Could the show make a sexist character work?

[ggg-2 3,550]

Nothing too extreme of course, more along the lines of, say, Johnny Bravo.

[Sunny Fox 5,935]

Johnny Bravo was a parody of the sexist macho character. Which doesn't make the show good, but it at least had an appreciation of the need to subvert the trope. If approached with the intention of creating a parody of said stance in FiM, it might work. Playing it straight is also a possibility, but they'd then have to make him the villain, which would make it seem a bit contrived and preachy. i.e. "Johnny thinks he's a ladies man. Johnny always strikes out. Don't be like Johnny."

[BastementSparkle 20,312]

If we were going to see a sexist character in the show, I'd want to see a mare put into the role. That's not something you ever see on TV, and I feel it might make a bit more sense for Equestria where the majority of the powerful ponies seem to be mares.

 

Of course, I don't expect an episode on sexism to ever actually show up on this show, and if it ever did it probably would be a stallion doing it. Which would be fine too as long as it's well-written and doesn't fall into the usual traps episodes like that seem to always do.

Edited November 16, 2016 by BasementGlimmer

[Kyoshi Frost Wolf 40,360]

Going with BasementGlimmer on this one. Let a mare be this. Maybe she resents stallions for one reason or another, and that is a friendship problem two of the mane 6 have to solve. Seems simple enough and I don't think they would have to go extreme with this one at all. How they could tie it into a moral is a bit beyond me right now but I am sure they could make it work.

[Merion 783]

Absolutely! Maaaybe not the Johnny Bravo way, tho. The way he treated women was a little too close to the sexual harassment zone. That kind of thing feels just too extreme for MLP. However, introducing a boss/teacher character who treats their employees/students in an unfair way because of their gender... that would work in the FiM universe.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Merion

[Flutterstep 46,622]

I don't see why not. We've already had charecters who hate other races, as well as social class and place of origin. I think we should also get some more unpopular types of prejudice (e.g. health, age, personality and so on.)

[AlbaTross 1,581]

Eh...I think what makes this series work is that it isn't actually a "girl power" type series. What makes the mane six, the CMC and Sunset and Starlight special is not that they're mares/fillies. They're just great characters. Yes, I think the show and its spinoff media have shown that great female characters can be written, but that's because they're first and foremost just characters.

 

I bring this up, because misogynistic characters in stories with female leads often exist for the sake of the main character or characters showing them up. They're just another girl power trope. I reflected on this when I read the first five Lady Thor comics. I don't think it's a very good trope as it just serves to make a grandiose feminist statement, and any media that attempts to raise or shatter the glass ceiling often has the opposite effect IMHO as it acknowledges that there is a gender inequality, either real or perceived, and the main cast of a given story is usually involved in overcoming it while making it clear that any hurdles they face are still very much present in real life.

 

No, I don't think Ponies should go that route. It has done way more glass ceiling shattering than more blatant feminist stories as rather than specifically building up mares and fillies and having male characters being shown up by them, it builds up everypony and makes the statement that everyone has something to contribute to our world and help make it a better place so we should respect one another regardless of gender, race or creed. Maybe as a guy my view on feminism is worth taking with a grain of salt, but I see it and similar forms of activism such as race activism as tools that can be discarded once the goal of equality has been achieved. Media should strive to reflect that too as stories that show that anyone can pursue their dreams have way more universal appeal than ones that single out a particular group.

[greenflare 154]

Eh...I think what makes this series work is that it isn't actually a "girl power" type series. What makes the mane six, the CMC and Sunset and Starlight special is not that they're mares/fillies. They're just great characters. Yes, I think the show and its spinoff media have shown that great female characters can be written, but that's because they're first and foremost just characters.

 

I bring this up, because misogynistic characters in stories with female leads often exist for the sake of the main character or characters showing them up. They're just another girl power trope. I reflected on this when I read the first five Lady Thor comics. I don't think it's a very good trope as it just serves to make a grandiose feminist statement, and any media that attempts to raise or shatter the glass ceiling often has the opposite effect IMHO as it acknowledges that there is a gender inequality, either real or perceived, and the main cast of a given story is usually involved in overcoming it while making it clear that any hurdles they face are still very much present in real life.

 

No, I don't think Ponies should go that route. It has done way more glass ceiling shattering than more blatant feminist stories as rather than specifically building up mares and fillies and having male characters being shown up by them, it builds up everypony and makes the statement that everyone has something to contribute to our world and help make it a better place so we should respect one another regardless of gender, race or creed. Maybe as a guy my view on feminism is worth taking with a grain of salt, but I see it and similar forms of activism such as race activism as tools that can be discarded once the goal of equality has been achieved. Media should strive to reflect that too as stories that show that anyone can pursue their dreams have way more universal appeal than ones that single out a particular group.

This.  This so for many good reasons.

[Vixor 80]

Absolutely not. There's nothing physically stopping writers from doing whatever they want, mind you, other than restrictions placed by Hasbro and the shows rating, but a sexist character would not go over well, especially in a show like this which. Pardon my french, but it'd be a massive shitstorm. The show has a goal of gender equality, and the setting of Equestria reflects this as it's quite clearly gender-egaliarian with no gender roles. It's far better for the show to just continue doing it's thing and having lots of good characters of both genders, nothing ridiculous like a sexist character is needed.

 

It doesn't help or benefit the show in any way, the show already quite clearly portrays both genders as equally capable and equally respected.

 

If we were going to see a sexist character in the show, I'd want to see a mare put into the role. That's not something you ever see on TV, and I feel it might make a bit more sense for Equestria where the majority of the powerful ponies seem to be mares.

 

Of course, I don't expect an episode on sexism to ever actually show up on this show, and if it ever did it probably would be a stallion doing it. Which would be fine too as long as it's well-written and doesn't fall into the usual traps episodes like that seem to always do.

 

That wouldn't make more sense at all. The show is more focused on female characters screentime wise for obvious reasons, but it has never portrayed either gender as more dominant or more advantaged, and there are no real gender roles. There are plenty of influential ponies of both genders in the show, especially socially and economically, and there's not more 'powerful' ponies of one gender, whatever we're defining that as. Politicians, we've seen some of both genders, but that's really not the focus of the show, so they're obviously a rare sight, and are often just background or very minor characters. Either way, Equestria is gender-egalitarian, and it doesn't make more 'sense' for one gender to be more sexist than the other or anything like that.

 

Some people may have their own perceptions or interpretations that will make them see one gender being sexist in media as somehow magically being worse, and there's the optics of it all depending on a lot of factors, but in reality the gender of a hypothetical new sexist character isn't relevant, especially in an egalitarian setting, and either way it's nonsense to suggest that one somehow makes more 'sense'. Either way it'd go, I think it's a bad idea that doesn't benefit the show in any way, as the show has no shortage of good characters of both genders already, and a positive message in general, and so on, you get the idea hopefully, I'm pretty tired so I don't want to spend too much time typing all of this.

 

Anyway, going to agree with Albatross there, the show should not shoot itself in the foot for something like this, when it's already promoting gender equality while remaining a good cartoon with good and varied characters and a gender-egalitarian setting. Adding a sexist character is a bad idea that would not benefit the show, nor would it fit in the first place. The show has portrayed it's gender equality message by having 6 and counting seasons of both genders interacting and being portrayed as equally capable and equally respected and so on, not by being in your face with nonsense like sexist characters and other unpleasant things, and risking disaster.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Vixor

[BastementSparkle 20,312]

 

 

That wouldn't make more sense at all. The show is more focused on female characters screentime wise for obvious reasons, but it has never portrayed either gender as more dominant or more advantaged, and there are no real gender roles.

 

 

The 4 main rulers of Equestria, the alicorns are all mares, we've never even seen a male alicorn. While there are Princes, none of them are alicorns. Also, pretty much all of the royal guards we've seen are stallions, unless you count the wonderbolts I don't think we've seen a single mare royal guard. To be fair, the guard part is probably just the laziness of not wanting to make multiple models for guards.

 

 Now, I'd agree the mares mostly get the spotlight because the show is mostly focused on the female characters, rather than the male ones, and we have seen some stallions in powerful positions of course. Shining Armor as captain of the Royal Guard, and Fancy Pants being quite influential are just two examples.

 

 

 

Either way, Equestria is gender-egalitarian, and it doesn't make more 'sense' for one gender to be more sexist than the other or anything like that.

 

 

In Brotherhooves Social, Rainbow Dash tells Big Mac in his disguise "Don't think we'll take it easy on you just because you're a stallion." so it's not like the implications don't exist to some extent. I do believe that Equestria is a mostly gender-egalitarian society, but I don't think it's entirely impossible that some very small pockets of sexism might still exist, in some very backwards thinking ponies. We've already seen what was essentially racism with the three tribes back in Equestria's ancient past with Hearth's Warming Eve.

 

 

 

Some people may have biased perceptions that will make them see one gender being sexist in media as somehow magically being worse, but in reality the gender of a hypothetical sexist character is irrelevant, and it's nonsense to suggest that one somehow makes more 'sense'.

 

 

I never argued that women or mares being sexist was worse than the other way around, I think that's ridiculous, sexism either way is terrible. I admit that perhaps choosing to say it makes more "Sense" wasn't quite the correct word.

 

 Anyway, I do agree that overall, I wouldn't want to see sexism portrayed in this show, nor do I think it ever would be. However, I'd argue that if they did decide to portray it, I'd like to see it the other way around, a mare being sexist to stallions. Because it's not a perspective I've seen often in TV or entertainment, it's almost always the other way around, and this side of the issue at times seems to be ignored.

[Vixor 80]

 

 

The 4 main rulers of Equestria, the alicorns are all mares, we've never even seen a male alicorn. While there are Princes, none of them are alicorns. Also, pretty much all of the royal guards we've seen are stallions, unless you count the wonderbolts I don't think we've seen a single mare royal guard. To be fair, the guard part is probably just the laziness of not wanting to make multiple models for guards.

 

 Now, I'd agree the mares mostly get the spotlight because the show is mostly focused on the female characters, rather than the male ones, and we have seen some stallions in powerful positions of course. Shining Armor as captain of the Royal Guard, and Fancy Pants being quite influential are just two examples.

 

 

 

 

 

In Brotherhooves Social, Rainbow Dash tells Big Mac in his disguise "Don't think we'll take it easy on you just because you're a stallion." so it's not like the implications don't exist to some extent. I do believe that Equestria is a mostly gender-egalitarian society, but I don't think it's entirely impossible that some very small pockets of sexism might still exist, in some very backwards thinking ponies. We've already seen what was essentially racism with the three tribes back in Equestria's ancient past with Hearth's Warming Eve.

 

 

 

 

 

I never argued that women or mares being sexist was worse than the other way around, I think that's ridiculous, sexism either way is terrible. I admit that perhaps choosing to say it makes more "Sense" wasn't quite the correct word.

 

 Anyway, I do agree that overall, I wouldn't want to see sexism portrayed in this show, nor do I think it ever would be. However, I'd argue that if they did decide to portray it, I'd like to see it the other way around, a mare being sexist to stallions. Because it's not a perspective I've seen often in TV or entertainment, it's almost always the other way around, and this side of the issue at times seems to be ignored.

 

 

As long as Hasbro is convinced that princesses sell toys, they're likely to churn out more of them. That being said, there's no reason whatsoever to think that gender is at all relevant to alicornhood, as it's an earned position based on merit, being a good and benevolent leader, and so on. Genitals don't matter there, and it would destroy their legitimacy to restrict something like that based on gender. Starswirl almost became an alicorn, mind you, but as Celestia mentioned, he didn't really fully understand friendship, certainly not as well as Twilight anyway, and as we all saw, friendship got Twilight to where she is today. And the only reason the two princes aren't alicorns is because their situation is completely different from, say, Twilight and Cadance, and thus not comparable. While the latter two ascended through doing special things (and we saw the full, extended process with Twilight), Shining Armor is a prince consort (married into the title), and Blueblood likely simply inherited his title, and there's no reason to believe alicornhood comes on a silver platter with title alone.

 

Also, there's absolutely no way that Dash is sexist, you're misinterpreting that scene pretty heavily. She's just the last pony who ever would be, especially given that she also has some obvious tomboyish traits. She was clearly referring to the fact that he was heavily disadvantaged by having to wear a dress and high heels of all things to disguise himself, something that the other contestants did not have to do. She was also likely afraid, because while mares and stallions overall actually seem pretty evenly matched physical wise, it seems pretty fair to assume Big Mac is the strongest pony in Ponyville in general, and it showed despite his handicap in that competition. It's fair if you think that sexist ponies might exist in Equestria in small pockets, but none of the main characters are even remotely sexist, especially not Dash. If you absolutely HAD to pick one, Rarity would be the closest IMO. But really, bottom line, there are no implications of sexism, certainly not from any of the major characters.

 

And I certainly wouldn't call trading cards a solid source of canon or anything, but here's an example of where it's more clearly spelled out. It's worth mentioning at least, because what we saw in the show was clearly not sexism, it was Dash either stating she wasn't going to hold back because he decided to wear a dress and high heels of all things, or that she was afraid of his athletic ability, and quite likely both.

 

 

Anyway, I disagree that the female sexist perspective doesn't exist at all in entertainment. I think it's actually fairly common in stuff like reality TV and things of that nature. Unfortunately, it also seems like it's commonly downplayed or attempted to be portrayed as somehow less bad when it's not, and other injustices like that. That's certainly bad, but I don't think MLP should touch that topic with a ten-foot pole, it's just not worth it and has no real benefit when the show is already doing pretty damn well in this regard. There's also a million ways the writers could monumentally screw it up, and scarce few where they could get it 'right'. You mentioned part of that yourself when you brought up the traps that the show could fall into.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Vixor

[BastementSparkle 20,312]

That being said, there's no reason whatsoever to think that gender is even remotely relevant to alicornhood, as it's an earned position based on merit. Genitals don't matter there, and it would destroy their legitimacy to restrict something like that based on gender.

 

I never said that gender was a requirement or that alicornhood was based on it, I'm sure a stallion could potentially become an alicorn. However there's no denying the 4 supposedly most powerful ponies in Equestria are all mares, there's nothing wrong with that, but some loony sexist could potentially take that as a sign of mare superiority or something.

 

 

 

Also, there's absolutely no way that Dash is sexist, you're misinterpreting that scene pretty heavily. She's just the last pony who ever would be, especially given that she also has some obvious tomboyish traits. She was clearly referring to the fact that he was heavily disadvantaged by having to wear a dress and high heels of all things to disguise himself, something that the other contestants did not have to do.

 

 

I'm not sure about that. Why wouldn't she just say "Don't think I'll take it easy on you just because you're in heels." then? She specifically mentions that he's a stallion. Also, he doesn't have to wear the disguise, he would have been allowed in anyway as the judges say. Thought it's possible Dash didn't know that either.

 

 Anyway, I don't think RD is a sexist. At the absolute worst I think her competitive streak got the better of her and she said something a bit silly in the heat of the moment, she's probably said some stupid or aggressive stuff to AJ in the past too. One little slip-up does not a sexist make in my opinion, but a line like that could potentially hint at some sexist ideas having existed at some point in Equestria, though that likely wasn't the writers intention, it was probably just a little joke on their part.

 

The card may or may not be canon, and may or may not be going by the writer's interpretation. Rainbow Dash being worried about Big Mac being more athletic than her though, could easily cause her to get paranoid and say something kinda dumb.

 

Anyway, I disagree that the female sexist perspective doesn't exist at all in entertainment. I think it's actually fairly common in stuff like reality TV and things of that nature. Unfortunately, it also seems like it's commonly downplayed or attempted to be portrayed as somehow less bad when it's not.

 

 

I wouldn't say it doesn't exist at all, but it seems fairly uncommon compared to men being sexist, and like you said it's usually treated like some joke, or like it doesn't really matter, which it shouldn't. It's something I think we need to see a bit more of, and that needs to be taken more seriously.

 

 

 

I don't think MLP should touch that topic with a ten-foot pole though, it's just not worth it and has no real benefit when the show is already doing pretty damn well in this regard. There's also a million ways the writers could monumentally screw it up, and scarce few where they could get it 'right'.

 

Anyway, like I said, I'll agree that I don't necessarily want them to do it. If they did do it, I think they could potentially handle it well and teach a valuable lesson, but overall it probably is something better left untouched by this show. Basically, I wouldn't want them to, but if they did do it, and they did it well, I would be accepting of it.

Edited November 16, 2016 by BasementGlimmer

[Vixor 80]

I'm not sure about that. Why wouldn't she just say "Don't think I'll take it easy on you just because you're in heels." then? She specifically mentions that he's a stallion. Also, he doesn't have to wear the disguise, he would have been allowed in anyway as the judges say. Thought it's possible Dash didn't know that either.

 

I mean, she didn't really need to point out his heels specifically (the dress is also a handicap, too, as it would restrict movement), the disguise was an inherent part of his choice to participate. The judges didn't disqualify him, and I'm sure they would have let him compete had he just asked, but his disguise was an obvious handicap that he wore because of the circumstances. I'm sticking by my points there, Dash is not a pony who would be or act sexist. Rainbow Dash did not mean anything about his gender, she meant his handicap, and was quite possibly nervous because she knew how strong he was. We've also seen Dash interacting with other male characters, and she always treats them as an equal.

 

Anyway, hopefully we end this conversation here, I'd like to be doing other stuff, and I'm not feeling too well. I don't really have much else to say about the state of sexism in other media, I just don't think MLP should involve it. There's just no real benefit to it, and I'd prefer the show keep on the path of positive-themed approaches to gender-equality that aren't in your face, but rather organically develops and fits seamlessly into the rest of the show.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Vixor

[BastementSparkle 20,312]

 

 

We've also seen Dash interacting with other male characters, and she always treats them as an equal.

 

This is exactly why I don't think she's a sexist either, even if you interpret that line my way, that she was specifically calling out his gender, I don't think it'd make her a sexist. She's always treated other stallions with respect, she's even looked up to one in the form of Wind Rider, before she realized he was a jerk anyway.

 

 Like I said, at worst she said something kinda dumb out of stress, since in all other cases she's treated stallions well and like her equals, I wouldn't take this one line as qualifying her as a sexist. I've heard plenty of men and women say something kind of sexist in moments of stress and frustration for one reason or another.

 

 

 

Anyway, hopefully we end this conversation here, I'd like to be doing other stuff, and I'm not feeling too well. I don't really have much else to say about the state of sexism in other media, I just don't think MLP should involve it. There's just no real benefit to it, and I'd prefer the show keep on the path of positive-themed approaches to gender-equality that aren't in your face, but rather organically develops and fits seamlessly into the rest of the show.

 

 

Sure, no problem, we mostly agree anyway, just not 100%. Hope you feel better soon.

[GrimGrimoire 4,970]

Naw. I think adding a sexist character would just cause unnecessary issues to the overall theme of the show. Some already consider the show sexist in some form or another or complain it promotes feminism in some way or form... to make an actual episode making that the central theme would just give those same people something to swing their bats at more for very little reason. I think some themes we deal with here in the real world just need to remain here in the real world.

 

 

I never said that gender was a requirement or that alicornhood was based on it, I'm sure a stallion could potentially become an alicorn. However there's no denying the 4 supposedly most powerful ponies in Equestria are all mares, there's nothing wrong with that, but some loony sexist could potentially take that as a sign of mare superiority or something.

 

Been there done that. That subject crops up from time to time. There are already a few threads on the idea buried here somewhere... and you still have some people say they hate the show just because they perceive it as an attack on the male gender. Obviously it is silly, but people will say lots of silly things to try to make a case.

 

She was clearly referring to the fact that he was heavily disadvantaged by having to wear a dress and high heels of all things to disguise himself, something that the other contestants did not have to do. She was also likely afraid, because while mares and stallions overall actually seem pretty evenly matched physical wise, it seems pretty fair to assume Big Mac is the strongest pony in Ponyville in general, and it showed despite his handicap in that competition.

 

Actually I just took it as reverse psychology. I don't see RD being afraid of anything overall and just treating it like she treats anything in competition.. as a challenge. And for me her words reflected that... she is a braggart through and through and I think she always sees herself as the better athlete/competitor vs. pretty much anybody. It just fits with her overall extremely competitive and somewhat arrogant thinking "I won't take it easy on you just because you weigh more than me or are twice my size" You could have easily replaced Stallion with Dragon, Griffin, Princess, Spirit of Chaos, Buffalo or whatever if her opponent had been one of those things.... she is just that self confident in these sorts of things.

[BastementSparkle 20,312]

 

 

Been there done that. That subject crops up from time to time. There are already a few threads on the idea buried here somewhere... and you still have some people say they hate the show just because they perceive it as an attack on the male gender. Obviously it is silly, but people will say lots of silly things to try to make a case.

 

 

I was more speaking of the idea of maybe some crazy mare in-universe taking it as a sign of her gender's superiority, or some conspiracy theorist or something...But it's no surprise real people have taken it that way, I've even seen it before. I think it's pretty ridiculous. At worst the show has portrayed a few boring male stereotypes, with things like the Teenage dragons, but I've never felt insulted or like the show was attacking me or my gender.

 

 Overall, any kind of portrayal of sexism in this show, whether it be a stallion or mare committing it would offend someone, and that's definitely another good reason to try and avoid something like this in the show.