Why is "Its for kids" being used as a cop out?

[Thespian 78]

Because the MLP writing team and Hasbro have to play a very careful game regarding the show. If they start adding things like death/abuse/sexuality/insert topic here then you have to realize that you will start to make some people mad. Maybe the brown family doesnt want their daughter to know about sexual abuse. They complain to hasbro and it costs them a customer. Other people will start to say that the brony community is to blame by making the show too scary for the little children who are the intended audience. Hasbro knows that they can get more money from the children and their parents then they can from the bronies. So, instead of potentially making their show a broader demographic and risking their necks, they would rather keep things just the way they are and still make bank. Bronies are satisfied enough that they will stay and children won't potentially be harmed. It is all business. 

[Windseeker 546]

None of those shows you listed in the OP (except Adventure Time) are better examples of tackling complex problems than what is displayed in FiM. Not to mention the fact that none of those shows have anything to do with the harmonious friendship theme that My Little Pony displays.

[Fractured 2,684]

Then by Dr. Wolf's logic, Hasbro has to be the biggest hypocrites on the planet. They don't want tackle themes like death, yet they have the Autobots running around killing Decepticons in Transformers Prime. I'm not asking for MLP to become Transformers, but if a 22 minute adaptation of a boys toy can tackle death, there is no excuse as to why girls are not allowed to be exposed to death as well. 

That's more because there's a stigma surrounding robots... it's perfectly okay for them to die, brutally, because they're not human. Take Justice League(the tv show), for instance: you'll never see Superman kill a human being, but give him a robot, even a humanoid one with speech and original thought(ala braniac), and watch him tear it to pieces. Same goes with the undead; the idea that it's not human subconsciously draws away some of the the sensitivity... at least, that's what people believe.

[TheMisterManGuy 344]

Because the MLP writing team and Hasbro have to play a very careful game regarding the show. If they start adding things like death/abuse/sexuality/insert topic here then you have to realize that you will start to make some people mad. Maybe the brown family doesnt want their daughter to know about sexual abuse. They complain to hasbro and it costs them a customer. Other people will start to say that the brony community is to blame by making the show too scary for the little children who are the intended audience. Hasbro knows that they can get more money from the children and their parents then they can from the bronies. So, instead of potentially making their show a broader demographic and risking their necks, they would rather keep things just the way they are and still make bank. Bronies are satisfied enough that they will stay and children won't potentially be harmed. It is all business. 

I understand they need to keep the primary target demographic in mind. But I don't want sexual abuse in MLP either. I would like them to at least explain the fate of Applejack's parents. 8 year old Suzz won't be offended if the writers are careful.

[Thespian 78]

I understand they need to keep the primary target demographic in mind. But I don't want sexual abuse in MLP either. I would like them to at least explain the fate of Applejack's parents. 8 year old Suzz won't be offended if the writers are careful.

True, certain topics are easier to talk about than others, but  if those kids are anything like me when i was a kid, once I really started to learn and examine death, it scared me and scarred me for life. I still have a hard time dealing with real death. Killing someone in a game is fine for some reason. But once you start to examine the fact that someone you love and hold dear is gone forever and that one day it will happen to you too... well I personally would rather me explain that to my child than some cartoon show.

 

Don't get me wrong, I would love if MLP tackle harder issues. I'm just thinking about what the less accepting people would do and how it would effect the future of the show. I'd rather play safe than have any kind of negative backlash.

[pony.colin 156]

Then by Dr. Wolf's logic, Hasbro has to be the biggest hypocrites on the planet. They don't want tackle themes like death, yet they have the Autobots running around killing Decepticons in Transformers Prime. I'm not asking for MLP to become Transformers, but if a 22 minute adaptation of a boys toy can tackle death, there is no excuse as to why girls are not allowed to be exposed to death as well. 

 

Haven't watched that series, so can't say much.  Does it actually tackle death much on that show? Or is it subtly hidden in the background?

I wouldn't really be surprised about that, I would chalk that up to double standards in what is "intended for boys" entertainment.   I'm not taking the time to read through deeply, somepony else can go ahead though.

 

 

Most people use "it's for kids" because in a lot of cases a lot of the stuff bronies ask for to see in this show is either unnecessary, or just don't work for the show.

 

I'm not against seeing some topics like death(since plenty of kid's shows have done it in the past) or the topic of homosexuality(not many shows do this, but I think kid's need to be aware of it as long as it's taken seriously. The only show I can think of that does take it seriously is Sailor Moon, and whether that's a kid's show or not is debatable).However a lot of things some people in the fandom has a knack for just sounds very out of place for the show, usually things they want only to fulfill their sick shipping fantasies, or complex themes that are honestly just unfit for the show

 

 

On the topic of homosexuality:

Yeah, but Sailor Moon is an anime.  Animes are treated differently, I figure at least.  I have no idea what age group/target audience the original Sailor Moon series was geared towards to in Japan.  Some lazy looking up puts Sailor Moon in the shoujo genre, intended for ages between 13-17, mainly a female audience.  It could get away with such topics at home in Japanese culture.  But when it got dubbed by DiC/Cloverway/Optimum Production, Sailor Moon went through some infamous Bowdlerization for it's English American dub.  Because they're cousins afterall .....

Seems legit

 

On the topic of death:

Same thing I've already said.  I can only guess, it would be extremely rare of Hasbro to let that one slide, but it must be done in a delicate, tasteful and understanding manner that doesn't just senselessly throw in death but makes a lesson out of it too (it's really possible to do, but I don't see Hasbro wanting to push the pony IP that far and they are probably too scared of needless backlash if done poorly, other IPs are different in their context).

Edited July 19, 2014 by pony.colin

[Dark Qiviut 22,510]

The video links @@Wind Chaser published explain it very well, but I'll reiterate and also add more to the discussion.

 

As far as the show is concerned, it's caught between a rock and a hard place. Obviously, DHX wants to continue one of its most important themes when it comes to TV-Y and feminist entertainment (subversion of feminine stereotypes) via the concepts and themes presented in various episodes. Bridle Gossip, Hurricane Fluttershy, One Bad Apple, Flight to the Finish, etc. cover very deep, mature themes that you typically won't find in any entertainment show aside from educational ones like Sesame Street, Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood, and Arthur. (As far as genre is concerned, despite not being rated E/I anymore, it's still an educational cartoon.)

 

But there are very big problems.

1. Since Tales was discontinued, Hasbro put MLP in "play-it-safe" mode to an overprotective degree and hasn't relinquished it. You can see that in G3 and G3.5; Hasbro really meddled in the episodes and movies during that generation, and it showed via the antifeminist archetypes and stereotypes, especially in specials like A Very Minty Christmas and Princess Promenande. There was nothing for G3 to work on and make it breathe and bold for young girls. They had to be stuck with the lazy, corporate dreck at its worst just to pander to both Hasbro's bottom line and little girls (and parents). Besides the animation, there's nothing to like about it, and it's responsible for putting MLP on life support. G3 and G3.5 damaged MLP so extensively, even though FIM revitalized it, the negative impressions remain, and it might never fully recover.
   
   FIM was a step to cross those boundaries, and they did in some capacity. Lively characters. A great world to build. Conflicts and morals everyone can relate to (when it works). When the E/I rating was scrapped, the team was able to approach conflicts much better without having an extra government rating breathing above. This is especially the case for not only season two, but also the fourth. Many mature themes were explored last season, and it's also the most mature season of the show.
   1. Flight to the Finish: Exploring how physical disadvantages shouldn't interfere in doing something you're not only proud of, but also embracing your own identity. As what Dash said to Scootaloo, Dash is Dash; Scootaloo is Scootaloo. Scootaloo may fly or not, but she's more than that.
   2. Rarity Takes Manehattan: How plagiarism affects a creative person's own psyche and behavior towards not only their friends, but herself, too. Her ability to trust everyone and lust to one-up Suri affected her friendship and narrowed her perception of Fashion Week, causing a rift between them. When her friends didn't show up to the show, Rarity felt very guilty and made her realize the error of her ways. When she decided to not focus on the contest anymore and instead bring her friends to an exclusive playing to Hinny of the Hills, Coco Pommel quit and gave Rarity not just the trophy, but also what would later be Rarity's key to help open the chest.
   3. Pinkie Pride: Cheese Sandwich is not just a great party planner, but a better one, too. Pinkie Pie is a party planner, too, and it's something she identifies herself with. So when Cheese decided to help prepare Dash's birthday party, she saw him as a threat and overlooked what helps make Pinkie Pie her: She plans parties because she has fun doing it.
   4. For Whom the Sweetie Belle Toils: Sweetie gets upset an jealous of Rarity because her older sister is so accomplished and better in many ways and inadvertently overshadows her as a consequence.
   5. Testing Testing 1, 2, 3: One method of learning may work with someone, but not everyone. Each and every person learns his or her own way. The Mane Six approach their methods to learning their ways. Twilight's was the traditional grind. Fluttershy's was visual learning via imagination. Pinkie's was auditory learning. Rarity's is visual learning via the passions she's invested in. Applejack's is immersion. Dash's approach to is to learn without thinking about it solely or so deeply; she learns while doing what she loves at the same time. Having Twilight write the lesson is small, but very important because it connects to every single adult who underwent similar struggles to learning and teach others to learn, too.
2. Conversely, FIM doesn't have a clean track record. Many episodes with mature themes aren't done well at all, sometimes to the point of creating offensive subtexts. When you have many episodes tackle mature themes and conflicts and not only fail to capitalize them, but also execute them really badly, then you do nothing except make bronies have DHX and Hasbro not only reconsider their approach to the topics, but also the direction of the show at large. Episodes like the ones below are one of the biggest reasons why when FIM approaches mature themes, bronies hold their collective breaths.
   1. Bridle Gossip: Racism, but a lazily executed form of storytelling. The Mane Six are very unlikeable and out of character. It tells the story and moral directly to the audience, the worst method of learning. (Four other episodes follow the same pattern of telling the moral to the character who was too stupid to figure it out: Mare Do Well, Spike at Your Service, Somepony to Watch Over Me, and Equestria Games.) There's absolutely no subtlety to its story, with the poison jokes shoved in the audience's face and the remedy book giving away the moral immediately. Even worse, because the conflict has everything to do with the Mane Six misunderstanding Zecora's true intention, it implies how every bit of racism is a result of misunderstanding each other, and Bridle Gossip falls for that cliché. It's the second-worst episode of the show.
   2. Feeling Pinkie Keen: A criticism of how poor science is used to demean other scientific studies. Unfortunately, the poor use of language in the dialogue, slapstick, and final moral revived the science-vs.-faith false debate.
   3. Dragon Quest: Implications of dragons being stereotypical bullies with no regard for anyone's lives but their own, teaches the audience how ponies are a godsend compared to dragons, and tells how Spike behaving feminine should be frowned upon and mocked.
   4. One Bad Apple: One of the worst stories of bullying in family entertainment history and the worst episode of the show as a result.
   5. Flight to the Finish: Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon are presented in the episode as flat antagonists who resort to lazy cheap shots to achieve their goals. Their one-dimensional characterizations marginalize Scootaloo's quest to fly and the mature moral at large. On top of that, they don't get punished for their bullying.
3. Connecting to my second point, Hasbro still hasn't let FIM go completely loose. Since Tales, they've always viewed MLP as a toy-first product "for little girls" and treat it as such through their first-party products, extremely safe approach, and executive meddling (Princess Cadance becoming an alicorn, The Crystal Empire's concept, the Twilicorn in MMC, the breezies, Rainbow Power, Twilight's new castle, and Equestria Girls/RR). However, Hasbro isn't exclusive a toy company; they're a toy/media hybrid. If you're going to get parents to buy the toys related to the TV shows, then they better promote it very well in their ten-, twenty-minute, and longer scripts and storytelling. If not, then it's going to look very toyetic, and you're going to get critics to criticize or bash the work. Look at the objectively awful media from G3, G3.5, and Equestria Girls for example.
4. As far as the excuse itself is concerned, you see that cop out to cover up a product's abundant missteps (FIM has a lot of them, and I see that excuse a lot in this fandom). This is one big reason why I called out the fallacy in this blog. "It's for kids" is no excuse for writing shit. If anything, the standards should be stricter and higher to remind everyone that children may be smart, but also very impressionable on what they watch. If kids watch bad shows and movies and like them, chances are they'll watch and like bad shows as adults, and they won't develop high-quality tastes as a result. High-quality products will merely improve the reputation of family entertainment, give parents viable options for their kids to watch, make people in general believe the people who make the show care, and be long-term moneymakers.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Dark Qiviut

[Luna 831 466]

Hasbro owns the show they will not do anything rash because they need to make all the money they can.

[babymoondust 223]

I would like it to embrace some mature topics a bit more.

 

Uhh.. It tackles burn-out from working yourself too hard (Applebuck Season), severe anxiety from meeting deadlines (Lesson Zero); and favors causality-based thinking when it comes to handling people who "do bad" (Bad Seed)... Pretty sure there are many more, but these have been my favorite lately. 

 

I don't know about anyone else, but to me these are complex and mature issues.. it's just a matter of if you catch it or not, or if it's the "type" of mature (or type of subject matter), you want. 

[A goat 323]

Because "family freindly" corperations like Disney has done many grim things, like the death of mufasa in the lion king or how maleficent says sleeping beuty is going to die. So if disney can do it, why not mlp? They also call it a cop out because people use it to excuse bad writing.

[RainbowScull 8]

I work in a school and as a social worker. I would like to continue to use the show to assist children with various issues. I currently do that now. I feel like the show is meant to be uplifting so I am not sure how dark it could get even if it remained "appropriate." I can only show G rated material in my school system, yes even at the high school level.  :okiedokielokie:

[Jeric 46,869]

This is what I mean. I don't want a "Call of Pony: Equestria Warfare" but I would like themes like death to be explored more.

 

The show does deal with mature themes if you want to read it as allegory. Suited for Success, Flight to the Finish, Inspiration Manifestation, Discord's arc, etc. These may be written for kids without the Brony fandom driving the focus, but they are being written by adults with the desire to include more subtle meanings. They like the paycheck, but they are artists. Also, I think a show retains more charm if it is a Rorschach series.   

 

However, you will likely get your wish. Read Spoiler if you want.

 

 

If Hasbro approves his final script, be prepared. MA Larson recently completed one that he called a 'serious' episode with no humor, which was difficult for him to work on. Some, like me, believe this refers to a long confirmed but not mentioned loss.

 

[Miles 2,513]

 

1. Conversely, FIM doesn't have a clean track record. Many episodes with mature themes aren't done well at all, sometimes to the point of creating offensive subtexts. When you have many episodes tackle mature themes and conflicts and not only fail to capitalize them, but also execute them really badly, then you do nothing except make bronies have DHX and Hasbro not only reconsider their approach to the topics, but also the direction of the show at large. Episodes like the ones below are one of the biggest reasons why when FIM approaches mature themes, bronies hold their collective breaths.
   1. Bridle Gossip: Racism, but a lazily executed form of storytelling. The Mane Six are very unlikeable and out of character. It tells the story and moral directly to the audience, the worst method of learning. (Four other episodes follow the same pattern of telling the moral to the character who was too stupid to figure it out: Mare Do Well, Spike at Your Service, Somepony to Watch Over Me, and Equestria Games.) There's absolutely no subtlety to its story, with the poison jokes shoved in the audience's face and the remedy book giving away the moral immediately. Even worse, because the conflict has everything to do with the Mane Six misunderstanding Zecora's true intention, it implies how every bit of racism is a result of misunderstanding each other, and Bridle Gossip falls for that cliché. It's the second-worst episode of the show.
   2. Feeling Pinkie Keen: A criticism of how poor science is used to demean other scientific studies. Unfortunately, the poor use of language in the dialogue, slapstick, and final moral revived the science-vs.-faith false debate.
   3. Dragon Quest: Implications of dragons being stereotypical bullies with no regard for anyone's lives but their own, teaches the audience how ponies are a godsend compared to dragons, and tells how Spike behaving feminine should be frowned upon and mocked.
   4. One Bad Apple: One of the worst stories of bullying in family entertainment history and the worst episode of the show as a result.
   5. Flight to the Finish: Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon are presented in the episode as flat antagonists who resort to lazy cheap shots to achieve their goals. Their one-dimensional characterizations marginalize Scootaloo's quest to fly and the mature moral at large. On top of that, they don't get punished for their bullying.

I couldn't disagree more.

 

1. Bridle Gossip was hilarious.  People who think that it's racist are just beyond me.  I see no racism at all... especially since ponies don't have races like humans have.  Zecora is depicted very accurately, and I am very pleased with traits they have attributed to her.  Besides, they learned their lesson in the end.  AND THAT is the whole point!  There WAS a moral/lesson taught by the episode - "don't judge a book by it's cover" --> don't judge people just by first sight.  Give everyone an equal and fair chance.  

 

I didn't see it as even coinciding with race.  I saw it as the Mane 6 seeing a kind of pony they had never seen before.  In it's literal form (not space), as in, textbook definition, she was alien to them.  They were afraid of her because she was a mystery to them.  To some extent, being afraid of the unknown is perfectly natural.  Now, of course the Mane 6 did wrong in judging, but that was the point.  I believe it was very well executed.

 

2. Really? Seriously?  You're going to say that it related to science vs faith...

 

"poor science to demean other scientific studies" - so you're saying the show shouldn't be able to depict things that actually happen in real life?  Because you think it sets a bad example?  

 

The episode had NOTHING to do with faith - in it's relation to religion - at all... and I'm a Christian, so I should be able to recognize that.  It's a reference to people having sixth senses.  Ever had a feeling about something but you have no reason to have the feeling (i.e. somethings going to happen/someone is watching you/etc...)?  Pinkie's Pinkie Sense is JUST that!  It's a shame you think so poorly about it.  I found it amusing in a very good way.

 

3. Bullies are real things, and this episode did a great job of showing that people can be mean.  Again, why do you think that showing realistic things is bad?  I've been bullied before myself, and I think nothing wrong of this episode.  It ended up showing Spike realizing not to care about what other people think, and that he could be himself.  In my book, there's another good lesson learned.

 

4. Ditto the above... plus: you have an opinion that I would like to believe is not of majority at all - as far as I can tell, most people loved this episode.  

 

In the end, everyone apologized and realized what they did wrong... and CHANGED their ways!  To be NICER.  And to be more respectful.  Also, it showed how to deal with bullies (when Babs told off the other two in the end, she showed how to overcome being picked on).  SO, there were multiple lessons learned.

 

5. Holy cow, I actually [partially] agree with you on this one... they were quite one dimensional.  And I, too, wish someone would have punished them.

 

Nonetheless, I adored this episode.  "Hearts as Strong as Horses" was just absolutely heart-warmingly fun.  

 

Note: This is with all due respect.  I only wish to combat your points.  Sorry if you thought I was being harsh at times.  Everyone should be entitled to their own opinions, and so you should just take this as "I agree to disagree, and here is why..." - but if you wish to hold your stance I totally respect that.

[Old Fluttershy 349]

People that say "it's a little girls show" are STUPID, honestly the show may have been meant for little girls but look what it's turned into. We have 50+ dudes watching the show. I mean don't you remember your parents saying, "never knock it till you tried it." I hate people that use those lame excuses. But more on the show, if you want more gritty go watch something more gritty. If MLP doesn't go deeper into these more "mature" problems that isn't necessarily going to make the show any better. Remember, only fix what's broken, if it works fine then don't mess with it.

[BlinkZ 1,151]

Whenever someone has a somewhat dark or slightly mature idea for an MLP episode, its always shot down with "that won't happen because it's for little girls" or "its a kids show, it won't be real". To which I reply, why use target audience as an excuse. Yes, FiM is a kids show, so I understand there are certain boundaries put in place. But that shouldn't limit the show from tackling more complex or mature issuess (in which it has done before). Plus, you'd be supprised at what you can do in children's programing. Look at Adventure Time, Hey Arnold, Courage the Cowardly Dog, SpongeBob, and Rocko's Modern Life. All of which managed to get some mature stuff past the censors. I'm not asking for FiM to become some dark, gritty war show with guns and violence. But I would like it to embrace some mature topics a bit more.

Well given the obligation they are under being a 'kids show' they of cours cant do certain thing due to TV laws or something like that.  As fo themes yeah they could in theroy have an episdoe about death, or dug abuse or whatnot but really do you reall want a PSA episode.

[Jeric 46,869]

Well given the obligation they are under being a 'kids show' they of cours cant do certain thing due to TV laws or something like that.  As fo themes yeah they could in theroy have an episdoe about death, or dug abuse or whatnot but really do you reall want a PSA episode.

 

Remember this PSA that dealt (rather poorly) with teenage drug use. Yeah, MLP has to avoid this sort of mature approach

 

[rainbowsmash13 53]

I would love for them to do a very special episode for some reason the ponies in this show speck to me and get emotion out of me better than human characters.

[Dark Qiviut 22,510]

@@Miles,

1. Bridle Gossip is one-hundred-percent about racism. It's the grand narrative that BG was critiquing. The ponies are portrayed as living in somewhat of an Anglo-saxon society. But when Zecora shows up, everyone in Ponyville hides, and the ReMane Five all come up with racist stories about her, from Pinkie's chanting to Rarity judging her on her stripes.
   
   Then observe Zecora herself. She's a zebra who lives outside of Ponyville. In the Everfree Forest in an African-style house with African decor. What she wears resembles African jewelry. She knows a lot about magic. She speaks in cryptic rhymes constantly. The ponies judge her simply by how she looks. The color of her fur. Creating stereotypes of her craft and demeanor. Judging by the color of someone's skin is the basis of racism.
   
   And how did they execute it? By writing the Mane Six out of character and resolve it as one big misunderstanding. Fluttershy's just there. AJ becomes too quick to judge. Pinkie immediately believes in the gossip. You get the rest. Twilight immediately dismissed the book Spike showed her because of the cover, making the moral and resolution too obvious and treating the audience like idiots. Then before Act 2 ends, she gives into the gossip and becomes as completely unlikeable as her fellow friends. People aren't racist for misunderstanding. People are racists because they perceive other races as inferior to their own. Calling the issue of racism a big misunderstanding trivializes the complex issue by simplifying it as "white folk are merely scared of them black folk" and undercuts the development of the story.
   
   "Don't judge a book by its cover" is a cliché, but still important today thanks to the prejudice that goes on in our world. But when you warp the characters' personalities and explain the moral to them because they were too stupid to figure it out, then the characters aren't learning the lesson. When characters learn the lesson, it makes the moral appear a little more genuine. The backwards writing in this episode diminished the messages' impact.
2. The false debate between science and creationism is unintentional. What happened is Feeling Pinkie Keen's script periodically expressed the words "science" and "faith." Language is powerful, and unfortunate implications exist. When you use the two in the same script, have Twilight written as a straw character (a character written with the lone intent to be proven wrong), use some really stupid ideas to prove Pinkie right (the leap of faith? Seriously?!), and then have Twilight physically suffer at the expense of the script, then the objective quality of the writing suffers. The poorly written moral is the icing on the cake today.
3. Saying Dragon Quest did a great job at portraying the dragons as being mean, real characters is equivalent to saying Snips and Snails aren't sexist stereotypes. Every single dragon written in Dragon Quest is a one-dimensional, stereotypical caricature. They're act stupid. They do stupid things. They're lazy. They disregard life. They're all male dragons. They're mean "just because," and the lore of dragons is portrayed as stereotypical alpha bullies with no intelligence. There are two words to describe this episode: sexist and xenophobic. Sexist because the bullies are stereotypical males and Spike's femininity being mocked. Xenophobic for unabashedly painting a broad brush on the dragon race.
   
   There's a secondary moral of not succumbing to peer pressure. On the surface, it's fascinating. But once more, that secondary moral is lost because the bigger picture is so poorly written.
4. The same goes for One Bad Apple. But I've already written the problems elsewhere, so I won't repeat it here.

Each episode does have objective quality flaws. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they don't exist. But when they're so prevalent and so large that they legitimately affect the narrative, the quality of the writing suffers. Friendship Is Magic's goal is to write quality content that respects kids and adults, but this show's screwed up quite a bit, as I exemplified in my post you quoted. "It's for kids" excuses these flaws and makes them act like they're no big deal. These problems are a big deal and need to be addressed accordingly.

Edited February 7, 2015 by Old King Q

[TubeSock2018 325]

It's subjective, not necessarily a cop out.

To someone, exploring the death of, say, applejack's parents may be too extreme for the target demo of MLP.

Even though a show like batman did deal with the death of his parents, it wasn't the main focus whereas an episode dealing with the death of AJs parents would be thr primr focus for the 22 minutes. Is that too much for a kids show? Idk. I don't think so, but someone might legitimately think so. Sesame Street dealt with an episode of parents in prison. That may have been considered to extreme for toddlers, but again, it all depends on how you look at it and not necessarily a cop out excuse, as if they secretly don't want that idea in the show.

 

Also, you gotta look at the DNA of MLP. It is, at its core, a show intended to promote a line of toys. Your more likely to want to buy stuff when your happy, so it makes sense that mlp rarely breaks it's overly happy scenarios save for some rare instances. Flight To The Finish could have been a lot more heartbreaking if you think about it.

 

And I think that's what defines MLP. It isn't quite the same as the shows you mentioned. It partly is, but it is still held back by the leash of Hasbro that will remain conservative until toy sales start tk drop.

The reason they brought Lauren Faust in was because G3 was outdated. Hasbro's philosophy is clear. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But I do hope they challenge themselves. The show will get boring if it follows a formula.

[Meanlucario 131]

If they are really determined to see it as a show for little girls only, bring up Cupcakes or Rainbow Factory. It will make them quiet. And worried about your sanity, but you can't have everything.

[ThatOneComrade 1,091]

The MLP fandom, specifically the Bronies, tends to overreact to every change the writers put in the show. I'd assume if a more mature episode came out, a number of them would get on their soap boxes and annoy Hasbro. Now francly, Hasbro couldn't give a flying pig over what a small minority thinks. Their only focus is parents. If a parent sees mature themes in their children's programming, they're gonna stop allowing the kid(s) to watch, and they'll stop buying merchandise. Hasbro would lose their main source of income  from the show since there's no way Bronies and other fans can hold it up. At least not for long.

 

So yeah, it's a simple kids show about pastel ponies solving problems with weaponized friendship, and it's best to leave it as is. I mean, we're consumers. All we know is what we don't want; not so much what we really want. We just have vague ideas most of the time. I say leave that choice up to the professionals, who are gonna keep the show as is.

[Miles 2,513]

@, 

Oh gosh... I must say, it seems I have changed quite alot since that last post of mine in this thread.  

Back then I was... kind of a different person as far as maturity and personality goes.  I know it may seem odd, that it was only 7 and a half months ago.  But I've honestly changed since then.  So, with that in mind, let's see if I can prove that to you.

1. Okay.  I can understand how it might be seen as racism.  However, it seems more like xenophobia to me.  Either way, I don't think shouldn't be taken as offensively as many people seem to take it.  I think that the moral of the story is more, though, than the cliche "don't judge a book by its cover" as you mentioned.  Quite frankly, it's about culture.  Though it may seem as if they were out of character, think about what culture shock can do to people in real life.  Pretty much the same kind of thing that happened in the show (minus the poison joke, lol).  I know, I know...  You're probably thinking "That's stretching the truth a bit don't you think?"  But honestly, no, I don't really think it's all that far-fetched from reality.  People actually do sometimes act "out of character" when it comes to culture shock.

 

Also, the way I saw the "don't judge a book by its cover" cliche wasn't from that book at all, but rather, Zecora represents the book in the cliche moral.  But, I think the moral of the episode goes beyond the cliche, and more or less adds "there's nothing wrong with being different."  

I agree that racism isn't a misunderstanding, but is obviously from true fear/hate.  

However, that basically proves my point in that this episode was more representational of xenophobia than it was of racism.  To me, what was displayed by the Mane 6 was a fear of Zecora because she was from a different culture, rather than a hatred of her because she was a Zebra.  

One more tidbit I'd like to add -  Zecora's coat/hoodie.  It plays a large role in making her seem "mysterious" or "suspicious."  The suspicion the Mane 6 had that was due to her hoodie has nothing to do with her being a Zebra.  The simple fact is that in real life, wearing a hoodie with your hood up - regardless of your race, of the time of day, and of the location - is going to make you seem suspicious.  Especially if it's not cold out.

2. Good points.  However, considering the fact that "faith" does not have to necessarily refer to "faith" - by that I mean, faith can mean just "trust in something," or faith can mean the religious trust in God.  

But anyway, I'm not saying there isn't any cause for the science vs. faith thing.

Nonetheless, my stance on the issue of the episode nowadays is much, much simpler.

Pinkie Pie is a gypsy.

 

 

(I hope it's obvious that I don't really care about the original science vs faith debate that the episode caused.  I just turn the other cheek anymore).
 

3. Well, my stance on this one remains the same as before.  I'll just add this:

Stereotypes aren't always false.  

As far as sexism goes... I'll just say, I'm a guy, and I was not offended by the episode.

 

4. I am going to quote from that post in that thread you linked...

One Bad Apple addressed the concept of bullying, and boy, did it screw up. To get it out of the way, the song was fantastic and actually painted a plausible portrayal of bullying. But there are numerous problems.

a. DT and SS are flat, one-dimensional bullies again, nullifying the character growth from past seasons. If you're going to make the context convincing, don't hammer in one-dimensional personalities just to get the message across. It cheapens the whole presentation. (This issue is evident in Flight to the Finish, too.)

b. Applejack and the rest of the Apple family are incompetent because the bullying resulted in AB sleeping on the floor. If they had the competence and intelligence, they would've spotted it immediately and get to the bottom of things. The only reason they didn't was simply because "the plot says so." It's annoyingly contrived.

c. The pace in itself is sloppy, going way too fast. Take the time to address the issue of bullying. Don't rush it to finish the plot.

d. The entire idea that the CMCs are bullies themselves because they got sick and tired of being bullied and decided to fight back. No, that's NOT bullying. They wanted to defend themselves because they were sick and tired of being pushed around, and they wanted Babs to know exactly how it feels. "Don't act against a bully because doing so makes you as bad as a bully" is a terrible moral!

e. The fact that Babs Seed became a sadistic bully because she was bullied in Manehattan was excused in the script. That's NO excuse for bullying!

f. One Bad Apple paints a one-size-fits-all method to combat bullying, which is to come to AJ (or any other adult) in case of bullies (something SB suggested several times earlier!). That doesn't always work because some don't care, while some adults enable the bullying or are the bully. Bullying is a very difficult subject to address because it's so multi-layered, and it's very important to address it sensitively.

[G.]
To make it worse, Babs Seed not only wasn't punished. She was basically rewarded for her immoral behavior. You don't screw up a very sensitive subject. You know what happens if you do? You could cause a reverse effect and enable this kind of behavior. The sorry way OBA's story and moral were written could also put kids in serious danger. It's victim-shaming at its finest, and it's disgusting!

 

A. They do seem to be pretty one-dimensional.  I'll give you this.

B. If the bullying never happened in front of them, how are they supposed to know since AB never ratted out to them that Babs was being a bully?  There was zero incompetence from them.  

C. I'm neutral on this.  Yah it was fast, but, 22 minutes isn't much time, either.

D. Agreed.

E. It may not be a good excuse, but it's still a legitimate reason that is representative of what could possibly happen in real life.  But I get your point.

F. While true that some people don't care, I have zero doubt that Applejack would, and does care.  You cannot tell me that you can really think she wouldn't care.

G. I actually am kind of stumped on this one.  I don't see the fact that she wasn't punished as being a big deal... she stopped bullying them so I think things were basically evened out.  Don't smack a dog for peeing on the floor after it peed - catch it in the act.  I know that's a bad comparison, but I think that since Babs owned up, and thus stopped bullying them... is reason enough for her to not be punished.  She became the CMCs' friend in the end.  It was said and done, too late to punish her then.  

 

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And that's where my "I've changed, so let me try this again" section ends.

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Each episode does have objective quality flaws. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they don't exist. But when they're so prevalent and so large that they legitimately affect the narrative, the quality of the writing suffers. Friendship Is Magic's goal is to write quality content that respects kids and adults, but this show's screwed up quite a bit, as I exemplified in my post you quoted. "It's for kids" excuses these flaws and makes them act like they're no big deal. These problems are a big deal and need to be addressed accordingly.

 

Just no.  Lol.

I can't take it seriously anymore.  "Each episode does have objective quality flaws."

Can I see your Quality Police badge?  Or something that gives you the authority to say that it's objective?

 

 

~ Miles

[TheMisterManGuy 344]

The MLP fandom, specifically the Bronies, tends to overreact to every change the writers put in the show. I'd assume if a more mature episode came out, a number of them would get on their soap boxes and annoy Hasbro. Now francly, Hasbro couldn't give a flying pig over what a small minority thinks. Their only focus is parents. If a parent sees mature themes in their children's programming, they're gonna stop allowing the kid(s) to watch, and they'll stop buying merchandise. Hasbro would lose their main source of income  from the show since there's no way Bronies and other fans can hold it up. At least not for long.

 

So yeah, it's a simple kids show about pastel ponies solving problems with weaponized friendship, and it's best to leave it as is. I mean, we're consumers. All we know is what we don't want; not so much what we really want. We just have vague ideas most of the time. I say leave that choice up to the professionals, who are gonna keep the show as is.

Parents let their kids Watch shows like Gravity Falls, that cartoon tackles mature themes. Honestly, this who "kids should be sheltered from mature themes" nonsense is a really outdated mentality. As long as you don't go overboard, exposing mature concepts to children can be a good thing.

[ThatOneComrade 1,091]

Parents let their kids Watch shows like Gravity Falls, that cartoon tackles mature themes. Honestly, this who "kids should be sheltered from mature themes" nonsense is a really outdated mentality. As long as you don't go overboard, exposing mature concepts to children can be a good thing.

Even so, that outdated mentality is still around. It'd be silly to brush it aside. A lot of MLP's popularity spawned from the fact that it's a simple show with good morals. No huge epic quests or intricate plots (save the 2-parters), just a nice little slice-of-life show. A lot of the shows kids have nowadays are like that already, and they were originally intended to do that. You re-watch the first three episodes following the pilot and it's clear MLP's not trying to do that. It's not Gravity Falls, it's not Adventure Time. If you want to tackle mature themes, go watch those, but MLP's fine as the simple thing that it is. I think that's great. Gives the kids who don't want mature themes or intricate plots another option.

 

So maybe "it's for kids" isn't the right statement. Maybe "it's for kids that don't feel like dealing with a storyline that spans over two episodes," or "it's for kids that want to turn their brains off and enjoy a show primarily made to sell toys." Not every show needs to be Gravity Falls.

[TheMisterManGuy 344]

Even so, that outdated mentality is still around. It'd be silly to brush it aside. A lot of MLP's popularity spawned from the fact that it's a simple show with good morals. No huge epic quests or intricate plots (save the 2-parters), just a nice little slice-of-life show. A lot of the shows kids have nowadays are like that already, and they were originally intended to do that. You re-watch the first three episodes following the pilot and it's clear MLP's not trying to do that. It's not Gravity Falls, it's not Adventure Time. If you want to tackle mature themes, go watch those, but MLP's fine as the simple thing that it is. I think that's great. Gives the kids who don't want mature themes or intricate plots another option.

 

So maybe "it's for kids" isn't the right statement. Maybe "it's for kids that don't feel like dealing with a storyline that spans over two episodes," or "it's for kids that want to turn their brains off and enjoy a show primarily made to sell toys." Not every show needs to be Gravity Falls.

I think you need to watch Season 4 again. MLP isn't your disposable, gag cartoon with no continuity like SpongeBob is. It has character development, it has continuity. It had an intricate plot throughout its 4th season. MLP is moving past a strictly Slice-of-Life structure, and has been doing so for a while now. Season 4 had more adventure episodes and elements than before. To say it should remain this safe cartoon designed only to entertain children not only limits FiM's potential, but can also cause a loss of interest. 

Let's say, if continuity and character development play a big part in your show, you should embrace it, and build upon it. If you try and shun them, then MLP just becomes a stale series.

 

I understand not every cartoon needs continuity or character development to be good (Rocko's Modern Life, and Ed, Edd, n Eddy are still good even without those things). But if it's a part of your show like it is in FiM, why shouldn't you take advantage of more complex themes and stories?