general media Forced Diversity

[Thuja 3,658]

2 minutes ago, Mesme Rize said:

As a Bisexual myself, i don't feel the need for some sort of representation in movies, TV or video games, because it makes them seem a bit obnoxious when they constantly say "Hey, look at me. I am Bixexual. Please love me." Sure, i exaggerate, but the point here is that not everyone in the LGBT community wants representation. Most of us want to live a normal life and i for one pretty much do that, without being seen obnoxious with the people who are around me.

I know that most media outlets get it kinda wrong but at least we're finally getting something...  I know that not everyone wants representation, that's perfectly fine, you do you.  Some of us would love some though, we want our gender identity/sexual orientation to actually be normalized.  It's perfectly normal to not be cisgender or heterosexual, just because it's not the "usual" does not make it different or strange.  I'd love it if someone one day can just say "I'm gay" without having doubt cast on them, not having to worry about someone punching them for holding their partner's hand in public, etc.  A world where a person can bring their partner home for the first time and not have any potential problems with their parents would be ideal.  I think getting representation in media is an important step towards that because some people only learn about LGBT+ things from the media they consume.   I mean, how many people are more comfortable with people like us because of the media they've seen.  That can be a double edged sword though but it usually depends on how the media portrays them.  I'd rather have the obnoxious "Hey, I'm Bisexual, please love me!!" instead of the bisexual who kinda has this rape-y vibe going about them and their sole purpose is to "seduce" the protagonist.

[Goat-kun 2,500]

17 hours ago, Thuja said:

I'd have to disagree with that, not everyone looks like/acts like the stereotypical gay.  Being gay needs to be explicit sometimes.  We don't exist in public unless we state that we are not heterosexual or cisgender.  Humanity as a whole is Heteronormative, you're assumed het until proven otherwise.  That's also why a lot of het people complain when they're hit on by the same sex when at a gay club or at pride because in that small space, you're assumed LGBT+ until proven otherwise.  We as LGBT+ people do not exist in the public unless we actually announce who we are.  So yes, announcements are sometimes necessary and personally I'm glad that there's more diversity in the media.  Cisgender, hetero, white guys have more than enough representation in the media and I highly doubt that'll change any time soon.

Boy, being gay sure is something, huh. Do you also grow wings? A tail? It's just your sexual orientation, not the way of Bushido. What you want here is for a character's gayness to be a loud political statement. Why do you feel such need to exist in public as a gay person? It makes you seem that's all you really are.

[Black Sabbath 2,484]

On 3/5/2019 at 8:57 PM, Goat-kun said:

The question is simple: Would that still be Pinkie? Can you even describe her?

Is Thanos from Infinity War still Thanos? Is Batman from All Star Batman and Robin still Batman? Both of those characters had much bigger parts of them changed then Pinkie would have in this hypothetical, yet people seems fine with them. 

23 hours ago, Jedishy said:

The difference is the tool bag studios, actors, and "fans" that call the complainers bigots for taking issue with it like they would any other freaking change to the beloved characters.

But they don't take the same issue with it though? Most people didn't care about, say, how the marvel movies changed Thanos or how the Deadpool movie ditched Deadpool's multiple personalities. But they put up such a fight when it comes to changing a character's sexuality or race. 

23 hours ago, Jedishy said:

Yea and I do not buy that a large part of it was bigoted.

And I don't buy that it wasn't. 

23 hours ago, Jedishy said:

First, you dont need to steal other works and blend them into something new to make it diverse. You can make new characters.

Again, do you apply that logic to every piece of media that changes large part of a character? The complaint that they "can make new characters" is pretty dumb when both DC and Marvel are notorious for changing large parts of characters at a whim. 

23 hours ago, Jedishy said:

Second, they are from the same studio and if a company fails you time and again people tend not to trust it and do business again.

I disagree. There are so many writers employed at Marvel and DC. Instantly dismissing them because their coworkers failed is just dumb. What about the time they succeed? You can't tell me that Harley and Poison Ivy were meant to get together from the start, yet their relationship is well written. Should that relationship not have happened because other people called you a bad name? 

23 hours ago, Jedishy said:

Then they can deal with the complaints. You screw up what made me love a character for the sake of soothing the feelings of non fan whiners I am not going to be happy

And to think people tried to make it look like I was placing to much value on a character's sexuality and race. 

On 3/5/2019 at 10:02 PM, Jedishy said:

Yes yes it would be worse. Why because if its not Pinkie to those who love her that is by definition a worse version of her.

But it's the same character, just in a different colour and gender. 

[Steve Piranha 28,876]

5 hours ago, Goat-kun said:

Boy, being gay sure is something, huh. Do you also grow wings? A tail? It's just your sexual orientation, not the way of Bushido. What you want here is for a character's gayness to be a loud political statement. Why do you feel such need to exist in public as a gay person? It makes you seem that's all you really are.

 

Indeed, and that’s what I hate about identity politics. Like I mentioned, they eat, drink, breathe, bathe, and sleep on it. Does it takes another minority in both race and lifestyle to call out on it? I do have some of those, but I’m finding myself getting away from hispanics and latinos more and more because I being Hispanic seems to be the only thing they notice about me, and that’s actually derogatory  . Funny that I’ve faced discrimination from “my people” more times than the “evil white supremacists” 

[Goat-kun 2,500]

17 hours ago, Black Sabbath said:

Is Thanos from Infinity War still Thanos? Is Batman from All Star Batman and Robin still Batman? Both of those characters had much bigger parts of them changed then Pinkie would have in this hypothetical, yet people seems fine with them.

Do those characters still look and act like themselves? What are the changes and how do those changes add to the characters?

 

You're arguing two different things at once, probably cause you've realized that there are indeed changes that can break a character. Things aren't as relative as you hoped, huh. Still waiting for that Pinkie definition.

 

Anyhow, as I've mentioned, big changes can keep a character intact. Then there are instances when a character is not popular so they recycle or remake them. You emphasize the story, so you must appreciate that these changes are, or at least should be, made to better the story. Changes picked from the oppression pyramid usually make sense only to political activists who think activism equals story. It alters but adds nothing to the character outside the oppression narrative. Like, why would you change Superman's day job? Why would you make Batman a poor kid from a huge family? Why would you make them gay? Sure there is a niche for experimental stories. Just keep them out of the middle lane. You've mentioned Poison Ivy. In her case, having no sex preference at all is not farfetched, but turning her into an exclusive lesbian detracts from her character. Can you tell us what's the main story line in that comic and how many panels does that part of the story have?

[Steve Piranha 28,876]

I just happen to have stumbled upon this video and supposed I could share this here 

 

[Ashen Pathfinder 16,152]

Enough with the accusations people; focus on the point of discussion. Not the person.

And if you're just posting images cuz you think it's funny; don't. This may not be in the debate symposium, but post quality and off-topic rules exist for the entire forums in general.

[Jeric 46,835]

On 3/5/2019 at 9:48 PM, Thuja said:

I know that most media outlets get it kinda wrong but at least we're finally getting something...  I know that not everyone wants representation, that's perfectly fine, you do you.  Some of us would love some though, we want our gender identity/sexual orientation to actually be normalized.  It's perfectly normal to not be cisgender or heterosexual, just because it's not the "usual" does not make it different or strange.  I'd love it if someone one day can just say "I'm gay" without having doubt cast on them, not having to worry about someone punching them for holding their partner's hand in public, etc.  A world where a person can bring their partner home for the first time and not have any potential problems with their parents would be ideal.  I think getting representation in media is an important step towards that because some people only learn about LGBT+ things from the media they consume.   I mean, how many people are more comfortable with people like us because of the media they've seen.  That can be a double edged sword though but it usually depends on how the media portrays them.  I'd rather have the obnoxious "Hey, I'm Bisexual, please love me!!" instead of the bisexual who kinda has this rape-y vibe going about them and their sole purpose is to "seduce" the protagonist.

I don’t know if I agree with you here. While I thought that Love Simon was a cute romantic romp, it felt more like it was made to go alongside In & Out at times. I honestly think we are at a point where a gay character can be introduced without the audience even being told he’s gay, or making a big deal about it. Pride parades are different than fictional characters. Same with solidarity during legal battles. Unless you are a writer and want to make a gay character like Quagmire or Barney Stinson who’s sexual appetite is one of their defining traits, it should be a limited element of their characterization. Where is my Notebook movie with two gay characters where the romance is the main draw. I don’t need winks at the camera. 

Movies like In & Out, Chasing Amy, and Will & Grace were that way to make it less shocking. They bathed in their rainbow man. Ain’t shocking to be gay anymore. Just give me good romance and that’s it. 

 

Then again gay Quagmire does sound funny. 

[Here No Longer 5,270]

I thought I posted here, but I can't find the post. So here's my two cents.

Speaking as an LGBT myself, I honestly could care less whether a character is LGBT or not, as long as there is some context behind it that works and the representation feels meaningful, instead of putting in LGBT characters for the sake of doing it.

As for race, it's whatever the writer chooses it to be. Though, yes, it shouldn't get excessive with minorities without additional context, but otherwise it's whatever.

Edited March 8, 2019 by ~Dusky~

[Here No Longer 5,270]

4 minutes ago, Bas said:

Not sure about this. I mean, I can see your point about a character just being included because he is LGBT.

But I think a character could be LGBT without making any fuss about. This would make more people realize it is just one trait of many the character has, and not THE ONLY characteristic.

I agree with that. It's good to have characters that aren't just gay, because otherwise it feels like pandering to me. Part of what I mean by meaningful representation.

Nonetheless, I'd like it to have a little bit of relevance to the character themselves so it also feels like there's a reason for them to be written in as LGBT.

Edited March 9, 2019 by ~Dusky~

[Here No Longer 5,270]

12 minutes ago, Bas said:

You could also reverse the question. Is there any reason for them to be written as a hetero?

Normally it isn't specifically stated that a character is necessarily heterosexual, but instead it ends up being implied because of the fact that only roughly 10% of the population isn't straight.

If that weren't the case I'd see your point here. 

[Singe 2,109]

Under the definition of forced diversity, I tend to think it's when they are trying to ride on the coattails of something established like Riri Williams for Ironman. Then there are changes to established elements being rewritten and making it canon, like Star Wars Lando being attracted to robots.

Some have a problem of these good sided characters take the diversity to the point of acting like a villain or exhibit villain tendencies. Riri Williams as an example.

https://toysoldier.wordpress.com/2017/07/02/riri-williams-marvels-precious-little-sociopath/

Edited March 10, 2019 by Singe

[TBD 17,228]

22 hours ago, Singe said:

Some have a problem of these good sided characters take the diversity to the point of acting like a villain or exhibit villain tendencies. Riri Williams as an example.

https://toysoldier.wordpress.com/2017/07/02/riri-williams-marvels-precious-little-sociopath/

I never pick up Ironheart, but I don't think it's really a issue with heroes having a villain's traits since Riri is clearly not the first hero with that kind of trait. So I'm not sure why some people would pick on her and make a big deal about it for that reason. 

However, while reading more.....this here.

What's Marvel thinking?! I mean...this clearly begging for racism/sexism to happen. Oi vey...

 

[joanro 247]

I'm gonna kind of rant here, but here it goes;

Not to create a straw man here, but some of the things people are saying on here about gay people remind of when Christians say things like "Love the sinner, hate the sin," in regard to homosexuality. It's like what? The sin in question is apart of who that person is. Obviously, it isn't what solely defines the person, but it is apart of their identity whether you agree with it or not. Heterosexual people obviously don't have the problem of having to be public about their sexuality because it's generally assumed that people are straight. 

I think that if I was from another country and watched movies from the U.S., I would assume there were less minorities than there actually are. I remember people(on this forum) making a big deal about Black Panther and how the characters race should not matter. I would be lying if I said I wouldn't be excited about a Hispanic super hero, but Hollywood can't even give us a villain like Bane from Batman.

Edited March 12, 2019 by joanro

[TBD 17,228]

Here’s a good example of a “forced diversity”. Elsa. Although it has not confirmed yet, everyone goes about preaching that Elsa should have a girlfriend. Some already believes and label she is lesbian.  If they do make it happen that’s forced diversity.  When fans like that are pushing the writer to the direction they do not initially intend to include. Elsa is now being regonized as homo queen rather a queen who can control ice.

It’s not forced diversity when writers chooses by their own will.

[The Historian 515]

I am very much against the idea of forced diversity. I do not want to see "minority" characters shoved into a game, movie, TV show, book, whatever based on that single trait. It's a disservice to the work as a whole, a disservice to the audience and an even larger disservice to the people that character is meant to represent. I am a bisexual transwoman. I do not want to see poorly written or ham-handed depictions of what I am in any form of media. I would rather have no transgender characters than a shitload of terribly written ones. If the defining trait about a character is their minority aspect, that's a poorly written character shoehorned in for stupid diversity points.

If you want minority characters done well, Persona 4 has two shining examples: Kenji and Naoto. They are perfect examples of being a minority that make them both fantastic, well-written characters that are not forced. The Walking Dead by Telltale has excellent examples of "non-white" and "non-Asian" characters, and LA Noire uses race in an excellent way to color the world it presents.

Put simply, do what characters suit the world best, don't use token characters and do not force diversity for diversity's sake.

Edited March 14, 2019 by The Historian