S09:E01+E02 - The Beginning of the End

[KH7672 1,604]

3 hours ago, BastementSparkle said:

He's the Mane Six's friend, but he's not really part of the main group, he's the guy who shows up, insults your new haircut, turns your rug into cheese, teaches you a lesson about life in the most obnoxious way possible, and then drops out of your life again until he feels like it. Unless you're Fluttershy, then you get regular tea time and letters.

 I guess I can see how that might be jarring to someone, but it feels like the perfect fit for the character and your description only made me love him even more. His speech at the end, in my opinion works so well because he's honestly the last character who should probably ever be giving a speech like that, and while it was a plan and it's so obviously acted up and dramatic, it really felt like he was being sincere about everything he said.

I think this is my main struggle with this narrative dissonance. For me if someone's going to give an empowering speech, for it to mean something it has to be someone who, well fits what they're saying. The kind of speech that make you fight FOR the speaker and not merely because of their speech. Discord talking about the importance of the elements in the Mane 6 just doesn't fit anything we've seen from him. The only time he ever even interacted with the Elements was back in his premiere and after that....nothing. All his other appearances have more of a focus on inclusion and self appreciation, and if that's what they wanted to use him for, a speech to empower the group to stick together if they're getting testy similar to Mean 6 or Rainbow Rocks I could buy it. But this speech as you said doesn't fit him and to be sincere I feel the character has to embody what they preach. Say give this speech to Spike or Celestia, characters who were around for every use of the Elements and can understand where he true power lies, and it works wonderfully as someone to fight back for. I think again back to Starlight in Shadow Play speaking about talking things out and getting both sides of the pillar's story fits her well because of how she did so during the season in A Royal Problem and To Change A Changeling. Discord has been so narratively dissonant from the Mane 6 (excluding Fluttershy) and especially the Elements it doesn't feel like him giving the speech. Now as you also said had it been played up more, with well more hamming such as coughing, or sudden dramatic lighting or even a disembodied hand giving him a "Pony Oscar" I would absolutely believe it. (But then you run the risk of it being too obvious a fake, and also making the Mane 6 look dumb if they don't catch on so it's not a perfect solution)

Still, all I can ask is if anyone can explain to me why Discord works for this speech? And if the only answer it works because it doesn't fit and that's just Discord, then I say we have to agree to disagree on this statement.

[gingerninja666 487]

8 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

I think this is my main struggle with this narrative dissonance. For me if someone's going to give an empowering speech, for it to mean something it has to be someone who, well fits what they're saying. The kind of speech that make you fight FOR the speaker and not merely because of their speech. Discord talking about the importance of the elements in the Mane 6 just doesn't fit anything we've seen from him. The only time he ever even interacted with the Elements was back in his premiere and after that....nothing. All his other appearances have more of a focus on inclusion and self appreciation, and if that's what they wanted to use him for, a speech to empower the group to stick together if they're getting testy similar to Mean 6 or Rainbow Rocks I could buy it. But this speech as you said doesn't fit him and to be sincere I feel the character has to embody what they preach. Say give this speech to Spike or Celestia, characters who were around for every use of the Elements and can understand where he true power lies, and it works wonderfully as someone to fight back for. I think again back to Starlight in Shadow Play speaking about talking things out and getting both sides of the pillar's story fits her well because of how she did so during the season in A Royal Problem and To Change A Changeling. Discord has been so narratively dissonant from the Mane 6 (excluding Fluttershy) and especially the Elements it doesn't feel like him giving the speech. Now as you also said had it been played up more, with well more hamming such as coughing, or sudden dramatic lighting or even a disembodied hand giving him a "Pony Oscar" I would absolutely believe it. (But then you run the risk of it being too obvious a fake, and also making the Mane 6 look dumb if they don't catch on so it's not a perfect solution)

Still, all I can ask is if anyone can explain to me why Discord works for this speech? And if the only answer it works because it doesn't fit and that's just Discord, then I say we have to agree to disagree on this statement.

I think it perfectly fits for Discord to want to help the cast in his own dickish way. Like, this is more or less a less malevolent version of him trying to help Twilight in Princess Twilight Sparkle or What About Discord. He heard from the PRincesses that Twilight is going to become Equestria's ruler, and he genuinely believes that she can do it. So he tries to prod her into doing what he thinks is right. The speech he gives is intentionally broad and inspirational because he made it up. He contrived a situation where he would appear mortally wounded so that it would make slightly more sense for him to give that kind of speech. He even mentions that it was a brilliant speech when complaining at the end. He prepared it and was proud of it.

Edited April 8, 2019 by gingerninja666

[Metemponychosis 1,259]

Holy shit, that was stupid. When the episode wasn't trying to be over the top and threatening it was fun. Discord, for example, was the best and most amusing part. But that is setting a very low bar. And that is saying something, because except for Princess Twilight and this one, I like all season openers.

First question: how many years since last season? Because...

Princess Luna: Well, there is more to it. Equestria is currently enjoying its longest period of harmony in recent years.

And then...

Princess Luna: Because of your efforts, there's been less and less for us to do.

What? Someone give Luna her medication.

So you mean that someone is ruling the nation for Celestia (or for them, the cartoon never makes up it's mind), someone is raising the sun and someone is raising the moon and protecting dreams. No, that is not what the cartoon wants to say. What it's trying to do is get the princesses out of the way so that the awesome story they want to tell happens. So, as usual.

But did everyone forget, again, that Applejack has a damn farm to run, that Rainbow Dash wants to be a wonderbolt? That Rarity owns a successful business. That Pinkie is a baker and Fluttershy a vet? What about Cadance? By the way, doesn't she want to retire too? Why does Luna want to retire? I could get Celestia, but why Luna? Come to think of it, why should I care that they're retiring? They never expressed a desire to do so, or to NOT do so. It means nothing for their characters.

Then again, what exactly is Celestia trying to retire from? From the stuff that happens in the episode? Don't make me laugh. The writers still don't have a clue what to do with her. Finally, who the hell wants to retire from a position of power. This cartoon never managed to make Celestia into a convincing queen, and never showed that she actually does anything other than social stuff Luna did in that episode about Starlight Glimmer swapping their cutie marks. Celestia could've been written from the first scene as simply a pony that has a weird magic and completely ignore the part of her ruling the nation. It would completely fix Celestia. Especially this dumbass retirement thing.

This cartoon is amazing. It managed to turn the power of making the day happen into something mundane and turned the ruler of a nation, that remained in power for 1000 years, into a pointless, harmless... I don't even know how to describe what they're trying to do with Celestia. All the while pretending it's done the exact opposite. It takes a level of not caring that I don't think I've ever seen. It's something that could be in mythologies, but it got squashed into a pointless characters the writers don't know what to do with.

The whole 'Twilighting' thing was funny for a while then the episode tried to be so meta with it, it became annoying. Thankfully it didn't go on much.

Then there was Rainbow Dash's line, about the princesses never helping. Not that it fixes that whole mess earlier, but at least it gave me hope that they did have something interesting planned. And they did, unfortunatelly, they botched it, because they don't really know what they're doing.

Then the villains are presented and there is nothing to complain. ACK! King Sombra talked! He sounds like my uncle trying to make a funny voice! Stop talking Sombra! PLEASE STOP TALKING!

Actually, nothing wrong with this scene, despite me not liking his voice. But I love the way that in this conversation with Grogar the dialogue seems aware of the problems with the way the Mane Six dealt with those villains, but Grogar got it all wrong. It was not because they weren't together. It literally was because Cadance's Love magic trumps all, because Twilight was lucky Spike was there, because they WERE lucky, and because others did their job for them. But I get it... They're trying to write a story here and it can be hard bringing together all these characters for the party, and we're talking about the people that couldn't make Celestia into a believable ruler. So, whatever, it worked. Nice characters and setting, moving on.

Back to Twilight, she says this to Starlight...

Starlight, you have blossomed into one of the strongest, smartest, most caring ponies I know, and I can't think of anypony better to leave in charge of my castle and the School of Friendship! So what do you think?

So, how long has it been since last season? Because, I must've been watching a different cartoon all along. I'm glad Starlight didn't win over Twilight's fears, though.

Next scene... King Sombra comes in, does things, wins. Here's an idea: let's break this down into a whole season, or at least some more episodes. If there was time to do that yet, anyways... Because this whole thing is worth an episode on it's own. I didn't really like or dislike anything... It was just rushed, weird, and little details try to wave the problems away, like the crystal breaking, but not really, Flurry Heart acting like she was the most capable fighter in the scene. Sombra losing as fast as he had won. The whole spiel about the Elements of Harmony... Like I said. Should've been an episode on it's own, and in the end it looks like they only won or lost because the writer wanted them to.

The first part ends with Sombra being defeated, and them destroying the elements. As if that was supposed to mean anything... For how long have the girls stood without them, before they got them back? It doesn't mean anything now. Which is annoying with the way the cartoon tries to force that it does.

Anyway, the 'interesting thing' arrived after Sombra destroyed the Tree of Hamony. Celestia and Luna blasted the vines growing out of Everfree with magic. Yay. Celestia AND Luna AND Starswirl. Fucking yay. First, it's completely pointless and was done only so that the two sisters could come in and magic blast the problem away. Why?Second... What is the timeline here? When did the tree appear, and when did Celestia and Luna arrive? Who knows? Who cares? It's another thing that Celestia did (with help, as usual) in the past that is supposed to give weight to her character. Here is an idea: actually show that she was a good ruler instead of coming up with shit like that. Why can't they come out of this hole when trying to do anything with Celestia? So, now Luna used to help her sister keep the forest at bay, used her dream magic and rose the moon. Star Swirl is Gandalf. Why does Celestia want to retire again? She's the one that did the least. None of it makes any sense.

Not to mention that throughout the series, all Celestia did was sit her ass on her throne while Twilight was already fixing everything. What is the point of this episode again? To prove that Twilight can, or can't 'rule' Equestria? What a goddamn mess.

After that, and Celestia and Luna are stuck fixing something else, Twilight moves on with the story, as usual. The whole thing could've been left out and the girls could've gone after Sombra. Still, it was going so well until Discord got himself hit instead of simply using his magic to protect Fluttershy. That scene was so stupid, with King Sombra standing there and sitting on his ass and doing nothing as Discord talked to them. For fuck's sake, that thing went on. And everybody knew Discord wasn't going to die or anything... And in an episode that already has such a awkward issue with pacing. This and the thing with the Forest. Why?

Twilight fighting King Sombra was pretty nice to see though. Really, it looked great, kudos to the animators. Then it ended with the girls using Rainbow Power. That's what it was, right? Didn't seem like it. What was it? I don't know. Did the writers know? I doubt it. It was just hammering in what we already know...

Then Celestia arrives and tells Twilight that, maybe, she's not ready yet. Or something... Fuck off. This whole plot was a waste. Instead of it, the episode should've given more time to it's actual events. Also, Spike was non-existent.

Anyway, it started, it was a mess, it made little sense, but it started; and we have three villains that already were defeated, a child, and Grogar. Thank god this episode is over, left no significant impact, and we can move on to the fun episodes where the characters deal with day to day life. Maybe see something nice when Chrysalis and Tyrek and Cozy Glow are doing their things, because they won't have this whole stupid, pointless, plot in the way of their episodes. I hope.

[gingerninja666 487]

30 minutes ago, Metemponychosis said:

Anyway, the 'interesting thing' arrived after Sombra destroyed the Tree of Hamony. Celestia and Luna blasted the vines growing out of Everfree with magic. Yay. Celestia AND Luna AND Starswirl. Fucking yay. First, it's completely pointless and was done only so that the two sisters could come in and magic blast the problem away. Why?Second... What is the timeline here? When did the tree appear, and when did Celestia and Luna arrive? Who knows? Who cares? It's another thing that Celestia did (with help, as usual) in the past that is supposed to give weight to her character. Here is an idea: actually show that she was a good ruler instead of coming up with shit like that. Why can't they come out of this hole when trying to do anything with Celestia? So, now Luna used to help her sister keep the forest at bay, used her dream magic and rose the moon. Star Swirl is Gandalf. Why does Celestia want to retire again? She's the one that did the least. None of it makes any sense.

I think you misunderstood this scene. I got the impression that it was Starswirl and the pillars who originally held the forest at bay, not the sisters.

 

But anyway, the reason the forest scene happened was because they needed to get rid of Celestia and Luna so that Twilight could save the day. Now, they could either get rid of her by having the villain beat her up or they could have her stuck doing something else. Which is what they went with.

 

30 minutes ago, Metemponychosis said:

After that, and Celestia and Luna are stuck fixing something else, Twilight moves on with the story, as usual. The whole thing could've been left out and the girls could've gone after Sombra. Still, it was going so well until Discord got himself hit instead of simply using his magic to protect Fluttershy. That scene was so stupid, with King Sombra standing there and sitting on his ass and doing nothing as Discord talked to them. For fuck's sake, that thing went on. And everybody knew Discord wasn't going to die or anything... And in an episode that already has such a awkward issue with pacing. This and the thing with the Forest. Why?

The whole Discord thing was mainly a character moment for him. He has an interesting push and pull relationship with Twilight. He believes that Twilight would make a great leader, but Twilight herself was spiralling into a mess of self doubt, so Discord does what he often does, he tries to help her in a massively manipulative and dickish way. You mentioned not liking the Princess Twilight Sparkle premiere and that kinda makes sense because Discord did a very similar thing in that episode too. I preferred it in this episode honestly. His speech was better. It shows how much he gets the mane cast. And how much he genuinely has their best interests at heart deep down.

 

30 minutes ago, Metemponychosis said:

Finally, who the hell wants to retire from a position of power.

We saw in Royal Problem that Celestia often has so much to do that she barely gets any sleep. All that time dealing with socialites and appointments and meetings. Luna underestimated how tiring that stuff can be and it wrecked her. She seems to rule Equestria for the good of her people, not because she enjoys the power.

 

30 minutes ago, Metemponychosis said:

Then it ended with the girls using Rainbow Power. That's what it was, right? Didn't seem like it. What was it? I don't know. Did the writers know? I doubt it. It was just hammering in what we already know...

The Rainbow Power went back into the box at the end of Twilight's Kingdom, and then went on to become the castle and the map, unless I'm misremembering how that episode went. Fans always seemed to just assume that the cast still had the Rainbow power despite never using it again. But anyway, the idea of the episode was that Twilight had lost sight of things in her panic. Discord even says that. She put too much stock on needing the elements, needing the tree, to deal with massive threats like Sombra, when the power of friendship was in her the whole time. Like, yes the elements have been destroyed before, but not the entire tree the elements came from. Twi and Starswirl both say that they felt a disturbance in their very essences when the tree fell. It's not the same.

Edited April 8, 2019 by gingerninja666

[DonMaguz 1,023]

18 minutes ago, Metemponychosis said:

Anyway, it started, it was a mess, it made little sense, but it started; and we have three villains that already were defeated, a child, and Grogar. Thank god this episode is over, left no significant impact, and we can move on to the fun episodes where the characters deal with day to day life. Maybe see something nice when Chrysalis and Tyrek and Cozy Glow are doing their things, because they won't have this whole stupid, pointless, plot in the way of their episodes. I hope.

I could see most of what you complained about when I watched the episode, but honestly I didn't give those things too much weight. After all, the objective of the premiere was exactly what you've written in the last paragraph, to set up the final season.

[Truffles 2,033]

1 hour ago, Metemponychosis said:

Why does Luna want to retire? I could get Celestia, but why Luna?

That's a good question. Celestia has indeed ruled for 1000 years longer than her sister, and it's curious she'd want to give up her place in the kingdom so readily to be by her sister's side in retirement. Then there's this:

Does this look like a sister who doesn't still have a bit of jealousy over her sibling's in-universe popularity? Her having her chance to shine in the sun (as it were, lol) seems like an opportunity too good to pass up.

I can sum this premiere up in 3 words: fun but sloppy.

Another question I have:

Did the zombie ponies from Ponyville walk all the way to Canterlot? There's no indication they hopped on the train, and when Sombra appeared as they approached the main gate to the city, he teleported in separately - and not with them en masse -leading me to believe the army marched there on foot. Just how far is it to Canterlot, again? 

Speaking of the enslaved, I still wish he had really made them evil and not just mindless zombies. Seeing an actual evil Spike, Cake twins, or even Apple Bloom and Sweetie Belle would have been a lot of fun.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Truffles
Missing a 'y'

[gingerninja666 487]

5 minutes ago, Truffles said:

Did the zombie ponies from Ponyville walk all the way to Canterlot? There's no indication they hopped on the train, and when Sombra appeared as the approached the main gate to the city, he teleported in separately - and not with them en masse -leading me to believe the army marched there on foot. Just how far is it to Canterlot, again? 

If I remember those maps of equestria right, Canterlot really isn't that far away. You can see it from Ponyville and vice versa. They're right next to each other.

Edited April 8, 2019 by gingerninja666

[Truffles 2,033]

17 minutes ago, gingerninja666 said:

If I remember those maps of equestria right, Canterlot really isn't that far away. You can see it from Ponyville and vice versa.

I think I was going from the length of time it took to travel to Canterlot by train in some of the earlier episodes. Though after just watching the beginning of "Best Night Ever," the Mane 6 and Spike take their carriage from Ponyville. So you're right - it must not be that long of a walk and could be done in the timeframe stated in this premiere..

Edited April 8, 2019 by Truffles

[KH7672 1,604]

1 hour ago, gingerninja666 said:

I think it perfectly fits for Discord to want to help the cast in his own dickish way. Like, this is more or less a less malevolent version of him trying to help Twilight in Princess Twilight Sparkle or What About Discord. He heard from the PRincesses that Twilight is going to become Equestria's ruler, and he genuinely believes that she can do it. So he tries to prod her into doing what he thinks is right. The speech he gives is intentionally broad and inspirational because he made it up. He contrived a situation where he would appear mortally wounded so that it would make slightly more sense for him to give that kind of speech. He even mentions that it was a brilliant speech when complaining at the end. He prepared it and was proud of it.

Okay, now I understand more what I'm not believing; it's the Mane 6's reaction along with him being the one delivering it. You're right he would be one to make it up but I feel it's a mistake to play it so straight with the cast.

Say instead, he plays it up and the Mane 6 get all teary eyed and say this:

Quote

Rarity: That was beautiful Discord

Applejack: Absolutely inspirational

Pinkie: Yeah

[Beat]

Rainbow: You know he's faking it right?

(Still teary eyed)Pinkie: Yep Rarity: Of course AJ: Uh huh 

Fluttershy: Yeah...[snaps out it] Wait! Really?!

Twilight: Well girls, he's right about one thing...

[Twilight proceeds to face Sombra]

To me this feels like something in line with Discord's feelings toward the group and the group's combined feelings toward him. They will certainly be insipred by him, but I can't buy they would fight for him because they think he's defeated and holding on. It's kinda more suspension of disbelief in the behavior and the weight the speech carries to the Mane 6 that again I wouldn't question if it were Spike or Celestia. That is more what I mean with question why he specifically for every intent and purpose this scene conveys works for it.

Edited April 8, 2019 by KH7672

[Moving On 8]

I'm kinda late but I'll say this. The Beginning of The End was a great premiere especially being it's the last one. I didn't really mind about the fast pacing. Now that Endgame has begun, I hope to continue on being a Brony until Gen 5 comes out.

[gingerninja666 487]

3 minutes ago, KH7672 said:

Okay, now I understand more what I'm not believing; it's the Mane 6's reaction along with him being the one delivering it. You're right he would be one to make it up but I feel it's a mistake to play it so straight with the cast.

Say instead, he plays it up and the Mane 6 get all teary eyed and say this:

To me this feels like something in line with Discord's feelings toward the group and the group's combined feelings toward him. They will certainly be insipred by him, but I can't buy they would fight for him because they think he's defeated and holding on. It's kinda more suspension of disbelief in the behavior that again I wouldn't question if it were Spike or Celestia. That is more what I mean with question why he specifically for every intent and purpose this scene conveys works for it.

It's weird because the speech hit me even though I knew beforehand that he was faking it. So I guess it's partly a performance thing. De lancie really sells the speech.

If the cast believe that he's really badly hurt, then I think they would totally buy a speech like the one he gave. Discord genuinely cares about the cast. We saw that in Twilight's Kingdom, and I think the cast know that. Their problems with him always stem from when he's healthy and messing around.

[DonMaguz 1,023]

I just watched the premiere for the second time and I have to say that it was more entertaining than the first time. It is still just an ok two-parter, but I guess that knowing what was going to happen made me enjoy the little things better.

Edited April 8, 2019 by DonMaguz

[Metemponychosis 1,259]

1 hour ago, gingerninja666 said:

I think you misunderstood this scene. I got the impression that it was Starswirl and the pillars who originally held the forest at bay, not the sisters.

But anyway, the reason the forest scene happened was because they needed to get rid of Celestia and Luna so that Twilight could save the day. Now, they could either get rid of her by having the villain beat her up or they could have her stuck doing something else. Which is what they went with.

You're right about him and the Pillars. I just checked the scene again and it was my mistake. Though, I still think that the scene was pointless because it made no impact on the rest of the episode, other than the sisters appearing when they had already put the plot moving with their announcement. The idea is that it's time that could've been better used.

1 hour ago, gingerninja666 said:

The whole Discord thing was mainly a character moment for him. He has an interesting push and pull relationship with Twilight. He believes that Twilight would make a great leader, but Twilight herself was spiralling into a mess of self doubt, so Discord does what he often does, he tries to help her in a massively manipulative and dickish way. You mentioned not liking the Princess Twilight Sparkle premiere and that kinda makes sense because Discord did a very similar thing in that episode too. I preferred it in this episode honestly. His speech was better. It shows how much he gets the mane cast. And how much he genuinely has their best interests at heart deep down.

I can't see it as a character moment. The problem isn't that Discord was there to encourage her, and that is why I didn't complain about him before going in, that was fine for it's intended purpose. The problem is that it went on for too long, after he had been hit by King Sombra. That is the kind of scene you do when you're going to kill off an important character, and while Discord is exactly that, nobody thought that he was gone. So, when I first saw that he had been hit, I was annoyed that it happened, because Discord was using magic just fine to fend of Sombra's attacks. Then, when I realized that he had allowed himself to be hit, I realized the episode had simply wasted time on an overdramatic scene, because everyone knew he was going to be fine, AND because it wasted time hammering in things we already know about the characters, the characters have heard countless times, and not to mention the whole crazy that is the way this episode pretends Twilight is doing anything different from what she usually does. Not to mention that it ought to be Celestia the one Twilight feels like she can't do without. The whole thing was misplaced and overused to me.

1 hour ago, gingerninja666 said:

We saw in Royal Problem that Celestia often has so much to do that she barely gets any sleep. All that time dealing with socialites and appointments and meetings. Luna underestimated how tiring that stuff can be and it wrecked her. She seems to rule Equestria for the good of her people, not because she enjoys the power.

Actually, no. What we saw was Luna managing even without any of Celestia's acquired skills (never mentioned) and with no consequences for screwing up. That whole segment of the episode was played for comedy, to show Luna being awkward, only to immediately turn serious when it was showing Celestia dealing with Luna's responsibilities, screwing up, and being completely helpless until Luna appeared to encourage her to do what she should've been doing from the start.

So, you're mentioning an episode that does a terrible job of giving any seriousness to Celestia's duty as a ruler, to the point Luna could pull it off without much going wrong. This, while we're talking about an episode where Twilight is freaking out while doing more of what she's been doing throughout the series and the cartoon never showed Celestia doing. This episode should've been about Celestia being ashamed she never was much use. At least it would've made more sense.

Man, I respect everyone's opinions, but this is a tough one. Maybe becauseI like Celestia so much.

About her reason for ruling, I get that. But there is nothing in what Celestia does that requires her to rule the nation. She raises the sun. Period. How does that equate to ruling the nation, particularly when she is a character in a cartoon that won't explore that? There is no reason for her to be there for one thousand years other than that she enjoys it, even if she was protecting Equestria like Twilight has been. And I don't mean it as a bad thing: if Celestia is a great ruler, she could recognize that and be there because of it, until she recognized one that could keep doing her job. The problem is that Celestia is still a cardboard void of inner workings, motivations and personality, and the cartoon won't give time to the idea that Celestia actually is doing a good job of ruling Equestria. She's cheery and that is it. You can't even say that she does it for the good of the people, because the cartoon never expanded on her and what is it that she does enough that you can come to that conclusion. Much less why she does it. Or even what impact she has in the lives of the denizens of Equestria.

1 hour ago, gingerninja666 said:

The Rainbow Power went back into the box at the end of Twilight's Kingdom, and then went on to become the castle and the map, unless I'm misremembering how that episode went. Fans always seemed to just assume that the cast still had the Rainbow power despite never using it again. But anyway, the idea of the episode was that Twilight had lost sight of things in her panic. Discord even says that. She put too much stock on needing the elements, needing the tree, to deal with massive threats like Sombra, when the power of friendship was in her the whole time. Like, yes the elements have been destroyed before, but not the entire tree the elements came from. Twi and Starswirl both say that they felt a disturbance in their very essences when the tree fell. It's not the same.

They didn't know they'd get the Rainbow Power when they first lost the Elements fixing the Tree. The point is that we already went through them losing the Elements. Their reaction should've been "Tsk... Again?", because they didn't need them in the past. Feels like they're learning the same lesson all over.

It's like we're supposed to feel for the second death of a character that died and the others made do without anyway. It's like Discord 'dying'... Nobody thought he was gone anymore than anyone thinks that they'll miss the Elements. It's pointless and just bogs down the pacing.

1 hour ago, DonMaguz said:

I could see most of what you complained about when I watched the episode, but honestly I didn't give those things too much weight. After all, the objective of the premiere was exactly what you've written in the last paragraph, to set up the final season.

Normal day at the forums when some finds problems all over and others simply enjoy the episode.

More power to you.

47 minutes ago, Truffles said:

Did the zombie ponies from Ponyville walk all the way to Canterlot? There's no indication they hopped on the train, and when Sombra appeared as they approached the main gate to the city, he teleported in separately - and not with them en masse -leading me to believe the army marched there on foot. Just how far is it to Canterlot, again? 

Wow. Those ponies walk fast! I mean, it used to take a train ride to reach Canterlot. Not to mention... That mountain is tall and steep.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Metemponychosis

[KH7672 1,604]

8 minutes ago, gingerninja666 said:

If the cast believe that he's really badly hurt, then I think they would totally buy a speech like the one he gave. Discord genuinely cares about the cast. We saw that in Twilight's Kingdom, and I think the cast know that. Their problems with him always stem from when he's healthy and messing around.

I know he cares about the cast, it's why he fakes it and even in my re-write they still see he cares. It's just the speech itself shouldn't carry any weight. You even agree with me that it's just platitudes, then it should be treated as such, platitudes from a friend who cares, who doesn't have any input on anything he's talking about but gosh darn does he care and that's enough for them, but they don't play it like that. The speech is meant to mean something and when you have the cast treat it with such weight I expect the person saying it to have as much weight on the subject he's speaking from.

You mention Twilight's Kingdom and you're right he does give an inspirational speech but there it actually means something. One because we followed from some of his perspective and two because we know why he says what he does about friendship, why the speech means as much to him as it does the cast because we saw how low he truly was.

[Ganondox 899]

3 hours ago, Truffles said:

 

Heh, I had the opposite reaction. I actually wanted more exposition to tie some of the plot points together, as I alluded to above.

 

To clarify, I wasn’t just referring to the actual exposition, I was also referring to all the lampshade hanging and meta-commentary. It was funny at first, but became too heavy handed fast. 

[gingerninja666 487]

11 minutes ago, Metemponychosis said:

I can't see it as a character moment. The problem isn't that Discord was there to encourage her, and that is why I didn't complain about him before going in, that was fine for it's intended purpose. The problem is that it went on for too long, after he had been hit by King Sombra. That is the kind of scene you do when you're going to kill off an important character, and while Discord is exactly that, nobody thought that he was gone. So, when I first saw that he had been hit, I was annoyed that it happened, because Discord was using magic just fine to fend of Sombra's attacks. Then, when I realized that he had allowed himself to be hit, I realized the episode had simply wasted time on an overdramatic scene, because everyone knew he was going to be fine, AND because it wasted time hammering in things we already know about the characters, the characters have heard countless times, and not to mention the whole crazy that is the way this episode pretends Twilight is doing anything different from what she usually does. Not to mention that it ought to be Celestia the one Twilight feels like she can't do without. The whole thing was misplaced and overused to me.

At the end of the episode Discord HIMSELF is mad that he wasted time on such an overdramatic scene. That's part of why I liked the scene so much and why I consider it a character moment.

I think for the people who don't like it, their main question is "what's the purpose of this?" when to me I like it just because it's a tour de force showcasing the sides of Discord's character. In the climax and resolution of the episode we see him range from snarky to sincere, to intensely manipulative to halfheartedly manipulative to pissy in an incredibly petty way. Seeing his performance come together is just satisfying for me. As I've said elsewhere, I knew for a fact before even watching the episode that Discord was faking it, and it still made me a bit emotional because of the performance and because even through the act Discord honestly meant it. Discord is the standout character in the episode by a mile.

19 minutes ago, Metemponychosis said:

They didn't know they'd get the Rainbow Power when they first lost the Elements fixing the Tree. The point is that we already went through them losing the Elements. Their reaction should've been "Tsk... Again?", because they didn't need them in the past. Feels like they're learning the same lesson all over.

Yes, but they weren't in the middle of a crisis situation when they gave up the elements. Or rather, them choosing to give up the elements immediately ended the crisis situation. And then they instantly got the box. The tree was still giving them stuff to use. It was still a presense. The elements were even still there to be taken out again in a dire situation, which they did in Shadow Play. When I think back on all the situations the cast have had to deal with, they've never had to deal with something like Sombra with absolutely nothing since the very first episode. With every villain they've faced since they've either had the elements (ROH, Shadow Play,), had the tree (Princess Twilight Sparkle, Twilight's Kingdom, School Raze), had an artifact or magic immediately available that worked like the tree (Canterlot Wedding, Crystalling, Crystal Empire, To Where and Back Again), or the vilain just wasn't that powerful (Cutie Map, Cutie Remark). I personally find that losing the elements AND the tree in the face of a being like Sombra immediately in your face is a significant enough escalation to make someone who's mind is already frazzled lose some kind of hope.

 

34 minutes ago, Metemponychosis said:

Actually, no. What we saw was Luna managing even without any of Celestia's acquired skills (never mentioned) and with no consequences for screwing up. That whole segment of the episode was played for comedy, to show Luna being awkward, only to immediately turn serious when it was showing Celestia dealing with Luna's responsibilities, screwing up, and being completely helpless until Luna appeared to encourage her to do what she should've been doing from the start.

I thought that Luna ruining the funding for the school children was played mostly serious. Like, I remember it making her genuinely sad, and I don't really remember there being many jokes in that scene. She doesn't suffer consequences for it, but only because she pawns all the consequences she was starting to amass onto Celestia. She leaves it up to her to fix it. So there are things that can go wrong in Celestia's line of work.

[Truffles 2,033]

Huh. Just remembered there was an animatic preview of:

Spoiler

Shining and Starswirl spreading the remains of Chrysalis' shattered throne all over the place.

Where was that scene? I thought it was meant for the premiere but perhaps it's from a later episode? If it was from this one and it got cut that might explain why parts of these episodes seemed rushed.

Now I need to go back and find that animatic....

EDIT: It's from the sad S9 preview and is full animation, so it must be part of a future episode. Now I'm curious which one, as the scenes in that promo seem dire.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Truffles

[Thrond 3,263]

Seeing all these complaints about continuity errors is weird to me because this show has never been that good at ongoing storytelling and I'm not entirely sure why people care so much about it. To me, that stuff has nothing to do with this show's core appeal. I don't care enough about what XYZ villain is able to do, or whether XYZ hero is presented as capable enough, which is probably why I'm so lukewarm about this premiere. 

7 hours ago, KH7672 said:

Now I know this seems hypocritical of me as I have defended Shadow Play and it's use of Starlight in a similar sense. But two things are different as honestly Starlight is no where near as prominent as Discord. Another difference is while I admit she is forced into the conflict of perspective in part 1 suddenly voicing concern out of the blue, part 2 does a better job as the audience perspective actually shift between both her and Twilight unlike here where we're solely on Twilight and the group. But most importantly Starlight's impact is also not as prominent in Shadow Play as the credit never goes to her. She stays the support the entire time. Discord on the other hand isn't even even support until the final charge and again he comes out of nowhere, inspite of a fine in-universe explanation. But then he doesn't only become support, he is suddenly elevated to the most important character.

In "Shadow Play," Starlight was the only voice of reason. You cannot convince me we were supposed to take Starswirl's arguments seriously, and Twilight was barely even part of that story. Starlight kinda took over the second part of that thing. Meanwhile Discord just pops around to say something silly, as he would, and eventually makes a melodramatic show of teaching Twilight a life lesson, like the awful jerk he is. He's comic relief here, whereas Starlight had a disproportionate part in pushing the story of "Shadow Play" forward. 

3 hours ago, Truffles said:

What's up with Cadance in this scene:

 This was right after Sombra was disintegrated, and it's not clear why she still thinks he's around, only to realize she was wrong. Just an odd scene

She was preoccupied and didn't notice what happened. 

Edited April 8, 2019 by AlexanderThrond

[BornAgainBrony 2,397]

1 hour ago, KH7672 said:

I know he cares about the cast, it's why he fakes it and even in my re-write they still see he cares. It's just the speech itself shouldn't carry any weight. You even agree with me that it's just platitudes, then it should be treated as such, platitudes from a friend who cares, who doesn't have any input on anything he's talking about but gosh darn does he care and that's enough for them, but they don't play it like that. The speech is meant to mean something and when you have the cast treat it with such weight I expect the person saying it to have as much weight on the subject he's speaking from

Discord was a Q knockoff from the beginning, and if you watch his interactions with Picard, it's the exact same method of teaching. Even Celestia isn't very different actually. I think Discord actually can't just be blunt. It would defy his nature, except maybe when he's depresssed. For example, "Best Gift Ever," is the closest he can get to showing how much he cares. It's simply what he is, and he can't do anything about it. Fluttershy quite clearly gets that.

[Ganondox 899]

3 hours ago, Metemponychosis said:

 

I could get Celestia, but why Luna?

 

My theory is that the only reason Celestia held out for 1,000 years was so that she would be reunited with Luna. After that finally happens, she discovers they are too busy to actually spend any time together, so now she’s trying to push it off onto Twilight. The reason Luna needs to retire too is because that’s the entire motivation for Celestia retiring, they need to retire together. 

[Metemponychosis 1,259]

45 minutes ago, gingerninja666 said:

At the end of the episode Discord HIMSELF is mad that he wasted time on such an overdramatic scene. That's part of why I liked the scene so much and why I consider it a character moment.

But I don't care about his time. I care about my time and the episode's allotted time to develop.

46 minutes ago, gingerninja666 said:

I think for the people who don't like it, their main question is "what's the purpose of this?" when to me I like it just because it's a tour de force showcasing the sides of Discord's character. In the climax and resolution of the episode we see him range from snarky to sincere, to intensely manipulative to halfheartedly manipulative to pissy in an incredibly petty way. Seeing his performance come together is just satisfying for me. As I've said elsewhere, I knew for a fact before even watching the episode that Discord was faking it, and it still made me a bit emotional because of the performance and because even through the act Discord honestly meant it. Discord is the standout character in the episode by a mile.

Let me ask you a honest question. How much do you like Discord, as a character?

Now, I agree with everything you're saying here, but that doesn't change the fact that we already know all the things this scene intends to transmit about Discord. In fact, the only reason this scene can be done the way it was is because we know those things. It's not even that the fans speculate Discord to be like that: the cartoon has openly characterized him as that in the past. So the scene informs nothing new.

Maybe I'm being petty when I say that it gets in the way if it meant so much for someone.

59 minutes ago, gingerninja666 said:

Yes, but they weren't in the middle of a crisis situation when they gave up the elements. Or rather, them choosing to give up the elements immediately ended the crisis situation. And then they instantly got the box. The tree was still giving them stuff to use. It was still a presense. The elements were even still there to be taken out again in a dire situation, which they did in Shadow Play. When I think back on all the situations the cast have had to deal with, they've never had to deal with something like Sombra with absolutely nothing since the very first episode. With every villain they've faced since they've either had the elements (ROH, Shadow Play,), had the tree (Princess Twilight Sparkle, Twilight's Kingdom, School Raze), had an artifact or magic immediately available that worked like the tree (Canterlot Wedding, Crystalling, Crystal Empire, To Where and Back Again), or the vilain just wasn't that powerful (Cutie Map, Cutie Remark). I personally find that losing the elements AND the tree in the face of a being like Sombra immediately in your face is a significant enough escalation to make someone who's mind is already frazzled lose some kind of hope.

But they didn't know any of that. As far as they knew, the tree might have just sat there, inert, never to give them back the Elements, they might never have figured out the box, and they were in dire situations without the Elements, which is exactly what brought Rainbow Power. This whole mess exists only because the cartoon feels like it needs to upstage the previous season. First it was the Elements, then it was the Rainbow Power, and then the Elements again. Now, it's just... They're together. Talk about subtlety. This is why the Elements were a good idea to begin with: their magic only existed because they were friends, and didn't work when they weren't friends. It's the same lesson from the first episode from this bloated mess that the show has become. Forgive me the rant.

Honestly, King Sombra was the biggest non-threat in these scenes. Now that I think of it, it only makes sense that they were afraid he's there because Celestia and Luna were still out of the episode. And that is from the perspective of the characters.

From the perspective of the audience, it makes me wonder if the whole scene with the forest really was just added later, as filler, because I don't see why they can't teleport to Canterlot, vaporize Sombra again, and go back to fighting the vines. None of it makes any sense: six ponies with gardening tools were keeping the things at bay for some time. It's like a parody. It baffles me that Celestia and Luna are gone, but Twilight or Cadance don't know how to contact them, but Star Swirl does, to fight the damn plants, not to save the Crystal Empire. Cadance is Celestia's niece! I think... In the cartoon Cadance simply parachuted into the story and it's in the books she's her adopted niece. I don't know if the cartoon ever touched that.

1 hour ago, gingerninja666 said:

I thought that Luna ruining the funding for the school children was played mostly serious. Like, I remember it making her genuinely sad, and I don't really remember there being many jokes in that scene. She doesn't suffer consequences for it, but only because she pawns all the consequences she was starting to amass onto Celestia. She leaves it up to her to fix it. So there are things that can go wrong in Celestia's line of work.

I don't want to start a discussion about that episode here, so I'll leave at this: if the episode wanted to take Celestia's job seriously, Luna should've failed as hard as Celestia, before Luna helped her. Maybe even more, because what Celestia was expected to do was obvious and the episode completely ignored that Celestia would need to know many, many things about how to run a government. At least show Celestia helping Luna, instead of letting her get away with things.

Luna being sad is part of the joke. And we're talking about ruling a nation with neighbors like the yaks. A consequence was getting Equestria into a war or something of the sort. Not "schoolfillies can't go on school trip because the princess didn't smile for the photo". And I'm sorry, but when you start talking about things after the episode it goes into that speculation territory that has more to do with headcanon than with actual canon. Not that I don't agree, but Celestia never dealt with those either. And it was played as a joke too.

[bwrosas 252]

This premiere  did establish one thing, Grogar is not be mess with.

[Metemponychosis 1,259]

51 minutes ago, Ganondox said:

My theory is that the only reason Celestia held out for 1,000 years was so that she would be reunited with Luna. After that finally happens, she discovers they are too busy to actually spend any time together, so now she’s trying to push it off onto Twilight. The reason Luna needs to retire too is because that’s the entire motivation for Celestia retiring, they need to retire together. 

In my head, it doesn't even make sense that they don't have time to spend together simply because they have a job. Have these people ever heard of vacations? What the hell is Celestia doing with that nation that she doesn't have time to rest for a while and be with her sister and vice-versa.

Jesus. Imagine if ruling a nation was actually like that. Imagine the history books teaching kids that kings and queens were resigning because it's too much work. Or that countries had problems with people being elected to be president because it's too much work.

I don't know. Doesn't sit right with me. Maybe if the episode had gone there, maybe. It still wouldn't make sense to me.

[gingerninja666 487]

25 minutes ago, Metemponychosis said:

But I don't care about his time. I care about my time and the episode's allotted time to develop.

Let me ask you a honest question. How much do you like Discord, as a character?

Now, I agree with everything you're saying here, but that doesn't change the fact that we already know all the things this scene intends to transmit about Discord. In fact, the only reason this scene can be done the way it was is because we know those things. It's not even that the fans speculate Discord to be like that: the cartoon has openly characterized him as that in the past. So the scene informs nothing new.

Maybe I'm being petty when I say that it gets in the way if it meant so much for someone.

I'm not even a massive Discord fan generally, I just thought he was really well done here.

 

25 minutes ago, Metemponychosis said:

But they didn't know any of that. As far as they knew, the tree might have just sat there, inert, never to give them back the Elements, they might never have figured out the box, and they were in dire situations without the Elements, which is exactly what brought Rainbow Power. This whole mess exists only because the cartoon feels like it needs to upstage the previous season. First it was the Elements, then it was the Rainbow Power, and then the Elements again. Now, it's just... They're together. Talk about subtlety. This is why the Elements were a good idea to begin with: their magic only existed because they were friends, and didn't work when they weren't friends. It's the same lesson from the first episode from this bloated mess that the show has become. Forgive me the rant.

As long as the tree existed and was giving them things, they had reason to hope. When they recieved the box there was this sense of optimism. The box was a mystery, but it was something to work towards. In their darkest hour they could think about the box and hoped it contained the answers they needed. The cutie map is the tree's will guiding them to wherever they're needed, and they believe that the tree picked them for a reason.

You're right, they learned this in episode 1. That was what Discord was saying. They'd lost sight of that. They knew all this once, but over the years the tree and ofshoots of it's power became more and more embroiled in their lives. It's not just that they lost the elements. The lost the thing powering the elements too. I guess I just saw them needing to be reminded of an early lesson they lost sight of to be appropriate for the final season.

Edited April 8, 2019 by gingerninja666

[bwrosas 252]

Anyone want to a stab and say come later on, that it's relieved that one of monsters Grogar created was Discord, and Discord tells The MANE 6/7/8 of Grogar's plans