Why hate Mary Sues?

[Jeric 46,837]

If created ironically or for some form of symbolism, a MS or GS would work, especially if you take the Pleasantville approach and evolve the Mary Sue.

[Silver Letter 1,830]

I agree because some important ponies are Mary sues. Am I the only one that thinks Twilight is a Mary sue? I mean, she is a princess, her brother is married to a princess, and she is Celestia's star pupil. 

Mary Sue characters are so perfect that they can't be challenged by anything. Princess Twilight Sparkle has a hard time with some issues with her personality and with her new role as a leader. She is not that type of character.

[Sir Wulfington 276]

@@Shenron00,

A flawless character who is never challenged. It is sometimes tossed around to mean an OP character, but this is BS. People usually use it to describe characters they don't like now (Twilicorn). but the true meaning is my first sentence 

 

Yeah, a character can be super godly powerful, so long as they're opponents are equally if not more powerful. It's when they literally curbstomp everyone and anything that opposes them that I lose interest in the story.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Sir Wulfington

[Hive King 1,998]

@@Sir Wulfington,

Even then, they can still be interesting. Maybe they're trying to deal with their growing lack of humanity, maybe they're looking for catharsis from years of pain.

 

The character has to be challenged in some way 

[Luximus 481]

umm......maybe if the OC has a character trait where it's like always perfect, then yeah.

[Castle Bleck 19,213]

Indeed; however, Superman did set a new defenition for Mary Sue/Gary Stu, when Superman Prime showed up. There's a reason he was used like once or twice.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ot-uvc8gkw

 

Oh, wait, that's Superboy Prime.

Edited August 10, 2014 by A.V.

[Zhortac 1,473]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ot-uvc8gkw

 

...Oh, wait, that's Superboy Prime...

 

Oh no, I meant Superman Prime. He's all golden, and basicaly fucking GOD. There's not a damn thing that can hurt him, he has the emotional level of a rock, and everyone hates him. They should slap a picture of his shiny golden ass, next to the defenition of mary sue.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Zhortac

[Pripyat Pony 2,608]

Mary Sues are always awful. Seriously, a Mary Sue can kill an RP dead in seconds, unless the GM steps in. I once was in a Resident Evil RP, which was mostly OCs, and this weirdo showed up with a character who was a beautiful witch with rainbow coloured eyes. Yes, in a Resident Evil RP. -.- We had a Hunter kill her, and zombies eat her body.

 

I've also seen loads of horrific Sues in fanfic which basically kill the story and make it really uninteresting. Oh yeah, and not all Sues are OCs either; there are plenty of awful fanfic writers who take an original character and warp them into a Mary Sue.

[Mephisto 56]

Flaws can make for interesting plot points and make an RP deeper. For instances, I once had a pegasus that couldn't fly, but in an RP he fell in love and she helped him learn to fly.

[Static Electricity 729]

Is water wet? Does fire burn? Does gravity pull things down? Is Jersey Shore an abomination worthy of destruction?

Edited April 28, 2014 by Static Electricity

[_Kurtis 636]

Well... they tend to be OP perfections. 

[Kay Dreamer 884]

"Perfect" however is relative.

I am one of the MANY people who have taken Mary Sue litmus tests using MYSELF as the subject, and come out as a "Mary Sue".

Either I don't exist, or people's standards on what a Sue is can very VERY subjective. I'm voting for the latter.

 

And here I thought I was just an aberration of reality! (Seriously though, nice to know I'm not the only non-celeb who failed that stupid test.)

 

As far as I'm concerned, I've been writing long enough to know that I am the best judge of whether or not my characters are Sues. I try to write them all with realistic personality flaws and weaknesses they find difficult to overcome. People are way to quick to judge characters on being Sues without actually peering in closer and seeing what makes that character tick. I may be outwardly charming, eloquent, empathetic, dress nicely and have artistic and musical talent, but I'm a bundle of hidden insecurities, I can be judgemental and I'm lazy. Among many other things. I still fail the Sue test though.

 

Though genuine, flawless, sparkly, OP'd Sue characters are immensely annoying. Same with nonsensically dark backstories which don't fit the canon of the world they're based in.

[Vivid Visions 837]

I can see how it would get annoying have a mary sue to RP with, since no one is perfect.

But other then being in a RP with them I really don' care. It's their OC, if they enjoy it, let them enjoy it. Its not harming me, and if I don't want to see it then I just don't look at it.

[Demirari 454]

Mary Sues. They are terrible and very uninteresting, I mean what is the point of reading a story if the Mary Sue solves everything in a second and everyone worships her? There wouldn't even be a plot in my opinion, no build up, just a flat instant, "I save the day!"

There are two types of characters that makes a story a story.

1: Dynamic. These characters in a RP/story change over the course of the RP or story. They are interesting and the best of all characters. They change like we do.

2: Static. I'll break this into two categories:

a. Normal Static: These characters stay this way for the sake of the plot. They aren't usually important and are side characters. Some may be interesting with their personalities.

b. Mary Sues/Gary Stues. These folks don't change and degrades stories/RPs.

 

In other words, a real Mary Sue will ruin a story. Unless the writer is bloody damn good.

[SkyStorm 334]

My OC used to be really Mary Sue, but that was mainly because i hadn't really bothered putting much time and effort into the back story or personality, but when I did RPs, my OC wasn't as Mary Sue as the profile made her seem, so really i think its more about what you RP then what you put on the profile 

[Revertz 159]

@@Shenron00,

No, Superman doesn't count because he is constantly challenged, by himself and other people. And flaws, not weaknesses. Mary Sues can have flaws, but they can't interfere with them and/or they will be cute(tripping into lover's arms) 

In my mind Super Man is very much a marysue i think the novel Jasper Jones puts it best and i quote.

 

“See, Batman is different. He's mortal. He's got a real life to risk. Superman just has to avoid Kryptonite. Big deal. Superman fears nothing because outside a few very specific circumstances where he might encounter some stupid rock, nothing can possibly do him in. Batman has the same vulnerabilities as the rest of us, so he has the same fears as us. That's why he's the most courageous: because he can put those aside and fight on regardless. My point is this: the more you have to lose, the braver you re for standing up. That's why Batman is superior to Superman, and that's why I am infinitely smarter then you.'

I am a genius. I have won.

'Pffft! Whatever. I'll bet Batman won't be too loud about his superiority when Superman is belting seven shades of shit out of him.” 

― Craig Silvey, Jasper Jones

[DryGuy84 (Inactive) 927]

In my mind Super Man is very much a marysue i think the novel Jasper Jones puts it best and i quote.

 

“See, Batman is different. He's mortal. He's got a real life to risk. Superman just has to avoid Kryptonite. Big deal. Superman fears nothing because outside a few very specific circumstances where he might encounter some stupid rock, nothing can possibly do him in. Batman has the same vulnerabilities as the rest of us, so he has the same fears as us. That's why he's the most courageous: because he can put those aside and fight on regardless. My point is this: the more you have to lose, the braver you re for standing up. That's why Batman is superior to Superman, and that's why I am infinitely smarter then you.'

I am a genius. I have won.

'Pffft! Whatever. I'll bet Batman won't be too loud about his superiority when Superman is belting seven shades of shit out of him.” 

― Craig Silvey, Jasper Jones

 

1. Superman has been toned dow power-wise in recent years.

2. Supes was killed by Doomsday, no kryptonite involved.

3. He is susceptible to magic, so Black Adam, for example, could kill him.

4. Several comic books have shown possible scenarios in which Supes struggles with his sanity.

5. He is very hesitant to kill, allowing some villains (Lex Luthor, Zod, etc.) to exploit this.

6. His love interest, Lois Lane, is often put in danger to present him with a dilemma, mess with his mind, or otherwise.

7. Superman has occasional struggles with his values vs. the law.

 

All of these are challenges set in motion by the world around him. He has flaws, he has physical weaknesses, so he is not a Mary Sue/Gary Stu. This is coming from someone who prefers Batman to Superman. 

Edited April 30, 2014 by DryColt84

[Revertz 159]

1. Superman has been toned dow power-wise in recent years.

2. Supes was killed by Doomsday, no kryptonite involved.

3. He is susceptible to magic, so Black Adam, for example could kill him.

4. Several comic books have shown possible scenarios in which Supes struggles with his sanity.

5. He is very hesitant to kill, allowing some villains (Lex Luthor, Zod, etc.) to exploit this.

6. His love interest, Lois Lane, is often put in danger to present him with a dilemma, mess with his mind, or otherwise.

7. Superman has occasional struggles with his values vs. the law.

 

All of these are challenges set in motion by the world around him. He has flaws, he has physical weaknesses, so he is not a Mary Sue/Gary Stu. This is coming from someone who prefers Batman to Superman. 

that being i still never found him interesting as a SuperHero. i do agree he has been toned down in recent years, but what i'm talking about is more along the lines of him being indestructible 

 

 

 

 

 

Iron Giant will always be the best man of Steel.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2014 by Revertz

[DryGuy84 (Inactive) 927]

that being i still never found him interesting as a SuperHero. i do agree he has been toned down in recent years, but what i'm talking about is more along the lines of him being indestructible 

 

 

 

 

 

Iron Giant will always be the best man of Steel.

 

 

 

 

 

That's fine. Not liking Superman is understandable, but he is not a Gary Stu, and is not indestructable. I love Iron Giant btw, it's just so well written and heartfelt...that ending, man....the feels. 

[Diamond Lust 8]

Mmmm... A topic I can sink my teeth in!

Now, first thing that I feel I should shed some light on after reading the comments is that Twilight Sparkle is in no way a Mary Sue.

She has to overcome her shortcomings raging from lack of confidence to ignorance-borne quasi-racism, from not understanding social paradigms to inability of accepting something she cannot explain. (I know that sentence was not fully correct, but I felt that adding a couple more examples would illustrate my point better ^^ )

Tartarus, the whole show is about her (and others) learning how the world works, in a sense - something a Mary Sue would be perfect about from the get-go!

 

Now, I've been an RP moderator in the past, and I've seen my fair share of Mary Sue OC submission, and I can tell you that, for the most part, the characters are created from either a lack of imagination, or from the desire to be better than anypony. Hence, with the possible exception of one or two, all Mary Sue characters are terrible, either in writing, or execution.

 

...Just my two bits ^^;

[IlikeBoris 13]

Superman started out as a Mary-Sue.  They had to invent Kryptonite to make it possible for him to lose, otherwise it would have gotten uninteresting.  I'm sure there have been other tweaks along the way.

 

Litmus tests are pretty much a list of traits that you need to examine when making a character.  Actually ticking off boxes and comparing the score doesn't do very much.  I'm tempted to create my own litmus test which has essay questions about certain "trigger traits" and advice to remove any traits where the answer involves "cool" or "interesting."

 

I dance around a few different definitions of Mary-Sues, some of which really apply to Inserts.  (I would say self-insert, but I either try to distill my traits or create a seperate character.)  I write for a different fandom, but many of my Insert characters have a weird blend of Mary-Sue powers and pathetic weaknesses.  (One of my Inserts just had the unbreakble charisma, another only created a field where the universe's rules about destiny didn't work right.  One of the Inserts didn't have any powers except that a trickster spirit made her attractive and forced a character to interact with her.)

 

I am cooking a chapter of Self-Insert-Authoress-Tripe where some of the cast find themselves suddenly transported to Ponyville, but the warning label is clear and I try to make it interesting.  (That one is blatantly almost on the same level as Discord, except that making random events uninteresting damages her.)

[Venomous 18,820]

I wouldn't call Mary Sue OCs "terrible". I would just say they they are annoying.

[Archer Dash 163]

You have your opinion, and i have mine. I hate ocs that are edgy. I also haAAAAAAAAAAAAAAte CanonxOC. Sweet filly Celestia, that's annoying.

I'd be fine with that if the OC was well developed and didn't feel like the writer was performing wish fulfillment... never seen that done well though. D:

[Lightning Bliss 1,674]

Well personally to be clear on the word "Mary Sue" implies that a OC or characters is perfect in every way it's been established, with little to no flaws.

 

I find that a character without flaws tends to be boring, or over barring or OP etc etc. An OC with flaws makes him/her more realistic and easy to relate to.

[Malinter 3,064]

As avatars no. In stories yes