AJ and RD elements...

[Sugar Cube 4,843]

ANOTHER one of these topics? Text wall time!

 

I completely disagree that Rainbow Dash is a better fit for honesty. She might be more blunt than Applejack, as she is less hesitant to spare another pony's feelings, but there's a lot more to honesty than just being blunt and outspoken. Sometimes it is better to lie to a friend to avoid hard feelings. Applejack is sincere and self-confident, and she's always very true to herself, which is just one of many forms of honesty. Rainbow Dash on the other hand is a lot more insecure and is nowhere near as true to herself. She's too worried about damaging her "rep" instead of just being herself. Applejack's pride is genuine, whereas Rainbow Dash suffers from false pride. Applejack is thoroughly confident, but Rainbow tends to put up a bravado so she appears strong and confident, despite her true feelings.

 

Honesty also has a lot to do with being fair. When you don't do things fairly, that in itself is dishonesty. For one example, in Super Speedy Cider Squeezy 6000, Rainbow Dash was ready to abandon quality control in order to speed up the cider making process. On the other hand, Applejack was against the idea, and stated that there was no point in winning if they cheated. Which pony do you think is more honest now?

 

The difference between their loyalty, is that Applejack is incredibly stubborn, even more so than Rainbow Dash. And because she is so set in her ways, she has a harder time submitting to another, especially when she feels she is right. That in itself can cause her to be a bit less likely to commit herself to another who she might not agree with. Applejack is someone who would stick to her principles and do what is right before she would blindly devote herself to another. Rainbow Dash is different. Because she is not as true to herself and her principles, and because she is not as stubborn or set in her ways, she has an easier time being fully devoted to another, even breaking some rules along the way. When she was working with Lightning Dust at the Wonderbolts Academy, she went against her will and cut off the other ponies during a flight test. Had it been Applejack in that situation, she would not have done the same, because Applejack will not go against her rules for anyone if she doesn't think it's the right thing to do.

 

However, while I do believe that Rainbow Dash is the best fit for loyalty, Applejack has proven herself to be very loyal too, and she even prides herself on it. She does refer to herself as "The loyalest of friends and most dependable of ponies!" Applejack will certainly stand by any good friend and help them in any way she possibly can.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Sugar Cube

[Lux Klonoa 18]

There's ultimately no need. In the end, at some points in the show so far, pretty much all of the Mane Six has shown each of the five main Element qualities. You just gotta look for them. So really, it doesn't matter.

 

Each may be the strongest to one Element, but there's nothing in the show that says they can't represent the rest of the Elements as well.

 

And we especially haven't seen what happens when one single pony uses all of them at once, especially with the Magic of Friendship active this time.

[NavelColt 22,879]

Its a fact. Doesn't it just feel right that Applejack would be loyal. considering she is a hard worker and loves her family?

 

Rainbow Dash on the other hand... I don't know if she would be suitable for honesty. What do you guys think?

 

Your topic has been merged with another topic we possess, which talks about Rainbow Dash and Applejack, and how their elements correspond to one another :3

[imlizyeah 56]

Rainbow Dash is the element of Loyalty

Applejack is the element of Honesty.

 

Here is why I do not think these ponies represent their elements very well and why, in fact, I believe their elements should be switched.

 

 Rainbow Dash is not loyal. Counltess times throughout the show she demonstrates that she is egotistical and self centered. Often times she cares more about how something will effect her compared to the other ponies or the group as a whole.

In the newest episode when Discord was sick and was looking for a caretaker, Rainbow Dash bolted and left the others to care for him. That's not very loyal of her.

In the bats episode she only cared about the bats' distruction because it affected HER beloved apple cider. That is very self centered and doesn't represent a loyal attitude.

In general, she almost never pitches in to help unless it causes her personal gain.

In the moments where she does demonstrate loyalty I feel it is very forced by the writers and wouldn't occure naturally by a pony with Rainbow Dash's personality.

 

A character more focused on her happiness or well being would fit an honest person better... in the fact that she is more concerned with ponies knowing what she wants... without concern of how her opinion or words might effect them. She is a very blunt pony in general as it is, quick to inform people of how situations effect her personally without apology if she hurts someone's feelings.

 

 

Applejack isn't honest. In the episode where Pinkie might be related to the Apple family, Applejack nondirectly lies to Pinkie about the happy-go-lucky and perfectness of her family through charades and a false attitude.

In the episode where she runs away when she lost the rodeo she lies when she pinkie promises to talk in the morning as well as the countless times she said "nothing is wrong, I just felt like a change of scenery".

I oftentimes notice her say little white lies behind her teeth in order to not hurt somepony's feelings. This shows she is concerned of what she says and how it will make other's feel... but also makes a liar out of her when she does it.

 

In exception to her running away in this episode I believe she is a much more loyal pony, trying to be there for people when they need it.

For example in the dragon code episode she stuck to Spike's wishes despite causing her strife and discomfort which is a great demonstration of loyalty.

and the very start of the series when Twilight is falling and she tells her it will be alright and she (somehow) held her by the hoof represents, in my eyes, loyalty by staying with her and doing what she could to help a little bit more than honesty.

 

 

In an additional thought. Because I think Rainbow Dash so poorly demonstrated loyalty... I feel like Rarity shouldn't be the only pony to be getting crap for not representing her element. XD

 

Any thoughts?

[crazitaco 596]

I always thought the same thing, it would make a lot more sense.

Applejack is the true element of loyalty,because she's extremely loyal to her family.

Rainbow Dash doesn't lie as much as Applejack does. Hell, RD is kinda brutally honest sometimes xD

Also, a bit off topic but i feel Rarity really shoulda stayed the element of inspiration.

Of course, its a bit late to be switching their elements, don't ya think? What with the elements going back into the Magic Plot Device Tree and all...

And it would just be weird to switch elements. How on earth would they even go about doing that?

Edited February 6, 2014 by crazitaco

[Sugar Cube 4,843]

This a really common notion amongst a lot of bronies and I don't see why. I think the ponies have the right elements.

 

A character more focused on her happiness or well being would fit an honest person better... in the fact that she is more concerned with ponies knowing what she wants... without concern of how her opinion or words might effect them. She is a very blunt pony in general as it is, quick to inform people of how situations effect her personally without apology if she hurts someone's feelings.

 

Thing is, bluntness is the only form of honesty in which Rainbow Dash bests Applejack. And even then,

Rainbow Dash doesn't work for honesty because she isn't very honest with herself. Time and again we've seen that she's insecure and because of that she tends to put on a bravado in order to maintain her reputation or to seem braver than she actually is. Being honest with one's self is just as important as not telling lies to others.

 

In addition, Rainbow Dash is much more inclined to cheat. As just one obvious example, it was Rainbow Dash who wanted to skip quality control in order to speed up the cider making process when she and the others were competing against the Flim Flam Brothers. The more honest Applejack opposed that idea; stating that there would be no point if they cheated.

 

Applejack isn't honest. In the episode where Pinkie might be related to the Apple family, Applejack nondirectly lies to Pinkie about the happy-go-lucky and perfectness of her family through charades and a false attitude.

In the episode where she runs away when she lost the rodeo she lies when she pinkie promises to talk in the morning as well as the countless times she said "nothing is wrong, I just felt like a change of scenery".

 

Applejack wasn't lying to Pinkie Pie. She was just trying to make sure that her family was on their best behavior because she wanted to make a good impression in front of Pinkie Pie so that she would be proud to be part of the family. You know what they say, first impressions are lasting impressions. I'll give you that she lied about the change in scenery in The Last Roundup, but in her mind she didn't lie to Pinkie Pie about telling the truth at breakfast because she didn't show up for it.

 

I oftentimes notice her say little white lies behind her teeth in order to not hurt somepony's feelings. This shows she is concerned of what she says and how it will make other's feel... but also makes a liar out of her when she does it.

 

She's not perfect. Making "little white lies" does not make her dishonest. If that were the case, the concept of honesty would not even exist. Everyone lies at some point. Applejack is a great character because she's tactful about what she should or should not say. Sparing the feelings of her friends the few times that she has makes her a much more complaisant character rather than ultra aggressive like Rainbow Dash.

 

In exception to her running away in this episode I believe she is a much more loyal pony, trying to be there for people when they need it.

For example in the dragon code episode she stuck to Spike's wishes despite causing her strife and discomfort which is a great demonstration of loyalty.

and the very start of the series when Twilight is falling and she tells her it will be alright and she (somehow) held her by the hoof represents, in my eyes, loyalty by staying with her and doing what she could to help a little bit more than honesty.

 

You are correct in saying all of this. Applejack has demonstrated loyalty many times throughout the series so you won't receive any argument from me on that. There have been numerous instances where Rainbow Dash wasn't loyal (you mentioned Three's a Crowd for example) but episodes like Wonderbolts Academy demonstrated just how loyal she can really be. She was willing to give up on her life's dream of being a Wonderbolt if it meant being reckless and putting others at risk. I'd be lying if I said Rainbow Dash stood out to me as being more loyal than Applejack just by looking at the many episodes where AJ is loyal and RD isn't so I'll let a more Rainbow Dash-knowledgeable person address your first few paragraphs.

 

Applejack, Rainbow Dash, and Rarity have all been criticized for not properly utilizing their elements but they'd be rather one-dimensional and unrealistic if they never made mistakes regarding their own virtues.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Sugar Cube

[duidamasterXD 9,627]

 

 

In the newest episode when Discord was sick and was looking for a caretaker, Rainbow Dash bolted and left the others to care for him. That's not very loyal of her

 

If anything is to be blamed on being needed by the writing, I feel like this scene should be a prime example. It felt like them just needing to get the rest of the Mane Six out of the way for whatever reason. Not the most loyal thing to be sure, though it can be seen as somewhat in character since she seems to be even less comfortable around Discord than everyone else.

 

 

 

In the bats episode she only cared about the bats' distruction because it affected HER beloved apple cider. That is very self centered and doesn't represent a loyal attitude.

 

Played for comic effect, and she expressed sympathy at AJ's having to give up her chances at competing in whatever apple contest she was talking about. Applejack is her friend and she's helped her with farm related stuff loads of times.

 

 

 

In general, she almost never pitches in to help unless it causes her personal gain.

 

She dropped everything to follow Spike across the country to make sure he was safe along with Twilight and Rarity, willingly agreed to be Scootaloo's role model and to provide care for her, and again dropped everything to go get her when she wasn't going to compete with her fellow crusaders. Just thought of those off the top of my head, and I'm sure I can come up with plenty more. Dash doesn't need profit to help people, she does it because she has a good heart.

 

 

 

In the moments where she does demonstrate loyalty I feel it is very forced by the writers and wouldn't occure naturally by a pony with Rainbow Dash's personality.

 

Can't argue with an opinion, but it does frustrate me to see you writing off several of her best moments as out of character.

 

And to build off what Sugar Cube said above, Rainbow Dash is not more honest than Applejack. Bluntness does not equal honesty for one, and for another, Dash has this front that she feels she needs to keep up. That's why she won't admit she's scared/express affection for her tortoise/admit she likes a freaking book in public. I feel Rainbow Dash is if anything, not very true to herself a lot of the time, and part of her growing up in the show has been being more comfortable in expressing herself. Hardly something an Element of Honesty should need to do, I wouldn't think.

 

Not saying Dash has never been untrue to her element, but I feel that she's proven herself more than worthy of it in episodes like Wonderbolt Academy, The Last Roundup, and with all the times she's been there for her friends. AJ is pretty dang loyal herself and I feel she could qualify for the job too. Still, I don't feel that that makes Dash less of a character.

[pinkiefan1287 610]

Why do people still complain about this?

 

I mean it's not like there is away to change the 2 elements. Besides the elements are long gone. Sorry but this kind of topic is just getting old.

[ghostfacekiller39 23,860]

Nahh. It's your opinion, but let me tell ya why I think you're wrong w/o sending you a wall of text

 

RD is very loyal, and very blunt; bluntness doesn't always make honesty, though.

 

AJ is very honest, and very family oriented; family oriented...ness does not always make loyalty, though.

 

Rarity is best pony.

 

Yeahh, and while Rares, AJ, and RD do get criticized for "not living up to their elements," if one were to look into those criticisms they'd see that it was just nit-picky bullshit and that they live up to their elements far more than credited for

Edited February 6, 2014 by ghostfacekiller39

[Empress Pinkamena 41]

 Rainbow Dash is not loyal. Counltess times throughout the show she demonstrates that she is egotistical and self centered. Often times she cares more about how something will effect her compared to the other ponies or the group as a whole.

In the newest episode when Discord was sick and was looking for a caretaker, Rainbow Dash bolted and left the others to care for him. That's not very loyal of her.

In the bats episode she only cared about the bats' distruction because it affected HER beloved apple cider. That is very self centered and doesn't represent a loyal attitude.

In general, she almost never pitches in to help unless it causes her personal gain.

In the moments where she does demonstrate loyalty I feel it is very forced by the writers and wouldn't occure naturally by a pony with Rainbow Dash's personality.

You are seriously mischaracterizing Rainbow Dash.  She's not that selfish, and has been loyal countless times.

She stood up to Fluttershy in the past, didn't leave her real friends for Gilda, instead defending them, rescued Rarity even though Rarity made her already bad situation a lot worse, and didn't even have the Sonic Rainboom in her mind at that point, was only defeated by Discord when having her loyalties divided (She was still being loyal to her home, Cloudsdale, and if she chose her friends, then she would be betraying them, plus the fact she had no reason to believe Discord wasn't doing those things.  She also was the one most focused on getting AJ back in The Last Roundup, and felt the most betrayed by Applejack, and she only abandoned Rarity and Pinkie because if she got them, then they would lose AJ.  Besides, there were towns nearby, they would be fine, but Applejack could be gone for a LONG time.  She also still helped Applejack in Super Cider Squeezy 6000, even though she really, really wanted cider, and the Flim Flam Brothers would have gotten her some.  When they won, she defended AJ even though cider was guaranteed at this point.  She was also focused on getting Fluttershy to fly in Hurricane Fluttershy, not because she needed her, because honestly, she didn't, but because she wanted her, as her friend, to overcome her fears and be with her, finally doing her duty.  In Wonderbolts Academy, she gave up her dream, which she talked about since the first episode, for her friends, and stayed loyal to both her friends, and her values.

 

A character more focused on her happiness or well being would fit an honest person better... in the fact that she is more concerned with ponies knowing what she wants... without concern of how her opinion or words might effect them. She is a very blunt pony in general as it is, quick to inform people of how situations effect her personally without apology if she hurts someone's feelings.

 

...That's bluntness, not the honesty that's needed for friendship.  Rainbow can be very ingenuine, hiding her fears and insecurities under her tough persona and bravado.  She is often hiding her true feelings in fear of being seen as less than the best.  That's not honesty.  Besides, like I said, these are the elements of keeping a friendship together.  Bluntness makes you more prone to being an asshole.

 

 

Applejack isn't honest. In the episode where Pinkie might be related to the Apple family, Applejack nondirectly lies to Pinkie about the happy-go-lucky and perfectness of her family through charades and a false attitude.

In the episode where she runs away when she lost the rodeo she lies when she pinkie promises to talk in the morning as well as the countless times she said "nothing is wrong, I just felt like a change of scenery".

I oftentimes notice her say little white lies behind her teeth in order to not hurt somepony's feelings. This shows she is concerned of what she says and how it will make other's feel... but also makes a liar out of her when she does it.

Yeah, she sometimes lies, but even the most honest people do sometimes lie.  Besides, most of the time, she's either REALLY terrible at it, lies by omission, or makes logical loopholes in what she says, which are how honest people often lie.  She's also a lot more genuine than Rainbow, not constantly saying "OMGIMSOAWESOME" and not constantly hiding behind bravado.  She also doesn't put herself on the extreme pedestal Dash always does.  Is always honest, even in this way?  Of course not, she constantly lied to herself about her abilities in Applebuck Season, and did try to paint an unrealistic picture of her family in Pinkie Apple Pie, but all of them sometimes break their elements, and AJ is still much more genuine most of the time.

In the end, yeah, they sometimes break their elements.

Twilight fails at magic a lot, and when it comes to friendship, spent a long time learning about it and screwing up at it.

Fluttershy has been a jerk multiple times, and even seems to have a bit of a manipulative side.

Rarity has been greedy countless times.

Pinkie can get very depressed, and often makes others annoyed instead of making them laugh.

Does that make them unworthy of their elements?  Of course not.  Ponies are flawed, and they can't always live up to them, but they stick to them when it's important.

[hawkflame 3,310]

People seem to conflate honesty with literal truth telling, and that's not really the case.  There are other aspects of honesty to be considered, not the least important of which is the idea of *integrity*.  That means doing things the right way, living up to your promises, and overall trustworthiness.  AJ is the one who insists on creating cider the *right* way; Dash wants to skimp on the quality control just to win.  AJ wants to make sure to keep her promise to send money to fix town hall in The Last Roundup.  And while yes she broke the Pinkie Promise (or at least got off on a technicality) but she felt pretty much backed into a corner there. 

 

Plus AJ is a TERRIBLE liar. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's gotta count for something.

 

As for Dash, Yes she's self absorbed and cocky.  But like how Rarity's vanity and self absorbed moments don't take away from her generosity, Dash's faults don't take away from her loyalty.  Look at episodes like the end of Griffon the Brush off, May the Best Pet Win, Wonderbolts Academy, or Sleepless in Ponyville where she shows off real loyalty.

[Megas 27,593]

.In the newest episode when Discord was sick and was looking for a caretaker, Rainbow Dash bolted and left the others to care for him. That's not very loyal of her.

In the bats episode she only cared about the bats' distruction because it affected HER beloved apple cider. That is very self centered and doesn't represent a loyal attitude.

Those were simple gags plain and simple. Sometimes I feel that the fandom has a tendency to take simple gags and jokes way to seriously 

 

I kinda wish this argument would die already, RD and AJ has proven countless times that they are great, although not perfect, representatives of their elements

[Jammo 986]

I don't think the folks at DHX could see ahead at how much these characters would evolve and grow past their original concepts. Maybe loyalty for RD and honesty for AJ made sense when they were conceived but as their stories were told, their traits sort of homogenized. Both AJ and RD show each others elements more than their own but RD and AJ are already both honest and loyal to begin with so I feel that's why they've swapped. Unfocused writing for the sake of good stories and jokes led them slightly astray.

[NavelColt 22,879]

Rainbow Dash is the element of Loyalty

Applejack is the element of Honesty.

 

Here is why I do not think these ponies represent their elements very well and why, in fact, I believe their elements should be switched.

 

Serious Cheese Facecord here to say your topic's been merged with a past one discussing the same thing :3

[Legacy Dash 438]

I'd agree with this, but sadly, it is a bit late now. What's done is done.

 

I guess the best that can be done is the crew start paying more attention to this.

[True Rarity 1,240]

I've realized that, too. Rainbow Dash is extremely brash. (Hey, that rhymes!) Recently I introduced a friend to MLP, and one time (I think it was when Twilight said Rarity was not a laughingstock and Rainbow Dash countered, "She kind of is!") she laughed at Rainbow and said, "I love how honest she is!"

 

The light went on, and something clicked. Rainbow Dash is so blunt that she doesn't exactly care about anypony else's feelings when she describes them. AJ has been shown to be extremely honest, but she has also tried to lie - because of her own loyalty. Maybe at the end of Season 4, the writers can discover that and do something to switch it around. But they probably won't.

 

Besides, in the second episode, when AJ said "I promise that what I'm saying is the honest truth. Let go, and you'll be safe.", it wasn't exactly a good representation of honesty. More like trust.

[Totally Ducklett 181]

Well, it may seem that they actually perform each other's elements, but this may seem that way because Hasbro makes the ponies face situations that are kind of like weaknesses to their elements. For example, in Rarity Takes Manehattan, she faces trouble because of her generosity when her ideas are stolen. In Rainbow Falls, Rainbow Dash faces trouble because she isn't loyal to her team (until the end, where she fixes everything!)....you get the idea. Well, that's what I believe

[Empress Pinkamena 41]

I've realized that, too. Rainbow Dash is extremely brash. (Hey, that rhymes!) Recently I introduced a friend to MLP, and one time (I think it was when Twilight said Rarity was not a laughingstock and Rainbow Dash countered, "She kind of is!") she laughed at Rainbow and said, "I love how honest she is!"

 

The light went on, and something clicked. Rainbow Dash is so blunt that she doesn't exactly care about anypony else's feelings when she describes them. AJ has been shown to be extremely honest, but she has also tried to lie - because of her own loyalty. Maybe at the end of Season 4, the writers can discover that and do something to switch it around. But they probably won't.

 

Besides, in the second episode, when AJ said "I promise that what I'm saying is the honest truth. Let go, and you'll be safe.", it wasn't exactly a good representation of honesty. More like trust.

Like I said before, Rainbow may be more blunt, but she's a lot less genuine, and hides behind bravado.  She puts herself on a high pedestal, and masks her insecurities and weakness with boasting.  She is also a lot more willing to cheat than Applejack, who only started cheating after being tired of Rainbow's antics.  That doesn't seem like a very honest mare to me.

Applejack is horrible at lying, and is a lot more genuine, not constantly hiding behind an inflated ego, not constantly lying about her true feelings.  She's not always honest this way, but even then, she breaks her element no more than anypony else.  Also, when she lies, she's either horrible at it, lies by omission, or is making logical loopholes so it's technically the truth, which is how honest people like her lie.