Leaving civilisation behind

[Paianis 488]

This thread has become a load of Bridle Gossip (no kidding, the argument at that start in Sugarcube Corner relate heavily to this one).

 

I guess we all have our preferences. I feel I have about enough evidence to support my point, but if you want to hide behind the cover then so be it. I'm done with this pointless rant.

[LunarWave 106]

I guess we all have our preferences. I feel I have about enough evidence to support my point, but if you want to hide behind the cover then so be it. I'm done with this pointless rant.

 

How ironic...   :comeatus:

Hiding behind cover while claiming others "hiding behind cover" 

[Paianis 488]

I think alot of people misunderstood me the first time round.

 

I wasn't talking about me as an individual leaving civilisation. It is something that we will all have to do someday because our current way of life is unsustainable. Any way of life that isn't in balance with nature is destined to die or fade away, we know this because of the past. Look what happened to the Ancient Egyptians, Greeks, Mayans, Romans...they all deteriorated because they tried to control the landbase and weren't willing to let it support them naturally.

 

Today we're in a dangerous situation because soon, the entire human race will be civilised. I'm sure many of you would hate to go down with the ship. We're using up resources at an unprecedented rate. There are no solutions for this that will enable the continuation of this lifestyle, it is just over.

 

Indigenous peoples/traditional communities are only struggling now because their environment has been compromised by the modern world. Eighty percent of rivers don't support life anymore, due to contamination, agriculture or dams. Our forests are rapidly disappearing. And that's before I get on to things like alcohol and drug abuse...

 

We don't have enough statistics for tribes before contact with the modern world, that make arguments about the mortality rate and life expectancy convincing. It is also impossible to obtain them without affecting their way of life in some way. Until we find a way to do that, I suggest we all build a serious movement to shift gears back to where we should be.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Paspie

[Khaoios 1,970]

This might not be too relevant but I usually wish I lived in Atlantis. And could breath water

Now that.........I would love to live in,

[LunarWave 106]

I think alot of people misunderstood me the first time round.

 

I wasn't talking about me as an individual leaving civilisation. It is something that we will all have to do someday because our current way of life is unsustainable. Any way of life that isn't in balance with nature is destined to die or fade away, we know this because of the past. Look what happened to the Ancient Egyptians, Greeks, Mayans, Romans...they all deteriorated because they tried to control the landbase and weren't willing to let it support them naturally.

 

Today we're in a dangerous situation because soon, the entire human race will be civilised. I'm sure many of you would hate to go down with the ship. We're using up resources at an unprecedented rate. There are no solutions for this that will enable the continuation of this lifestyle, it is just over.

 

Indigenous peoples/traditional communities are only struggling now because their environment has been compromised by the modern world. Eighty percent of rivers don't support life anymore, due to contamination, agriculture or dams. Our forests are rapidly disappearing. And that's before I get on to things like alcohol and drug abuse...

 

We don't have enough statistics for tribes before contact with the modern world, that make arguments about the mortality rate and life expectancy convincing. It is also impossible to obtain them without affecting their way of life in some way. Until we find a way to do that, I suggest we all build a serious movement to shift gears back to where we should be.

 

Granted, some aspects of the current life are not sustainable. 

But widespread tech advancement and upgrade to nuclear & renewables (until we get commercially-viable fusion) combined with closed cycle production can very much fix that. 

Tech is capable of fixing everything. But apparently human society in it's current form are still cavemen with a fresh coat of paint.

Societal order it what' really got to change. Political systems are horrendously inefficient and most people prefer to stick the head in the sand and keep buying crap they dont need on the money they dont have in pursuit of whatever the buck they pursue with it. 

 

And I did understand you, as I already said what will happen. 

80% child death rate, and 200 million maximum human population on earth.

Ancient civilizations collapse was not because of what you said. Go read some history books, not enviromentalist blabber. 

"Naturally", you will support population of wolves and rodents. With your own carcass.

 

Resources are not used, they are processed. They dont really go anywhere. They can be gathered and re-used in quite a few cases. 

Out lifestyles are not over. They will sure change after a few more 

 

Go educate yourself. SERIOUSLY. Drug, alcohol abuse were here before what you call civilization. And they are not the issues you will solve with going "natural". 

You will actually make them even more widespread this way. 

 

Statictics.. did you do your own research or are just quoting someone? Links please. 

Well, actually I had a sociology class today aaand..  we were talking about progress of a social institute we all know as family. 

TL;DR: before 19th century average life expectancy was 25 years. People retiring now would've outlived several generations of those.. "humans" 

This is result of both archeological studies and studies of the tribes in the last century or two. Studies will not have effect on the life expectations at all (unless you shoot them ofc) 

 

Until you do more research on the energetics, modern industry, society and on whatever else you're trying to prove here and get the figures here - I'll consider this debate fruitless. 

[Paianis 488]

But widespread tech advancement and upgrade to nuclear & renewables (until we get commercially-viable fusion) combined with closed cycle production can very much fix that. 

Tech is capable of fixing everything.

How do you think we're going to achieve all these advancements without oil?

Drug, alcohol abuse were here before what you call civilization.

Anything to back that up? I don't think alcohol even existed before civilisation, we just consumed resources as they were.

 

Weston Price was one of the first people to study and document the health of indigenous peoples, back in the early 20th century when they were still in abundance. In his Nutrition and Physical Degeneration book, he concluded that they "had unbelievable endurance, erect postures and cheerful personalities. They were found to have excellent bone structure and well developed jaw and teeth free from decay. In case after case, Price found no incidence of cancer, ulcers, tuberculosis, heart or kidney disease, high blood pressure, muscular dystrophy or sclerosis or cerebral palsy."

 

He also found that primitive societies had "no psychiatrists, no crime, no prisons, no mental illness, alcoholism or drug addiction. Every baby was nursed by its mother, and there were no neglected children. In other words, physical health went hand in hand with mental and emotional health."

 

For now I fail to understand your sentiment.

Edited March 17, 2014 by Paspie

[IridscentNionios 1,420]

I wasn't talking about me as an individual leaving civilisation. It is something that we will all have to do someday because our current way of life is unsustainable. Any way of life that isn't in balance with nature is destined to die or fade away, we know this because of the past. Look what happened to the Ancient Egyptians, Greeks, Mayans, Romans...they all deteriorated because they tried to control the landbase and weren't willing to let it support them naturally.

I am from Greece. So we deteriorated because we tried to control the landbase? Oh and the Roman Invasion, the Splitting of the Macedonian Empire into many parts, the deterioration of the political system... those have nothing to do with Ancient Greek's deterioration right? Please do not speak about things you do not know... people might take your lack of knowledge personally... especially if they know their own country's history. 

 

The only time where i call recall nature taking a blow was in the civil war between the Athenians and Spartans. 

 

How do you think we're going to achieve all these advancements without oil?

You're so stuck on oill... How about biodiesel and electricity, and whatever else? We can produce our own oil-substitutes if we want to. It will take time, and it will be hard to change but... the thing is that the biggest problem isn't the effectiveness of such resources... it's the acceptance of the change... and any energy change, or any change at all IS NOT EASY.

 

Today we're in a dangerous situation because soon, the entire human race will be civilised.

Correction... everyone IS civilized in a way. Some are just on a smaller scale. Let me analyse the word so you can understand... A civilian is one who lives IN A CITY. The fact that tribes are smaller versions of a city doesn't change that.

 

I think you are misinterpreting the term "CIVILIZATION". Civilization and being civilized is not the behavior of those who live in the Metropolis. We have equated wrongly the terms of "Barbarian" with the words savage, brutal, EEEEEEEEEEVIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLL. The word civilization and civilized has become equated with a higher standard of behavior... the more civilized you are the more likely you are to being a noble. I really hate it when people say "Be civilized" instead of saying "Be considerate and kind". 

 

Also... how is it "bad" that the infuence of someone overshadows someone else? Isn't this the natural way of life? I mean sure we shouldn't push our notion of "civilization" on others but aiding such people with medicine, easing their suffering with hospitals... that's something you just can't deny doing! We can't just deny AIDS victims treatments in poorer countries just because we don't want to impose our civilization upon them! That's ridiculous! 

 

However we do need to cut down on the cutting of trees in the Amazon, we need to stop our interference on oil-owning countries, and stop the madness that is on Africa. Seriously now... the whole area seems like one big mess. I mean companies dumping their stuff at them... stuff no longer usable... The problem is we don't promote the longecity of our stuff and end up tossing our computers, phones, e.t.c. to these countries when they can no longer be used. We don't promote recycling enough. 

 

 

I'm sure many of you would hate to go down with the ship. We're using up resources at an unprecedented rate. There are no solutions for this that will enable the continuation of this lifestyle, it is just over.

With that notion we should all abandon the current system and go in the jungle... yea no... The thing is that while the lifestyle is wrong it isn't entirely doomed. It can change... it can evolve... it HAS evolved... we have reached this point for a reason, and we deemed this as a total correct because well... it was correct at that time. Factors change... people change... lifestyle CAN change. Going back to the jungle is not the only solution.

 

 

Indigenous peoples/traditional communities are only struggling now because their environment has been compromised by the modern world. Eighty percent of rivers don't support life anymore, due to contamination, agriculture or dams. Our forests are rapidly disappearing. And that's before I get on to things like alcohol and drug abuse...

Okay first of all there are those who oppose it... join them. About the second part... it's the farmers fault... the result of lakes stinking because of the large amount of plant-plankton on them is the result of overly fertilizing your farms and the fact that they think "The more fertilizer, the merrier." Well those who produce them don't care that much but there are guidelines to the dosage you must use according to the soil you have... it's not the problem of today's system... it's the problem of our farmers no doing their job right and not being educated enough to do it properly. 

 

Alchohol and drugs... they are everywhere. Every culture, civilization, or such has a certain substance they use to force themselves to feel better. And in fact alchohol is a problem not by itself... but the people who drink it have the problem. The fact that they don't know, or don't care about the measure is something that shows the lack of education they have... Something that of course comes from... civilization? Or whatever... call it however you like. But you see the farmers that are further from the city are causing more harm because of this.

 

 

We don't have enough statistics for tribes before contact with the modern world, that make arguments about the mortality rate and life expectancy convincing. It is also impossible to obtain them without affecting their way of life in some way. Until we find a way to do that, I suggest we all build a serious movement to shift gears back to where we should be.

Since we have studies about the mortality rates of ancient civilizations before ourselves it is most likely that we do. Also... in most cases we don't need to actually interfere with what we are studying to actually study it. Take the moon for example... Oh and we also have "simulations" in case you didn't notice. There are numerous tests that serve as exercise to prepare us for what we are about to face. Also... things like that are called "foresight". Or whatever i might not have spelled this correctly. Please go out there and find those things... it's not so hard.

[LunarWave 106]

Weston Price was one of the first people to study and document the health of indigenous peoples, back in the early 20th century when they were still in abundance. In his Nutrition and Physical Degeneration book, he concluded that they "had unbelievable endurance, erect postures and cheerful personalities. They were found to have excellent bone structure and well developed jaw and teeth free from decay. In case after case, Price found no incidence of cancer, ulcers, tuberculosis, heart or kidney disease, high blood pressure, muscular dystrophy or sclerosis or cerebral palsy.

 

Yeah. Except he ignored the majority of those people, looking for healthy ones. 

How do you think we're going to achieve all these advancements without oil?

Anything to back that up? I don't think alcohol even existed before civilisation, we just consumed resources as they were.

 

For now I fail to understand your sentiment.

 

Oh I dont know.. EVERYTHING ELSE? 

We already have nuclears, Russia and several other countries are looking into breeder designs that can power the humanity for millenia (assuming the projected current rate of energy demand) just by themselves. We have geothermal energy, we have wind, solar, tidal and completely bonkers amounts of natural gas. Not the the most convenient forms but right now oil companies are just burning it up as a waste product.   

There will be enough oil for chemical industry long after all easy oil is burned up. 

 

Google "alcohol beverages". It's so stupidly simple I'm not going to do it for you. 

 

Well, it's your problem. Actually no, your problem you're not even trying to get what we're talking about. 

[Paianis 488]

There's no need to be judgemental or critical of anyone you don't agree with, right now you seem to be more concerned about my opinions than you are about your own. Besides your attitude shows that your facts cannot stand on their own and need the support of an arrogant individual.

 

I know there isn't an awful lot to chill about but it would be beneficial to take a few steps back and have a refresh look at well, the entire world. The reality is we have no idea how long oil, gas, nuclear and other sources will last, how dependant we'll be on them in a few centuries time, or even whether we'll hit 'peak moment'. But it's important to have something in mind if there are huge problems and Earth becomes uninhabitable for most of us.

[Scootalove 10,684]

If you feel that you would want to leave civilization behind, then you could be able to see what the perspective for other tribes was when they isolated themselves and focused on other things.

[SCS 7,444]

Hi there , , and @LunarWave. I noticed that your correspondence in this thread is getting a little heated, and is even becoming borderline inflammatory at parts. I need to remind you guys that abusive behavior is not welcome here. 
 
Opinions are just opinions. Debating them is fine, but insulting each other over them is not. No matter how much you dislike someone's opinion, that is not grounds for being abusive toward them. None of you have truly treated each other abusively yet, but I can see this discussion heading in that direction.

Please be more respectful toward each other.

[Revy ~ Two Hands 862]

Am I the only pony who would see the break down of civilisation be like fallout new Vegas:)

 

I would probably become an insane murderer who.kills for fun as well as to steal. Also I would hoard anything useful. I would become a leader of sorts, unofficially a leader.

 

I would impose my will and all would love me or fear me.

[K.K. Slider 391]

Hey Paspie, there was this smart teacher called Saloth Sar who had similar ideas. He is better known by the name Pol Pot. Once he seized power in Cambodia, he emptied all the cities and sent them to work in the fields/woods. His objective was the make Cambodia entirely self-sufficent, which is an utterly impossible task. In the end, society broke down, millions died of famine (horribly inefficient farming incapable of producing enough food...no chemicals to make enough fertilizer, no machines, etc., tons of inexperienced people doing the work)/disease (couldn't produce their own medicine)/murder (see S-21 in Phnom Penh), and the entire country was turned upside down in a matter of a few years. About 1 in 4 people died during this time. To this day the country hasn't entirely recovered, but having been there, I must say now they have their freedom, market economy, and urban lives back, they're doing much better these days. Concidence?

Another thing I noticed while there is most rural folk/tribals aspire to send their children to the cities for education and work. While I was spending time in the villages, most people were young kids, babies, older folk, and mothers. There's a widely held perception that backbreaking labor in the field isn't all it's made out to be. Also having picked apples, peaches, etc. on orchids, I wonder why?

Edited March 19, 2014 by K.K. Slider

[LunarWave 106]

There's no need to be judgemental or critical of anyone you don't agree with, right now you seem to be more concerned about my opinions than you are about your own. Besides your attitude shows that your facts cannot stand on their own and need the support of an arrogant individual.

 

The reality is we have no idea how long oil, gas, nuclear and other sources will last, how dependant we'll be on them in a few centuries time, or even whether we'll hit 'peak moment'. But it's important to have something in mind if there are huge problems and Earth becomes uninhabitable for most of us.

 

You have not commented on majority of my points, preferring to bury your face in the sand of ignorance. 

The only thing this shows is that you want to undermine my opinions with claiming them invalid because of lack of study on your side. 

 

 We do have. Oil peak is already passed. If earth will become inhabitable, that would not be because of normal human activity. DYOFR. 

Edited March 18, 2014 by LunarWave