Hot take: I think the root of all the problems MLP:FiM has is that it doesn’t have a solid sense of continuity and consistency

[Ring Team 123]

A couple of years ago I started to think that MLP:FiM doesn't have any sense of continuity or consistency. It's just a procedurally-generated story getting more and more off the rails.

-In Made in Manehattan it's established that Applejack has a sudden fear of huge crowds, but it doesn't make sense to show that since the audience saw her being fine in Manehattan in Cutie Mark Chronicles and Rarity takes Manehattan, both from season 1 and 4 respectively.

-Pinkie Pie had 2 sisters, not 3. I won't say it as a reason to dislike Maud Pie. She was great in some episodes, but I kinda wish she was one of the two sisters instead of creating one out of nowhere.

-Pinkie Pie became more annoying in the later seasons, to the point where an episode was written as an excuse for her to go insane (Yakity-Sax and Secrets and Pies). I'm very glad that it wasn't the case for The last laugh. It would have been very easy and very tempting to write an episode where she annoys Cheese Sandwich for 22 minutes.

-The writers have hinted the idea of Applejack and Pinkie Pie being related, but very little else. They haven't toyed with the idea enough to the point where there was no conclusion (either being related or not related). I wanted to see a conclusion, even a small one, not necessarily an episode entirely dedicated to that conclusion.

-Rainbow Dash is supposed to care about her little turtle in the ending of Tank for the memories, but, after seeing her feeding the turtle with unhealthy food in Secrets and Pies (in this case, cake), I have a hard time believing that she actually cares about her turtle.

-The writers wanted Twilight to become a princess in season 3, which was fine, although I thought she would have been better as a teacher considering her character features. And then they wanted her to be a teacher in season 8 not only her, but also the Mane 6. Unfortunately, some of the main characters are not written to be teachers, such as Rainbow Dash, Pinkie Pie and Starlight Glimmer.

-In Call of the Cutie it was established that the cutie marks represent their talent, the uniqueness of each pony, which was a beautiful idea. But in Cutie Map, Starlight kinda swaps cutie marks like nothing. I think this skill completely invalidates the personal aspect and the point of having a cutie mark. When you have a talent, you perfected it and you make a living with your own talent and effort, that doesn’t matter because Starlight is gonna take that away from you whenever she wants and however she wants. And I think it shouldn’t have been this way. It's like seeing a human playing God.

-Starlight as a new redeemed character is a really cool idea to talk about redemption and empathy, but I don't think that's what we got at all. Starlight using her magic to manipulate everyone (including age regression spells, brainwash spells, hypnosis and exterminating a draconequus) and swap cutie marks in an abusive way to achieve her personal goals and being a complete jerk with essentially everyone is really bad. Using magic to solve friendship problems and/or learning about friendship shouldn’t be a solution for a character who was previously a villain.

-Speaking about her... Starting a cult because her friend moved away? Seriously?

-The show clearly questions Discord because he was evil in season 2. That makes sense. But the entire Ponyville and Canterlot don’t give the same treatment for Starlight. And, like Chrysalis, Tirek and Cozy Glow, Starlight has done so many horrible things that she has no redeeming value. And she never faced any consequences, just like Discord. They're as bad as each other but the show desperately wants you to think she’s better.

-Trixie is supposed to be someone who has learned from her mistakes, but I don't think it was the case here, especially in episodes where she was thinking about herself (like All Bottled Up) and how she blames everyone for jugding her (which, by the way, she is the last pony to talk about judgement considering what happened in Boast Busters and Magic Duel). In A Horse Shoe-in, Trixie doesn’t learn anything. She wants something, there are obstacles, she gets what she wants. The end. Despite her causing all this trouble, she still gets exactly what she wants. She whines and complains, and in the end, she’s rewarded for it. There’s no sense of effort from Trixie’s part.

-Queen Chrysalis was probably the most mishandled character I've seen in the show. From showing up at the end of season 2 to briefly appear in season 5 to briefly appear in season 6 (including an UGLY redesign of the changelings), to briefly appear in season 8 and to finally appear as frequent as she could in season 9.

-Speaking of villains, I don't remember what the point of Cozy Glow was. I don't mind typical villains with ambitions, but these villains needed to be fleshed out. It wasn't the case for Cozy Glow.

As much as I love this show, I don't think MLP:FiM is perfect. One of the problems the show had is that it had the main plot going foward in the first and last episode of each season. The rest of the episodes is just slice of life episodes. Because of having two opposite approaches, the show was rarely at its best in the later seasons. There was a layer of improvement that the show rarely got. It was doing the bare minimum. No continuity, no consistency, etc.

When you have a show that depends too much on the status-quo of the show, I have a hard time believing that the writers wanted to get ambitious, which is neat, but it didn't completely work out at the end. Still, I had a lot of fun finishing the show back in 2021. Even though we got horrible episodes, some other episodes were good and great.

That said, no matter how much I like it, I always see a troubled show that didn’t live up to what Hasbro and the writers wanted out of it. For every really good episode this show has, there are two episodes that were ridiculous, unnecessary, close-minded, confusing or weird that kinda splitted the fans, especially the major creative decisions. And while I love their best episodes such as A Canterlot Wedding, Crusaders of the Lost Mark, Over a Barrel, Party of One and many other episodes, I think out of the 222 episodes this show has, there’s only 80 episodes that are well worth watching today, and only 30 of these 80 have aged well.

If the G5 wanted to be relevant, the first thing I'd like to see is a high level of consistency and continuity that MLP:FiM never got. That would make it refreshing to see. I saw last year the film A New Generation and, while I think the film is decent expect the pop music songs, it's a very nice start from scratch. Many people have pointed out that it doesn't work as a sequel to G4, but I think it works. Because, for one, the G5 needs to be great on its own merits and, two, considering the problems MLP:FiM has, I'd rather prefer a new start. And I like how it was handled. I like the fact that the Mane 6 are Sunny's toys that represented a beautiful idea of what friendship was in the past, just as many fans look at MLP:FiM as something that represented a beautiful idea of what friendship was in the past. I really love that detail.

The TV shows with a established status-quo have always existed and they will always exist, but nowadays there's no excuse for the writers not to create stories that reward the audience for paying attention, something that MLP:FiM didn't do and the G5 can do.

I'm saying this because, even if we keep telling ourselves that the story makes sense, it actually isn't. It's very inconsistent. My Little Pony Friendship is Magic isn't supposed to have a concrete planned-out logical storyline. If there was one, it would be there, clear as day (and we definitively wouldn't talk that much about Starlight's character arc and Cozy Glow's relevance in the context of the show). The writers didn't think of the idea of writing stories about ponies for nine seasons. Trying to say that "the story makes sense" would be like falling in the Kingdom Hearts rabbit hole.

I think the G5 will be pretty good because of that opportunity. Let's just hope for the best of the writers to make something memorable and especially consistent in Make your Mark. If Gravity Falls and Steven Universe were consistent, I don't see why G5 wouldn't be.

Sorry for the long text and take care.

[Courageous Thunder Dash 7,825]

Every Season had its themes. Personally, I felt that continuity actually grew stronger after Twilight became an Alicorn, because it showed the struggles of embracing a new role. Sure there were misplaced episodes but...I feel they contributed to the cause of the plot in their own unique way. 

[Pentium100 2,303]

4 hours ago, Ring Team said:

A couple of years ago I started to think that MLP:FiM doesn't have any sense of continuity or consistency. It's just a procedurally-generated story getting more and more off the rails.

A lot of TV shows do not have that much continuity. It's different with newer shows, but Babylon 5 was one of the first to have a continuing pre-planned story. Also, MLP is for kids. Shows with a lot of continuity have to be watched from the beginning to understand what the hell is going on. You probably do not want that for a kids show. You want more self-contained episodes, so we got mostly self-contained episodes. It's also the result of writing team changing over time.

 

4 hours ago, Ring Team said:

-The writers have hinted the idea of Applejack and Pinkie Pie being related, but very little else. They haven't toyed with the idea enough to the point where there was no conclusion (either being related or not related). I wanted to see a conclusion, even a small one, not necessarily an episode entirely dedicated to that conclusion.

The moral of that episode probably was "who cares?".

 

I don't like that Twilight was made the main princess. 

4 hours ago, Ring Team said:

But in Cutie Map, Starlight kinda swaps cutie marks like nothing.

She could remove cutie marks, so why could't she attach them to the wrong ponies as well? Seems logical to me.

4 hours ago, Ring Team said:

-Speaking about her... Starting a cult because her friend moved away? Seriously?

It was probably more steps than that, but I could see it happening.

4 hours ago, Ring Team said:

The show clearly questions Discord because he was evil in season 2. That makes sense. But the entire Ponyville and Canterlot don’t give the same treatment for Starlight. And, like Chrysalis, Tirek and Cozy Glow, Starlight has done so many horrible things that she has no redeeming value. And she never faced any consequences, just like Discord. They're as bad as each other but the show desperately wants you to think she’s better.

Discord is chaotic, Starlight is not, for the most part. Ponies could just really dislike chaos, and Discord, even when reformed would probably still do chaotic stuff for fun (just not as bad as before), leading to ponies not liking him. Also, he is really powerful, you get the feeling that if he just decided to be bad, nobody could stop him. It probably is like living with a domesticated bear or something. I would definitely not trust it to not attack me.

Starlight, on the other hand, is not as chaotic and not as powerful.

4 hours ago, Ring Team said:

The rest of the episodes is just slice of life episodes.

Something that I like a lot. 

4 hours ago, Ring Team said:

nowadays there's no excuse for the writers not to create stories that reward the audience for paying attention

Don't forget that the target audience is little kids, who may not watch every episode and may not remember the story.

If G5 is the same format as G4 it would be OK for me, I like slice-of-life stuff. If they decide to make it more story-driven, OK as well, I guess as long as the story is interesting and there are some slice-of-life elements.

[Star_Quake 28]

4 hours ago, Ring Team said:

-In Made in Manehattan it's established that Applejack has a sudden fear of huge crowds, but it doesn't make sense to show that since the audience saw her being fine in Manehattan in Cutie Mark Chronicles and Rarity takes Manehattan, both from season 1 and 4 respectively.

 

 

4 hours ago, Ring Team said:

-Pinkie Pie became more annoying in the later seasons, to the point where an episode was written as an excuse for her to go insane (Yakity-Sax and Secrets and Pies). I'm very glad that it wasn't the case for The last laugh. It would have been very easy and very tempting to write an episode where she annoys Cheese Sandwich for 22 minutes.

 

 

4 hours ago, Ring Team said:

-Rainbow Dash is supposed to care about her little turtle in the ending of Tank for the memories, but, after seeing her feeding the turtle with unhealthy food in Secrets and Pies (in this case, cake), I have a hard time believing that she actually cares about her turtle.

 

It seems like the writers just don't know the characters they're writing. However these are kinda small examples, and in my opinion they don't really affect the plot that much. However, however as the seasons go by it sometimes feels like the characters just don't ever learn from their own mistakes. Especially with RD. 

4 hours ago, Ring Team said:

-In Call of the Cutie it was established that the cutie marks represent their talent, the uniqueness of each pony, which was a beautiful idea. But in Cutie Map, Starlight kinda swaps cutie marks like nothing. I think this skill completely invalidates the personal aspect and the point of having a cutie mark. When you have a talent, you perfected it and you make a living with your own talent and effort, that doesn’t matter because Starlight is gonna take that away from you whenever she wants and however she wants. And I think it shouldn’t have been this way. It's like seeing a human playing God.

 

Remember though cutie marks are just magic, Tirek had also stolen ponies cutie marks (technically e.e) Cutie marks would loose their meaning if the pony didn't feel like their cutie mark represented them.

 

[Ring Team 123]

4 hours ago, The Wife of Adaman said:

@Ring Team

I have gone ahead and moved this thread over to MLP:FiM Canon Discussion ~

Ok, thank you. I'm still trying to figure out the sections of the forum, so please excuse the inconveniences.

[Justin_Case001 4,936]

TL;DR.  It's a helluva lot better than most kid's shows, though.  You can't expect frickin' LOTR from a kid's franchise like this.

[They call me Loyalty 1,956]

Not necessarily. But you can still keep the episodic formula and have an over-arching plot to give the series a sense continuity. The problem is that the complexity of the plot increases dramatically because of it, which means you need good writers to be able to tie it all together and give it a well earned resolution. That is all you need. Good writers.
And I am still freaked out because those horses do not have sexual organs. How do they reproduce? It is really weird that sexuality and life exist almost like in two separate planes. At least on the "bright" side of media. And then you have a dark side which is really, really dark. It is not integrated very well, right? Does it still hurt? Be honest. Or is it too hot a take for you? I know humanity is still traumatized and have many of our "colorful" compulsions because of the thourough use they were given when we fell. But that is no excuse to denaturalize nature. C'mon! You are only exacerbating the main problem, hasbro people. And then you have that dude dying of prostate cancer, which is not strange at all considering all the "issues" we instilled on them.
That should let you know the root of the conflict. Where most of the trauma resides.

But yeah. There are so many things I would change if they made me the ceo of hasbro. To make MLP great again. Hahaha! But they didn't like the idea... they said it was "too real". And you know me, I love "real". Also, my death threats didn't help matters, to be honest. Just kidding. But only on that part.

Edited March 29, 2022 by They call me Loyalty

[abronymouse 6,146]

Ooh a hot-takes thread >:3 Love the detail pony-friend. I'm gonna agree with you only a little, but I gotta say I enjoyed writing this response  

 

was AJ that scared of large crowds in MM? Came across to me more like disliking hustle and bustle which is consistent with her being a farm filly ya'll I ain't got no truck with them thar city folk.

Pinkie had 2 sisters shown in CMC chronicles. Maud not being there is consistent with her leaving home while she worked on her rocktorate (although she was totally a silly add on  )

PP was definitely annoying in season 1 (coming from a fan of her) and she was much better in seasons 2-5 (love Pinkie's pride). Even though I grant her later showings were not all great; that said, I enjoyed her in the movie, Best Gift and Roadtrip and she had loads of good background moments (eg Saddle Row Review), she even had her best Yak ep in S9 (I generally hate those yak eps) and the Pinkie-Twi Trivia pursuit was pretty fun too. 

AJ and Pinkie not being clearly related isn't a flaw - there are plenty of clearly related characters in the show after all. There are mysteries that are plot-important and should be resolved and then there are mysteries that can be left open.

Critters are consistently not given critter appropriate food in the series! We have horses eating burgers for pony's sake.

I agree about the pony princess thing. Thing is, my four to eight year old neices have consistently disagreed with me on this point. And I have to say, their cute lil faces are persuasive.

I also kinda agree about cutie marks and Starlight, but I think they did a fair job of making it a big deal in the episode (tbh I agree much more with later casual cutie swaps like on the Princesses - that should have been a much bigger moment really, given that these are magical quasi divine princess ponies whose identities were messed with). Also, remember we did have Starswirl toying with spells that mixed up cutie marks before this. 

I couldn't disagree more about Starlight Sheridan owning up to her marestakes. She is hard taught about her evil ways and is shown to be guilty about her village (To Where and Back Again) and about the Mane 6 ('Every Little Thing She Does').

I agree about Starlight's reasons. Far too neat - not everything boils down to friendship.

I disagree about Starlight and Ponyville. Discord tried to take over Ponyville, while Starlight oppressed her village and was anti-Mane 6 but never took on Ponyville.

Disagree about the premise of your criticism of Kathleen 'Trixie' Lulamoon. She's not supposed to have neatly learned from all her mistakes because sometimes friends are flawed, but underneath it all she's still a diamond in the rough :3

I agree they could have done more with Cryssie (and a few other villains) but what they did works thematically. I particularly like the moment they showed Cryssie, Cosy and Tirek turn away from friendship - you can't save everypony immediately... isn't that why Celestia sent her own sister to the moon?

I'm not sure what you're not getting about Cosy. Cosy is 'Friendship is Power' who uses her intelligence to manipulate ponies. She's a Twicopath.

I agree FiM ain't perfect  There are so many things out there that are good, and if FiM was perfect then there wouldn't be anything to look forward to  But, personally, I never expected the show to be absolutely consistent. It is strange to think back to the context of making FiM like any other toy-property kids show, but it - like other toy shows - is just a 1) brand, 2) a strong pitch by a talented producer who creates the foundation, 3) talented writers, artists (etc) who take the brand and vision forward. I actually kinda liked the brand before I was a brony, and I adored the pitch. I think that many of the writers were inspired, because they did wonderful things with the ingredients, but that model is no guarantee of consistency. I could add a 4), which is fans, who are really the only reason I found it :3

 

12 hours ago, Ring Team said:

That said, no matter how much I like it, I always see a troubled show that didn’t live up to what Hasbro and the writers wanted out of it. For every really good episode this show has, there are two episodes that were ridiculous, unnecessary, close-minded, confusing or weird that kinda splitted the fans, especially the major creative decisions. And while I love their best episodes such as A Canterlot Wedding, Crusaders of the Lost Mark, Over a Barrel, Party of One and many other episodes, I think out of the 222 episodes this show has, there’s only 80 episodes that are well worth watching today, and only 30 of these 80 have aged well.

 

*spits out tea* didn't live up to what Hasbro and the writers wanted? I mean... how... what..? On the one hoof, Hasbro wants the brand to be improved and they clearly love what FiM did as Hasbro are STILL using Faust's characters in their merch and refer to them nostalgically in the new gen. On the other hoof, thank Celstia's ivory horn Hasbro didn't get exactly what it wanted, because it wasn't exactly known as the pinnacle of excellent kiddie media before 2010. I agree on the 30 eps aging well but not with your standards! Lemme compare that to another massive fave of mine - Steven Universe - there are about 10 eps that I go back to. Out of gazillion.

12 hours ago, Ring Team said:

If the G5 wanted to be relevant, the first thing I'd like to see is a high level of consistency and continuity that MLP:FiM never got. That would make it refreshing to see. I saw last year the film A New Generation and, while I think the film is decent expect the pop music songs, it's a very nice start from scratch. Many people have pointed out that it doesn't work as a sequel to G4, but I think it works. Because, for one, the G5 needs to be great on its own merits and, two, considering the problems MLP:FiM has, I'd rather prefer a new start. And I like how it was handled. I like the fact that the Mane 6 are Sunny's toys that represented a beautiful idea of what friendship was in the past, just as many fans look at MLP:FiM as something that represented a beautiful idea of what friendship was in the past. I really love that detail.

The film is a neater story than anything we got in FiM, so you have reason to be optimistic :3 The film also has many of the ingredients of mystery and fabulousness that made FiM great, which are more my criteria and therefore I have high hopes for Gen 5 too /) 

 

[Ring Team 123]

49 minutes ago, They call me Loyalty said:

Not necessarily. But you can still keep the episodic formula and have an over-arching plot to give the series a sense continuity. The problem is that the complexity of the plot increases dramatically because of it, which means you need good writers to be able to tie it all together and give it a well earned resolution. That is all you need. Good writers.
And I am still freaked out because those horses do not have sexual organs. How do they reproduce? It is really weird that sexuality and life exist almost like in two separate planes. At least on the "bright" side of media. And then you have a dark side which is really, really dark. It is not integrated very well, right? Does it still hurt? Be honest. Or is it too hot a take for you? I know humanity is still traumatized and have many of our "colorful" compulsions because of the thourough use they were given when we fell. But that is no excuse to denaturalize nature. C'mon! You are only exacerbating the main problem, hasbro people. And then you have that dude dying of prostate cancer, which is not strange at all considering all the "issues" we instilled on them.
That should let you know what is the main area of conflict within the individual's life. Where the most trauma resides.

But yeah. There are so many things I would change if they made me the ceo of hasbro. To make MLP great again. Hahaha! But they didn't like the idea... they said it was "too real". And you know me, I love "real". Also, my death threats didn't help matters, to be honest. Just kidding. But only on that part.

To be honest, I really don't think a kids show needs details such as genitals. This is My Little Pony, not Red Dead Redemption II. My problems are not related to realism in the traditional sense of looking real, more like issues related to narrative, drama and context.

 

47 minutes ago, Starforce said:

A lot of issues come from the lack of consistency. With me, a lot of my issue with it is the obvious holes in worldbuilding and missed opportunities. Really a major issue I have had was Starlight's lack of a backstory, she was a great villain! But the backstory was a missed chance. Twilight becoming a Princess of 'Friendship' was another example of poor writing. The Student 6 and Grogar Twist should have never happened. I like the idea of StarSwirl remaining a legend but the other pillars could have been good characters independently. 

Yeah, I wish we got episodes related to the world, like adventures and some mystic details (which is one of the reasons why I love the 2017 MLP film).

Twilight becoming a princess was rushed, but I think it was handled very neat thanks to M.A. Larson. I agree that Grogar's twist was incredibly baffling, but I don't think we didn't need to see Starswirl or the student 6, mainly because I don't like fanservice (Starswirl kinda felt like that) and because I don't like redundant stories (the student 6 had to learn friendship... after seeing the Mane 6, Sunset Shimmer and Starlight learning about friendship).

[Ring Team 123]

3 hours ago, Pentium100 said:

A lot of TV shows do not have that much continuity. It's different with newer shows, but Babylon 5 was one of the first to have a continuing pre-planned story. Also, MLP is for kids. Shows with a lot of continuity have to be watched from the beginning to understand what the hell is going on. You probably do not want that for a kids show. You want more self-contained episodes, so we got mostly self-contained episodes. It's also the result of writing team changing over time.

That wasn't a problem with Gravity Falls and Steven Universe. These two are shows for kids, but that doesn't stop the writers to show a clear sense of continuity. Not only that, but they're also enjoyable for kids and adults, kinda like the Pixar films. The quote "this is for kids" isn't an excuse to a certain point.

 

4 hours ago, Pentium100 said:

She could remove cutie marks, so why could't she attach them to the wrong ponies as well? Seems logical to me.

That doesn't sound better. It's like pushing a person to a cliff, getting busted by the police and saying "I didn't kill him, gravity killed him".

 

4 hours ago, Pentium100 said:

Discord is chaotic, Starlight is not, for the most part. Ponies could just really dislike chaos, and Discord, even when reformed would probably still do chaotic stuff for fun (just not as bad as before), leading to ponies not liking him. Also, he is really powerful, you get the feeling that if he just decided to be bad, nobody could stop him. It probably is like living with a domesticated bear or something. I would definitely not trust it to not attack me.

Starlight, on the other hand, is not as chaotic and not as powerful.

I disagree.

In between seasons 5 and 8, Starlight has done so many questionable things and none of them were adressed by anyone.

In No second prances, she manipulated Big Macintosh and made him talk so much because "I can't be friends with somepony who doesn't talk". After that, we got so many episodes where, after hinting a possible redemption arc in Cutie Remark, she decided to manipulate Twilight's friends (in Every little thing she does), Celestia and Luna (A royal problem), Twilight (from one of the shorts) and Sunburst, someone who's supposed to be her best friend (Uncommon Bond). She also could create dark magic that, once again, allows her to manipulate even more ponies (All bottled up), she encouraged her mentor to reopen her school even though it was shut down for valid reasons (in the opening of season 8, I forgot its name), she exterminated Discord by blasting him in A matter of principals (Discord deserved it, but it doesn’t make Starlight any better considering the lessons she’s supposedly learned by this point), she tried to lead a monster to a kingdom (To change a changeling) and she traded Trixie's wagon even though she knew it was her home and got angry at her for crying for her wagon.

You can't say she's not chaotic considering all the things she has done, especially if not a single character doesn't adress these things. Actions define a character, and Starlight's actions were horrible. If the writers wanted Starlight to touch themes such as redemption and compassion, actually do it, don't make her manipulating anyone the same way she did in Cutie Map. Not only all these actions invalidated Starlight's redemption, but it also doesn't make sense that, once Starlight apologies at the end of an episode, she goes back to manipulate again in the next episode. It's insanely creepy.

Redemption at any cost is not a good plan for a story. In fact, its the very antithesis of having a well thought out plan at all. And I’m not saying Starlight should never show any weaknesses or emotions, because that would be silly. A character without human flaws is a bad character. But the specific weaknesses she’s given here and their place in the show don’t sync up with the rest of her character.

If she wasn't an overpowered unicorn that changed the fundamental rules of the show by magic, I'm pretty sure we'd get more episodes focused on her learning process than actually manipulating everyone. And with Sunburst in the Crystal Empire, she would have a pretty good reason to redeem herself.

[Pentium100 2,303]

27 minutes ago, Ring Team said:

That doesn't sound better. It's like pushing a person to a cliff, getting busted by the police and saying "I didn't kill him, gravity killed him".

Starlight had a small village where she had removed the cutie marks of the inhabitants. Twilight was able to swap the cutie marks of her friends (she became an alicorn for fixing her own screwup). So, the ability to remove and swap cutie marks was already established by the time Starlight did it to Celestia and Luna.

Cutie marks are kind-of stupid though, in general. The ability to remove and swap them does make them a bit more stupid, but whatever.

37 minutes ago, Ring Team said:

You can't say she's not chaotic considering all the things she has done, especially if not a single character doesn't adress these things.

Starlight is less chaotic, despite what she's done before or after redemption. The things that she did were rather logical instead of "I think it's funny". 

I think one of the main themes of MLP was that if you are genuinely sorry for what you did, you can be forgiven, even if you make mistakes now and then. You cannot expect Starlight to immediately become good, since this is not a simple switch - she had to learn that her go-to solution of "brainwashing" is not the correct one. But then again, Twilight also did it once. 

[reesespuffed 28]

11 hours ago, Ring Team said:

-Pinkie Pie became more annoying in the later seasons, to the point where an episode was written as an excuse for her to go insane (Yakity-Sax and Secrets and Pies). I'm very glad that it wasn't the case for The last laugh. It would have been very easy and very tempting to write an episode where she annoys Cheese Sandwich for 22 minutes.

less of a case of continuity issues and more so bad writing

 

12 hours ago, Ring Team said:

e not written to be teachers, such as Rainbow Dash, Pinkie Pie and Starlight Glimmer.

glimmer is a counselor, not a teacher but i see your point nonetheless

 

12 hours ago, Ring Team said:

-In Call of the Cutie it was established that the cutie marks represent their talent, the uniqueness of each pony, which was a beautiful idea. But in Cutie Map, Starlight kinda swaps cutie marks like nothing. I think this skill completely invalidates the personal aspect and the point of having a cutie mark. When you have a talent, you perfected it and you make a living with your own talent and effort, that doesn’t matter because Starlight is gonna take that away from you whenever she wants and however she wants. And I think it shouldn’t have been this way. It's like seeing a human playing God.

in episodes like the cutie pox suggest that cutie marks are just a body trait like manes, not really a symbolic thing. i guess this is also a continuity error?

 

12 hours ago, Ring Team said:

-The show clearly questions Discord because he was evil in season 2. That makes sense. But the entire Ponyville and Canterlot don’t give the same treatment for Starlight. And, like Chrysalis, Tirek and Cozy Glow, Starlight has done so many horrible things that she has no redeeming value. And she never faced any consequences, just like Discord. They're as bad as each other but the show desperately wants you to think she’s better.

ehhh. discord was very unwilling to become good at first and has done mischevious things post s4 finale, while glimmer was desperate to learn how to be better. i wouldnt really consider terrorizing equestria to enslaving a whole town, both bad things of course buuut the show brings up the village constantly and shows her loosining up on magic abuse

 

12 hours ago, Ring Team said:

-Trixie is supposed to be someone who has learned from her mistakes, but I don't think it was the case here, especially in episodes where she was thinking about herself (like All Bottled Up) and how she blames everyone for jugding her (which, by the way, she is the last pony to talk about judgement considering what happened in Boast Busters and Magic Duel). In A Horse Shoe-in, Trixie doesn’t learn anything. She wants something, there are obstacles, she gets what she wants. The end. Despite her causing all this trouble, she still gets exactly what she wants. She whines and complains, and in the end, she’s rewarded for it. There’s no sense of effort from Trixie’s part.

 

trixie isnt supposed to learn in those episodes except magic duel as those episodes are focused on twilight and starlight, she is just confident in herself to believe she can do it and its on starlight to approve her on biases which they both learn their lessons.  Also on all bottled up it was on starlight to stand up and bring up everything and tell her to focus on getting the map back

 

I do think you have a point here and its that the writers just did not have a plan for this show, i do find that more has aged well that most people say but this show in the tail end of its life span was unorganized. heres to g5 being less so

[bubbleteapony 586]

I do have to agree with you, it seems like plot points where just a *bit* all over the place, which in FIM's defense, is a more difficult thing to avoid when you were originally planned for only 3 seasons but ended up getting 9, not to mention the creator walking away from the show.
 

Quote

 

-In Call of the Cutie it was established that the cutie marks represent their talent, the uniqueness of each pony, which was a beautiful idea. But in Cutie Map, Starlight kinda swaps cutie marks like nothing. I think this skill completely invalidates the personal aspect and the point of having a cutie mark. When you have a talent, you perfected it and you make a living with your own talent and effort, that doesn’t matter because Starlight is gonna take that away from you whenever she wants and however she wants. And I think it shouldn’t have been this way. It's like seeing a human playing God.

-Starlight as a new redeemed character is a really cool idea to talk about redemption and empathy, but I don't think that's what we got at all. Starlight using her magic to manipulate everyone (including age regression spells, brainwash spells, hypnosis and exterminating a draconequus) and swap cutie marks in an abusive way to achieve her personal goals and being a complete jerk with essentially everyone is really bad. Using magic to solve friendship problems and/or learning about friendship shouldn’t be a solution for a character who was previously a villain.

-Speaking about her... Starting a cult because her friend moved away? Seriously?

 

Personally, I think Starlight's whole villain arc was a really good way to illustrate the importance of cutie marks and how they make every pony unique, and that includes the whole "ability to take away cutie marks" thing. In Magical Mystery Cure, we learn that even though they're unique to each pony (excluding some background pony copy-pastes ), cutie marks can indeed be switched from pony to pony, and that it's a very high level spell only able to be performed by expert magic users, such as Twilight, Starswirl, and Starlight herself. I think this remains consistent, since as far as I know, Twilight is the only one whose every been able to magically change them *back*. Starswirl never finishes the spell, and Starlight's spells only get reversed by default of the spell expiring/getting destroyed.

With that in mind, I think it was appropriate for Starlight to use magic to solve friendship problems. Was it the right thing to do, hypnotizing ponies and using age regression spells? No But I saw it as sort of a car crash situation- you have to start driving/riding in cars very quickly after one, or else you end up developing a fear of using them at all. I don't think it's right to solve friendship problems with magic (i know, friendship IS magic and whatever, but you know what I mean), and I think that shows through the episodes as well, seeing as Starlight learns repeatedly that she can't rely on magic to solve her problems, friendship or otherwise. It's a believable redemption arc for a villain whose whole deal was using magic in an evil way. This is all coming from someone who was a bona fide Starlight hater but is now really fond of her, so I'd like to imagine that I'm fairly unbiased. (not entirely; just fairly)

 

Irregardless, I totally agree on the continuity issue. I think pacing certainly played a part, it did seem weird watching Twilight grow and become a Princess, finally become comfortable doing that after what, 4 seasons? And then becoming a teacher, and then back to only being a princess? Were her princess duties really that light enough to allow her to build a school and become headmaster? Anyways, those are just my rambling thoughts. It's not completely organized, but I hope I make sense

also, I have to agree with the earlier point... why would genitalia be included in a kids show? It's not even included in most adult cartoons with animals 

Edited March 29, 2022 by bubbleteapony

[Will Guide 21,374]

The opening post is way too long that you're kind of losing me on it while it is interesting all the points that are being discussed here's my hot take on at all

Honestly if you ask me, all that's over analyzing takes away the fun of the show. So what if they were plot holes throughout the series? It was never meant to be like Avatar The Last Airbender that had a consistent thought-out plot from beginning to end. It was supposed to be a slice of Life show about pony friends interacting with each other and helping each other whenever there's a friendship problem. Only once in awhile do we get episode that drastically have things at stake such as in the season premieres and the season finales. So you can't really expect them to all stay consistent and everything set in stone from the first season onward.

I basically just enjoy the show like a roller coaster with all the ups and downs. I'm just glad that the show ends on a high note. Pure and simple

[Megas 28,156]

The problem with it's continuity and consistency has been pretty well documented. MA Larson made it a point to bring up how he was regularly working with writers who didn't even bother watching the show and didn't know what they were doing late into the show, while Josh Haber admitted there wasn't any sort of show bible and relied on fanwikis to figure out what was going on(and kinda bragged about it )

I'd say the bigger problem though is that there were characters and arcs the newer writers were more interested in than others, to the point that some of them were either dropped entirely or were given very unsatisfactory conclusions. Several characters from the earlier seasons baring a few exceptions were abandoned in favor of new characters to take their places in the most obvious way possible(Gilda being left out in favor of Gabby and Gallus for example, to the point where they were rubbing it in by referencing her on occasion but never doing anything), and of the few old characters they did decide to keep around, most of them were the ones most people hated(The Flim Flam Bros, Garble, Snips and Snails). Cheerilee was abandoned after S6 by unceremoniously ending her "relationship" with Big Mac, and was more or less replaced with Sugar Belle, and that storyline got more attention because this time they got to leave their mark. The "connection" between the Apples and the Pies? That was dropped completely. RD becomes a Wonderbolt and the episode it happens is spent treating her like garbage non-stop, and then the writers went on to do absolutely nothing with it in very much in a "there, we got it over with" fashion, then continuously saddled her with garbage episode no one and their mothers asked for like dedicating all of her episodes in the final season to fucking Buckball out of nowhere instead of what she spent the entire bloody show to be with, the WONDERBOLTS. Meanwhile Rarity got multiple episodes about her expanding her business because Haber we already know she's your fucking favorite goddamn. Likewise, the guy was personally involved with most Spike(and Rarity) episodes going forward. The Pillars were introduced halfway into S7 then once S8 they were almost abandoned entirely giving the impression they never cared about them in the first place. They spend so much time in the last two seasons on the dumb school but it was probably the worst part because it was clear no actual thought was put into it, I mean for Christ's sake they made RD's last episode about the damn school after they had transferred all the responsibilities to Starlight and her staff. They ruined Daring Do in a feeble attempt at depth and """"subversion"""" by having it turn out she was the bad guy the whole time and that her enemies were really just misunderstood guardians, after an episode that deals with the troubles her escapades do. Several races in the first couple seasons like the Buffalo or the Diamond Dogs were neglected and ignored entirely after the first season, yet they felt the Yaks needed so much attention after everyone hated them in their introduction in S5, dragons and griffons actually got more attention but only after introducing their own new characters and leaving most older ones in the bin(Gilda), changelings got a ton of attention but only after they were puked on them and made into hideously garish rainbow bugs by reforming the entire species, Sea Ponies/Hippogriffs got introduced because they evidently really needed to tie the events of the movie into the show.

[HereComesTom 2,271]

I can see how there've been quite a few continuity problems.

To be honest, what I would've liked to see is a season of FiM where they introduce a villain in the season premiere, then the majority of episodes in the season have either the A plot or the B plot driven by the villain's actions, and then the villain gets defeated in the season finale.  There were seasons that began and ended with a villain like 5 and 9, but Starlight and Grogar's actions drove the plots of few, if any, episodes in between.  Having the villains' presence felt throughout the season would've given the season a sense of direction and continuity, while still allowing for plenty of slice-of-life episodes and self-contained stories---I think that sense of direction and continuity would've helped to fix a lot of the problems the OP listed.

I also gotta say, there's little if any continuity between the comics and the TV show.  Sombra got done dirty that way:  he became a regular reformed pony in some of the comics around the time S3 or S4 were out, but he came back as a gaseous villain in S9.

[Ring Team 123]

7 hours ago, HereComesTom said:

I can see how there've been quite a few continuity problems.

To be honest, what I would've liked to see is a season of FiM where they introduce a villain in the season premiere, then the majority of episodes in the season have either the A plot or the B plot driven by the villain's actions, and then the villain gets defeated in the season finale.  There were seasons that began and ended with a villain like 5 and 9, but Starlight and Grogar's actions drove the plots of few, if any, episodes in between.  Having the villains' presence felt throughout the season would've given the season a sense of direction and continuity, while still allowing for plenty of slice-of-life episodes and self-contained stories---I think that sense of direction and continuity would've helped to fix a lot of the problems the OP listed.

I also gotta say, there's little if any continuity between the comics and the TV show.  Sombra got done dirty that way:  he became a regular reformed pony in some of the comics around the time S3 or S4 were out, but he came back as a gaseous villain in S9.

The idea of a villain per season, even though it sounds repetitive, it sounds great. Back when I finished season 2 in 2012 I thought about that idea. It would make perfect sense.

About the comics, I haven't read those yet. They might be good, but I'm one of those who don't need a book or a comic to understand a TV show or a movie. I don't want to have to open a book to learn about my TV show villain, I want the show to speak for itself. This is why I haven't read the prequel comic of the 2017 MLP film.

And about Starlight of the previous comments, I can understand little mistakes. That's why I'm more benevolant with episodes such as One Bad Apple, The ticket master, Ponyville Confidential and Magical Mystery Cure. But when your character (that was a manipulative overpowered villain, I must add) intentionally screws things up many times instead of trying to get better in a TV show about personal growth, you absolutely lost me as a viewer.

For those cases, I'll be like Craig from South Park. She's a jerk, and she doesn't learn from her mistakes.

[Tom Gallagher 33,633]

All these long posts!  I think it’s down to the fact that they kept bringing in new writers who had minimal knowledge of the show’s already established stories and characters. A curse I’ve always noticed with a lot of shows is that as soon as new writers get hired, the show quality drops and/or declines.  I think showrunners need to learn, don’t hire new writers unless you’re absolutely positive that they know what they’re doing!

All things considered, for me it’s still a near perfect show that handled most things incredibly well. 

Edited March 30, 2022 by TomDaBombMLP

[Ring Team 123]

2 hours ago, TomDaBombMLP said:

All these long posts!  I think it’s down to the fact that they kept bringing in new writers who had minimal knowledge of the show’s already established stories and characters. A curse I’ve always noticed with a lot of shows is that as soon as new writers get hired, the show quality drops and/or declines.  I think showrunners need to learn, don’t hire new writers unless you’re absolutely positive that they know what they’re doing!

All things considered, for me it’s still a near perfect show that handled most of things incredibly well. 

I wouldn't say it's perfect, but it's overall a pretty good show, with all its strengths and issues. And most of the time I'd prefer to be positive because it took me several years to understand that the episodes I dislike so much don't invalidate the existence of my favourite episodes.

[Tom Gallagher 33,633]

6 minutes ago, Ring Team said:

I wouldn't say it's perfect, but it's overall a pretty good show, with all its strengths and issues. And most of the time I'd prefer to be positive because it took me several years to understand that the episodes I dislike so much don't invalidate the existence of my favourite episodes.

For me, it’s down to personal impact that makes me love it as much as I do. At the start, after my first watch-through, aside from some dodgy moments in the last two seasons, I thought the whole thing was absolutely perfect. As I grew up a bit and started to acknowledge other fans’ opinions, I noticed the big flaws people have more and more. Before, I was kind of blinded by everything else to really notice. 

But I still don’t really think about those flaws all that much. I’m aware of them way more than I used to be but I don’t let them hinder my enjoyment of the show. The only thing I outright despise is the whole School of Friendship idea. 

[Evil Pink One 13,554]

2 hours ago, TomDaBombMLP said:

For me, it’s down to personal impact that makes me love it as much as I do. At the start, after my first watch-through, aside from some dodgy moments in the last two seasons, I thought the whole thing was absolutely perfect. As I grew up a bit and started to acknowledge other fans’ opinions, I noticed the big flaws people have more and more. Before, I was kind of blinded by everything else to really notice. 

But I still don’t really think about those flaws all that much. I’m aware of them way more than I used to be but I don’t let them hinder my enjoyment of the show. The only thing I outright despise is the whole School of Friendship idea. 

See I knew it... The fandom makes the experience uglier 

[Will Guide 21,374]

4 hours ago, Ring Team said:

I wouldn't say it's perfect, but it's overall a pretty good show, with all its strengths and issues. And most of the time I'd prefer to be positive because it took me several years to understand that the episodes I dislike so much don't invalidate the existence of my favourite episodes.

Exactly

[Will Guide 21,374]

2 hours ago, Kujamih said:

See I knew it... The fandom makes the experience uglier 

Only if you focus on the negative fans within the fandom that literally put the dumb in fandumb. In my opinion that the main reason a controversial episode like Fame and Misfortune needed to exist: to show that there's always an ugly side of any fandom but to always look for more positive people/fans who actually do take away good experiences from what you're trying to share with your media

[Castle Bleck 19,461]

On 2022-03-29 at 9:10 PM, HereComesTom said:

Sombra got done dirty that way:  he became a regular reformed pony in some of the comics around the time S3 or S4 were out, but he came back as a gaseous villain in S9.

Like General Grievous… Clone Wars 2003 was told he'd be a thing in Revenge Of The Sith, and was given permission to introduce him, but wasn't told about his personality. That's why he debuted as an efficient edgelord — then, when ROTS came out, was suddenly a cyborg Snidely Whiplash.

Or Snoke… J.J. Abrams introduced him as a polite, pragmatic enigma (similar to Thrawn and Revan). Then Rian Johnson "subverted" him into a smug, sadistic Hugh Hefner–impersonator. Then Abrams retconned him into a prototype of Dark Empire 2.0.

[SergioFernandez 33]

They originally planned to end the series in season 3. And ever since Faust left the show, they just didn't know what to do and how many more seasons they were going to create. That plus the arrival of new writers who didn't know the lore (or didn't bother to watch the show) made for all these script holes, I think.