Queen Chrysalis: Truly evil or just misunderstood?

[Jokuc 8,174]

  On 2012-04-29 at 10:41 PM, 'AmateurFish07' said:

Still chrysalis Discord was by far the best villain in the MLP series.

 

I fixed your post.

[AmateurFish07 16]

  On 2012-04-29 at 10:48 PM, 'Jokuc' said:

I fixed your post.

 

Well, Discord's voice and personality was great I think, but Chrysalis's appearence was awesome too.

[Proctra Music 335]

  On 2012-04-29 at 10:47 PM, 'Jokuc' said:

Well I think she is 110% evil.

 

Agreed, all of her actions were greed filt. Stealing a wedding, especially from such a well hearted pony is just pure 110% evail.

[Inkfeather 597]

It's great to see the discussion blooming in the right direction, I see my intentions with the thread was a success. It's amazing to see so many ideals, so many theories on this matter and it's very interesting to read the posts such as the one made by EASA.

 

Kudos to you my friend, for helping the discussion flow both ways and for making amazing scientific standpoints in your text. Your post have made me think alot about this matter, but even though I get your points and I can truly see what you mean by the facts you present, I still prefer to believe in the good of everyone, even in Discord, NMM, Trixie, Gilda all the other "villains" we've had throughout the series, I've never believed any of them to be truly evil.

 

 

But again, this is just a personal opinion, what I prefer to believe. What I actually wanted to do with this post was to thank all the people who conribute nicely to this whole discussion.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Inkfeather

[Comet Tail 808]

  On 2012-04-30 at 7:34 AM, 'Inkfeather' said:

It's great to see the discussion blooming in the right direction, I see my intentions with the thread was a success. It's amazing to see so many ideals, so many theories on this matter and it's very interesting to read the posts such as the one made by EASA.

 

Kudos to you my friend, for helping the discussion flow both ways and for making amazing scientific standpoints in your text. Your post have made me think alot about this matter, but even though I get your points and I can truly see what you mean by the facts you present, I still prefer to believe in the good of everyone, even in Discord, NMM, Trixie, Gilda all the other "villains" we've had throughout the series, I've never believed any of them to be truly evil.

 

 

But again, this is just a personal opinion, what I prefer to believe. What I actually wanted to do with this post was to thank all the people who conribute nicely to this whole discussion.

 

Haha, here I go making things complicated again;

What do you mean by "truly evil"?

 

I think there is such thing as people who are truly, psychotically evil, and just love to cause pain and suffering, probably as a sort of show/display of power (though they're really incredibly, incredibly rare, especially in a civilized society that doesn't foster that kind of personality. You'd probably find more of these people in places like Somalia that does foster that, though) We haven't seen any of those, to be sure. A benign monarch/dictatorship is by far the best form of government, and Celestia is incredibly wise, gentle, and benign, yet not afraid to defend her kingdom with her own life (she didn't run off and send the army, didn't order the royal guard, no SHE personally attacked Chrysalis!), and, an absolute necessity for this form of government; she's immortal, or at least close to it, so no corruptable or evil pony to inherit the throne.

 

And even when one monarch did become corrupt, she managed to remove the threat, amazingly enough, without killing her (banishing her to the moon), just a further show of her wisdom, altruism, and power, ultimately with a plot, so it would seem, to use deep magic to have her turn back.

(What do you call a monarchy with two rulers? A diarchy? biarchy?)

 

But Discord was just enjoying himself, no matter how much pain it caused others. He turned the mane 6 against eachother, and threw Twilight into a horrible depression, all for his own amusement. I think it's fair to say that that can be called "truly evil".

 

As for Chrysalis, I think we'd have to know more about how the feeding works to make a call. If she was really just trying to get her people to survive, then I'm not sure how evil I would call it. Certainly not innocent, though, after all, she was relishing in and just loving all the destruction and pain she was causing.

 

I think, though, that because love isn't a physical thing that can fill stomachs, that it just "feeds" their magical abilities, as we saw that the more powerful the love she fed on was, the more powerful her magic was. You don't need magic to survive. If you watch how she explains and talks about the power and things, it just sounds like she was obsessed with becoming powerful, more than the survival of her species.

 

As for other antagonists, I've explained what I think about Gilda, and certainly the makers of the show do a wonderful job with not polarizing all the episodes. I mean, look at episode 8, who's the protagonist and antagonist, there? Viewpoint pony appears to be Twilight, but who can even be said to be the bad guy girl pony, there?

 

(An aside; I love this for one reason, and that is that there really are no "villains", but like IRL, the true evils are intangible ideas, ignorance, selfishness, and weakness. In ep.8 we see selfishness (as a lack of altruistic love) and weakness in them being unwilling/unable to get past themselves and care for eachother instead of criticizing, and ignorance in not being able to understand eachother).

 

Sometimes, though, it's quiet clear who the antagonist is, but they're not a bad pony. I think just about every pony has served as an antagonist in some way in the series. Heck, all 5 of them were antagonists when they ignored Twilight's distress in "Lesson Zero". Pinkie was especially an antagonist to, heck, to herself and all the others in "Party of One". Rainbow Dash has even been mean, towards Fluttershy in "Dragonshy", yet was extremely supportive of her in "Hurricane Fluttershy". Or look at Fluttershy in "Iron Will", she was the antagonist and the protagonist. And what about Iron Will? Was he even bad, or good?

 

I mean, wow, not to get off-topic, but this is really making me discover part of why this show is so awesome. I mean, how many shows can boast that level of complexity, depth, and truth to reality? And that's just two episodes. Try "Secret of My Excess", or "Feeling Pinkie Keen", or "Cutie Mark Chronicles". I can't help but wonder, once again, how the heck they come up with these ideas? Show me how! lol.

[Inkfeather 597]

  On 2012-05-01 at 6:36 AM, 'EASA - Matt' said:

-snip-

 

Let's take this from one end to the other. *cracks fingers*

 

The term of being "truly evil" is something I would interpret when someone hurts other, for the joy of seeing them suffer. They do it regardless of the feeling of their victims and they do it for no other reward that to please oneself. Discord, as you brought up yourself, was someone I would see as "truly evil" for the same reason as the one you posted. He had no greater motive other than to have fun, which is something he achieved by hurting other, maybe not directly but he still brought despair to the lices of many ponies just for his own amusement.

 

This is what I would call being evil. When you act mean towards one or more individuals with no other goals than the one of your own amusement and joy.

 

 

About the feeding system of the changelings, the only reason we interpret eating as being something physical is because that's the way we convert different materials to energy and resources in out body. My bet would be that the changelings use the consumed magic/love as an energy resource from which they use the energy as we would use the energy of the food we have consumed. I think, as she said that they needed to feed, that this was her intentions and the reason she wanted to "take over" Equestria was to preserve their source of "food". I don't think they ever had any intentions of hurting the ponies, but that they simply used the only method they knew to acquire this magical energy.

 

About my theory of Chrysalis wanting more is because of my interpretations of the song "This Day Aria" simply because I hear her singing not only against the real cadence, but also making double standards against herself. It often sounds like she's trying to disprove herself on the matter of wanting love for the love rather than the energy.

 

I believe the reason she was "enjoying" doing this may have been for several reason. She might have grown power hungry after defeating Celestia, as any other would in a ruse of ecstacy, they would enjoy it. It could also be from the fact that her plan of survival were working out very well, she saw how her species were acquiring this much needed magic of love for their survival.

 

I don't think every story needs an antogonist, and calling the rest of the Mane 6 antagonists in episodes such as Lesson Zero is a bit much in my own opinion. Twilight was troubled, she was definitely the pony in focus, the protagonist without doubt, but she was not up against the rest of the Mane 6, they were not the evil ponies in this episode. If we HAD to name an antagonist of this episode, I believe it would be Twilight herself, because she's the one getting herself overworked on this, she's the one trying aimlessly to find a shortcut by creating a problem, hence being the "bad pony".

 

In the episode of Iron Will, I believe Fluttershy was the Protagonist and with the help of the semi-antagonist Iron Will, he created the bridge for Fluttershy to become the real antagonist of the story. The protagonist seeks help, but instead of getting the help she needed she's turned in the wrong direction and thereby becoming the antagonist against her own will. This is why Iron Will should be considered the true antagonist on this episode because he was the cause of Fluttershy's change.

 

  Quote

I mean, wow, not to get off-topic, but this is really making me discover part of why this show is so awesome. I mean, how many shows can boast that level of complexity, depth, and truth to reality? And that's just two episodes. Try "Secret of My Excess", or "Feeling Pinkie Keen", or "Cutie Mark Chronicles". I can't help but wonder, once again, how the heck they come up with these ideas? Show me how! lol.

I know right? It's wonderful to see the complexity at work, but think of this: They're more than one writer and when people can discuss various ideas for episodes then it will always create more ideas, new and more intriguing ideas as they bounce these ideas between eachother. It's easily learned, just find something you do, then find someone who does the same, then do this, together.

 

I wrote a pony poem with Neikos once, where we wrote one line each. When we had set the first 3 lines we had the story, together.

After that it simply flowed, we knew exactly where we were going without barely trying to come up with an idea.

[Doctor Whooves™ 332]

  On 2012-04-28 at 3:02 PM, 'Inkfeather' said:

Alright, here we go again.

 

A theory I’ve come up with from too much overthinking the episode and listening to “This Day Aria” on repeat is that Queen Chrysalis is not as evil as the episode makes her out to be. This theory is based on a lot of personal interpretations from the actual song and some of the things in the episode.

I would like to start by saying; we know only that Chrysalis intended to invade Equestria to feed her subjects, the changelings. This is an act of survival, and an act of selflessness because she was actually in the front line and the one at risk through the entire episode. We see that she only wants her race to survive, since she clearly says that they needed to feed on love, and seeing how they hungers for it, they must’ve been starving.

 

In the song, I feel that Chrysalis is not only singing against the real Cadence at the time, but also against herself. Her part of the lyrics can easily be interpreted to contain two actual opinions on the matter. She sings that she have been looking forward to “this day” since she was small, a thing we can interpret as that she’s not only doing this to feed on love, but also because she have a personal dream of marriage, as is often the dream of a princess, the title you have before becoming a queen.

She sings that she wants him to be all hers as well as she want them to be together. This would seem like she actually wish for love, but have no other means to get it other than through her evil means. She is a rather awkward species, and we see that she’s the only true intelligent being amongst the changelings we meet.

 

“Finally the moment has arrived

For me to be one lucky bride”

 

This was what triggered my initial thoughts on this theory, she actually sings this. That she’s going to be a lucky bride. This is what I see as the proof of her dreaming about marriage since she was small, since she was an innocent little princess. I believe that she have been brought up to have the evil opinion she have, since all princesses must’ve had parents. I think she was taught to be evil and therefore proceeds to fulfill her wishes through the only means she have been taught.

 

As we see, she doesn’t harm the mane six when she captures them, she actually didn’t wish to hurt anypony, she just wanted to have love. All she did was trap what was standing in her way of the love she thought she could gain by fake means. I presume that if one were to give Chrysalis real love, if someone loved her for who she was and “fed” her natural love, she would have no reason to be evil, since the only reason she was evil to begin with was to acquire love for herself and the other changelings.

 

She ends her son with “Mine, all mine” another thing that can easily be interpreted as her wish to have the source of love all for herself, and the reason she acts as evil as she does could be from jealousy towards the couple who felt immeasurable love for each other. If Chrysalis was to find love of her own, I personally think she would have no further reason to act as she did in this episode and she would retreat to being a more tolerable pony/changeling.

 

Curses! You beat me to it!

[Poison Truffle 1]

Ultimately, I think that we don't have enough information yet. For example, how long can changelings go without love, and what happens if they don't have it. Chrysalis likens in to food, whereas Cadenza just says that they consume it to get stronger. It made me wonder, among other things, if Changelings need it to use/increase their powers, rather then to survive. But even if they do, I still would classify her as evil for her methods, as their needlessly cruel. Actually, I really don't understand what the plan was.

 

I've seen some people point out that making the threat was counterproductive, since it led to the shield in the first place, and theorizing that she might have just taken advantage of someone else's threat. Personally I think that she made it, as it led to Shining Armor, who is a master of defensive magic and so may have been able to shrug off the mind control normally, to be at a weaker state. It also put Celestia and Luna on constant vigil, wearing them down for days so that, even if Shining Armor's love wasn't as strong as Chrysalis thought, she'd still have the advantage in a fight. But I don't understand why she'd take over Canterlot. We've seen nothing about Changelings being able to extract love, they have to receive it willingly, so what benefit comes from capturing everyone? The only thing that makes sense to me, is that they were trying to establish a capital. We know that she plans to take over all of Equestria, and a base would be useful, but that just goes in more with my theory that these changelings are lazy.

 

In my mind, there are overall three kinds of changelings. The first would copy a pony's appearance, but create their own identity with it, go somewhere else, and earn their own love. Of course, depending on how long they can go without it, they may need to act as a "migratory" changeling for a while. That's the second type. This one would, for example, go into a mall where a couple is, and wait for one to leave. Then they'd walk up to the pony as their loved one, chat a bit, feed off enough to get through the day, and then leave, the two probably being a bit confused when the real one gets back, but no harm done. As far as we know, a substantial chunk of ponyville could be either of these type of changelings without it ever affecting the series. They could go public, but I assume most are either scared of the reaction, or just don't see any need to.

 

And that gets us into Chrysalis' changelings. Of course they could also be from somewhere outside Equestria, based on one comment, and so the only changelings, but either way both of the above would be options for ways they could live. And even if we go with the predator/prey relationship discussed, they go past it. A good example is with some vampires. Biting a single person every few nights to survive, the human won't like that very much, but it's how you survive. Rounding up all of humanity and putting them into farms to exist only as sources of blood, that is evil. Once again, I don't understand what the plan was, but based off capturing everypony, that's probably along the lines of what they had in mind. Feeding off pony's love doesn't make her evil, and trying to take over Equestria doesn't really make her evil either (afterall, Celestia and Luna took it from Discord), it's how she goes about it, and what kind of world she intends to make, and both seem to be needlessly cruel.

[FlutterGoth 5]

I don't belive in complete evil and i personally aggre with that i don't think that Chrysalis is evil. In fact, i was instead fascinated by her och could even sympathize with her. Her song was also what made my opinion on her, and it even ended up being one of my favorite songs (if not my number one favorite) in the entire mlp fim series. She is a villain and she does villainious things, but i see her as more of a anti-villain or a tragic villain rather than an evil villain doing evil things just for the sake of doing evil. I think she's alot deeper than that.

 

She seems to just want love.

Edited May 2, 2012 by FlutterGoth

[Sir Cyborg 26]

Reply to OP:

Since when did people become good or evil? The part where you said she was "teached" to be evil, isn't that how it always is? You don't learn things on your own, and how silly it may sound, you just don't come up with opinions on your own. People in your vicinity, especially in your early years form a large part of your personality. Both directly ind indirectly.

 

So I see it like this: Changelings feed on ponies. Humans feed on pigs.

Of course you could argue that our way is more "humane" in that we don't wipe out the entire species, but we do that out of rationallity rather than kindness. If we keep pigs alive we can eat more pigs later.

Oh, and I'm not a vegetarian. I love meat.... mm... yummy.

 

Edit: But in the world of fiction: Yes. She was evil, and she had more going on than just the survival of her race.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Sir Cyborg

[Dave247 568]

I love discussions like these because they make me think of things I wouldn't normally consider myself.

 

I think that not enough character development has been done yet for us to be able to truly understand her motives, intentions and thoughts behind what she did. To me it looks like the perfect opportunity to bring her back at some point as she has a lot to offer to the show story wise.

 

Because not much has been established her motives can be questioned and that leaves it open that she could still be a good character and the possibility for her to be redeemed. I personally like it when Villains are like this because it proves they are not truly evil and you become able to relate to them on a level. It also ends the story on a happy high note which is something that would be good for a show like this so I see there to be a good possibility of it happening.

[Crystal Sparkle 344]

Another option: Maybe she was just bored?

[Cutie 41]

I'm willing to have an open mind that she might be misunderstood. Although her actions do point toward being evil, it'd be really amazing for there to be an episode about Queen Chrysalis and her changelings being accepted by the ponies.

[BlackWater 53]

  On 2012-05-08 at 12:56 AM, 'HayleyShy' said:

I'm willing to have an open mind that she might be misunderstood. Although her actions do point toward being evil, it'd be really amazing for there to be an episode about Queen Chrysalis and her changelings being accepted by the ponies.

 

The power of friendship: turning mortal enemies into faithful allies. Needs to happen.

[Yellow Diamond 7,575]

I don't buy the argument that Chrysalis is misunderstood. She and the Changelings are effectively parasites, so the best argument you could make is that it is not about her being malevolent but rather about trying to survive. The Changelings feed off love and emotions, however, which is strikingly similar to vampires and other creatures of that ilk. Furthermore, Chrysalis deliberately took steps to cause distress for the ponies. She knew full well what she was doing when she trapped Cadance and, later, Twilight inside the caverns. When you taunt your would be enemy after leaving them to die within forgotten underground caves, you tend to earn the big badge of evil.

 

"This Day Aria" does not exonerate Chrysalis, either. Her lines about dreaming about the day of the wedding had a sardonic edge; she appeared disinterested in becoming a bride and increasingly confident that her plot to fool everyone and overwhelm Canterlot would succeed. As her plan was to feed on the love of ponies, tricking them all into believing it was a genuine wedding would make the event the prime time to leech on their emotional energies. In short, Chrysalis was pleased that her plans were progressing without error, not that she truly desired to have her own wedding day.

 

Chrysalis was unambiguously evil.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Thereisnospoon303

[Strider Hiryu 116]

Misunderstood. What loin cares about the zebra it ate?

[Yellow Diamond 7,575]

  On 2012-05-08 at 1:49 AM, 'Strider Hiryu' said:

Misunderstood. What loin cares about the zebra it ate?

 

Lions don't normally take pleasure in social and emotional manipulation, though.

[Strider Hiryu 116]

  On 2012-05-08 at 3:23 AM, 'Thereisnospoon303' said:

Lions don't normally take pleasure in social and emotional manipulation, though.

 

Not to be mean, but how do you know that she takes pleasure in that, rather than being happy about feeding her race who's only source of food is love. I enjoy a sandwich, even though I know the meat is from a pig, and if pigs could talk, they would say that I'm evil. It's the same, but one is harder to get.

[Rainbow Dashin' 107]

I wouldn't say that she's evil..just doing what she needs to help her race to survive. :/

[Strider Hiryu 116]

Also, even if she was really trying to take over the country, were did we get these countries? I bet the native Americans thought we were evil when we went to there land and took it over, but was every man fighting for new opportunity a demon spawn?

[Batbrony 16,056]

Hmmm... an interesting theory, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. Chrysalis struck me as simply a pretty nasty, malicious, ill-intentioned, and evil character, and, well, that's that. Nothing else to it.

 

Well, maybe I'm being a little unfair... say Chrysalis, ya wanna be friends?

 

...

Ummm, is that a yes, or a no... I mean, uh... you're smiling I see, but, IDK, I'm just not getting very good vibes from that whole look. The green flames of death and destruction are just a bit questionable as well. I guess I just have to ask myself, are you somepony that I want to associate with?

Hmmm... I'm gonna go out on a limb and say.... no, I don't think that it would be a good idea to try and be friends with you, you strike me as a somewhat shady character. What do you think Princess?

http://mlpforums.com/public/style_emoticons/default/dry.png Why do I even bother? http://mlpforums.com/public/style_emoticons/default/dry.png

Edited May 8, 2012 by Batbrony

[Yellow Diamond 7,575]

  On 2012-05-08 at 4:55 AM, 'Strider Hiryu' said:

Not to be mean, but how do you know that she takes pleasure in that, rather than being happy about feeding her race who's only source of food is love. I enjoy a sandwich, even though I know the meat is from a pig, and if pigs could talk, they would say that I'm evil. It's the same, but one is harder to get.

 

Because she took the time to taunt Twilight about deceiving everypony into thinking she was Cadance. To take your own comparison, it would be like taunting the trapped pig you knew you were about to eat. There is no inherent need to do so. Furthermore it shows a developed sense of consequences and moral decision making, since you recognize the peril of the situation for the subject.

 

If Chrysalis were interested only in feeding herself and the Changelings, I am certain her tone would have been vastly different.

[Strider Hiryu 116]

I see what you are saying, and it makes perfect sence. But, twilight did try to stop her from feeding to them. To use your example, I would also attack the pig if the pig is stopping me from eating the good looking cow. Also, the changlings my have a different culture than us.

 

P.s.: why are we arguing? We are both intitled to our opinons.

P.p.s.: this was on a phone, so sorry for errors.

[Yellow Diamond 7,575]

  On 2012-05-08 at 9:32 PM, 'Strider Hiryu' said:

I see what you are saying, and it makes perfect sence. But, twilight did try to stop her from feeding to them. To use your example, I would also attack the pig if the pig is stopping me from eating the good looking cow. Also, the changlings my have a different culture than us.

 

P.s.: why are we arguing? We are both intitled to our opinons.

P.p.s.: this was on a phone, so sorry for errors.

 

There's a difference between healthy debate and simply arguing about the topic for drill.

 

Nevertheless, for me it comes down to Chrysalis's behavior throughout the entire finale. How can it be described as anything but malevolent? When I watch her interact with other characters and lord over them when she is on the cusp of victory, I don't get the impression those are merely part of basic survival instincts. The example involving killing the pig which is preventing you from eating the cow is beginning to stretch the suitability of the scenario to its limit. Once more, if you trapped an animal to the point where it is effectively hepless, and began to tease and abuse it, that is unequivocally malicious.

[Inkfeather 597]

It's nice to see the discussion going so well!

 

Thereisnospoon, I completely see the points that you make, and of course it would make the most sense if she was just considered ouright evil, however because of personal opinions and the lack of a direct proof, I prefer to believe in the facts that be interpret as her being somehwat of a misunderstood character, since I want to believe in the good of everypony. I would love to see her as a good character of some sort, or maybe be used in a future episode to tackle some lesson they couldn't teach without having to befriend old enemies.

 

The overall reason why I make these theories is becuase of the debate mateiral possible and because I like to believe that everyone is good to some degree. Chrysalis would be an all aorund more interesting character if one were to consider her as misunderstood, meaning alot of fanon ideas can be created from the concept and a lot of actual creativity can spawn.

 

If one were to state her as outright evil, it would destory the opportunity of a debate such as this, and because this is a show with a limited background story and lore overall, it's easy to make wild interpretations as this one, which I love doing.

 

The main reason the thought of her being good occured to me was because of my imagination since I quickly saw her in a ship fiction idea of mine as a misunderstood character. I afterwards made some research to see what material I could dig up from the song and the series to prove this idea of mine and create an actyal concept for Chrysalis instead of a wild idea.

 

Overall, I'm glad the discussion is going this well.