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rainbow rocks Did you forgive Sunset Shimmer?


Shiny

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Listen if you hurt me personally I'll never forgive you, but if mess up, apologize and show your sorry, I'll forgive you in a heartbeat. That's what happened to Sunset, and now she's proven to be a true friend. So to answer your question yes I forgive her.

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Sunset Shimmer: I'm going to make a bunch of people slaves and use them in taking over Equestria! Watch me as I destroy this wall and then use it to kill Twilight and her friends!

 

King Sombra: I'm going to make these ponies my slaves mwahahahahahahahaaaaaa

 

Die King Sombra! Hey let's make Sunset Shimmer our friend even though she tried to kill us and make humans into slaves.

 

 

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I don't forgive this Sunset because this Sunset did nothing wrong. The Elements of Harmony brainwashed her into a completely different person.

 

If I wanna see Sunset redeemed and become a full-fledged character, I want to see Sunset redeemed, not a magical being's version of her.

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I don't forgive this Sunset because this Sunset did nothing wrong. The Elements of Harmony brainwashed her into a completely different person.

 

If I wanna see Sunset redeemed and become a full-fledged character, I want to see Sunset redeemed, not a magical being's version of her.

 

And your proof for that is...?

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And your proof for that is...?

Look how she changed from the quarter-dimensional, mean-girl-in-high-school stereotype to the character she is today and when. The Elements of Harmony not just defeated her, but also completely altered her personality.

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Look how she changed from the quarter-dimensional, mean-girl-in-high-school stereotype to the character she is today and when. The Elements of Harmony not just defeated her, but also completely altered her personality.

 

That's, uh, not proof. That's an assumption. Nowhere in the series does it ever say or even imply that. Perhaps you could consider that she may have changed of her own accord?

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That's, uh, not proof. That's an assumption. Nowhere in the series does it ever say or even imply that. Perhaps you could consider that she may have changed of her own accord?

No, it IS proof. One minute, she was the stereotype willing to conquer Equestria with the dumbest plot I've ever seen in FIM and trying to kill Twilight. The next, her whole personality was completely different. You don't change from one personality to the other within a few seconds. She didn't willingly change her personality there. The Elements of Harmony changed her personality for her.

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No, it IS proof. One minute, she was the stereotype willing to conquer Equestria with the dumbest plot I've ever seen in FIM and trying to kill Twilight. The next, her whole personality was completely different. You don't change from one personality to the other within a few seconds. She didn't willingly change her personality there. The Elements of Harmony changed her personality for her.

 

Rather than assuming that her drastic personality change was a result of the Elements of Harmony brainwashing her... seems more likely that it was a writing gaffe that the writers acknowledged and fixed in Rainbow Rocks, wouldn't you say? Your assumption is that she turned from alpha bitch into sobbing wreck because the Elements replaced her personality with a completely new one, but such a claim holds little to no water because 1. the Elements are never before shown to have the ability to alter memories or personalities, and 2. as I said before, never has it been hinted at that Sunset changed because she was magically forced to. She did so of her own accord.

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Rather than assuming that her drastic personality change was a result of the Elements of Harmony brainwashing her... seems more likely that it was a writing gaffe that the writers acknowledged and fixed in Rainbow Rocks, wouldn't you say?

It's not an assumption that the Elements of Harmony didn't change her when that was one of the Elements' clear-cut actions. The EoH wrapped her body around, sucked out her power, and completely changed her by force. We see her redeemed because the consequences of the EoH are the cause of her change. Her redemption isn't like Starlight's who had to decide what was more worth it, destruction of her own world at the cost of her own bitterness and childhood trauma or a chance to restart. Starlight chose to start over. Villain!Sunset never had that chance. Sunset's redemption's whole backdrop is a blatant character reset.

 

1. the Elements are never before shown to have the ability to alter memories or personalities

Not a good argument. None of them were supposed to turn Sunset into a Diabolus Ex Machina or work without all six physically present and donning them at once, either. There are many reasons why the Elements didn't work on Discord the first time, one being Dash's absence. The World of Pedestria was clear then that Equestrian magic wasn't there. Instead, they applied a Demon from a Machine and a Deus Ex Machina to mold a visually impressive, yet narratively broken climax.

Edited by Dark Qiviut
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I don't forgive this Sunset because this Sunset did nothing wrong. The Elements of Harmony brainwashed her into a completely different person.

 

If I wanna see Sunset redeemed and become a full-fledged character, I want to see Sunset redeemed, not a magical being's version of her.

Look how she changed from the quarter-dimensional, mean-girl-in-high-school stereotype to the character she is today and when. The Elements of Harmony not just defeated her, but also completely altered her personality.

No, it IS proof. One minute, she was the stereotype willing to conquer Equestria with the dumbest plot I've ever seen in FIM and trying to kill Twilight. The next, her whole personality was completely different. You don't change from one personality to the other within a few seconds. She didn't willingly change her personality there. The Elements of Harmony changed her personality for her.

It's not an assumption that the Elements of Harmony didn't change her when that was one of the Elements' clear-cut actions. The EoH wrapped her body around, sucked out her power, and completely changed her by force. We see her redeemed because the consequences of the EoH are the cause of her change. Her redemption isn't like Starlight's who had to decide what was more worth it, destruction of her own world at the cost of her own bitterness and childhood trauma or a chance to restart. Starlight chose to start over. Villain!Sunset never had that chance.

 

Not a good argument. None of the Elements of Harmony were not supposed to turn Sunset into a Diabolus Ex Machina nor work without all six physically present and on them at once, either. There are many reasons why the Elements didn't work on Discord the first time, one being Dash's absence. The World of Pedestria was clear then that magic from Equestria wasn't there. Instead, they applied a Demon from a Machine and a Deus Ex Machina to mold a visually impressive, yet narratively broken climax.

To say the Elements of Harmony brainwashed Sunset is a pretty bold assumption but to say it's true is outright insane. Besides the fact that the show has never been shown to have powers like that. We see her change after wearing the Element of Magic, but it's not impossible to assume that it was her inability to control it along with her ...erm "hate", and then we see her crying as soon after she starts transforming(as if she's in pain and is suddenly regretting putting it on, which isn't hard to see why). I highly, highly doubt the writers ever intended to have them use the Elements of Harmony to brainwash her instead of using it to simply defeat Sunset Satan(which was definitely more plausible). As for her sudden change of heart, it's not hard to buy after seeing her cry during her transformation, though it was definitely more of the result of poor/rushed writing than anything else

 

The mane 6 never used the EoH to brainwash her, never intended, and to not only interpret or assume, but say that it DID happen, is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard

Edited by Santa Megas
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@, It's not insane or ridiculous when her character reset was the direct consequence of the EoH defeating her and, once more, her whole redemption is backed by this one event.

 

BTW, I never said the bearers willingly changed Sunset's personality. I said the objects themselves did.

 

Besides the fact that the show has never been shown to have powers like that.

Once again, bad point to make. The Elements weren't supposed to turn her into a demon or work without all of the Mane Six physically wearing it simultaneously. Consider the fact that EQG was written as a slice-of-life, high-school drama before it became a barrage of magical girl anime tributes.

 

And they did a stretch during the pilot. From growing anger, envy, and bitterness over her sister, Luna transformed into Nightmare Moon, and her whole personality completely changed, too. Like the Chaos Emeralds/Super Sonic to an uncontrollably angry Perfect Chaos from Adventure, the Elements returned Luna to her old personality.

 

Sunset Shimmer didn't show to become the mean-girl stereotype. Through the evidence gathered in EQG1, that was her entire backdrop. Rather than have negative traits corrupting her, she was willingly evil. The EoH never turned her back to normal; they swapped personalities.

 

I highly, highly doubt the writers ever intended to have them use the Elements of Harmony to brainwash her instead of using it to simply defeat Sunset Satan(which was definitely more plausible).

Then why did the climax, Twilight, and Sunset herself address the point by stating that Sunset Shimmer and Demon are one of the same other than the way they looked like?

Sunset Shimmer: … [chuckles evilly] At last! More power than I could ever imagine!
Sunset Shimmer: I've had to jump through so many hoops tonight just to get my hands on this crown, and it really should have been mine all along. [growls] But let's let bygones be bygones. I am your princess now, and you will be loyal... to me!
Twilight Sparkle: … The crown may be upon your head, Sunset Shimmer, but you cannot wield it, because you do not possess the most powerful magic of all: the magic of friendship!
Twilight Sparkle: You will never rule in Equestria. Any power you may have had in this world is gone. Tonight, you've shown everyone who you really are. You've shown them what is in your heart.
Edited by Dark Qiviut
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I doubt the EoH brainwashes people. My headcanon is that it acts as a a way to calm the person, to make them see the error of their ways and to help a person choose a better way. While Sunset Shimmer's redemption was badly done in the first movie, in the second film she clearly wanted the others to forgive her for her past ways. Based on what has happend in Rainbow Rocks and in Friendship Games, I think she has done more than enough to earn her redemption.

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@, It's not insane or ridiculous when her character reset was the direct consequence of the EoH defeating her and, once more, her whole redemption is backed by this one event.

It's hardly a character reset when we still see bits of her old self still lingering in the next two movies(notably when she rips into Sci-Twi in Friendship Games)

 

And I still doubt her wanting forgiveness(which btw, she actually had to earn), was the result brainwashing, which is still an assumption and nothing more

 

 

 

Once again, bad point to make. The Elements weren't supposed to turn her into a demon or work without all of the Mane Six physically wearing it simultaneously. Consider the fact that EQG was written as a slice-of-life, high-school drama before it became a barrage of magical girl anime tributes

 

You still have to take into account what the writers intentions were, which again, I undoubtedly believe has jackshit to do with brainwashing. They just wanted her to change and knowing the kind of show, used the EoH for some bullshit like "getting rid of the hate in her heart" which was that and nothing more

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It's hardly a character reset when we still see bits of her old self still lingering in the next two movies(notably when she rips into Sci-Twi in Friendship Games)

I have to disagree. Even when parts of her old personality were still there, it's still conquered by her reset personality. And I'll admit, Sunset fuming at Sci-Twi was one of the better parts of Friendship Games because parts of her old character indeed returned. (Nonetheless, a shame it was partially ruined because they had to participate in motocross, which is way too dangerous for a school-vs.-school competition and shouldn't be visually portrayed as cool-looking.)

 

 

 

And I still doubt her wanting forgiveness(which btw, she actually had to earn), was the result brainwashing, which is still an assumption and nothing more

Once more, the Sunset who had to earn her forgiveness wasn't the old Sunset. That character is replaced in favor of a magical figure's lobotomized version of her. If I want to see Sunset redeemed, I want to see her redeemed.

 

 

 

You still have to take into account what the writers intentions were, which again, I undoubtedly believe has jackshit to do with brainwashing. They just wanted her to change and knowing the kind of show, used the EoH for some bullshit like "getting rid of the hate in her heart" which was that and nothing more

If that's truly the case, then I don't see it, 'cause that's not what the climax and resolution showed. There's a difference between what they're trying to say and what they're saying. Intent doesn't equate result.

 

 

 

My headcanon is that it acts as a a way to calm the person, to make them see the error of their ways and to help a person choose a better way.

Like what I wrote in an earlier post, that applies very well to Luna, whose emotions corrupted her. This doesn't work to Shimmer, who was controlling, cold, relaxed, manipulative, and calculative from the start.

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It's not an assumption that the Elements of Harmony didn't change her when that was one of the Elements' clear-cut actions. The EoH wrapped her body around, sucked out her power, and completely changed her by force. We see her redeemed because the consequences of the EoH are the cause of her change. Her redemption isn't like Starlight's who had to decide what was more worth it, destruction of her own world at the cost of her own bitterness and childhood trauma or a chance to restart. Starlight chose to start over. Villain!Sunset never had that chance. Sunset's redemption's whole backdrop is a blatant character reset.

 

It seems to me as though you're taking her poorly written personality change as something else entirely. It's true that Sunset turning from an asshole to a nice girl is quite a bit unrealistic and rather abrupt, and it appears that you presented the explanation of the Elements brainwashing Sunset in order to patch up that flaw. However, that explanation is largely unsupported by any sort of canon, which means that, by definition, it's a headcanon. A headcanon is how you personally interpret a scene, a situation, or a character. Thus, it isn't what truly occurred in the movie and its continuity.

 

Ask yourself: do you truly believe that the writers intended for us to interpret the scene as Sunset's old self being replaced with a completely new person? By force? Through brainwashing? Is that really it? Would the show preach such a lesson—that in order for people to change, you need to literally coerce them through a method of that caliber? You said intent doesn't equate result... but the result itself does not show what you're claiming it shows. 

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If that's truly the case, then I don't see it, 'cause that's not what the climax and resolution showed. There's a difference between what they're trying to say and what they're saying. Intent doesn't equate result.

I understand that many times Intent doesn't equate result but to see the result as extreme as brainwashing is an incredibly unfair and insane assumption, especially since your normally quick to simply call this out as poor writing than anything

 

 

 

(Nonetheless, a shame it was partially ruined because they had to participate in motocross, which is way too dangerous for a school-vs.-school competition and shouldn't be visually portrayed as cool-looking.)

That seems like a silly thing to get upset over. Lets face it the glorification of Motocross isn't uncommon in children's media, and it's not exactly uncommon for kids to participate in motocross 

Edited by Santa Megas
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It seems to me as though you're taking her poorly written personality change as something else entirely. It's true that Sunset turning from an asshole to a nice girl is quite a bit unrealistic and rather abrupt, and it appears that you presented the explanation of the Elements brainwashing Sunset in order to patch up that flaw. However, that explanation is largely unsupported by any sort of canon, which means that, by definition, it's a headcanon. A headcanon is how you personally interpret a scene, a situation, or a character. Thus, it isn't what truly occurred in the movie and its continuity.

I know what headcanon is, and what happened in the climax isn't headcanon. If Sunset elected to change before the Elements fired that beam of friendship on her, then I'd buy that. But we're never shown at any point during the beam that Sunset chose to change her ways. The Sunset before the beam and the Sunset after aren't one of the same. I can't accept the possible reasons given because that's not what the visuals show. The Elements of Harmony forced that change and directly affected her character from here on out.

 

Ask yourself: do you truly believe that the writers intended for us to interpret the scene as Sunset's old self being replaced with a completely new person? By force? Through brainwashing? Is that really it? Would the show preach such a lesson—that in order for people to change, you need to literally coerce them through a method of that caliber?

No, I don't believe they were trying to show that. But once more, intent doesn't equate result. Yet at the same time, if others believe they did, I can't blame them. This whole generation has a history of unfortunate implications, and Sunset's character reset in EQG1 is one of them. Across media, they have royally screwed up on morals before, including:

  1. One Bad Apple: The CMCs directly state that by trying to defend themselves, they look as bad as a bully. The script implicates that Babs's history makes up for her evil, when it only makes her look more evil because of her experience with bullies back home. Then Applejack presents a one-size-fits-all solution to bullying by stating that the bullying would end if they just told her, when bullying is way more complicated that, and sometimes the parents ignore the bullying or are the bullies themselves.
  2. Somepony to Watch Over Me: Applejack realized that by Apple Bloom being able to hike on her own through really dangerous terrain that she can fend for herself. Wrong. AB nearly getting herself killed is a very good reason for AJ to attempt to baby-proof the house and go all Swarm of the Century on her.
  3. In the Fluttershy comic, the moral directly states that you should ignore criticism and instead just look up at your friends for encouragement. Criticism isn't something everyone will take well. But there are two big problems. One: Praiser Pan is a straw man with dumb criticism, and he's a stereotype of critics. Secondly, criticism isn't something done to inflate your ego, it's to make others better; if Fluttershy's sculpture was poorly crafted, the moral and whole plot make no sense. In good critiques, they're critiquing your work, not you personally. The moral was trying to say that criticism shouldn't deter you from your passion, but the wording completely changes the perception.
  4. Owl's Well uses a jealousy story, and Twilight explains that she needs Owlowiscious for nighttime work. But that explanation fails because most of the show is in the daytime. Because her explanation fails, the moral of not feeling jealous rings hollow, too.
  5. The moral of What About Discord is to not suppress your feelings. If you have to express them, don't bottle them up. Say them. Why doesn't this work? One: Twilight was written to be the bad guy when she has every right not to trust him. Two: Discord later admits that he purposely didn't invite Twilight just to be a jerk. By consequence, he validates her distrust over him and discredits the moral she learned.
That seems like a silly thing to get upset over. Lets face it the glorification of Motocross isn't uncommon in children's media, and it's not exactly uncommon for kids to participate in motocross

I can't see that as silly at all, whether it's common or not. Motocross is a sport that requires extensive practice, a license to drive those bikes, and a lot of safety procedures. Kids shouldn't participate in an important and dangerous event blindly: One bad jump can paralyze or kill you. Any civilized parent would've sued CHS and Crystal Prep for even thinking of attempting this. If they want to show me motocross, please treat the extreme sport with the respect it deserves.

Edited by Dark Qiviut
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DQ, did you happen to consider that Sunset made a drastic change after exposure to the Elements because she effectively had an epiphany by their hand, even if a poorly written one? Being blasted by the Elements of Harmony could very well have prompted a drastic change in perspective, that is, she realized that she had, like Venom Snake, become a demon -- whereas beforehand she was obsessed with the power she desired and later had received. One of the key attributes of the Elements of Harmony is their potential to grant insight (as seemed to be the case with Twilight in the series opener) or remove the evil shrouding one's vision long enough to regain emotional balance (as was the case with Luna).

 

The evil in Sunset's heart was hers. On that point I think we can agree. However, the show demonstrates the potential for normally mundane, albeit dangerous, faults (like jealousy or greed) can and do snowball into manifestations on a cosmic scale. See Night Mare Moon, the Tantabus, Spike's dragon greed, the Windigos, and Discord's reemergence. So conflicts that might otherwise be resolved through conventional means (e.g., therapy) require supernatural solutions, like the Elements of Harmony, because they escalated into supernatural problems.

 

I'm not defending the climax or its resolution, both of which were clumsily and hastily written. But asserting that the Elements brainwashed Sunset is exactly that: an assertion. Sunset's alteration has more to do with poor writing than an in-canon attempt to infer, "The Elements will destroy your identity." The implication, if anything, is that Sunset was never wholly evil at her core; we were witness to the end results, within the movie, which depicted Sunset as an irredeemable alpha bitch. Once that infestation was cleansed, so to speak, Sunset proved to be a very different person. It was rehabilitation on steroids.

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