Bronies defying gender roles.... A bunch of nonsense?

[Lakes Geek 15]

Some very interesting points in the thread.  Indeed, I myself have said that this generation is "a bit more gender neutral" and in hindsight it's when I've been trying to defend myself for watching it (which I shouldn't do. It's my right, people can think what they want).  But when you really think about it - it's created by a feminist who wanted to do a show FOR GIRLS that doesn't suck, is a story about some female friends in a matriarchal society etc.  Of course it's for girls.  Hmm.. perhaps what I mean is that it's more inclusive in addition to being for girls.  And also that it's not your typical low quality stuff that people stereotype a "girls show" to be: which is not a reflection on the gender in any way, just the second class way they've sadly been treated in toys and entertainment.

 

You're right, we're not entirely subverting gender roles.  Many of us have the little plastic toys, the plushies and even the brushable ponies which some of us even sit there brushing... but gotta admit, it's mostly just a desire to hoard merch (which is... I'd say mostly a male thing).  You still won't see many of us wearing pink (unless it's pony related), wearing skirts dresses or feminine footwear, taking a keen interest in let's say knitting, or many other 'traditionally feminine' things that aren't related to the herd.

 

And I'm really not sure that "being secure enough in your masculinity to do feminine things" even makes sense, heh... that's just going back to the requirement to be masculine and somehow saying that doing something feminine with confidence is manly.

 

However, I do think we're dipping a toe into it.  It is one thing that is a bit "girly" that we're (for those who are) openly enjoying in public, which is an improvement on 0 things, and big changes like that don't necessarily make a full scale change overnight.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Lakes Geek

[Sweet Dreams 1,893]

That's actually a really good point.

 

In a perfect world, we'd all be able to watch whatever the f*ck we want to and nobody would criticise us for it. But this isn't a perfect world, so bronies are always going to be criticised, to some extent, for watching a little girls' show.

So really, we have a few options. Pointing out all the reasons why it's 'a show for men' is one, but it's really not helping anything. As you said, it's contributing to the problem.

Not giving two flying f*cks is really the best option. You don't have to explain yourself to anybody just because you enjoy a show. So what of it's for young girls? It's 2014, stranger things have happened.

People will become more accepting over time, but in the meantime, why bother trying to make out the show to be something it's not? OP is right, it's contradicting the cool part of being a brony, giving the middle finger to society's expectations. I mean, I'm a 14 year old girl, so I suppose this doesn't apply to me as much as it does everyone else on this site. Oh well.

[Coco before Pommel 678]

I have noticed this very same thing.

 

When I heard of the fandom I was so thrilled to see guys actually liking something for girls (most aren't secure enough for that), but eventually I noticed that the fandom is not quite that progressive. Comments saying that the show is good DESPITE being for girls is very common... And then there's a topic that pops up all of the time around here that goes something like "MLP is gender-neutral, not for girls anymore". Like... The show is actually good, and a fair bit of the fandom can't admit that it is good while simultaneously seeing it as media intended for girls. That is a bit sexist, and most certainly is not defying any gender roles.

 

Combine all of the above with the overabunbance of porn drawings and charactarizations of the characters that are dehumanizing and very incompatible with how they're actually depicted in the show, and, of course, the violent fan-creations and I just... I can't see this fandom as so great and progressive anymore.

 

As a feminist, I'm all about men not being subjected to these stupid gender roles, which are all rooted in women and feminity being seen as inferior. But somehow this fandom came around with the guise of "Look at us, we're all about destroying gender roles", yet they're only working to reinforce them, especially in the public's eyes. When mothers see their child run into porn of their favorite character they're going to immediately think "This is why grown men should never watch a show for little girls", while I'm wondering why exactly it is this fandom even needs all of this... Shouldn't they be all about enjoying the show for what it is? If the fandom could become about that, then maybe then, and only then, would it be fighting harmful gender roles.

You said pretty much everything I wanted to say on this topic re (some) bronies and MLP being good *despite* its being for girls, as though "for girls" is an inherently negative quality - it's definitely something I've noticed, to the point where I wonder if some people aren't doing it on a subconscious level with trying to make the show/ more ~dark and edgy than it really is to justify liking it. I've also seen people complaining that certain episodes were "too girly" as a criticism, which...yeah. -_- I don't have a problem with the R34/grimdark/more "adult" aspects of the fandom existing, as long as they're tagged appropriately and kept to places where kids shouldn't be able to see it - but it does really annoy me when certain interpretations that aren't remotely supported by the actual show are used to justify, implicitly, that MLP is totally a dark and edgy mature show for manly men!! Because they couldn't possibly admit to liking something that's *gasp* FOR GIRLS.

 

Definitely not all, or even most of male bronies I've encountered have this attitude - there are tons who seem to genuinely love and appreciate the show and characters for what they are. But I do see it around often enough to realise there's plenty of sexism and misogyny in the fandom too - and it's hardly unique in that respect, lots of fandoms have these problems! But I think it's the fact that (again, some very vocal) bronies are the ones always going around shouting about how they're smashing down gender barriers and are somehow special/deserving of praise by their very virtue of, omg, being MALE and watching MLP!! - that makes it even more obvious that, no, guys, we're really not that progressive. I don't like in general saying "fandom SHOULD be about this or that", because everyone enjoys things their own way - and liking more adult things in the fandom doesn't mean someone can't appreciate the show as it is too - but I just generally think (SOME) bronies need to calm down in general about how ~special and progressive they are~ for liking a show for girls, ESPECIALLY if they're going to turn around and argue that it's okay because it's not "really" girly, because we all know that's THE WORST. POSSIBLE. THING. I think *any* fandom that insists it's the most progressive thing ever is setting itself up to fail (I see this A LOT on Tumblr), and in bronies' case it's giving the haters that much more ammunition against us. Just liking something, anything, isn't some sort of social justice crusade or subversive statement in itself - while going against stereotypes is awesome and I'm all for it, hell that's part of why I like FiM itself so much - it's just, well, being a fan? and I can't help feeling if some bronies just acted like we're one of many, many fandoms that exist for all kinds of things on the internet, instead of demanding special treatment and attention all the time, THAT would actually be somewhat more progressive and against gender roles.

 

...sorry that got kinda rambly and off topic and I'm probably not making much sense but I guess I have feelings about this ^^;;

[Lakes Geek 15]

Although it's not special in itself, I do however think the community/fandom is a good confidence booster that at least contributes to it and gets people talking about it, so whilst it's not as revolutionary as some bronies make out and that we're not suddenly heroes of equality or something, I do think it has an effect and focuses our attention on it, which can only be a good thing.  We just get a little overexcited in, I think, well meaning but misguided pride about it.

 

In terms of boosting confidence, I don't think I'd have been brave enough to wear some of the very cute and feminine t-shirts I've been displaying recently.  I won't lie: frankly my reasons are selfish - a "busting down gender roles" mission was never really at the forefront of my mind (though I do think it's an excellent thing), I just like cute things, love that I have an 'excuse' (that I shouldn't need) to wear them and like flipping the metaphorical middle finger to anyone who laughs at me for it (it happens, walking past kids or whatever) and do my very small part towards normalising things like that.

 

So whilst I think we have a bad habit of exaggerating what we do for breaking down gender roles making it more acceptable for people to subvert gender roles if they choose to, I don't think we're completely worthless with it and that it does make a reasonably valuable contribution.

 

 

(I changed my mind and crossed out "breaking down gender roles" because some people prefer to have them for themselves and that's fine, that's their choice.  Transgendered people, for example, benefit from gender roles to help them assert their desired identity - I know as I'm friends with one.  She hates the idea of making everything totally equal as she struggles enough to get people to accept her as female already without also doing away with "feminine things".  The difference is in society finding it more acceptable for people not to follow the roles if they choose not to).

Edited November 5, 2014 by Lakes Geek

[Toast 55]

i don't know about any of this gender role stuff. I don't see why we can't like the show if we're men.

[111111 111]

I don't have an awful lot to add but I wanted to share my opinion anyway. I whatch mlp because of the fun,because its good plo and because I love the cute momments. Like when Scotaloo tells Rainbow that's she was scared and Rainbow is just so understanding. That make me feel warm inside and I often giggle.

 

If anyone defines that as crossing gender lines(for a guy), so be it. I'm not going to stop giggling to the show or try to manlyfie it. It is,what it is and I love my little pony just for that simple reason.

[EpitomeOfTruth 243]

Better question: Since when was this fandom ever about breaking gender roles in the first place? Ever since the 4chan days, the main reason the fandom existed is because the show was good, and that's all there was to it. I'm not quite sure where all of this progressive mumbo-jumbo came from, but I do know this, I'm fine with the whole breaking gender norms thing, but I don't think that this cartoon should be a vessel for promoting this agenda.

[Gernia 690]

You raise some good points.

 

It could be a multitude of reasons why, but I feel that some of the male fans have an ego, and they are trying to provide a justification in order to stop all criticism that it may be inferior or not worthwhile might be the issue here, while countering the statement "it's for little girls".

 

The thing with being male is that there are certain standards that are ingrained and taught to us and state we must act a certain way, and that whatever is feminine is not good, essentially, in which some fall men will into line with that (I am generalizing a lot, but there is definitely some truth to this). I think that's why some of the "haters" have such an elitist mentality by looking down upon the show and disrespecting it as well as male fans like myself. They do it probably because they think the show isn't very good and they probably want to feel better about themselves by bashing it (I'm talking about actual people, not trolls) because that's what some of them have learned to be like. In turn, some bronies will defend it and say that the show was actually made for them, or is actually good, or something that implies "feminine = bad". Those bronies do it to save face and make it look like they are normal males despite their interest. That would also explain why some guys are afraid to admit they like MLP. They want to feel comfortable with their gender stereotypes, to come across as "normal", and they want to keep it that way in spite of enjoying MLP.

 

Those are my thoughts, you can take them or leave them.

 

Edit: mind you, I'm not including those that troll or just do those things because they think its funny.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Gernia

[Visual Spectrum 1,932]

Sex: Female

Gender: Male

Gender Expression: Male (physically) none (mentally) 

 

 

If you are familiar with FtM transsexuals, a lot of them, especially those who are just now transitioning, will stay away from anything girly to get that image away from them. I could care less either way. I am not masculine nor feminine. There are times I may appear manly, there are times I may appear girly, but most of the time, I will not fit into any gender roll.

 

I like watching MLP because of the story and the lessons. It's a show that can entertain me. Shows don't need to have a girl complaining about how her stupid boyfriend cheated on her or two men beating eachother up all the time. I am not going to point out all the manly stuff unless someone says there aren't any and it's all about tea parties and gossip. Only one episode had gossip by the way. 

 

Hay, I find myself to be most like Rarity and Applejack. Rarity is feminine, and Applejack is masculine to an extent. I have moments where I could be feminine. For example, I can be very melodramatic and expressive. I can also be masculine but not overly masculine. I am capable of doing work without worrying about my nails getting ruined. I will take out the trash without complaining. I am often well mannered towards others.

 

I don't care what society says a man should be or a woman should be. I don't like violence and sports, nor do I like chick flicks and make up. Does that make me genderless? No. I am a man. 

 

I prefer shows that are gender neutral or shows that may be intended for a certain gender but not going overboard. (A show for girls having drama and tea parties or a show for boys being violent and have tons of explosions.) Friendship is Magic is a girl's show that is not overboard, and I like it that way. 

 

Some feminine stuff are fine. Some masculine stuff are fine. Being all feminine or all masculine bores me, though. That is my opinion. 

[SilverLine 20]

Not to mention that some women are attracted to the most aggressive or criminally insane men types. I've learned that Ted Bundy received 120 love letters from women living in the same town where he was executed.  

 

As I said before, men and women have different personalities and thoughts.

Edited November 10, 2014 by SilverLine

[Christmasy Britty 2,553]

ponies is kinda a show that really cannot be labled or put into one catagory of gender, there are moments where it becomes masculine and moments where it becomes feminized but overall the show is about friendship which all genders can relate to cause all we want in the world is friendship or even a partner in life, (a love partner is technically your best friend) so overall gender may play a part in why the show attracts girls and guys

[Emmathebrony 20]

being an androygenous but female brony I enjoy the masculinity and the feminity of the show. BUT more importantly I think the lessons of friendship and self esteem should be taught to everypony stalion or mare.  Friendship shouldn't be just a girl thing... that's what the big problem really is, is that people view friendship as childish and girlish and because of that our world is not a safe place.

[Confucius 194]

What ticks me off a lot is the fact that while girls do sports and are tough and rough (like RD), everyone calls them cool and they are looked up upon. Then a guy likes a show with colorful adorable ponies in it with a soft heart people snowball him with homophobic or masculinity insults.

[Espurr 449]

Gender role? That's a thing?

 

Haha. Just kidding. But seriously, why is that a thing?

[MechanicalDoom 300]

I came to this thread expecting to get butthurt, but I actually get what you're saying. Bronies who defend themselves with the fight scenes are trying to hide the fact that they enjoy the show for what it really is. It's a show that was written well enough to be enjoyed by anyone. Bronies should stand by that idea rather than the other one. We'll get hate from people who only see ponies and think "HA GAY" but we'll be a lot more honest that way.

[TubeSock2018 325]

"But I've seen Bronies trying to defend their love for the show by pointing out how manly it supposedly is underneath the girly stuff."

 

Hey, he's got a point here. It is true.

If anything, it'd be mlp defying its "gender" role.

Which, in part, it has.

[Po-Nonimous 583]

@CupcakeEmpire

 

Good points in your post there but the whole thing raises several more questions in my mind concerning the whole adult-male-gender-role thing concerning those who love the show (like me).

 

It's not any Brony's fault we love the show. It's not something that would ever legitimately stand as an accusation or fault, does it? I don't think so.

 

To me, anyone who goes about calling names or insulting anyone for something they like isn't a man at all. Really, they're insecure little boys playing bully on the Internet in order to make themselves feel better, that's all.

 

As far as I'm concerned, I don't have time or energy for anyone who wants to feel better about themselves by putting down others. If any of us and, ideally, all of us, just totally ignored those who posted on forums, on blogs or on Youtube about how they hate this and that, never gave them any attention at all, I could almost 100 percent guarantee you that they'd disappear like a fart in the wind!

 

After all, why're they posting hateful or insulting posts or Youtube videos other than for the attention? I'd say that's exactly why they're doing it and if they didn't get that attention they'd quickly stop and not bother doing it, anymore.

 

So, my suggestion is, next time you come across some insulting Youtube vid or forum or blog post insulting ponies, just ignore it. Make it clear to them that they don't deserve from you the attention they crave. A tree that gets no water quickly dies. A troll that gets no attention quickly disappears.

[Eloquence 2,076]

Well first of all, I wouldn't say that bronies are defying gender roles by liking something feminine just based on the knowledge that not all bronies are men

 

(Which I think most of you know, but I do like to throw out the reminder when these sorts of topics come up)

 

I have seen this happen before as well. It is a sad fact that there are sexist MLP fans, but also one that we really should have seen coming given that MLP fans aren't separate from society or anything and society is on average sexist (I'll add the obvious disclaimer that not everyone is sexist to cover my bases). It is very sad to see people say that the action and adventure portions of MLP make it "not for girls", especially given that I have seen both bronies and anti-bronies make these comments. As for whether it is ever ok to say that a guy liking MLP is ok because it's manly, under any circumstances, I'm going to have to put my hoof down and give a very firm NO on that one.

 

When someone says "no liking MLP is fine because it has manly things in it", even when they're just saying it to get that god-damn fluffhead who's been screaming at them for three days to just shut up already, it validates that fluffhead's sexism. It says to them and everyone else who's listening "Ok, I give up. You are right, men should only like manly things." That is an awful, hurtful thing to say, even if you don't mean it and are just saying it to try to make someone go away, and it makes our entire fandom look bad. Please don't ever say this. Please just ignore trolls and jerks on the internet, or if someone genuinely asks explain that there is nothing wrong with liking girly things, because there is nothing wrong with being a girl.

 

Personally, I don't believe in designating, well, anything really, as being "for girls" or "for boys", but My Little Pony has a mostly female cast with a traditionally feminine appearance and theme, and those things are awesome and should not be treated like they need to be erased or justified. Long live the feminine, feminist show we all know and love, and may its beauty not be warped by those who seek to make it fit in with worthless societal norms and ideals!

[Cwanky 17,457]

Perhaps people have been looking too at just 1 side of the coin. Consider it this way, how often have women in the past taken up a male dominated activity? 

 

Danica Patrick and NASCAR among others? Starcraft and gaming in general? Watching football and basketball "with the dudes?" Becoming the family breadwinners?

 

In fact its not only been largely tolerated, with a few criticisms here and there outside the Muslim world, its been misused. Instead of being something gender defying, it often even becomes a way to further objectify women.

 

Now look back at this side, when's the last time I guy wearing female clothing, save doing female things has drawn controversy?

 

A butt fucking many times. Fag, weak, wimp, womanizer. As if its even wrong to be homosexual or adopt feminine traits. Trust me on the scale of masculine controversy, bronies still are in the back of the hater's minds.

 

As I've said time and again before I don't personally consider myself a "brony."  Its a rather narrow and endearing term that limits the view of the fandom to a young mature male hipster audience.

 

The truly ironic thing is that in this day and age a girl can watch a show like Transformers or play Starcraft and no one will make a fuss about it. They may even cheer her on. 

 

Yet, heaven forbid that a boy watches a show like MLP:FiM or Sailor Moon, they're described as being an oddball, gay and called out for it. 

[KatonRyu 1,026]

I'm absolutely certain I'm one of the cretins who has said something about MLP 'not being for little girls because lasers hurr' at some point in the past, but if I think about it more that's really flawed logic probably stemming from insecurity.

 

I think gender roles and gender inequality should be things of the past but meanwhile things like this still uphold them and that needs to end. Grown men watching a show for little girls is actually a step in the right direction, if we'd just be able to admit that what we're watching is indeed meant for little girls. Lauren Faust understood that little girls can and will enjoy well written characters and conflict just like boys do, and that not everything needs to be excessively pink and sugary.

 

Conversely, she also knew that boys would watch a show about magical talking rainbow-colored ponies as long as the characters are well written and things aren't too sugary. If anyone proved that these archaic roles should be a thing of the past it's her.

 

And yet, here we bronies are basically undoing that work by going "Fights! Conflict! These things are not for girls!" (I know, some of us say this ironically. I have, but I've also said it more seriously because I'm an idiot.) It's time we realize that gender roles are a thing of the past. I won't say there are no differences between boys and girls, men and women, but the roles the genders play in society could use a lot of balancing. One thing we can do to help that is by admitting not just to ourselves but to the world at large that, yes, we watch a show about magical cartoon ponies that is meant for little girls, and so what?

 

Seriously, anyone answering that question with, "But that's gay" obviously has a lot of insecurities. I'm not saying I don't, and I've said before that I have tried to fit the show into my own gender role, but I have realized there is no reason to and that it's detrimental to progress when it comes to gender equality.

 

In summary, this show transcends gender roles, now it's time we follow suit. I'm sure Lauren Faust would be happy if we helped promote her cause instead of undermining it.

[baltosaa 86]

Eh, gender roles are pretty idiotic as it gets. They shouldn't exist and people need to just drop it. :/

[Scootaloo90747475 140]

 

On 2/3/2015 at 3:42 AM, KatonRyu said:

I'm absolutely certain I'm one of the cretins who has said something about MLP 'not being for little girls because lasers hurr' at some point in the past, but if I think about it more that's really flawed logic probably stemming from insecurity.

 

I think gender roles and gender inequality should be things of the past but meanwhile things like this still uphold them and that needs to end. Grown men watching a show for little girls is actually a step in the right direction, if we'd just be able to admit that what we're watching is indeed meant for little girls. Lauren Faust understood that little girls can and will enjoy well written characters and conflict just like boys do, and that not everything needs to be excessively pink and sugary.

 

Conversely, she also knew that boys would watch a show about magical talking rainbow-colored ponies as long as the characters are well written and things aren't too sugary. If anyone proved that these archaic roles should be a thing of the past it's her.

 

And yet, here we bronies are basically undoing that work by going "Fights! Conflict! These things are not for girls!" (I know, some of us say this ironically. I have, but I've also said it more seriously because I'm an idiot.) It's time we realize that gender roles are a thing of the past. I won't say there are no differences between boys and girls, men and women, but the roles the genders play in society could use a lot of balancing. One thing we can do to help that is by admitting not just to ourselves but to the world at large that, yes, we watch a show about magical cartoon ponies that is meant for little girls, and so what?

 

Seriously, anyone answering that question with, "But that's gay" obviously has a lot of insecurities. I'm not saying I don't, and I've said before that I have tried to fit the show into my own gender role, but I have realized there is no reason to and that it's detrimental to progress when it comes to gender equality.

 

In summary, this show transcends gender roles, now it's time we follow suit. I'm sure Lauren Faust would be happy if we helped promote her cause instead of undermining it.

I agree  with  you 

[Sonic Shimmer 4,116]

I think gender roles are nonsense overall but maybe that’s just me.

[Kadae 655]

I think nowadays they're certainly becoming less relevant, or at least it feels that way. I hardly think about what someone of my gender would do, I just do the things I like doing! I think for a great many things or interests, you can also go back in history to find that those things or interests that were gendered one way only to have flipped at some point, so it's really all just a bit arbitrary.

[Vefka 1,499]

People just like what they like. I do like violence, blood and boobs in media but it doesn't stop me from watching cute show about ponies