S07:E14 - Fame and Misfortune

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

1 hour ago, JH24 said:

The ponies outside were a kind of reflection (or at least of some elements) of the MLP fandom in real life. As long as the MLP series exists, there will always be these kind of discussions or groups within the fandom. It's something that won't end and can't be solved anytime soon, and I think that's what they were going for in this episode.

If those ponies stop arguing after Twilight sang that song and listen to her, i would give that episode an 6/10 instead of 8/10, that my problem of "A Times They are Changeling": Everything can be solved by a song, NOPE, i am glad that they dont pull that crap in this episode, that's not how you can stop the toxic, even Mlp cant. The Ending is a bitter sweet ending and i like it, Mane 6 failed to spread their friendship to people miserably, but seeing two fillies learned their friendship lessons and become good friends made them happy and that's enough for the day (remind me of one character who want to save the world (not the right way) and failed miserably, but when everything is fucked up, he saved one person and that is his most happiness moment until he died).

 

13 minutes ago, Truffles said:

I guess being in on the joke is more important than having to stand on the sidelines just watching for me. 

I think just give that guy a rest, he will have a lot of things to do in the next episode, maybe another his paranoid episode  

[Will Guide 21,360]

1 hour ago, SparklingSwirls said:

What a weird ending. To me it felt as though the episode would have been better off if it ended with the lesson taught in the song. The other ponies could gradually start to realize that the main characters aren't perfect and that they're just trying the best they can. It's okay if Fluttershy isn't always assertive, it's okay if Rarity is too whiny sometimes, etc. 

I didn't like that the episode ended without really solving the problem. I sorta got the feeling of "let's try to wrap it up with the song, oh wait we still have some time left so let's add in something else". I'm sure that's not how it was planned but the direction was just a bit off.

Actually, the mob represents the unpleaseable fanbase. No matter what you do, there will always be people who are never satisfied!

At least, the Mane 6 know their lessons help some ponies like those little fillies. (As well as me when I fantasize about talking to them as Unicorn Will Guide)

[Hierok 11,831]

7 minutes ago, Steve Piranha said:

Surprisingly, this episode is getting lots of love. I've expected more freak outs

Guess the rabid fans are really minority 

It was a great episode, so I expected nothing less. 

[Castle Bleck 19,350]

19 minutes ago, Truffles said:

You and @Dark Qiviut hit the nail on the head with the journal fans: They're cutouts and don't seem like realistic portrayals of the real fandom. In fact, they're so one-note they reminded me of another mob of ponies who acted stupid and wouldn't leave a little dragon alone while he tried to do his job of allowing a certain princess some time to rest... <_<

 

Actually, I didn't care about who they represented; the chronic @$$holishness of the characters themselves just got on my nerves.

[Jeric 46,851]

5 minutes ago, Truffles said:

They're cutouts and don't seem like realistic portrayals of the real fandom.

I wouldn't go that far. Obviously when pressed for time they can't delve into the complexity of each individual fan representation, but what they can do, and what they did do, is take an accurate snapshot of things fans have done or said that have perplexed the staff over the years.

Much if what we saw is accurate. The mare that screamed that they were entitled to know is taken directly from Jim Miller's Twitter page. It's one of the things that has caused him to rant in the past. 

More personally, when I was at BABSCon in 2016, I stood in line to get GM Berrow to sign Rarity and the Curious Case of Charity. I briefly explained that I just missed  getting it signed the prior year so it's been  a year in the making so  to speak. As she signed it and was writing a little message she asked me what I thought of the book. I sheepishly admitted I hadn't read it. Berrow gave me a puzzled look. It is odd to have an author sign  something you haven't even enjoyed. My daughter just shook her head at the time, and when we saw that scene unfold yesterday she made it a point to remind me of that moment. 

This wasn't an episode that was supposed to address all aspects of the fandom to provide a balanced perspective, it was a platform to touch on the more perplexing moments that the staff have experienced over the years. And I'm honestly fine with that. 

[KH7672 1,604]

So I just watched it again just to pay more attention to Toola Roola and Coconut Cream as they were the solution and honestly it works so much better than I thought. Looking at this mob forming outside they weren't apart of it's actually not just blind haters and overly passionate ponies. If you look they are actually argueing with each other. Not everypony hates Rarity or Fluttershy (there actually is a great moment when a Fluttershy fan sulks away when that pugdy yellow mare criticizes her). It really is showing both sides are present but obviously one side is going to be louder than the other. There's no problem with over analysis or looking real deep at a lesson, it's about taking your stance and bashing it into those that oppose it (whether it's the source or other fans) which exactly what happens here but not what happens on these forum where the over analysis is meant for discussion and presenting opinions.

Oh and for those that still think turning on Rarity or Fluttershy just like that after knowing them for years and just from gaining a little more insight insight into how they lived their life with their flaws is unrealistic.....I've got one name for you:

ILoveKimPossibleALot

(if you don't know look it up but you may not like what you find).

[Castle Bleck 19,350]

Just now, KH7672 said:

ILoveKimPossibleALot

 

Her?

 

Trust me -- I know all about that controversy, yet I still enjoy her stuff.

 

It helps that she gave a genuine-sounding apology and seems to have gone out of her way to avoid a repeat.

[KH7672 1,604]

Just now, KH7672 said:

So I just watched it again just to pay more attention to Toola Roola and Coconut Cream as they were the solution and honestly it works so much better than I thought.

Sorry one more thing before I forget. I saw someone (not on this forum) comment on the quality of these two's voice actresses and looking it up they are actually in close degrees of MLP.

Toola Roola-Alyssya Swales: Does a lot of kids recent movies but in particular was the voice of Chelsea is a Barbie movie whose sister is Stacie voice by Claire Corlett (Sweetie Belle)

Coconut Cream-Aine Sunderland: Not too much however she was in A Haunting Hour (old show on the Hub). Granted it was a bit part, but I still enjoyed the actors in that show.

I just find it interesting the connections some of these random voice actors have.

[CypherHoof 26,483]

14 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

Not everypony hates Rarity or Fluttershy (there actually is a great moment when a Fluttershy fan sulks away when that pugdy yellow mare criticizes her).

I just assumed there were a whole group of Fluttershy fanponies protesting at that; you know, very quietly, and trying not to disturb anyone

 

 

[Ragland Tiger 3,391]

1 hour ago, SugarCoatxMarblePie said:

Criticism =/= attacking dude.

My apologies.  There were other unrelated issues on my mind.

[Batbrony 16,054]

Well then... that was... odd.  Certainly not bad, and I don't even find myself disagreeing with the lesson of this episode, but it was quite odd to watch to say the least.  I honestly don't think we've ever had an episode as blatantly meta as "Fame and Misfortune," and it leaves me in a strange place when it comes to reviewing it.  But I'm gonna try my best, since it's still an episode of MLP, and like I said, not a bad one, even if I don't know completely how I feel about it.  Without further ado, let's begin, this is Batbrony Reviews "Fame and Misfortune."

I won't lie, that is undeniably one of the most adorable faces Twilight's made in some time 

So let's not beat around the bush and get straight to the point: this episode is a biting critique of both the worst behavior displayed by nerdy fandoms in general, and specifically the brony fandom in particular.  What happens?  Twilight Sparkle rediscovers her old friendship journal she and her friends put together, and decides to distribute it all across Equestria in the hopes that ponies will take the lessons to heart.  This plan seemingly backfires, however, when suddenly the Mane 6 are being treated like celebrities, and as a result being hounded and harangued in the absolutely worst ways that celebrities are.  Worst of all, none of the ponies harassing them seem to have taken any of the lessons to heart and are more interested in far more trivial, superficial matters.  The friends are almost overwhelmed by all of this insanity, but take comfort in each other at the end, as well as the fact that some ponies (namely G4 Toola Roola and her friend Coconut Cream) show them that they have taken their lessons to heart and haven't missed the point of the journal, even if many others have.

That's as simple a summary as I can give, and it's really not that complex of an episode overall.  It's still an odd one, and I certainly have my criticisms despite appreciating the lesson.  Let's start with my criticisms before we touch on the positives, just to get them out of the way.  For starters, this episode has a single-sided depiction of celebrity-hood, and a negative one at that.  I don't think the bad things they show happening to the Mane 6 as celebrities are necessarily inaccurate, not at all, being a celebrity is an exhausting, 24/7 endeavor I am sure and fans can be super weird, if not downright uncomfortable at times.  But they don't show the fact that being a celebrity comes with its own set of perks as well, and not just superficial ones; while MLP creators and artists may, in the grand Hollywood hierarchy, only be minor celebrities for the most part, they still have access to a lot of opportunities that their fans do not for the most part.  Plus, come on, they get to make an awesome show about magical ponies; hard work as that may be, I'd still say it's pretty awesome.  Point being that being a celebrity of any level isn't JUST the nightmare that the show depicted here, there's more to it than that.  I will admit, though, that I appreciate that they took our longstanding critique that the Mane 6 were never treated like celebrities by the rest of Equestria despite saving it so many times; after this episode, I'm perfectly OK if they aren't ever again seeing as ponies treated them so bizarrely.  I far prefer getting to see them lead their lives as normally as possible when they can.

My second critique is that I wasn't particularly fond of seeing mainstay background ponies treating the Mane 6 like assholes.  The new characters I didn't care about, and while I understand that they couldn't just make new character models and were most likely just recycling characters for convenience's sake, it was still not particularly pleasant seeing background characters we've come to love act OOC and like total jerks.  Granted, like much in this episode, it will probably be forgotten entirely going forward, so I'm pretty forgiving of it overall with that in mind, but still, I wasn't all that fond of it at times (except of course when Pinkie had that hilarious line, "YOU'VE KNOWN ME FOR YEARS!!!!!!"  That was golden and I cannot hate that line at all).  I will admit, though, that I did enjoy seeing them criticize the "Best Pony" fad, or at least how some people treat it; it's alright if you have a favorite character for your own personal reasons (I should know considering Derpy is mine), BUT having a favorite character doesn't mean that they are superior to the others for EVERYBODY just by virtue of being your favorite, or that you need to prove their "superiority."  Just be content with why you like them more than the others, while also accepting that the Mane 6 simply wouldn't be as special as they are if even one of their members weren't a part of their group.  The episode definitely did a good job at hammering that point home towards the end, and I applaud them for addressing that particular niche in the fandom.

The third critique I have isn't much of a critique, more like just an expression of how I personally feel about the episode.  The target of this episode is the fringe elements of the fandom, namely fans who turn their liking of the show into an unhealthy thing for both themselves and others in a variety of ways.  The biggest critique I have of how this is shown is that I believe it is especially targeted at the con-going crowd, ya know, bronies who regularly attend pony cons and get the most chances to be around the show's creators.  There's nothing wrong with that either, but in my case, it means that the lesson didn't actually resonate with me all that much.  Why?  Not because it's a bad lesson, but because I'm not a part of that crowd.  In my entire life, I've been to a grand total of one convention, last year's BronyCon.  It was a great time where I got to meet a bunch of cool bronies and creators, both from the show and in the fandom, and yes, I also got exposed to in those few days some of the more uncomfortable sides of the fandom, i.e., fans who take certain things about the show too seriously, fans who don't have good self-awareness and can make others uncomfortable because of their behavior, fans who feel entitled to certain treatment just by virtue of loving the show, fans who think they prove their "status" in the fandom by owning the most merchandise that they can, etc.  These were all there to be sure, and yet, that's the only time I've gotten to see it.  Now any fan can certainly be exposed to the ugly side of the fandom online as well, but it's far different in person, when you get to see hundreds if not thousands of bronies gathered together.  I myself have only gotten to see that once, and many bronies can't even say that, so really, I think for folks like myself who are not a part of the regular con-going crowd, this episode isn't going to resonate as much with us.  That's OK, all episodes have varying levels of effect on people depending on what they can personally take from it; I know that many bronies didn't feel that "The Perfect Pear" resonated with them as much as it did with others, and in many of those cases, they're bronies who've never had a romantic relationship or a really deep one, so it's understandable that they may not get why that episode resonated so strongly with others who have been in love with another.  But the reason I do still list it as a critique is because the target audience of this episode is so narrow; con-going bronies either have the good fortune of living very close to where a big con is regularly held, or they have the resources to get to multiple cons each year.  Ultimately, that's a small segment of the fandom, even if it is an important segment.  An episode like "The Perfect Pear" by contrast could easily resonate with anyone who's ever been in love, or just wants to understand the deeper effects of a pure love in general, meaning it has a far more universal audience, to the point that I believe that even people who don't watch MLP could get a lot out of it.

Replace that tree with a body pillow, and you've got an eerily accurate scene one could easily encounter at one of our cons 

So, even if this episode doesn't resonate with me very strongly, why do I still think it's a good episode?  Because it still has a good lesson, even if it's a very meta one that probably won't ever be brought up again.  For me, this was 22 minutes of the show's creators venting about the hardest aspects of dealing with this fandom, and I'm OK with that.  This is a weird fandom by nature, and in general that's usually alright, but at its worst it means that the show's creators are often confronted by dozens of fans with silly critiques, demanding and entitled behavior, or just take their love of the show to uncomfortable levels.  Worst of all, they forget what the point of this show is to begin with, teaching good lessons to others and helping them be better for learning those lessons.  Overall, my biggest takeaway from this episode for the fandom is that, if you have the opportunity to express your love for the show in public, especially to its creators, don't do it in a way that isn't good for anyone.  Don't harass them, don't act snobbish or entitled around them, don't act as though they are there (at a con or such) for you.  Being a fan and getting to share in your love of the show with a creator means doing just that, sharing, showing how much you appreciate the work they've done, and the stories and characters they've created.  I'm not saying you can't be critical of the show, I've done just that up above after all.  But it's one thing to be critical of certain things in an episode of the show.  It's another thing entirely to take certain flaws as a personal affront, or to act like a jackass about certain problems.  In the grand scheme of things, a bad episode in this show, even one as horrendous as "Hard to Say Anything," isn't going to be the end of the world; it'll just be a bad episode and, while you can be upset about that, you shouldn't let it affect you or others too much.

As the song in this episode goes (which sounded a bit too epic to be warranted for this episode, but I won't complain since it was still a super lovely song all the same), "We're not flawless, we're a work in progress."  This doesn't just apply to the characters, it applies to the show itself.  The creators are always trying to see how they can improve upon the already great stuff they've made, what new things they could add to make it even more special.  When episodes like "The Perfect Pear" happen, we see the greatest fruits of their labors and ambitions, proof that they truly are trying to push the boundaries of what they can accomplish in this show.  But that doesn't mean there will never be buck ups or mishandled episodes either, and while we don't have to like those episodes, we shouldn't blow them out of proportion either.  Being a good fan means trying to use your love of something to share in celebrating it with its creator, and offering helpful critiques and advice when you can.  It doesn't mean inconveniencing creators or even making life harder for them; if that's going on as a result of your behavior, then you're doing something wrong as a fan.

Do you have to like this episode?  I don't think so, no.  I don't think anyone should be personally offended by it, but if it didn't resonate with you very strongly like in my own case, that's alright.  And hey, if you loved it and had a blast at its meta nature, that's great, keep on loving it.  This episode is already creating very split opinions on it in the fandom, it seems, and I'm neither surprised nor do I think that's a bad thing, necessarily (just don't make the creators lives a living hell for making it, folks, OK?).  So what's my advice for all of us to take away from this episode?  Simple: love the show, critique it where it's warranted but in a reasonable manner, and show your love to the show's creators in a healthy, positive, uplifting, and grounded manner that leaves both you and them feeling better.  Don't be a jackass, don't act like the creators "owe" you anything, and don't forget what this show is all about in the first place.  Learning some good lessons about life, taking those lessons to heart, and practicing them in your own lives as best as you can for the good of others and yourself.  If we do that, then we're proving that the show creators' efforts have all been worth it.  That's all I've got for ya this week, everypony, until next time this is Batbrony signing off.  I'm off!!! *cue dramatic exit*

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to watch "The Perfect Pear" again...

DON'T JUDGE ME, YOU KNOW YOU DO IT TOO!!! 

[darknessrising24 56]

It takes balls to pull off an episode like this, especially since such a premise can be done horribly wrong if written poorly, just look at TTG's "Return of Slade".

But this ep did the concept right in my opinion. Plus it was full of self-referential humor, which is the reason why I found this episode funny at certain points however, I actually cracked up when I heard that one old mare complain "Twilight was better without wings!".

If Slice of Life represents the best aspects of the fandom, then this episode calls out the worst.

Edited August 13, 2017 by darknessrising24

[Will Guide 21,360]

@Batbrony

I agree with your closing thoughts! It's definitely the episodes and lessons that can inspire someone that keep bringing me back!

Example: As much as the majority of Bronies hate characters like Zephyr Breeze, Fluttershy's "freeloading" brother, it was because of me identifying with his fear of failure and ultimately succeeding that inspired me to finish College, something I thought I would never be able to do!

[Amys-pmvs 432]

Well its good to remind us of the old episodes but can we get over twicorn

[Castle Bleck 19,350]

2 minutes ago, WiiGuy2014 said:

As much as the majority of Bronies hate characters like Zephyr Breeze, Fluttershy's "freeloading" brother, it was because of me identifying with his fear of failure and ultimately succeeding that inspired me to finish College, something I thought I would never be able to do!

 

I don't think he's hated for being a freeloader; I think he's hated for being an annoying manipulator who carelessly disrespects other people's property.

[Will Guide 21,360]

8 minutes ago, darknessrising24 said:

It takes balls to pull off an episode like this, especially since such a premise can be done horribly wrong if written poorly, just look at TTG's "Return of Slade".

But this ep did the concept right in my opinion. Plus it was full of self-referential humor, which is the reason why I found this episode funny at certain points however, I actually cracked up when I heard that one old mare complain "Twilight was better without wings!".

If Slice of Life represents the best aspects of the fandom, then this episode calls out the worst.

Wow, that last paragraph! Never thought of it that way! Perfect complimentary opposites!

Just now, A.V. said:

 

I don't think he's hated for being a freeloader; I think he's hated for being an annoying manipulator who carelessly disrespects other people's property.

Well, can't argue with you there. That scene with the back house was uncomfortable to sit through again. 

Luckily, it gets better as the episode goes on.

[SparklingSquirrels 21,341]

1 hour ago, WiiGuy2014 said:

Actually, the mob represents the unpleaseable fanbase. No matter what you do, there will always be people who are never satisfied!

At least, the Mane 6 know their lessons help some ponies like those little fillies. (As well as me when I fantasize about talking to them as Unicorn Will Guide)

As I said earlier, I'm not really a fan of including the brony community in the show, because the brony community doesn't exist in the MLP world.

Also, I like the episodes to have a conclusion, and not just a "what will happen next?" feeling.

Edited August 13, 2017 by SparklingSwirls

[CypherHoof 26,483]

4 minutes ago, A.V. said:

 

I don't think he's hated for being a freeloader; I think he's hated for being an annoying manipulator who carelessly disrespects other people's property.

I think there are plenty of reasons to hate him.

Personally? I look at how badly Fluttershy was neglected as a filly, look at things like @Queen Cassie's awesome PA where she speculates that Flutters is actually an orphan...  Then Flutter Brutter. I am sitting thinking "hold on, what happened here? they seem perfectly fine parents, why in Equestria....." and then Zephyr breezes in and it clicks.  Flutters is the second child in a modest working family, where there is never quite enough left over for her - because Zephyr always got the lion's share and squandered it.  Worse yet, times an older brother SHOULD have been there for her, Rainbow Dash had to fill in the gap, because her brother was so self-centered he wasn't - and while RD's parents were enthusiastic fans of their child, Fluttershy's parents were probably just happy that at least ONE of their children wasn't demanding and attention seeking all the time.

So.. yeah. Zeph, please die in a fire. seriously.

 

[Hierok 11,831]

43 minutes ago, A.V. said:

 

I don't think he's hated for being a freeloader; I think he's hated for being an annoying manipulator who carelessly disrespects other people's property.

That is pretty much true. I only hate him because he destroyed his fathers collection, but it is a fun guy besides that. 

[Steve Piranha 29,421]

2 hours ago, Hierok said:

It was a great episode, so I expected nothing less. 

Still, with so many rabid fans it made fun off, I've expected Twilicorn levels of freakout  

Edited August 13, 2017 by Steve Piranha

[CypherHoof 26,483]

10 minutes ago, Steve Piranha said:

Still, with so many rabid fans it made fun off, I've expected Twilicorn levels of freakout  

Perhaps they have yet to recover from their hissy fits?

[Truffles 2,033]

1 hour ago, Jeric said:

I wouldn't go that far. Obviously when pressed for time they can't delve into the complexity of each individual fan representation, but what they can do, and what they did do, is take an accurate snapshot of things fans have done or said that have perplexed the staff over the years.

Much if what we saw is accurate. The mare that screamed that they were entitled to know is taken directly from Jim Miller's Twitter page. It's one of the things that has caused him to rant in the past. 

I can't argue that the things they portrayed haven't happened in the fan community. And I admit that as they hit on each one of them, I laughed because I've seen it myself. But it's still a little shallow even if it is an accurate rendering, especially because it's first airing was right after a really fulfilling and emotional episode. It was kind of like following up a full-course meal with a red hot gumball - it's fun at first for the shock value but leaves one feeling a little empty on repeated viewings.

I will say this - the episode did deliver some of the funniest faces we've had from the Mane 6 in a long time. Those at least will last in the memories of the viewers, even if the other details of the episode don't. Also it's interesting how there's been a discussion on where the slapstick has gone in the series and then we get this episode. It proves it hasn't gone away completely, and in fact is pretty much a showcase for such humor. (Twilight taking the brunt of it, much like she did in "Feeling Pinkie Keen," right down to having the same expression after she got a door slammed in her face, originally by Spike and this time by Pinkie.)

[CypherHoof 26,483]

8 minutes ago, Truffles said:

 especially because it's first airing was right after a really fulfilling and emotional episode. It was kind of like following up a full-course meal with a red hot gumball - it's fun at first for the shock value but leaves one feeling a little empty on repeated viewings.

I think that may actually be deliberate. I mean, this followed perfect pear... ANYTHING you put up after that is going to suffer in comparison, so might as well throw in a curveball as it isn't going matter.

11 minutes ago, Truffles said:

Also it's interesting how there's been a discussion on where the slapstick has gone in the series and then we get this episode. It proves it hasn't gone away completely, and in fact is pretty much a showcase for such humor.

Yup. Again, this episode seems to be heavy feedback on the community, and hence, that could have been thrown in deliberately.

[Thrond 3,263]

3 hours ago, Dark Qiviut said:

Meta episodes can be good if done right.

SoL works, because it focused on story first and really weaved the references in well.

Stranger Than FF has both good and bad. The con jabbed at fandom culture, but approaches it in such a tongue-in-cheek way that the jokes make sense and are done in a "we're-laughing-with-you" manner. The one problem is how Quibble was portrayed; conversely, the audience knows that he's still a good person and makes it up.

Fame is how NOT to write a FIM meta episode. Rather than welcoming, the atmosphere's really mean-spirited, and every adult portrayed here aside from the RM7 is a stereotype, a jerk, or both.

I liked "Slice of Life" because there was usually an in-universe joke or at least a degree of surrealism to balance out the fandom references, and "Stranger than Fanfiction" because it kept itself entirely in-universe. I didn't really like "Fame and Misfortune" because the dialogue doesn't match the situation, to the degree that it's clearly an unsubtle allegory for people talking about fiction. 

2 hours ago, SugarCoatxMarblePie said:

Seems like you are identifying with them, how about you take a look in the mirror instead of saying the episode is bad for personal reasons. If many enjoyed the episode it objectively can't be bad. Funny how you say its mean spirited, when that's what you do.

I think we're at an impasse here if you're equating harsh wording in posts on a fan forum to harassment of the characters (who here stand in for the writers). I don't find @Dark Qiviut's aggressive phrasing worthy of mockery, and that's part of why this episode wasn't funny to me. 

Also, of course the episode can't be objectively bad, because "good" and "bad" are inherently subjective judgments when it comes to art and entertainment. 

 

 

[Jeric 46,851]

1 hour ago, Amys-pmvs said:

Well its good to remind us of the old episodes but can we get over twicorn

Tell that to the one guy on EqD. 

12 minutes ago, Truffles said:

Also it's interesting how there's been a discussion on where the slapstick has gone in the series and then we get this episode. It proves it hasn't gone away completely, and in fact is pretty much a showcase for such humor. (Twilight taking the brunt of it, much like she did in "Feeling Pinkie Keen," right down to having the same expression after she got a door slammed in her face, originally by Spike and this time by Pinkie.)

This may be another reason I can successfully overlook some of the issues I have. I have seen if three times and still smile at the gags like the door slam.