general media Forced Diversity

[Cruising 9]

What are your thoughts on forced diversity in entertainment media?

Spoiler

And why is she so perfect?

 

[Black Sabbath 2,486]

I don't believe it's an actual thing. Complaining about it is just a fancy way of saying "I don't want women/blacks/gay people etc in my media" without sounding sexist/racist/homophobic etc. 

[Anneal 2,197]

10 minutes ago, Black Sabbath said:

I don't believe it's an actual thing. Complaining about it is just a fancy way of saying "I don't want women/blacks/gay people etc in my media" without sounding sexist/racist/homophobic etc. 

The term "forced diversity" basically came from Gamergate, though when you think about it, nobody is forcing you to watch certain movies or play certain video games, so the term is inherently trying to cover up the fact that you're being racist/sexist/homophobic. However, there are legitimate criticisms if people believe that those minority characters are being portrayed in a stereotypical manner, or minority topics aren't treated as respectfully as normal topics. 

Nowadays though, some gamers have realized that "forced diversity" sounds too euphemistic and have resorted to other terms such as "historical accuracy" or "gaming ethics" as an excuse for not having minorities in video games. 

[Black Sabbath 2,486]

7 minutes ago, Anneal said:

However, there are legitimate criticisms if people believe that those minority characters are being portrayed in a stereotypical manner, or minority topics aren't treated as respectfully as normal topics. 

That's a separate criticism though, and one that's rarely voiced by the same same kind of people who talks about "forced diversity".

[Goat-kun 2,527]

Ravioli, ravioli, there's nothing wrong with Spider Loli.

 

Now that that's settled, let's clean up all this straw laying around the thread. There is a clear difference between diversity and forced diversity. Forced diversity is pretty much a part of the left's concealed intolerance as it reduces each and every character down to their gender, sexual orientation, and color of their skin. You can observe how the lefties in this thread immediately locked onto those superficial traits. They can't see any character as something more than the sum of their color and genitalia ... and who they wanna pork. The same goes for the Hollywood elite. That's why their characters tend to be unrelatable pieces of trash.

 

Now let's be clear about something: Black Panther is not forced diversity. He's an established character with an established backstory same as Thor and Iron Man. The media did portray this movie as something that it's not, but that's their problem. Can't tell rabid socialists not to politicize literally everything under the sun.

 

Then there are characters like Cpt Marvel and Rey. That's not forced diversity either. It's just more of lefties putting politics before everything else, thus creating boring pieces of animated cardboard that can do everything and then some. Take that you incels!

 

Then there's making preexisting characters black, LGTBINARF, fat, unattractive, Muslim and all that good oppression pyramid jazz just to make a political point. Now that's forced diversity. It can also be argued that using those oppression pyramid traits for new characters can be considered forced diversity if those traits go against the established worldbuilding and/or visual design, or if those traits play an overwhelmingly large role when it comes to a character's identity. For instance: having a fat Samoan woman in G.I. Joe is forced diversity, but having an athletic Samoan woman with American citizenship would not. Having a Muslim superhero leans heavily to the forced diversity, but having a Muslim that is a superhero does not. Context matters.

[TBD 17,254]

This out of topic but Pani Parker is technically the “anime version” of Spider-Man from a  multiverse of spidermen/women. Like spider pig is the cartoon version of Spider-Man..multiverse=diversity.

[The Recherche 29,967]

There are exceptions for everything, but I'm sorry; forced diversity tends to be something people notice because they want to notice it. As I said; there are exceptions, especially in history related stories, but almost everywhere else it does not matter.

[Cruising 9]

@Goat-kun

Spoiler

I wanna make love to the entirety of that post, God damn. We need moar immaculately constructed walls of text in this thread, regardless of the position taken. 

 

[cuteycindyhoney 13,306]

As a serious Doctor Who fan, I've been seeing lots of forced diversity type complaints about the current episodes. I think Jodie Whittaker did a great job, but there are so many cry-baby complaints about how the Doctor can't be a woman. I have seen people actually posting "I refuse to watch Nurse Who." These idiots formally stated that they think that in real life, women CAN NOT be doctors! Let's not get into all the wailing over characters being gay. It's making all Whovians look bad!

 

People passed bricks over this scene!

 

[Anneal 2,197]

13 minutes ago, Cruising said:

@Goat-kun

  Reveal hidden contents

I wanna make love to the entirety of that post, God damn. We need moar immaculately constructed walls of text in this thread, regardless of the position taken. 

 

Not sure what's so good about that post when he literally just dismissed all of the previous posts before as being "lefties". I'm not even liberal, I'm just pointing out how "forced diversity" has been used as an euphemistic term for "any minority character I don't like that's in a video game or TV show". I have never mentioned that media should focus only on those traits, but that minority characters should not be stereotyped or offensive and that topics regarding minorities should be treated respectfully. Besides that, personality and story is ultimately what's more important than trying to over-emphasize their minority traits. 

What can be considered "forced diversity" is also pretty arbitrary. People complained about Tracer and Soldier 76 being "forced diversity" in Overwatch despite the fact of them being LGBT is only mentioned or revealed for a few pages at most. Ellie from The Last of Us was another example of this "forced diversity" people complained about before.

[KillerKingBakudan 702]

The ones who deny forced diversity exists don't have a clue what it actually means. That's not to say there aren't people who blatantly misuse that term to justify their own biases, but when used in the proper context, it's not something that can be refuted.

So here's the breakdown on what it really is. The value a character has will ultimately come down to how well they are written. Do they feel human? Do they have some credible history to them? Do they have wants and needs? Do they have insecurities they're struggling with? Are they flawed? Are they prone to making mistakes? Can you relate to them? That is development. Things like that are what make characters likeable in the end, regardless of race, gender or sexual preference. 

Characters that aren't developed give you no reason to care about them. If they're pushed out into the limelight like you're expected to appreciate them for just being there, that makes them forced. "Forced diversity" is just one highly distinct way of doing that; often by taking an existing character that's typically white, male or straight, and changing one or more of those characteristics for no apparent reason other than to fill a quota. 

The people who recognize forced diversity, by its proper meaning, as a legitimate criticism in modern storytelling aren't against diversity in and of itself. They just want diverse characters that are original and aren't so lazily put together. 

It's good you mentioned Into the Spider-Verse because that's a movie that does diversity right. Miles Morales used to be such a bland character when he first appeared in the comics; always kicking lots of ass, always making the right decisions, always showing up at the right time, never showing any hesitation or worry, having no vulnerabilities from his personal life. He was written to be perfect in every way. Good characters are NEVER perfect. 

Then we get Into the Spider-verse about a decade later, and to my surprise, he's not even close to being perfect. That means they FIXED him. As a kid, he has his own aspirations that conflict with everything his parents want for him. He knows they mean well, yet that's always been a source of tension in his life. Who hasn't experienced that growing up? And as a superhero newbie whose powers just sprang on him, he got dumped in situations he couldn't prepare for. Embarassing run-ins with Gwen at his private school, struggling to get used to crawling up walls and slinging on webs without getting himself killled, getting caught up in Kingpin's plans, being pressured by the other Spider-people to prove himself, LOSING somebody close to him... his actions in each of these events were not only believable, but relatable. He made mistakes that I could see myself doing, and there wasn't a single moment where I didn't find myself wanting him to pull through it all. By the time he got his shit together, I was totally convinced he earned his place as the new Spider-Man of his own universe. 

Miles has been revised as a character worthy of my respect. What race he is means nothing to me. NOTHING. Sony's effort at writing him shows. They put in the work. And that's all that matters. You don't get that with SJW creations like the Ghostbusters 2016 cast. When you don't flesh out your characters, and they're clearly made to be substitutes for somebody else who was a different race or gender, you get diversity just for the sake of it, and that by definition makes it forced. 

Because let's be real. If superficial details like that are the writers' only priority when creating characters, that just shows how much of a racist/sexist/heterophobe THEY are. Not the people complaining when it's forced.

By the way, I had no issues with Peni Parker. I wished she was in the movie more, but her being an anime schoolgirl piloting a mechanized spider-robot didn't bother me in the least. At least she wasn't a Gwen clone.

Edited March 3, 2019 by KillerKingBakudan

[Cruising 9]

46 minutes ago, Anneal said:

Besides that, personality and story is ultimately what's more important than trying to over-emphasize their minority traits. 

I cannot agree enough with that sentiment. Well... I suppose when speaking on entertainment media wherein story/ characterization is paramount to one's overall enjoyment. Video games as a medium are not one of these instances (imho). What matters most about a game is whether it is fun to play. Does the gameplay itself satisfy the player. Story, characters, music, and admittedly even graphics are all secondary or even tertiary in comparison to the metaphorical "meat" of the experience (I say this being a massive graphics whore myself). That being said, there are, of course, outliers and general exceptions. The RPG genre in and of itself pretty much demands at least a sizable amount of attention be paid by the developers to creating a compelling narrative and interesting characters. A game like Overwatch, on the other hand, uses character traits and backstory as flourish; in essence, a superficial method of making the product desirable to the consumer. I am not merely referring to Tracer's inclusion, but that of all the characters and how they are portrayed in and outside the actual game. Adding superficial flourishes to a game is not inherently negative. On the contrary, it can make the game feel like it has SOUL. Just look at all the superficial crap crammed into games like Super Mario Odyssey or A Hat in Time. Instead of detracting from the experiences it instead enhances them with a gonzo, whimsical charm.

The problem with "forced diversity" is that it instantaneously breaks immersion in the world that these devs/writers are attempting to create. It feels like the only reason these types of characters are being included is to gain praise from those in support of the whole inclusivity movement. This is why there only exists an outcry over NEW entertainment media. Back in the 90s and even early 2000s, there were plenty of series focused on minorities, females, etc. Look at how beloved shows like Static Shock or Kim Possible/MLaaTR are amongst cartoon communities. Those series went out of their way to do something AGAINST the grain of societal norms. That is the very embodiment of soul. Nowadays, these writers throw in "diverse" characters as a safety net. They know if they include a protagonist who's female, black, gay, trans, etc, that they will automatically be safe from the vast majority of criticisms no matter how shitty their work actually is. That isn't "brave" in the least. It is cowardly and shows lack of artistic integrity. And this mentality isn't exclusive to the Western world either. Just look at Catherine: Full Body for a recent example. A game wherein the main character was always portrayed as exclusivly straight now has the option of choosing a literal tranny as a romantic interest. Truth be told, I do find Rin to be incredibly sexy, personally, and the fact that he is a biological male makes him all the more irresistible, but it seriously irks me as to WHY he was included to begin with. If these devs/ writers wanted to be "brave" they should have tried putting "diverse" characters like this in games back in the 90s. Like Poison from Street Fighter for instance.

But regardless of all those facts opinions highlighted above, back to the topic at hand. Yes, in movies, tv shows, comic books, anime, manga, etc etc, the absolutely most important thing is "personality and story" as you so succinctly put it.

[Goat-kun 2,527]

1 hour ago, Anneal said:

I'm not even liberal

Of course you're not. Never said you were.

1 hour ago, Anneal said:

I'm just pointing out how "forced diversity" has been used as an euphemistic term for "any minority character I don't like that's in a video game or TV show". I have never mentioned that media should focus only on those traits, but that minority characters should not be stereotyped or offensive and that topics regarding minorities should be treated respectfully. Besides that, personality and story is ultimately what's more important than trying to over-emphasize their minority traits.

And I'm pointing out how you are being dishonest about my side of the argument. You're one of those people who'll sacrifice frustrated fans for the perceived greater good of pushing your notion of diversity represented by skin pigmentation, genitalia, and shagging preferences. It's not that media should only focus on those traits. They should never focus on those traits. The artists can do whatever they want and the market shall decide. And why should one treat any such superficial trait with respect? Why should there be no offense? That's a mental authoritarian position to have.

1 hour ago, Anneal said:

What can be considered "forced diversity" is also pretty arbitrary. People complained about Tracer and Soldier 76 being "forced diversity" in Overwatch despite the fact of them being LGBT is only mentioned or revealed for a few pages at most. Ellie from The Last of Us was another example of this "forced diversity" people complained about before.

It's not so much forced diversity as it is using gayness to sell more stuff. The legacy media eats it up and spreads it all over, and the frustrated fans who disagree predictably fuel the publicity wave with rageposts. Well, if that's your idea of progress then you're more of a capitalist pig than you're letting on

[Black Sabbath 2,486]

1 hour ago, KillerKingBakudan said:

You don't get that with SJW creations like the Ghostbusters 2016 cast. When you don't flesh out your characters, and they're clearly made to be substitutes for somebody else who was a different race or gender, you get diversity just for the sake of it, and that by definition makes it forced. 

This part more or less sums up my issue with the term. If you're gonna complain about shitty writing, complain about the shitty writing. But don't pin the blame on the diversity. Ghostbusters 2016 were a shitty film, but it'd be equally shitty if all the cast members were guys. 

And on a sidenote, am I the only one who's noticed that the "forced diversity" complaint isn't very consistent. I mean, I know a lot of people who constantly complains about forced diversity yet who didn't have a problem with Tom Cruise in the last samurai or Tilda Swinton in Doctor Strange or that Gods of Egypt movie? While the latter two examples did generate some outcry on Tumblr (which were equally dumb), many who usally talks about "forced diversity" and how it's ruining media either stayed oddly silent or flatout defended those casting choices. 

[AveryGamerDude 4,640]

My thoughts? WHO CARES?! So what if there's diversity in pop culture? Is it hurting you? No??Then stop acting like it is!

[Misty Shadow 7,837]

Yeah, I'm sorry to say that forced diversity is real and is not just a conspiracy believed by crazy racist rednecks. It's called tokenism, and it's a term also used by the regressive left to insult any minority on the right who speaks out, as well as continue to attack any company they don't like even after they get their way. Most people agree that having a diverse cast is a good thing, as do I, but diversity works best in a story when it's written in naturally with a pure motive to tell a good story about characters from all sorts of different backgrounds. Typically, however, minorities end up getting written into stories simply to make the creators of a product look better for the media and writers are often not given the chance to make a truly good minority character who learns and grows as a result of mistakes because of a company's fear about being called racist if they don't portray said minority character as perfect. Most normal people have no problem with strong minority characters, but they want them to be well-written characters too and not just corporate products. 

 

[Goat-kun 2,527]

11 minutes ago, Black Sabbath said:

This part more or less sums up my issue with the term. If you're gonna complain about shitty writing, complain about the shitty writing. But don't pin the blame on the diversity. Ghostbusters 2016 were a shitty film, but it'd be equally shitty if all the cast members were guys.

That shitty writing does not come out of thin air. Someone made that shitty writing and then told us all that we're X for not liking it.

 

12 minutes ago, Black Sabbath said:

And on a sidenote, am I the only one who's noticed that the "forced diversity" complaint isn't very consistent. I mean, I know a lot of people who constantly complains about forced diversity yet who didn't have a problem with Tom Cruise in the last samurai or Tilda Swinton in Doctor Strange or that Gods of Egypt movie? While the latter two examples did generate some outcry on Tumblr (which were equally dumb), many who usally talks about "forced diversity" and how it's ruining media either stayed oddly silent or flatout defended those casting choices. 

They didn't complain cause those movies never had a fanbase. Ghostbusters did and they changed the formula for the worse, then they used the feminist card to defend their bad decisions. I do believe there are a lot of right-wing guys who rage about diversity who would go watch an all-female Ghostbusters under the right conditions, if you know what I mean  Those same people do praise Alita, don't they.

[Black Sabbath 2,486]

11 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

They didn't complain cause those movies never had a fanbase

Let's see, Doctor Strange was based on a relatively popular comic book, Last Samurai were based on an actual event (and I think we all know how concered about historical accuracy some people are) and gods of Egypt were based on actual Egyptian mythology. How is it not forced diversity? We both know that people would have complained had the roles been reversed.

Edited March 3, 2019 by Black Sabbath

[Goat-kun 2,527]

2 minutes ago, Black Sabbath said:

Let's see, Doctor Strange was based on a relatively popular comic book, Last Samurai were based on an actual event (and I think we all know how concered about historical accuracy some people are) and gods of Egypt were based on actual Egyptian mythology. How is it not forced diversity?

And people cared about those things before the movies? Can you even name me more than five Egyptian gods and what they do out of memory? Plus there is something to be said about actors that can pull of roles. Movie Mandarin was white too if we're at it. And the original comic book Director Fury was white. Was there an outrage? The more well-known is the role, the lesser the chance that a change will be successful.

[Cruising 9]

24 minutes ago, Black Sabbath said:

This part more or less sums up my issue with the term. If you're gonna complain about shitty writing, complain about the shitty writing. But don't pin the blame on the diversity. Ghostbusters 2016 were a shitty film, but it'd be equally shitty if all the cast members were guys. 

This is irrefutable truth. While the inclusivity pandering definitely added an extra layer of cringe, the entire movie was such a trainwreck that even an all male cast would have a nearly imperceptible effect on the movie's quality. The problem with Ghostbusters 2016 casting was they went for very "low-brow" actresses and humor in general. The old cast were actually classy while still funny. Can't replace actors that have passed away unfortunately (unless you wanna pull a Rogue One; which was coincidentally a movie with abundant diversity pandering yet unironically the best Star Wars film I've seen since Revenge of the Sith).

[Gestum 2,493]

Authors have written characters in a certain way in order to sell more books since the moment people started to sell books. Why is it that people don't give half a shit if a character is written to be into sports in order to get people who like sport to buy that book, but if someone writes a black character in order to appeal to that demographic it's the worst thing ever? 

 

[Black Sabbath 2,486]

12 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

Can you even name me more than five Egyptian gods and what they do out of memory?

Ra is the god of the sun. 

Geb is the god of the earth. 

Nut is the godess of the sky. 

Then we Set who is the god of the deserts, chaos, foreigners and some other stuff. 

Isis was married to Osiris (god of the underwold) and was the godess of magic. 

Anubis was the god of mummification and was the son to either Set or Osiris (that depends on what myth you're looking at). 

12 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

And people cared about those things before the movies?

Just wanna be clear, your argument is that it's only forced diversity if people care about it. It's not about the quality of the writing or anything like that?

 

[Twilight Luna 31,339]

13 minutes ago, Goat-kun said:

And people cared about those things before the movies? Can you even name me more than five Egyptian gods and what they do out of memory? Plus there is something to be said about actors that can pull of roles. Movie Mandarin was white too if we're at it. And the original comic book Director Fury was white. Was there an outrage? The more well-known is the role, the lesser the chance that a change will be successful.

 

I didn’t remember there being an outrage over Fury being black in the movies. He was black in the Ultimate universe and looked just likeSamuel L Jackson. 

[KillerKingBakudan 702]

1 hour ago, Black Sabbath said:

This part more or less sums up my issue with the term. If you're gonna complain about shitty writing, complain about the shitty writing. But don't pin the blame on the diversity. Ghostbusters 2016 were a shitty film, but it'd be equally shitty if all the cast members were guys. 

And on a sidenote, am I the only one who's noticed that the "forced diversity" complaint isn't very consistent. I mean, I know a lot of people who constantly complains about forced diversity yet who didn't have a problem with Tom Cruise in the last samurai or Tilda Swinton in Doctor Strange or that Gods of Egypt movie? While the latter two examples did generate some outcry on Tumblr (which were equally dumb), many who usally talks about "forced diversity" and how it's ruining media either stayed oddly silent or flatout defended those casting choices. 

I'll blame diversity anytime it reeks of animosity toward whatever it's aiming to replace. Characters that have accumulated a large following over the span of several years if not decades should be left the hell alone. Period. It's not directly responsible for bad writing, but it IS enough to alienate people who only want more of what they're familiar with. You can't tell me that fans of Black Panther would be open to making him transgendered for example.

And for your information, I didn't like the casting choices in those other movies you mentioned either. I know you love fishing for double standards, but I'm not somebody you can just paint with the same collectivist brush as whitewashing enthusiasts. And I've read there were a lot of complaints about Tilda Swinton. The director wouldn't have to come out and explain that decision if it wasn't such a glaring topic.

Edited March 4, 2019 by KillerKingBakudan

[Black Sabbath 2,486]

17 minutes ago, KillerKingBakudan said:

You can't tell me you'd be open to having a korean Blade or a transgendered Black Panther.

Who says I'm not?  

And speaking of accusing people of having double standards;

17 minutes ago, KillerKingBakudan said:

Don't lump everybody into one viewpoint and accuse them of making double standards. 

I'm not, I'm just saying that as a whole the "forced diversity" complainers seem a bit hypocritical. I'm sure that there's plenty of people who complain about it regardless of what race/gender/sexuality etc is being forced but that doesn't change that a large part doesn't. Heck, I have the same complaint against people who are against whitewashing. 

Edit: "But there were a lot of complaints about Tina Swinton. Doesn't that prove you wrong?" I hear you say. Well, no. Mainly because said complaints came not from those normally complaining about "forced diversity" but rather from, well, tumblr that complained about whitewashing. Which was stupid and hypocritical since a lot of those who complained are otherwise for changing the race, gender etc of characters. 

17 minutes ago, KillerKingBakudan said:

It's not directly responsible for bad writing, but it IS enough to alienate people who only want more of what they're familiar with.

And maybe those people aren't the target audience for a reboot? 

This is also ignoring the fact that people comain about "forced diversity" even in media that aren't based on anything else.

Edited March 4, 2019 by Black Sabbath