both contain elements that directly oppose each other but a truly balanced and harmonious being or society cannot exist without the other. Light can't exist without dark and vice-versa for instance, for both concepts only exist because the other is there to balance it.

I don't know much about D & D, and I suppose your reasoning about the cutie marks is right. Funny how I watched The Last Roundup earlier, and was still thinking that cutie marks are utterly binding.

 

Yeah. I think anypony who ponders Balance goes down a similar train of thought eventually. But a problem I've always had is what I should do with the ideas I have realised. Isorropism (the philosophy of Balance) is difficult to sell to skeptics, and I still haven't found a good logic chain which can win arguments with non-isorropists. The best I've come up with still has an inherent assumption at its roots, albeit an assumption which has not yet been proven wrong. But if I could solidify this one assumption with evidence, the whole theory would work like clockwork. I would like to discuss this assumption, but it is out of place here. for the sake of our discussion, Harmony has been pretty much fleshed out.

[FNGRpony 658]

We believe chaos is good because of our rebellious minds.

The Creator gave us free will so we can reshape our fate whenever we desire. We created chaos in our thought!!

We created chaos in which it had been harming the world for aeons.

There is no such thing is chaotic good! Chaotic good is good when it is against the man-made laws but not natural made-law. Man-made laws are always flawed since our petty rebellious minds aren't omniscient to judge people. But it is never good when you are chaotic good against natural order beside lawful evil is also chaotic because there is no such thing in the universe can make their own laws except the Creator.

 

I am not religious but scientifically saying with full sense of logic.

 

 

I would think a scientific mind would love the concept of chaotic good.  when things have a natural equil Librium there's a certain amount of chance,

chaos if you will that goes into them.

I mean if your being nit picking,

We as humans created good and evil.

 

If your telling my by the rules of science

what right does science have to state what is evil and what is not?

 

Other than what ever halts progress, i'm guessing?

BUt even progress can be a short sighted matter,

okay i'm gonna stop before i brain myself.